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royr17
10-05-2004, 11:26 PM
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/7770262

Now on board, Chiefs building winning defense on the run
Oct. 5, 2004
By Clark Judge

The Kansas City Chiefs accomplished the improbable this week, and I'm not talking about just beating Baltimore. I'm talking about beating Baltimore by calling on their maligned defense for the save.

Make no mistake, Trent Green, Priest Holmes and a rejuvenated offense take the curtain call for Monday's 27-24 victory, but scoring points hasn't been a problem in Kansas City until this season. Stopping opposing running backs has, and for the second straight week Kansas City applied the handcuffs.

Jamal Lewis didn't beat them Monday, just as Domanick Davis didn't beat them the week before -- and, suddenly, last year's 29th-ranked defense is twice as good, moving up to 14th in this week's standings.

So now here's the question: Have defensive coordinator Gunther Cunningham and his unit turned the corner, or do the Chiefs look good because they played low-scoring offenses?

Neither. The Chiefs are a work in progress, and Monday's victory was noteworthy because it was achieved with two starters -- linebacker Scott Fujita and defensive tackle Ryan Sims -- sidelined in the second half. Give Kansas City credit: It bottled up a premier back, but the Chiefs' most effective defense was an offense that ran nearly twice as many plays as Baltimore.

That's not to diminish the achievement. But Baltimore's 25th-ranked offense averaged as many yards per play (5) as Kansas City. The only difference was it had 41 snaps; the Chiefs had 78.

The key here was that the Chiefs did not allow Lewis to beat them. After gaining 18 yards on his opening carry, he never ran for more than 10 yards -- which he did once -- and wound up with 73 yards. The week before the Chiefs played Houston -- a club with the league's 10th-ranked offense -- and stuffed Davis, holding him to a season-low 12 yards.

So there's a trend beginning to take shape here, just as there was a trend before when an opposing back ran for 100 yards in eight of their last 10 starts. And now the Chiefs feel so good about themselves that Cunningham, his players and coach Dick Vermeil honest-to-God believed that Lewis would not beat them Monday.

In fact, shortly before the Chiefs left for Baltimore on the team charter Sunday, Cunningham walked back to the players' section of the plane, stood on a seat and delivered an emotional speech.

"I wanted to get on the intercom, but I decided not to," he said. "I said, 'Look, anyone who's scared get off the plane, and get off the plane now!' They all started laughing and screaming, and I knew right then and there we were going to play hard."

The Chiefs caved only once in the second half, on a 65-yard Ravens' drive in the fourth quarter -- with Baltimore scoring on a 1-yard Lewis run. But look a little closer, folks: The TD was set up by a controversial pass interference call on a pass thrown out of the end zone, and a subsequent interception was nullified by a holding call.

When it was over, Baltimore had no first downs on four of its 10 series and no more than one on eight of its last nine.

"We're taking shots for growing pains," said Cunningham. "How can you berate these guys? They've given everything they have to try to build this thing the right way. We could have done things differently. There are some teams that all-out blitzed in the first game and won, but now they're near last in team defense.

"We decided we're going to build this thing the right way, with a foundation. We're going to take our lumps early, but we're going to get better one game at a time. The players bought into that, and I like it."

He should. So should the Chiefs' organization. While Kansas City is a disappointment at 1-3, the Chiefs have something to work with now. It's a victory, and it's a victory achieved with the help of a defense that might, just might, be settling down for the first time in years. I guess we find out Oct. 31 when the Chiefs host Indianapolis.

"This was critical," defensive tackle Lional Dalton said of the victory. "You don't see many 0-4 teams going to the playoffs. This could be just like sacks: When you get one they come in bunches. Hopefully, we can build on this, momentum will swing our way and we can win four or five in a row."

royr17
10-05-2004, 11:27 PM
Didnt see it posted anywhere so i though id post it.

tk13
10-05-2004, 11:35 PM
That's an interesting point about blitzing. I'm guessing Gunther is talking about somebody like the Packers with that blitzing comment....

Frazod
10-05-2004, 11:36 PM
Nice article. :thumb:

Manila-Chief
10-05-2004, 11:44 PM
Thanks Roy!!! (Sorry TK ... trying to give you credit for something you didn't do ... but my bet is you would have ..... you are that kind of a guy.....)

I think they are building a strong D. To me it seems Holiday getting hurt was the best thing for this D.

I know Gun can coach but I was concerned that this bunch may have been too far gone and he would have to start over. Course Getting Dalton into the line up has really helped.

Now, I need to caution myself. When we do it against the next 5 oppoents then I'll look for a S.B. victory!!!

I agree with Clarke ... getting our O into high gear was as important as what the D did!!!!

Is our D really up to 14th.? If we can hold that we will be a force in the say for a playoff berth.

tk13
10-05-2004, 11:54 PM
Why are you thanking me for? :spock:

ENDelt260
10-05-2004, 11:54 PM
Why are you thanking me for? :spock:
It's late... and article got posted... I could see how someone might think you're responsible.

