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CosmicPal
10-11-2004, 10:47 PM
As some of you may recall, I picked out a great Australian Cattle pup a little over a week ago. Named him Montana.

Anyways, it's been highly recommended I crate/kennel my dog when I'm away. The only problem is- he HATES it! I cannot get him to accept the crate.

My fear is- I'm single, and I'm gone most of the day, therefore, I don't think it's fair to leave the dog in the crate for 9 - 10 hours a day...That to me is way too much time for a dog to be cooped up.

If I don't crate him, he'll chew everything in the house. Last Monday, I came home to discover he literally ripped the carpet from the floor.

What the hell am I to do?

I do have a fenced in yard, but leaving him outside all day isn't such a good idea either.

Anyone have any advice, recommendation, or past/current experience leaving a pup at home for long hours at a time?

I'd really appreciate some sound advice so both the dog and I can be happy when I'm away.

Thanks!

:thumb:

Jenson71
10-11-2004, 10:49 PM
Put him in a room in the house with no carpet. Buy him one of those dog beds or pillows so he can lay on it. Hook him up to his leash. Hook the leash on to something that won't move. This gives him some room. If he likes the bed you bought for him, he can just lay in that all day.

siberian khatru
10-11-2004, 10:50 PM
9-10 hours is too long. A month ago I got a new puppy, we crate him, but luckily I can come home at lunch and let him out. He's never in the crate for more than 4 hours at one stretch.

As far as the dog not liking the crate, my experience has been if you don't give into them, and make sure they have chewy toys in the crate, they'll eventually get used to it. But you can't leave them in for 9-10 hours, certainly not puppies who need to get their ya-ya's out.

Count Alex's Losses
10-11-2004, 10:52 PM
You need to show the dog who is boss. Establish your dominance NOW if you want him to be a good house dog who won't rip shit up.

Alternatively, you could leave him in a tiled area and put up baby gates...I would reccomend whipping your dog into shape though.

tommykat
10-11-2004, 10:55 PM
Fenced yard and why not put him out? To cold? By a dog house as I have 2 of them..........What about the kitchen? I put a piece of plywood in front of the kitchen to the living room with mine....put paper down so when they wee put that outside and they learn fast. Just make sure you put plently of chew things in the kitchen for him....Chairs up also....works.:thumb:

Tried the crate training, but only 1 dog took it..........it is hard to do with that long of hours with a puppy!!

philfree
10-11-2004, 10:58 PM
My fear is- I'm single, and I'm gone most of the day, therefore, I don't think it's fair to leave the dog in the crate for 9 - 10 hours a day...That to me is way too much time for a dog to be cooped up.

You don't have a fenced in yard? Herd Dogs are pretty damn smart and very trainable. Not the type of dogs you have to pen up. If you ain't got the situation a herd dog may not be the best fit. Perhaps you should evaluate your dog habitat. But really a dog like that if you have the lifestyle can be taken with you if raised right.

PhilFree :arrow:

CosmicPal
10-11-2004, 10:58 PM
As far as the dog not liking the crate, my experience has been if you don't give into them, and make sure they have chewy toys in the crate, they'll eventually get used to it. But you can't leave them in for 9-10 hours, certainly not puppies who need to get their ya-ya's out.

I agree....I do leave half a dozen chew toys in the crate for him. It's funny though- I'll come home, and throw them all into the crate with some treat stuff inside, and he'll take em all out- including the dog bed.

9-10 hours is way too long, but I just can't trust him to roam the house, particularly when I have brand new furniture....damn!

I've thought about leaving him in the kitchen area (hardwood floor) and fencing the entrances to the kitchen...

Jenson71
10-11-2004, 10:59 PM
You need to show the dog who is boss. Establish your dominance NOW if you want him to be a good house dog who won't rip shit up.

Alternatively, you could leave him in a tiled area and put up baby gates...I would reccomend whipping your dog into shape though.

And as we all know, gochiefs probably knows a thing or two about discipline.

Skip Towne
10-11-2004, 10:59 PM
Single people shouldn't have dogs in the first place. I love dogs but can't have one for that reason. If you have a fenced in yard and a doghouse, do that. Or a garage if you have one. Good luck.

Count Alex's Losses
10-11-2004, 11:01 PM
And as we all know, gochiefs probably knows a thing or two about discipline.

I know a thing or two about dogs. I've cared for two in one way or another.

CosmicPal
10-11-2004, 11:01 PM
You don't have a fenced in yard?
PhilFree :arrow:

I do...but I will have to get some chicken wire for I have a wrought iron fence he can squeeze through...

Another issue is he's suffering from some major seperation anxiety. I let him out in the backyard, and he'll only roam if I'm there with him...If I close the door behind me, he'll just sit by the door.

siberian khatru
10-11-2004, 11:03 PM
I've thought about leaving him in the kitchen area (hardwood floor) and fencing the entrances to the kitchen...

I did that once with a dog, before I bought into crating -- he chewed a hole through my kitchen drywall. No joke.

tommykat
10-11-2004, 11:05 PM
Single people shouldn't have dogs in the first place. I love dogs but can't have one for that reason. If you have a fenced in yard and a doghouse, do that. Or a garage if you have one. Good luck.