Ultra Peanut
10-06-2004, 12:27 AM
If you were a woman, I'd slug you.

ENDelt260
10-06-2004, 12:28 AM
If you were a woman, I'd slug you.
Shut that c*nt's mouth before I come over there and f*ckstart her head!

royr17
10-06-2004, 01:07 AM
I find that very interesting of what gunther said the defense though. I tell you i love that type of attitude though.

Let me say by week 9 this defense I think this defense could turn into a real force and thats what i love to see.

Pants
10-06-2004, 01:16 AM
Roy, thank you for Warfield's performance so much. Oh yeah, the article was awesome too.

royr17
10-06-2004, 01:21 AM
Man warfield is just looking awesome this year isnt he. Hell yeah.

Redcoats58
10-06-2004, 04:48 AM
Man warfield is just looking awesome this year isnt he. Hell yeah.
He does look awesome, lets just hope they don't send him to jail at a crucial time.

InChiefsHell
10-06-2004, 06:26 AM
NFL.com, stats, Total Defense, the Chiefs have gone from 28 after week 1 to 14.

Woohoo!! Stop the world baby!! We're getting better every week, and after the bye-week, I bet we come out even stronger...

philfree
10-06-2004, 07:01 AM
In fact, shortly before the Chiefs left for Baltimore on the team charter Sunday, Cunningham walked back to the players' section of the plane, stood on a seat and delivered an emotional speech.

"I wanted to get on the intercom, but I decided not to," he said. "I said, 'Look, anyone who's scared get off the plane, and get off the plane now!' They all started laughing and screaming, and I knew right then and there we were going to play hard."


:clap: O.K. how come we don't have an icon for Gun? If anyone with the Chiefs deserves his own smilie it's Gun because he is sort of an icon in KC.

PhilFree :arrow:

Chiefnj
10-06-2004, 07:29 AM
The Chiefs defense is getting better but I think people are getting a little carried away. Didn't D. Davis go out with an injury early in the 3rd quarter? Didn't Billick abandon the run in the 2nd half? It's hard to let a runner beat you when they aren't on the field or aren't getting the ball. The defense isn't missing as many tackles, the linebackers are in position, the DL is getting pressure and Warfield is having a career year; all of that is great. But, I'll feel a lot better if they can hold their own against the Falcons, Colts and Pats. Until the Chiefs can go .500 against playoff teams the Super Bowl is far off.

donkhater
10-06-2004, 07:37 AM
Is our D really up to 14th.? If we can hold that we will be a force in the say for a playoff berth.

We'll be a force when we can hold that position against a good offenses getting 50-60 snaps a game.

KingPriest2
10-06-2004, 07:42 AM
The Chiefs defense is getting better but I think people are getting a little carried away. Didn't D. Davis go out with an injury early in the 3rd quarter? Didn't Billick abandon the run in the 2nd half? It's hard to let a runner beat you when they aren't on the field or aren't getting the ball. The defense isn't missing as many tackles, the linebackers are in position, the DL is getting pressure and Warfield is having a career year; all of that is great. But, I'll feel a lot better if they can hold their own against the Falcons, Colts and Pats. Until the Chiefs can go .500 against playoff teams the Super Bowl is far off.


No Jamal was running hin the 4th it was not until the last 4 minutes they changed.

Lzen
10-06-2004, 07:46 AM
The Chiefs defense is getting better but I think people are getting a little carried away. Didn't D. Davis go out with an injury early in the 3rd quarter? Didn't Billick abandon the run in the 2nd half? It's hard to let a runner beat you when they aren't on the field or aren't getting the ball. The defense isn't missing as many tackles, the linebackers are in position, the DL is getting pressure and Warfield is having a career year; all of that is great. But, I'll feel a lot better if they can hold their own against the Falcons, Colts and Pats. Until the Chiefs can go .500 against playoff teams the Super Bowl is far off.

You're such a buzzkill. :shake:



But you're right. We're still something like 29th in points allowed. So that still needs a lot of work. So does the average yards per rush. Jamal Lewis had something between 4 and 5 yards per carry. That's still too much. But the point of the article is that they are building. They are getting better every game. That's why there is reason to have faith. :thumb:

jspchief
10-06-2004, 07:47 AM
No Jamal was running hin the 4th it was not until the last 4 minutes they changed.

Lewis averaged nearly 5 yards a carry, which is damn good for a RB. They only gave him the ball 15 times. The only one stopping Lewis was their Offensive coordinator.

philfree
10-06-2004, 07:49 AM
The Chiefs defense is getting better but I think people are getting a little carried away. Didn't D. Davis go out with an injury early in the 3rd quarter? Didn't Billick abandon the run in the 2nd half?

The thing that was so impressive about our D in Baltimore is we stopped their strength. The Ravens have the most physical running game in the NFL. We stuffed it. Billick didn't abandon the run as much as we forced them into passing situations on 2nd and 3rd down. As much as we had the ball the D did show the ability to get off the field. A well balanced O will no doubt give us more problems but our fear of stopping the run should be gone which should allow our secondary to cover better. I'm excited about it!