Hey I've had 4 at one time...........not so..........but cosmo.....listen to me!!! I know what I am talking about...........Seperation anxiety happens and is hard.........but instead of a crate for that long he/she will do fine in the kitchen with papers and toys!!!

Skip Towne
10-11-2004, 11:08 PM
Hey I've had 4 at one time...........not so..........but cosmo.....listen to me!!! I know what I am talking about...........Seperation anxiety happens and is hard.........but instead of a crate for that long he/she will do fine in the kitchen with papers and toys!!!
You're the exception. Your house is set up for it and you took Mackey to work with you. Stop contradicting me!!! :p

CosmicPal
10-11-2004, 11:11 PM
but instead of a crate for that long he/she will do fine in the kitchen with papers and toys!!!

I think I might have to try that....damn this guy is becoming one hell of an expense. :D

He's an awesome dog...I've already got him housebroken, he's sitting upon command, he's chasing and returning frisbees and throw toys, and I've gotten him to stop jumping on people.

I've worked hard at this, and the dog is very receptive and bright. It just breaks my heart to leave him in the kennel all day knowing he hates it.

tommykat
10-11-2004, 11:11 PM
You're the exception. Your house is set up for it and you took Mackey to work with you. Stop contradicting me!!! :p

I had 3 Shelties at home besides Macky!!

tommykat
10-11-2004, 11:13 PM
I think I might have to try that....damn this guy is becoming one hell of an expense. :D

He's an awesome dog...I've already got him housebroken, he's sitting upon command, he's chasing and returning frisbees and throw toys, and I've gotten him to stop jumping on people.

I've worked hard at this, and the dog is very receptive and bright. It just breaks my heart to leave him in the kennel all day knowing he hates it.

:harumph: EVER THOUGHT ABOUT PUTTING A DOGGIE DOOR IN? :p Omg....what a difference.....:thumb:

CosmicPal
10-11-2004, 11:14 PM
Where the hell do I get these "baby gates" things anyway?

Are they very expensive? I'll have to get two of them...hope this works, 'cause my next move is to build the pup a dog house, and get some temporary chicken wire...at least he can run around the yard all day digging whatever holes he wants to.

Count Alex's Losses
10-11-2004, 11:14 PM
I think I might have to try that....damn this guy is becoming one hell of an expense. :D

He's an awesome dog...I've already got him housebroken, he's sitting upon command, he's chasing and returning frisbees and throw toys, and I've gotten him to stop jumping on people.

I've worked hard at this, and the dog is very receptive and bright. It just breaks my heart to leave him in the kennel all day knowing he hates it.

Just get tough with him over the carpet issue. Eventually he will stop. You could also find an area of the house that you can close off to be just "his room."

philfree
10-11-2004, 11:15 PM
Another issue is he's suffering from some major seperation anxiety. I let him out in the backyard, and he'll only roam if I'm there with him...If I close the door behind me, he'll just sit by the door.

How long will he sit by the door? Till you come home would be ideal. I keep an English Setter which is totally different IMO but I keep him in a 6'x40' pen. Chain link panels aren't that expensive but you'd need a good floor or you'll have poop build up on the ground which will cause a parasite problem. Still I don't think the breed of dog you have is a pen type of dog. He's a work dog! He just wants to go with you to help you do what ever. Maybe you could teach him to herd women in your general direction :hmmm: A frisbee catcher maybe?

PhilFree :arrow:

Count Alex's Losses
10-11-2004, 11:15 PM
Where the hell do I get these "baby gates" things anyway?

Are they very expensive? I'll have to get two of them...hope this works, 'cause my next move is to build the pup a dog house, and get some temporary chicken wire...at least he can run around the yard all day digging whatever holes he wants to.

You can get one at any decent pet store...they cost like 30 bucks.

Well worth it IMO. Just don't let it collapse and fall on him. My dog had that happen to her when she was a puppy and she is scared of the thing for life now.

Skip Towne
10-11-2004, 11:18 PM
I had 3 Shelties at home besides Macky!!
Bah! You just put them in a shoebox.

Count Alex's Losses
10-11-2004, 11:19 PM
Bah! You just put them in a shoebox.

ROFL effin lap dogs....

tommykat
10-11-2004, 11:19 PM
Baby gates are cheap............HELLO..........if you think it will fall just put a HOOK and eye in the wall and nothing falls........chit, you guys...get it together.............(slapping my head)

tommykat
10-11-2004, 11:21 PM
Bah! You just put them in a shoebox.

Since I only have Kaylea left age 14 Skip I don't find humor in your remark.

CosmicPal
10-11-2004, 11:22 PM
Cripes....

Lately, I'd fill his water bowl and put it in the crate....he keeps taking it out...ha. He just did it again. Just another sign this "highly recommended" crate idea is a complete disaster.

Count Alex's Losses
10-11-2004, 11:24 PM
Cripes....

Lately, I'd fill his water bowl and put it in the crate....he keeps taking it out...ha. He just did it again. Just another sign this "highly recommended" crate idea is a complete disaster.

Just get a water dish that's heavy.

Skip Towne
10-11-2004, 11:24 PM
Since I only have Kaylea left age 14 Skip I don't find humor in your remark.
You know as well as I do that I didn't know that. Do you still have Macky?

tommykat
10-11-2004, 11:25 PM
You know as well as I do that I didn't know that. Do you still have Macky?