PhilFree :arrow:

philfree
10-06-2004, 07:58 AM
Lewis averaged nearly 5 yards a carry,

He had 18 yards on the first play from scrimmage and then he had one more carry of 10 yards. 28 yards on 2 carry's. For the other 13 carries he was just under 4 yards a carry. That's pretty good agaisnt a bulldozer with a jaguar engine IMO.

PhilFree :arrow:

ROYC75
10-06-2004, 08:11 AM
Lewis averaged nearly 5 yards a carry, which is damn good for a RB. They only gave him the ball 15 times. The only one stopping Lewis was their Offensive coordinator.


BINGO ..........


Now double this like a normal game for Baltimore.

OK, we controlled the clock with our drives, But Baltimore got away with what they are good at.....smash mouth running.... But..... what if they had stayed with the run, 5 yards avg. per carry is enough to move the chains, often on most drives. Sure a stop here or there, but handing it off 3 straight times will get alot of 1st downs.

Baltimore could have taken some of that time away if it had stayed the course of their strenght. But no, they tried to let Boller pass it around.

Now let's keep it in place here too, KC did make some critical 3rd down stops. Much credit goes here for stepping up, but some of those were pass plays,need I remind you it was Boller who was passing the rock.

As much as many of the fans want to think the defense has turned the corner, it's just as much Baltimore inability to continue running the ball.......which leads to the offensive playcalling.

Like Gaz once said...... Baby steps ! Thats all we have taken so far, this defense is no way, no how a top 15 defense in the NFL. Only for the time being against weaker offense.

ROYC75
10-06-2004, 08:30 AM
Lewis averaged nearly 5 yards a carry, which is damn good for a RB. They only gave him the ball 15 times. The only one stopping Lewis was their Offensive coordinator.


BINGO ..........


Now double this like a normal game for Baltimore.

OK, we controlled the clock with our drives, But Baltimore got away with what they are good at.....smash mouth running.... But..... what if they had stayed with the run, 5 yards avg. per carry is enough to move the chains, often on most drives. Sure a stop here or there, but handing it off 3 straight times will get alot of 1st downs.

Baltimore could have taken some of that time away if it had stayed the course of their strenght. But no, they tried to let Boller pass it around.

Now let's keep it in place here too, KC did make some critical 3rd down stops. Much credit goes here for stepping up, but some of those were pass plays,need I remind you it was Boller who was passing the rock.

As much as many of the fans want to think the defense has turned the corner, it's just as much Baltimore inability to continue running the ball.......which leads to the offensive playcalling.

Like Gaz once said...... Baby steps ! Thats all we have taken so far, this defense is no way, no how a top 15 defense in the NFL. Only for the time being against weaker offense.

milkman
10-06-2004, 09:13 AM
He had 18 yards on the first play from scrimmage and then he had one more carry of 10 yards. 28 yards on 2 carry's. For the other 13 carries he was just under 4 yards a carry. That's pretty good agaisnt a bulldozer with a jaguar engine IMO.

PhilFree :arrow:

There it is.
When you watch that game, the Chiefs really bottled up Lewis from the middle of the first Qtr through the 4th Qtr.

The Ravens didn't go 3 and out on 3 consecutive drives because they didn't give the ball to Lewis.

They did hand it to him, but the Chiefs held him in check, forcing the Ravens into 3rd and long situations.

Lzen
10-06-2004, 09:17 AM
He had 18 yards on the first play from scrimmage and then he had one more carry of 10 yards. 28 yards on 2 carry's. For the other 13 carries he was just under 4 yards a carry. That's pretty good agaisnt a bulldozer with a jaguar engine IMO.

PhilFree :arrow:


Good points. I was gonna bring that up, as well. :thumb: At least these one or two big gains a game they are giving up aren't 30, 40, or even 70 yard runs like in the first 2 games.

Lzen
10-06-2004, 09:18 AM
.....this defense is no way, no how a top 15 defense in the NFL. Only for the time being against weaker offense.

Not until they put Rich Scanlon in at MLB, right? :D

Dick Bull
10-06-2004, 09:18 AM
BINGO ..........


Now double this like a normal game for Baltimore.

OK, we controlled the clock with our drives, But Baltimore got away with what they are good at.....smash mouth running.... But..... what if they had stayed with the run, 5 yards avg. per carry is enough to move the chains, often on most drives. Sure a stop here or there, but handing it off 3 straight times will get alot of 1st downs.

Baltimore could have taken some of that time away if it had stayed the course of their strenght. But no, they tried to let Boller pass it around.

Now let's keep it in place here too, KC did make some critical 3rd down stops. Much credit goes here for stepping up, but some of those were pass plays,need I remind you it was Boller who was passing the rock.