I do and VERY thankful........thanks.

Phobia
10-11-2004, 11:27 PM
Dude, I felt bad about kennel training a dog, too.

That was until I read something in a dog training book that made a helluva lot of sense to me.

Dogs derive from wolves. They LIVE in tiny holes they've dug in the ground or natural caves they've discovered. They've done so since the beginning of time. A dog's kennel should be only large enough for them to stand up and turn around. This is in their instincts. Put them in there and ignore them until they shut up. They'll take very quickly and it will become THEIR space - they'll WANT to go into their kennel. They also won't mess in their space because it's theirs. You shouldn't feel bad about the dog as long as you get him some exercise and out a couple of times per day. They can stay in there 23 hours a day if you exercise them enough the hour they're out. Of course, I wouldn't do this (23 hours) frequently, but they can easily withstand it without adverse affects to the animal.

Research it on your own or ask your vet.

TEX
10-11-2004, 11:30 PM
CosmicPal ,
I own a 1-year-old Australian Cattle Dog ( Blue Heeler) myself. Mine is crate trained and it started the second I broght her home. She took to it quite well and she reguarly spends about 3 hours a day in her crate. Those dogs MUST run as they're natural herders so I suggest that you play with yours every day that you can. Mine is one heck of a Frisbee dog.

Don't sweat the crate as it's essential in any form of training that you do, especially house -breaking. When the dog gets used to it, the crate will actually provide your dog with a sense of security.
Send me a PM if you need some specific answers. My dog really trained out very well. :thumb:

tommykat
10-11-2004, 11:31 PM
Dude, I felt bad about kennel training a dog, too.

That was until I read something in a dog training book that made a helluva lot of sense to me.

Dogs derive from wolves. They LIVE in tiny holes they've dug in the ground or natural caves they've discovered. They've done so since the beginning of time. A dog's kennel should be only large enough for them to stand up and turn around. This is in their instincts. Put them in there and ignore them until they shut up. They'll take very quickly and it will become THEIR space - they'll WANT to go into their kennel. They also won't mess in their space because it's theirs. You shouldn't feel bad about the dog as long as you get him some exercise and out a couple of times per day. They can stay in there 23 hours a day if you exercise them enough the hour they're out. Of course, I wouldn't do this (23 hours) frequently, but they can easily withstand it without adverse affects to the animal.

Research it on your own or ask your vet.

I can not disagree.........but Cosmo has choices. IMO in a crate that long with other options are better.

tommykat
10-11-2004, 11:33 PM
CosmicPal ,
I own a 1-year-old Australian Cattle Dog ( Blue Heeler) myself. Mine is crate trained and it started the second I broght her home. She took to it quite well and she reguarly spends about 3 hours a day in her crate. Those dogs MUST run as they're natural herders so I suggest that you play with yours every day that you can. Mine is one heck of a Frisbee dog.

Don't sweat the crate as it's essential in any form of training that you do, especially house -breaking. When the dog gets used to it, the crate will actually provide your dog with a sense of security.
Send me a PM if you need some specific answers. My dog really trained out very well. :thumb:

Again, I will not disagree..................BUT 8-10 hours a day is way to long!!!!!

TEX
10-11-2004, 11:33 PM
Cripes....

Lately, I'd fill his water bowl and put it in the crate....he keeps taking it out...ha. He just did it again. Just another sign this "highly recommended" crate idea is a complete disaster.

Dude, stick with it. I PROMISE it WILL work. My dog still dumps out all her food out of her bowl and eats it off the crate floor. She just turned 1 last weekend.

Ugly Duck
10-11-2004, 11:34 PM
Cosmic.... thanks for you efforts to rescue that herding dog. There's lots of 'em out there that are just too dang much dog for most people, and folks just give up and turn 'em in for adoption. Unfortunately, if I had to pick one breed that would be the absolute worst to leave alone for 9-10 hours... it would be the Australian Cattle Dog. ACDs & Border Collies - you don't want to leave them alone all day. They're just too dang smart... along with the Australian Shepard, that trio is without question way smarter than any other breed. Way too much intellect to countenance being in a crate all day IMO. Think about the ACD's breeding.... he's geared to herd all freakin day long. He's bred to spend all day at his cowboy's side, guard the pickup when his master is getting drunk, and sleep with his cowboy every night. Its in his blood, and it won't get trained out of him. Here's what I would do if I were you:

(1) Get him a dog to keep him company while you are away. That will do wonders for his psyche cuz he won't be alone. Being alone goes against the grain of every fiber in his body.

(2) Build them both an escape-proof outside pen. A dig-proof floor, a sun & rainproof roof, & sides that they can see through. Put their crates in the pen & prop the crate doors open so they can enter and leave at their whim. They'll spend all day listening to the sounds of the neighborhood & protecting your property while you are gone.

I built a similar setup for my Border Collies if you want me to send you some pics.

TEX
10-11-2004, 11:36 PM
Again, I will not disagree..................BUT 8-10 hours a day is way to long!!!!!

Yeah, it is. Like I said, mine is crated for about 3 - 4 hours every day. On rare occasions, she is crated for 8 hours, but a neighbor comes over to let her out to "break" after she's been in for about 3.

tommykat
10-11-2004, 11:36 PM
Cosmic.... thanks for you efforts to rescue that herding dog. There's lots of 'em out there that are just too dang much dog for most people, and folks just give up and turn 'em in for adoption. Unfortunately, if I had to pick one breed that would be the absolute worst to leave alone for 9-10 hours... it would be the Australian Cattle Dog. ACDs & Border Collies - you don't want to leave them alone all day. They're just too dang smart... along with the Australian Shepard, that trio is without question way smarter than any other breed. Way too much intellect to countenance being in a crate all day IMO. Think about the ACD's breeding.... he's geared to herd all freakin day long. He's bred to spend all day at his cowboy's side, guard the pickup when his master is getting drunk, and sleep with his cowboy every night. Its in his blood, and it won't get trained out of him. Here's what I would do if I were you:

(1) Get him a dog to keep him company while you are away. That will do wonders for his psyche cuz he won't be alone. Being alone goes against the grain of every fiber in his body.

(2) Build them both an escape-proof outside pen. A dig-proof floor, a sun & rainproof roof, & sides that they can see through. Put their crates in the pen & prop the doors open so they can enter and leave at their whim. They'll spend all day listening to the sounds of the neighborhood & protecting your property while you are gone.

I built a similar setup for my Border Collies if you want me to send you some pics.

FINALLY someone understands the breed and dog!:thumb:

tommykat
10-11-2004, 11:37 PM
Yeah, it is. Like I said, mine is crated for about 3 - 4 hours every day. On rare occasions, she is crated for 8 hours, but a neighbor comes over to let her out to "break" after she's been in for about 3.

Again cool.............thank you for stating that again. :thumb:

Phobia
10-11-2004, 11:39 PM
Again, I will not disagree..................BUT 8-10 hours a day is way to long!!!!!

Not at all. My 23 hours example was to demonstrate that he can go to work and not feel guilty. Naturally, 23 hours in a box is a helluva long time for a dog. Nobody is going to do that. But, if they did and the dog received a sufficient amount of exercise while out, it could be done.

People can, do, and shouldn't feel guilty crating their animal while earning a living.... as LONG AS THEY care for the animal when they return from work.

stumppy
10-12-2004, 01:47 AM
I'd say Duck has about the best idea.
I might offer a couple of options though.
1. Instead of going to all the trouble,time, and expense of building an escape proof pen I would just put up an electric fence around the inside of your current fence. They are pretty easy to install, affordable, and work very well.
2. If you live where this would be feasible, get 2 or 3 guieny (sp?) hens and turn them loose in the back yard. Your dog will love it. He'll spend all day long hearding them around. I have had a couple of friends that did this with their dogs(one a Border Collie and the other an Australian) and it kept them pretty happy. Although, my first choice would be another dog.

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 07:06 AM
People can, do, and shouldn't feel guilty crating their animal while earning a living.... as LONG AS THEY care for the animal when they return from work.

That much I do....I walk him around the city park once a day, and around the neighborhood once a day. He gets two walks per day.

I also take some time out to play with him every day in the backyard- which mostly consists of throwing the frisbee and another one of his throw toys. He absolutely loves chasing the frisbee, and I would love nothing more than to turn him into one hell of a frisbee dog.

When inside the house, I make sure I spend time tossing his toys around the house as well....

He gets plenty of attention.

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 07:22 AM
Cosmic.... thanks for you efforts to rescue that herding dog. There's lots of 'em out there that are just too dang much dog for most people, and folks just give up and turn 'em in for adoption.

Thanks! :thumb:
I knew going in, Montana would be a ton of work and excercise.

Unfortunately, if I had to pick one breed that would be the absolute worst to leave alone for 9-10 hours... it would be the Australian Cattle Dog.

:doh!:

I curse myself for overlooking this important fact.

Think about the ACD's breeding.... he's geared to herd all freakin day long. He's bred to spend all day at his cowboy's side, guard the pickup when his master is getting drunk, and sleep with his cowboy every night. Its in his blood, and it won't get trained out of him.

I've seen that in the pup already. Never in my life had I ever had a dog that was so protective, friendly, and dutiful. I can't wait to see him mature.

Get him a dog to keep him company while you are away. That will do wonders for his psyche cuz he won't be alone. Being alone goes against the grain of every fiber in his body.

This just may be my best bet. I will now have to research what would be the absolute best companion for Montana.

Build them both an escape-proof outside pen. A dig-proof floor, a sun & rainproof roof, & sides that they can see through. Put their crates in the pen & prop the crate doors open so they can enter and leave at their whim. They'll spend all day listening to the sounds of the neighborhood & protecting your property while you are gone.

I'd love to do this....My backyard is perfectly suited for the kind of environs he'd be happy with. However, I've been trying to keep him outside without me at his side. Did so before work this morning and he was overly excited when I let him back in before leaving. :banghead:
I want him to be comfortable in the backyard by himself....

I built a similar setup for my Border Collies if you want me to send you some pics.

That would be sweet! I'd love to see the work and give it some consideration. Thanks for your advice...greatly appreciated.

Mark M
10-12-2004, 07:55 AM
Separation anxiety can be very, very difficult to deal with, especially for a herding breed since they have sooooo much energy. Trust me ... we have a Corgi mix that tore up a bunch of stuff.