As much as many of the fans want to think the defense has turned the corner, it's just as much Baltimore inability to continue running the ball.......which leads to the offensive playcalling.

Like Gaz once said...... Baby steps ! Thats all we have taken so far, this defense is no way, no how a top 15 defense in the NFL. Only for the time being against weaker offense.


No, you could say they aren't a top 15 defense if they only played one game. They played 4, a quarter of a season, and that's where they are. Whether or not they stay there is another thing, but I'm hoping they keep going up.

ROYC75
10-06-2004, 09:31 AM
Not until they put Rich Scanlon in at MLB, right? :D


Don't go there........ BTW, did you see the DV comment about bring up on of the young LB's for the ST's ? Then added in the addition of a healthy Fox could help out.

Wonder if he was thinking Rich on this comment ?

Chiefnj
10-06-2004, 09:31 AM
[QUOTE=milkman]
When you watch that game, the Chiefs really bottled up Lewis from the middle of the first Qtr through the 4th Qtr.
[QUOTE]

That's not true. Early in the 4th quarter, on the only drive where the Ravens consistently gave Lewis the ball, he was given the ball 6 times. His carries were:

1. 7 yards.
2. 6 yards.
3. 10 yards.
4. 7 yards. (Note the above 4 carries were consecutive.)
5. 7 yards.
6. 1 yard TD run.

ROYC75
10-06-2004, 09:37 AM
Here is DV comments on ST's play...... He doesn't mention the name, unless he is leading to it in the 2nd part of the sentence.

“Our special teams, especially our coverage teams, were poor. We’ve worked on it enough to be better. They weren’t at the tempo with everybody else, so we have to evaluate that. We also have to consider a young linebacker that maybe we should bring up. We’ve got (Keyeron) Fox healthy now, so maybe we ought to get him up cause some guys aren’t getting it done.

He could be talking about Fox in both lines....hard to tell about DV.

As for Rich on ST's....I wish they would, he makes tackles, something alot of our guys do not do !

milkman
10-06-2004, 09:37 AM
[QUOTE=milkman]
When you watch that game, the Chiefs really bottled up Lewis from the middle of the first Qtr through the 4th Qtr.
[QUOTE]

That's not true. Early in the 4th quarter, on the only drive where the Ravens consistently gave Lewis the ball, he was given the ball 6 times. His carries were:

1. 7 yards.
2. 6 yards.
3. 10 yards.
4. 7 yards. (Note the above 4 carries were consecutive.)
5. 7 yards.
6. 1 yard TD run.

You're right, and I mean't to say through the 3rd qtr, thinking about that 4th qtr drive.
I didn't catch my mistake.

But those 4th qtr carries are less than half of his carries in the game.
That means that he had 11 carries prior to that for less than 40 yards, one of which was 18 yards, his first carry.
Take that away, after his first carry, he had 10 runs for about 20 yards, until the 4th qtr.

I'll take that effort from our D against any back.

Douche Baggins
10-06-2004, 09:49 AM
Jason Dunn avatar for anyone that wants it:

http://img8.exs.cx/img8/3818/Dunn.gif

Chiefnj
10-06-2004, 09:49 AM
I always like the "take away his biggest carries" and our defense did really well argument. All of the carries count.

The D is improving, but I still contend that it was Billick who kept Lewis in check more than the Chiefs D.

InChiefsHell
10-06-2004, 09:54 AM
LIkewise, I always like the "Our defense had nothing to do with it, Billick just took Jamal out of the game because he was so effective..." argument...

The D looks better and better every week. We'll see how well it looks after the bye...

milkman
10-06-2004, 09:56 AM
You can call it what you want, but those numbers show that the Chiefs D bottled up Lewis for most of the first 3 qtrs, putting the Ravens in 3rd and long situations.

Billick didn't take Lewis out of the game.
The Chiefs D did by putting the Ravens in passing situations.

Also, when you look at the numbers, those 15 carries, along with Taylors 2 or 3 carries make up about 40% of the Ravens total plays.

Douche Baggins
10-06-2004, 09:57 AM
Billick didn't take Lewis out of the game.
The Chiefs D did by putting the Ravens in passing situations.


Thankyou!

jspchief
10-06-2004, 09:58 AM
Here is DV comments on ST's play...... He doesn't mention the name, unless he is leading to it in the 2nd part of the sentence.



He could be talking about Fox in both lines....hard to tell about DV.

As for Rich on ST's....I wish they would, he makes tackles, something alot of our guys do not do !

Your'e trying to say ignore all the long runs and look at the short ones. I could say just the opposite. That's why average yards per carry is a significant stat. They aren't all going to be 18 yard runs, but they aren't all 1 yard runs either.

Lewis averaged 2.9 and 2.6 against CLE and PIT, respectively. That's shutting him down.

I'm not saying our D isn't improving, because I believe it is. But to claim some great defensive victory after holding a RB to 4.9 yds/pc is stretching it a little.