Is there any way possible for you, or even someone else, to come home and let the dog out during lunch or at some point during the day?

There are a few other suggestions that we used for our dog: On the weekends or a day off, start leaving your house for a few minutes at a time without kenneling the dog. We did it starting at 5 minutes a stretch, then gradually made it longer. Do this over the course of a few weeks.

BUT -- before you leave the house, just sit there, calmly, quietly, without even looking at the dog. Sit for about 5 - 10 minutes, then just get up and leave. No "goodbye" or anything like that. Just leave.

When you get back, do the same thing -- just sit there without paying any attention to the dog. This is also an important thing to do any time you get home. Sure, you can let the dog outside to do his business, but if you make a big deal about it when you get back home it reinforces the anxiety he has.

There are also anti-anxiety pills available from your vet -- we had to give them to our dog and it helped tremendously. It's called Clomicalm, although we just called it Puppy Prozac. :D

Here is a link to some info on it:
http://www.cah.com/library/sepanx.html

Here are some other links:
http://www.inch.com/~dogs/separationanxiety.html (http://www.inch.com/~dogs/separationanxiety.html)
http://www.sspca.org/Dogs_SeparationAnxiety2.html

Best of luck!

MM
~~:)

Mark M
10-12-2004, 08:00 AM
That much I do....I walk him around the city park once a day, and around the neighborhood once a day. He gets two walks per day.

I also take some time out to play with him every day in the backyard- which mostly consists of throwing the frisbee and another one of his throw toys. He absolutely loves chasing the frisbee, and I would love nothing more than to turn him into one hell of a frisbee dog.

When inside the house, I make sure I spend time tossing his toys around the house as well....

He gets plenty of attention.

You may not believe this, but that may not be enough exercise.

Aussies are bred to work all day long, and if he's not getting, at an absolute minimum, 2 hours of SOLID play and running a day, he'll have a lot of pent up energy.

Like I posted earlier, we have a Corgi/Besenji mix -- Corgis are basically bordier collies with short legs, and Besenji's are hunting dogs. For the first year I'd spend at least 3 hours a day in the back yard running the crap out of her ... and she STILL wanted to play.

It'll be a lot of work, but trust me -- in a few years you will have one of the most loyal, sweet and incredible dogs.

MM
~~:thumb:

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 08:10 AM
You may not believe this, but that may not be enough exercise.



I agree....However, I did forget to mention that I have a couple of days set aside for him to play with other dogs.

My brother has a dog and the two of them do nothing but run around in the yard for hours. I also have a couple of friends that have active dogs as well- and I make it a point to either bring Montana over and play furiously with their dogs, or they will bring their dogs over to my place....We basically crack open a beer and let the dogs go wild.

I plan on commiting to this 'playtime" at the very least- a couple of times a week. He gets along great with the other dogs, and has an absolute blast.

Mark M
10-12-2004, 08:30 AM
I agree....However, I did forget to mention that I have a couple of days set aside for him to play with other dogs.

My brother has a dog and the two of them do nothing but run around in the yard for hours. I also have a couple of friends that have active dogs as well- and I make it a point to either bring Montana over and play furiously with their dogs, or they will bring their dogs over to my place....We basically crack open a beer and let the dogs go wild.

I plan on commiting to this 'playtime" at the very least- a couple of times a week. He gets along great with the other dogs, and has an absolute blast.

That's great! However, he needs time like that every single day. Not necessarily with other dogs, but every single day he's going to need to run like a mofo. :D

Also, you might want to consider some kind of activity, such as agility or flyball. It not only gets him exercise, but also gets his mind working. Aussies are incredibly smart, and training them keeps them occupied and helps teach them their place in the pack.

You'd be surprised how quickly he'll learn, and what you can train him to do. Have fun with it -- I've got a friend from college with an Aussie, and he trained the dog to get him beer out of the fridge: he opens the door with his mouth (there's a rope that's tied to the handle), grabs the beer, closes the door with his head, and then brings the beer to you.

It's freaking awesome ...

MM
~~:LOL:

ceebz
10-12-2004, 08:45 AM
Not at all. My 23 hours example was to demonstrate that he can go to work and not feel guilty. Naturally, 23 hours in a box is a helluva long time for a dog. Nobody is going to do that. But, if they did and the dog received a sufficient amount of exercise while out, it could be done.

People can, do, and shouldn't feel guilty crating their animal while earning a living.... as LONG AS THEY care for the animal when they return from work.


I think the thing your missing here is, it's a pup. I think it's unfair to expect the pup to hold its pee/poop for 8 hours. One of the benefits of crate training is getting the pup to learn how to hold it. But, 8 hours is way too long. Currently, I'm raising a 12 week-old Lab pup. She never spends more than 2-3 hours at a time, locked in her crate. She willfully goes in at night, and only yelps when she needs to be let out to eliminate.

You keep leaving that pup in the crate for long periods of time, and it'll start eliminating in it. After that happens, good luck housebreaking it.

ceebz
10-12-2004, 08:48 AM
Separation anxiety can be very, very difficult to deal with, especially for a herding breed since they have sooooo much energy. Trust me ... we have a Corgi mix that tore up a bunch of stuff.

Is there any way possible for you, or even someone else, to come home and let the dog out during lunch or at some point during the day?