Frosty
10-06-2004, 10:03 AM
I find it amazing that people aren't giving the defense more credit for this win. Solomon Wilcotts, on Total Access, said Monday night that the win was because the defense didn't have to play much.

Well, who kept forcing the three and outs? The Ravens didn't just kneel down three times and punt.

The one effective drive that the Ravens had in the 4th quarter, I had the impression that the Chiefs were in a kind of a prevent defense. Still, without the bogus pass interference call, the Ravens would have been held to a FG.

milkman
10-06-2004, 10:05 AM
Your'e trying to say ignore all the long runs and look at the short ones. I could say just the opposite. That's why average yards per carry is a significant stat. They aren't all going to be 18 yard runs, but they aren't all 1 yard runs either.

Lewis averaged 2.9 and 2.6 against CLE and PIT, respectively. That's shutting him down.

I'm not saying our D isn't improving, because I believe it is. But to claim some great defensive victory after holding a RB to 4.9 yds/pc is stretching it a little.

I'm not trying to claim that it was a great defensive victory.
I'm trying to make the point that the D is clearly showing improvement.

I don't expect this D to contain any RB for an entire game.
But if they can get the same kind of effort in every game, that is minimizing the long runs to under 25-30 yards, and no more than 1 or 2 of those a game, and forcing teams into 3rd and long in several drives, forcing punts, then this team has a chance to win a few games.

Let me add that the O has to perform as well.

The D will perform better if the O is putting up points and controlling the clock.

ARROW2
10-06-2004, 10:12 AM
He got shut down. You can spin the stats any way you want to. Go by what your eyes tell you. Like stated earlier, they tried to run during the meat of the game, and couldn't. I saw drives last year against our D, even after the offense sustained a long drive themselves. Can't win for losing. I like the spin doctors trying to take credit away from the D. We also had 4 sacks.

ARROW2
10-06-2004, 10:13 AM
Why don't we just tell the offense to kneel three times so we can test the D. (rolls eyes)

Chiefnj
10-06-2004, 10:15 AM
Billick didn't take Lewis out of the game.
The Chiefs D did by putting the Ravens in passing situations.

That is not completely true. The Ravens committed penalties on first down putting them in passing situations and even when it was 1st and 10 they were often throwing the ball (or trying to) anyway.

It was a very good game for the defense, especially when you consider how poorly ST's were and the Ravens field position. I just don't think they've solved their run defense problems yet particularly when a runner just averaged 4.9 ypc against you.

go bowe
10-06-2004, 10:16 AM
Not until they put Rich Scanlon in at MLB, right? :D:clap: ROFL ROFL ROFL

Gaz
10-06-2004, 10:21 AM
Holding one of the best RBs in the NFL to 73 yards is certainly a victory for the Defense. Go back and look at the folks on this BB who were predicting a new single game rushing record.

Factor in the lousy Special Teams giving the Ravens great field position, and you must give kudos to the Defense. They were in position, tackled well, defended a short field and stopped The Enemy on the final drive when the Offense failed to run out the clock.

Gunther’s scheme is now a grand total of [4] games old and has shown serious improvement in a short amount of time.

It certainly helped that the Offense finally showed up for a game.

xoxo~
Gaz
Quite impressed with the learning curve.

go bowe
10-06-2004, 10:22 AM
That is not completely true. The Ravens committed penalties on first down putting them in passing situations and even when it was 1st and 10 they were often throwing the ball (or trying to) anyway.

It was a very good game for the defense, especially when you consider how poorly ST's were and the Ravens field position. I just don't think they've solved their run defense problems yet particularly when a runner just averaged 4.9 ypc against you.ypc, yeah...

but what i was happiest about is that the d did make some stops and forced punts...

remember the indy game?

Coach
10-06-2004, 10:23 AM
I think it has to do with the difference, that Gunther had the balls to blitz on the last play of the game, not too many other coaches would have. He decided that we were going to go down with our best effort instead of sitting back and watching things happen. The result? A W.

Gaz
10-06-2004, 10:26 AM
That is not completely true. The Ravens committed penalties on first down putting them in passing situations and even when it was 1st and 10 they were often throwing the ball (or trying to) anyway.

It was a very good game for the defense, especially when you consider how poorly ST's were and the Ravens field position. I just don't think they've solved their run defense problems yet particularly when a runner just averaged 4.9 ypc against you.

The Ravens were throwing on first down because the Chiefs Defense was keying on Lewis. You are trying to make it look as if the Ravens frivolously decided to put the game on Boller instead of Lewis. That is patently absurd. The Chiefs Defense dedicated themselves to stopping Lewis and they did so. The Ravens tried to take advantage of that situation and failed.

xoxo~
Gaz
Giving The Enemy credit for a couple of brain cells.

Lzen
10-06-2004, 10:28 AM
The Ravens were throwing on first down because the Chiefs Defense was keying on Lewis. You are trying to make it look as if the Ravens frivolously decided to put the game on Boller instead of Lewis. That is patently absurd. The Chiefs Defense dedicated themselves to stopping Lewis and they did so. The Ravens tried to take advantage of that situation and failed.

xoxo~
Gaz
Giving The Enemy credit for a couple of brain cells.