There are a few other suggestions that we used for our dog: On the weekends or a day off, start leaving your house for a few minutes at a time without kenneling the dog. We did it starting at 5 minutes a stretch, then gradually made it longer. Do this over the course of a few weeks.

BUT -- before you leave the house, just sit there, calmly, quietly, without even looking at the dog. Sit for about 5 - 10 minutes, then just get up and leave. No "goodbye" or anything like that. Just leave.

When you get back, do the same thing -- just sit there without paying any attention to the dog. This is also an important thing to do any time you get home. Sure, you can let the dog outside to do his business, but if you make a big deal about it when you get back home it reinforces the anxiety he has.

There are also anti-anxiety pills available from your vet -- we had to give them to our dog and it helped tremendously. It's called Clomicalm, although we just called it Puppy Prozac. :D

Here is a link to some info on it:
http://www.cah.com/library/sepanx.html

Here are some other links:
http://www.inch.com/~dogs/separationanxiety.html (http://www.inch.com/~dogs/separationanxiety.html)
http://www.sspca.org/Dogs_SeparationAnxiety2.html

Best of luck!

MM
~~:)


These are all very good points. I would prefer not to use a calming drug though.

Dartgod
10-12-2004, 08:56 AM
I think the thing your missing here is, it's a pup. I think it's unfair to expect the pup to hold its pee/poop for 8 hours. One of the benefits of crate training is getting the pup to learn how to hold it. But, 8 hours is way too long.
This is true. I have read that 1 hour for every month of age + 1 hour is a good guideline. Currently we leave ours in for no more than 3-4 hours at a time and she's 5 month old now.

You might want to consider doggie day care also. Seriously. My MIL lives with us and has been great for taking care of the dog, but since she just had back surgery, she's not going to be able to care for her. We've been checking out some places and are encouraged. Doggie day care is not just boarding them during the day either. They spend about 5-6 hours of the day interacting with other dogs which will teach them socialization skills as well as get them plenty of exercise. And the places we have visited so far are very strict about turning away aggressive dogs. They are also make sure that every dog is up to date on all their vaccinations. Most of the ones I've seen run about $15 per day. We talked to some of the "parents" when they were picking up their dogs and they all love it. One guy said he only brings his 3 days a week and on the days he doesn't bring him, the dog is trying to get in the car to go anyway.

Mark M
10-12-2004, 08:57 AM
These are all very good points. I would prefer not to use a calming drug though.

I agree that drugs are a last resort. But we really had no choice -- she actually tore apart her METAL CAGE! Tore the tines right off the thing.

Once we got her on the meds (which cost $30 a month), she calmed out. We only had her on them for a few months and, if nothng else works, I highly recommend it.

She is now the sweetest, most loving do I've ever had.

MM
~~:)

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 09:06 AM
Also, you might want to consider some kind of activity, such as agility or flyball.

I've heard a lot of good things about flyball. What exactly is this?

You'd be surprised how quickly he'll learn, and what you can train him to do. Have fun with it -- I've got a friend from college with an Aussie, and he trained the dog to get him beer out of the fridge: he opens the door with his mouth (there's a rope that's tied to the handle), grabs the beer, closes the door with his head, and then brings the beer to you.

It's freaking awesome ...

That would be sweet. When he gets a little older and can be trusted- I will have to consider teaching him to do that....how funny.

Wichita Lineman
10-12-2004, 09:07 AM
Don't worry so much about his feelings. Put him in the crate give him a small amount of food (no water) and give him something to do. Like a favorite toy or something old he likes to chew on. Be careful it isn't something he can swallow and he will get to where he likes it. I have a two dogs that were raised like that,they even spent the night in there. But now they can be trusted to be in the house during the day and use the doggie door and only be in their house at night. Try it for 2 weeks and see how it works.

ceebz
10-12-2004, 09:11 AM
Don't worry so much about his feelings. Put him in the crate give him a small amount of food (no water) and give him something to do. Like a favorite toy or something old he likes to chew on. Be careful it isn't something he can swallow and he will get to where he likes it. I have a two dogs that were raised like that,they even spent the night in there. But now they can be trusted to be in the house during the day and use the doggie door and only be in their house at night. Try it for 2 weeks and see how it works.


My pups have always spent the night in their crate, I just need to be nearby so that I wake up when they need to be let out.

Leaving a pup in a crate without water is a bad idea. Pups easily get dehydrated.

memyselfI
10-12-2004, 09:19 AM
As some of you may recall, I picked out a great Australian Cattle pup a little over a week ago. Named him Montana.

Anyways, it's been highly recommended I crate/kennel my dog when I'm away. The only problem is- he HATES it! I cannot get him to accept the crate.

My fear is- I'm single, and I'm gone most of the day, therefore, I don't think it's fair to leave the dog in the crate for 9 - 10 hours a day...That to me is way too much time for a dog to be cooped up.

If I don't crate him, he'll chew everything in the house. Last Monday, I came home to discover he literally ripped the carpet from the floor.

What the hell am I to do?

I do have a fenced in yard, but leaving him outside all day isn't such a good idea either.

Anyone have any advice, recommendation, or past/current experience leaving a pup at home for long hours at a time?

I'd really appreciate some sound advice so both the dog and I can be happy when I'm away.

Thanks!

:thumb:

Ah, welcome to the world of herding monsters forced to be nice...

Use the crate. Use the crate. Use the crate. We didn't and we lost FURNITURE, granted old college aged furniture, but our lovely beast chewed up a loveseat, an end table corner, and part of our coffee table. I finally got smart and put some wood near the fireplace and he chews that.

But the crate has been a godsend as far as having a place for him to stay confined while away. However when he is let out he needs EXERCISE and LOTS of it. So he spends time outside chasing squirrels and we try to walk him or play catch as much as possible which it sounds like you are trying to do.

If he must be crated make sure he's left with something to do in the crate besides sleep. Invest in some GOOD dog toys that cannot be destroyed easily and won't pose a choking hazard if destroyed.

It will never be easier to get him accustomed to the crate as it is NOW so do not back off but by the same token he needs to be active outside of the crate as much as possible so make sure you get him the exercise he needs outside of the crate which I've learned for a herding dog is NEVER enough. :)

ceebz
10-12-2004, 09:23 AM
If he must be crated make sure he's left with something to do in the crate besides sleep. Invest in some GOOD dog toys that cannot be destroyed easily and won't pose a choking hazard if destroyed.



A stuffed Kong toy does wonders when trying to keep a pup occupied in a crate.

memyselfI
10-12-2004, 09:26 AM
Where the hell do I get these "baby gates" things anyway?

Are they very expensive? I'll have to get two of them...hope this works, 'cause my next move is to build the pup a dog house, and get some temporary chicken wire...at least he can run around the yard all day digging whatever holes he wants to.

We got ours at K-Mart. They have an 'Evenflo' model that is taller and expands further than most ordinary gates. They sell for about $24.99. They are wood at the base but wire in the middle. You might get two to re-inforce the first one.

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 09:27 AM
Use the crate. Use the crate. Use the crate. We didn't and we lost FURNITURE, granted old college aged furniture, but our lovely beast chewed up a loveseat, an end table corner, and part of our coffee table. I finally got smart and put some wood near the fireplace and he chews that.



Thus far, I've been using this bitter apple spray. Whenever I see him chewing on something other than his toys, I'll spray the object and tell him "No"

He hasn't gone anywhere near the object again. This stuff is a godsend.

Ghostof
10-12-2004, 09:29 AM
"He hasn't gone anywhere near the object again. This stuff is a godsend"



Unless you have a mutt with a apple fetish

ceebz
10-12-2004, 09:37 AM
"He hasn't gone anywhere near the object again. This stuff is a godsend"



Unless you have a mutt with a apple fetish

Have you tasted the stuff? It may smell like apple but, it sure as hell doesn't taste like it.

memyselfI
10-12-2004, 09:39 AM
Thus far, I've been using this bitter apple spray. Whenever I see him chewing on something other than his toys, I'll spray the object and tell him "No"

He hasn't gone anywhere near the object again. This stuff is a godsend.

My dog LIKED the taste. :banghead: :cuss:


I managed to cook up a cayanne pepper paste that did the trick. :harumph:

Saggysack
10-12-2004, 09:43 AM
Whew. Thank goodness my beagles are crate trained. They love their crates. All I have to do is say " Dogs, crates" and they go right in wagging their tails.

Ghostof
10-12-2004, 09:46 AM
On a side note


I've had 2 austrailian shepherds...very loyal..great family pets..and EXTREMELY smart.


I think all the happiest childhood moments were with my austrailian shepherds. Whats bad was that the first one was an outside pet....and it would sit at one of the yard, near the road..like 10 feet away, and each car that drove by it would chase it from one end of the yard to the other. We drove out to Colorado and seen Pueblo, Durango, Seven Falls, Golden, and Denver, about 20 years ago, came back home and she was gone. Not sure what ever happened to her. It was around that time that alot of dogs were being stolen.

The second dog we had we bought in 1985 and she lived until 2002. She developed a cancerous tumor on her back hip, wasnt much vets could do about it. She was the best dog I have ever had. I taught her to fetch rocks and it got to the point that you could take a handful a gravel or small rocks, toss them in the air, and she would jump up and do a flip with her back legs fully extended up and land on her front legs. I tried the frisbee but she never got into that...she instead had a favorite brick that I would toss out in the shallow side of the pond. She would wade out in the water up over her legs and literally stick her head under water, growling and barking, then pick up the brick and carry out.

She developed strong neck muscles and was able to carrry around rocks that were at least 15-20lbs. I remember we had this triangle shaped granite rock that she would bark and tumble it through the yard to the fence, pick it up with her teeth, carry it back to the deck, roll it off and do it all over again.

I also remember she and I would go "mousing" together. During the winter time, I used to take a shovel out to the back 40, and help her dig up field mice. I used to get a kick out of watchering her stalk mice. We would be walking along, find a field mouse trail and follow it to like a couple small holes. She would cock her head to the side and listen. I'd say "get that mouse..sick'em" and shed start digging.

Man I miss her.

Mark M
10-12-2004, 09:54 AM
A stuffed Kong toy does wonders when trying to keep a pup occupied in a crate.

Those are outstanding.

We get low-fat peanut butter, stuff the thing with it, and then put in the freezer for a few hours.

It keeps the Karma dog occupied for a long, long time.