:thumb:

jspchief
10-06-2004, 10:28 AM
Baltimore had 8 3rd down attempts.


2 were late in the fourth during obvious passing situations (BAL had abandoned the run for lack of time).
1 was run, run, pass (3rd and long)
1 was run, run, pass (3rd and short)
1 was a busted reverse then 2 passes (3rd & long)
2 were pass, pass, run (3rd & long)
1 was 3rd & goaline that was pass, run, pass

So out of the 8 first down attempts, we forced 7 third and longs. Take out the two when BAL was in pass only mode, and we forced 5 third and longs. Of those five, only one contained more than one running play. Our run defense only forced third and long once. They may have stuffed the first run, but Baltimore didn't try a second run in all but one of those situations.

If you want to look at KC's offense when it was struggling this year, you'll see the same pattern. First run is for a short gain. If you then abandon the run, the drive stalls. If you run a second time,the drive is much more likely to succeed. Saunders was guilty of it in the first two games we played and our O suffered for it.

Gaz
10-06-2004, 10:33 AM
Baltimore didn’t try a second run because the Chiefs Defense was playing the run.

Squigle and squirm all you want. The Chiefs D held Lewis to 73 yards for the entire game. That is an accomplishment worthy of praise.

xoxo~
Gaz
Conversing with a stone.

jspchief
10-06-2004, 10:33 AM
You are trying to make it look as if the Ravens frivolously decided to put the game on Boller instead of Lewis. That is patently absurd.

Absurd? Yes. Hard to imagine? Not really. Just look at the way Al Saunders did it in our first two games. We all know that Holmes needs to get the carries, but Saunders shied away from that in the first two games. Was it because they shut down the run? Most people in here were saying Holmes should've received more carries.

jspchief
10-06-2004, 10:34 AM
Baltimore didn’t try a second run because the Chiefs Defense was playing the run.

Squigle and squirm all you want. The Chiefs D held Lewis to 73 yards for the entire game. That is an accomplishment worthy of praise.

xoxo~
Gaz
Conversing with a stone.


Praise it all you want. If we give up 5 ypc all year we won't have the 14th ranked run D for long.

Gaz
10-06-2004, 10:35 AM
Absurd.

Just give it up for the D and get it over with.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not sure why that has to be such a chore.

Douche Baggins
10-06-2004, 10:36 AM
Praise it all you want. If we give up 5 ypc all year we won't have the 14th ranked run D for long.

We will if we only surrender 76 yards rushing.

lurker king
10-06-2004, 10:41 AM
If the D can hold every runner to under 100 yds, then it has to be said that Gunther came in did his job.

jspchief
10-06-2004, 10:44 AM
I've said all along that I think the run D is improving. But I would use the Houston game to back the arguement, not the Baltimore game.

Billick and his O-coordinator called a bad game. He put the game in the hands of a bad QB instead of a good RB. I'd be more inclined to say our O forced that on them than our D did.

Say our run D shut him down all you want. Just don't forget the one drive that they committed to the run, they walked it down and scored.

Douche Baggins
10-06-2004, 10:47 AM
I've said all along that I think the run D is improving. But I would use the Houston game to back the arguement, not the Baltimore game.

Billick and his O-coordinator called a bad game. He put the game in the hands of a bad QB instead of a good RB. I'd be more inclined to say our O forced that on them than our D did.

Say our run D shut him down all you want. Just don't forget the one drive that they committed to the run, they walked it down and scored.

That's because we were not as fresh in the 4th quarter, therefore we allowed them significant gains on first down. Unlike before, when we were stuffing the run on first down.

Gaz
10-06-2004, 10:47 AM
“Walked it down”

Nonsense.

No Defense can stop every Offense every time. That is just as absurd as implying that Billick is so stupid that he forgot he had Jamal Lewis in the backfield.

The Chiefs Defense held one of the best RBs in the NFL to 73 yards. For all your “yeah but” and statistic-mangling, that is an accomplishment.

xoxo~
Gaz
Amused.

Chiefnj
10-06-2004, 10:49 AM
The Ravens were throwing on first down because the Chiefs Defense was keying on Lewis. You are trying to make it look as if the Ravens frivolously decided to put the game on Boller instead of Lewis. That is patently absurd. The Chiefs Defense dedicated themselves to stopping Lewis and they did so. The Ravens tried to take advantage of that situation and failed.

xoxo~
Gaz
Giving The Enemy credit for a couple of brain cells.


IMO the Ravens did frivolously put the game on Boller and not Lewis. It's a good thing. You mean to tell me the Chiefs weren't focussing on Lewis early in the 4th when he got the ball 6 times on a TD drive and he ran for more than 6 yards on every carry (except the 1 yard TD run)? They weren't able to stop him on that drive and I fear that had Billick run Lewis on their final drive a similar problem would have occurred.

PastorMikH
10-06-2004, 10:50 AM
but the Chiefs' most effective defense was an offense that ran nearly twice as many plays as Baltimore.


From my count, their offense had the ball for 10 series, ours had it for 11. I would like to submit the arguement that their offense had the ball for one less opportunity to move the ball, but thanks to our D, were forced to 3 three-and-outs as well as 3 more stops could have something to do with how much time the Ravens O had the ball. If our D had not made those stops, their O would have had the ball longer.

milkman
10-06-2004, 10:52 AM
I'm not going to debate this issue any longer.

The fact is, in the last 2 weeks, the D hasn't allowed a "career day".

go bowe
10-06-2004, 10:53 AM
From my count, their offense had the ball for 10 series, ours had it for 11. I would like to submit the arguement that their offense had the ball for one less opportunity to move the ball, but thanks to our D, were forced to 3 three-and-outs as well as 3 more stops could have something to do with how much time the Ravens O had the ball. If our D had not made those stops, their O would have had the ball longer.yep... :thumb:

jspchief
10-06-2004, 10:55 AM
So did we give Holmes enough carries in the Carolina game? He only ran the ball 16 times. Did they shut him down?

IMO we should given him the ball more. Of course, there's no way that Saunders forgot about him. Maybe it was because Green was throwing the ball so well. Vermeil even said they gave up on the run when they shouldn't have. But that's impossible. It's absurd that any offensive coordinator would abandon the run when he shouldn't have. It's never happened in the NFL.

Calcountry
10-06-2004, 10:56 AM
The thing that was so impressive about our D in Baltimore is we stopped their strength. The Ravens have the most physical running game in the NFL. We stuffed it. Billick didn't abandon the run as much as we forced them into passing situations on 2nd and 3rd down. As much as we had the ball the D did show the ability to get off the field. A well balanced O will no doubt give us more problems but our fear of stopping the run should be gone which should allow our secondary to cover better. I'm excited about it!


PhilFree :arrow:
Billicks own words were, "The Chiefs were more physical".

That is a far cry from "Read and React", or "Bend but don't break".

milkman
10-06-2004, 11:01 AM
IMO the Ravens did frivolously put the game on Boller and not Lewis. It's a good thing. You mean to tell me the Chiefs weren't focussing on Lewis early in the 4th when he got the ball 6 times on a TD drive and he ran for more than 6 yards on every carry (except the 1 yard TD run)? They weren't able to stop him on that drive and I fear that had Billick run Lewis on their final drive a similar problem would have occurred.

OK, I said I wasn't going to debate this issue any longer.
I lied.

I would contend that the Chiefs weren't focussing on Lewis at that time time, since they were up by 10, and it was fairly late in the game.

I think they gave up that focus too early, but they did.

Calcountry
10-06-2004, 11:03 AM
“Walked it down”

Nonsense.

No Defense can stop every Offense every time. That is just as absurd as implying that Billick is so stupid that he forgot he had Jamal Lewis in the backfield.

The Chiefs Defense held one of the best RBs in the NFL to 73 yards. For all your “yeah but” and statistic-mangling, that is an accomplishment.

xoxo~
Gaz
Amused.

I have never seen you this animated Gaz, keep it up man. :thumb:

Lzen
10-06-2004, 11:10 AM
So did we give Holmes enough carries in the Carolina game? He only ran the ball 16 times. Did they shut him down?

IMO we should given him the ball more. Of course, there's no way that Saunders forgot about him. Maybe it was because Green was throwing the ball so well. Vermeil even said they gave up on the run when they shouldn't have. But that's impossible. It's absurd that any offensive coordinator would abandon the run when he shouldn't have. It's never happened in the NFL.

Ridiculous camparison. Green > Boller. Our TE is better than their backup TE.

jspchief
10-06-2004, 11:21 AM
Ridiculous camparison. Green > Boller. Our TE is better than their backup TE.
The point was to demonstrate that O-coordinators sometimes call games poorly. Green may be ">" than Boller, but on that particular day he wasn't. According to Gaz, it's impossible that Baltimore's bad play-calling had anything to do with Lewis' deflated numbers. Even though he can blame Saunders when our O struggles.

We held him to 74 yards. That's good. We gave him 4.9 yards per carry, that's bad.

It's like last year when we were giving up all the yards and very few points. Concentrate on the good all you want, but if you ignore the underlying bad signs, they don't just go away.

edited to add that while Baltimore's passing game is not that impressive, our Pass D has shown to be as weak if not weaker than our run D in the last three weeks. It's not inconceivable that their gameplan involved trying to exploit that, specifically with putting their QB in motion (ala Houston and Denver). Coordinators get too cute for their own good all the time.

PastorMikH
10-06-2004, 11:36 AM
We held him to 74 yards. That's good. We gave him 4.9 yards per carry, that's bad.




Actually, ESPN has Lewis with the following carries:

(carries are in game-time order)
18
3
-1
1
2
3
5
End first half - that's 31 total yards, 18 of which came of the first play.


Lewis's yards came in the one drive where we were up by 10 and mey have been playing a little softer because after that drive Lewis accounted for just 6 yards for the rest of the game.


I think they did a decent job on Lewis.

InChiefsHell
10-06-2004, 11:42 AM
Actually, ESPN has Lewis with the following carries:

(carries are in game-time order)
18
3
-1
1
2
3
5
End first half - that's 31 total yards, 18 of which came of the first play.


Lewis's yards came in the one drive where we were up by 10 and mey have been playing a little softer because after that drive Lewis accounted for just 6 yards for the rest of the game.


I think they did a decent job on Lewis.

Well, that only proves that Billick should have ran him more...oh wait, they only had 4 1st downs in the whole first half...I guess they COULDN'T!!!
:)

jspchief
10-06-2004, 11:49 AM
Actually, ESPN has Lewis with the following carries:

(carries are in game-time order)
18
3
-1
1
2
3
5
End first half - that's 31 total yards, 18 of which came of the first play.


Lewis's yards came in the one drive where we were up by 10 and mey have been playing a little softer because after that drive Lewis accounted for just 6 yards for the rest of the game.


I think they did a decent job on Lewis.

So we were giving up 4.4 ypc. That's what Holmes averages by the way. I guess he's being shut down.

PastorMikH
10-06-2004, 11:56 AM
So we were giving up 4.4 ypc. That's what Holmes averages by the way. I guess he's being shut down.



I guess you're right. This D is worse than ever. Jamal Lewis ran all over us all night long. We might as well start thinking about who we want to waste the first pick of the 2005 draft on.



He gained half of his yards on one drive where we were up by 10 midway through the 4th quarter. The D was probably trying to key a little more on the passing game at that point because of the lead. I guess there is just no pleasing some people.

jspchief
10-06-2004, 12:01 PM
Here's a list of seven runs by Holmes in the Denver game this year. In game-time order.

1
1
5
7
-1
2
1

That's 16 yards. Was he shut down? He ran for over 150 that day.

It's called comitting to the run. It's what wins games when you have a stud RB. Baltimore didn't do it. You can say it's because we scared them away from the run...but that just shows that they are easily scared, not that we are that scary. If we lost a tight game, and only gave Holmes the ball 15 times, people would be calling for Saunders head. But when we're on the other side of the ball, we ignore the stats and claim that our D has made a miraculous leap.

I believe the run D is getting better. I'll believe it more if this trend continues. But I won't be blind to the fact that Baltimore didn't use their star offensive player enough, and our stats looked good, at least in part, because of it.

Skip Towne
10-06-2004, 12:08 PM
I have never seen you this animated Gaz, keep it up man. :thumb:
I have. Gaz gave Tribal Warfare a debate lesson one day . Must have been about 3 years ago however.

PastorMikH
10-06-2004, 12:21 PM
Here's a list of seven runs by Holmes in the Denver game this year. In game-time order.

1
1
5
7
-1
2
1

That's 16 yards. Was he shut down? He ran for over 150 that day.

It's called comitting to the run. It's what wins games when you have a stud RB. Baltimore didn't do it. You can say it's because we scared them away from the run...but that just shows that they are easily scared, not that we are that scary. If we lost a tight game, and only gave Holmes the ball 15 times, people would be calling for Saunders head. But when we're on the other side of the ball, we ignore the stats and claim that our D has made a miraculous leap.

I believe the run D is getting better. I'll believe it more if this trend continues. But I won't be blind to the fact that Baltimore didn't use their star offensive player enough, and our stats looked good, at least in part, because of it.



The stats you pulled there are AFTER Priest had 45 yards on 7 carries and a TD. Also, how many of Holmes' yards in the second quarter were negated by penalties? (2 of which were 10 yard holding penalties).

I think there is a difference between staying with a guy that already scored a TD and put up 45 yards in one quarter as opposed to handing the ball to a guy that has accounted for 11 total yards in 44 minutes of game time.

milkman
10-06-2004, 12:28 PM
So did we give Holmes enough carries in the Carolina game? He only ran the ball 16 times. Did they shut him down?

IMO we should given him the ball more. Of course, there's no way that Saunders forgot about him. Maybe it was because Green was throwing the ball so well. Vermeil even said they gave up on the run when they shouldn't have. But that's impossible. It's absurd that any offensive coordinator would abandon the run when he shouldn't have. It's never happened in the NFL.

No we didn't give Holmes enough carries in that Carolina game.

But the difference is that Priest got 16 carries, while the Chiefs O ran a total 57 plays.

Lewis got the ball for 15 carries, while the Ravens O ran a total of 41 plays.

Add Taylor's carries, and the total # of running plays approaches 50% for the Ravens O.

Add the carries by Blaylock, Morton, and Hall, and the total # of running play by the Chiefs against the Panthers is slightly more than 30%.

That's a big difference.