MM
~~:thumb:

ceebz
10-12-2004, 09:55 AM
On a side note



The second dog we had we bought in 1985 and she lived until 2002. She developed a cancerous tumor on her back hip, wasnt much vets could do about it. She was the best dog I have ever had. I taught her to fetch rocks and it got to the point that you could take a handful a gravel or small rocks, toss them in the air, and she would jump up and do a flip with her back legs fully extended up and land on her front legs. I tried the frisbee but she never got into that...she instead had a favorite brick that I would toss out in the shallow side of the pond. She would wade out in the water up over her legs and literally stick her head under water, growling and barking, then pick up the brick and carry out.

She developed strong neck muscles and was able to carrry around rocks that were at least 15-20lbs. I remember we had this triangle shaped granite rock that she would bark and tumble it through the yard to the fence, pick it up with her teeth, carry it back to the deck, roll it off and do it all over again.

I also remember she and I would go "mousing" together. During the winter time, I used to take a shovel out to the back 40, and help her dig up field mice. I used to get a kick out of watchering her stalk mice. We would be walking along, find a field mouse trail and follow it to like a couple small holes. She would cock her head to the side and listen. I'd say "get that mouse..sick'em" and shed start digging.

Man I miss her.

That was a cool story, thanks for sharing.

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 09:58 AM
I think all the happiest childhood moments were with my austrailian shepherds. Whats bad was that the first one was an outside pet....and it would sit at one of the yard, near the road..like 10 feet away, and each car that drove by it would chase it from one end of the yard to the other. We drove out to Colorado and seen Pueblo, Durango, Seven Falls, Golden, and Denver, about 20 years ago, came back home and she was gone. Not sure what ever happened to her. It was around that time that alot of dogs were being stolen.



That sucks. BUT, Why the hell didn't you guys get someone to watch her while your family was on vacation? Particularly, if you knew dogs were being stolen in the neighborhood.

ceebz
10-12-2004, 09:58 AM
Those are outstanding.

We get low-fat peanut butter, stuff the thing with it, and then put in the freezer for a few hours.

It keeps the Karma dog occupied for a long, long time.

MM
~~:thumb:

Yeah, we stuff it with that Adam's Peanut Butter, (made with only peanuts) some kibble, and some pieces of boiled chicken. She loves going into her crate because she knows she's getting her kong.

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 10:01 AM
Yeah, we stuff it with that Adam's Peanut Butter, (made with only peanuts) some kibble, and some pieces of boiled chicken. She loves going into her crate because she knows she's getting her kong.

I've got a couple of those Kong toys as well, and stuff one with minature bisquits and the other one with peanut butter.

They are his favorite toys.

MOhillbilly
10-12-2004, 10:08 AM
Go spend 23$ on *The Art of Raiseing a Puppy* by the Monks of New Skatee.
Itll tell you everything you wanna know.

Ghostof
10-12-2004, 10:11 AM
That sucks. BUT, Why the hell didn't you guys get someone to watch "her while your family was on vacation? Particularly, if you knew dogs were being stolen in the neighborhood."


Because we didnt know about it. Everything was fine when we left, my grandparents live about a half mile down the road from us and was watching the place. Nothing was out of the ordinary. We had done this once before because my uncle lived in Denver. We were gone for a week and everything was fine. This time was like a week and a half. We drove up expecting to see her waiting for us. Everyone was calling for her, but she never showed up. My family carried their bags inside and I ran all around the yard and the back property. No trace, nothing. My parents called my grandparents and they said they didnt see anyone stop by or do anything suspicious. My dad and I drove all around on the gravels roads and the backroads within a mile of our house. I remember staying up late watching out the front and back doors with the lights on, calling for her all night long.

A few days later My dad was in town at the CO-OP telling the locals about our trip etc over some coffee and one of the farmers was talking about how his neighbors were complaining about their dogs missing. Well, there were like a dozen or so cases like that.

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 10:27 AM
Personally I would never raise a dog in a crate but then again I already had a small room with hardwood floors that worked perfectly. Taz chewed the door a little but that's a small price to pay.

ceebz
10-12-2004, 10:35 AM
Personally I would never raise a dog in a crate but then again I already had a small room with hardwood floors that worked perfectly. Taz chewed the door a little but that's a small price to pay.

How long did it take to housebreak your pits?

My lab hardly ever spends any time during the day in her crate, unless she's sleeping. When she's tired, she willfully goes into her crate.

I think the crate is really beneficial during the housebreaking period, to teach them how to hold "it", instead of just eliminating on the floor when they have to go.

Hayley, (my 12 week-old Lab pup), was pretty much housebroken within a week. Crating also worked well with my Boxer.

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 10:38 AM
Because we didnt know about it. Everything was fine when we left, my grandparents live about a half mile down the road from us and was watching the place. Nothing was out of the ordinary. We had done this once before because my uncle lived in Denver. We were gone for a week and everything was fine. This time was like a week and a half. We drove up expecting to see her waiting for us. Everyone was calling for her, but she never showed up. My family carried their bags inside and I ran all around the yard and the back property. No trace, nothing. My parents called my grandparents and they said they didnt see anyone stop by or do anything suspicious. My dad and I drove all around on the gravels roads and the backroads within a mile of our house. I remember staying up late watching out the front and back doors with the lights on, calling for her all night long.



Man, that's terrible. I know it was in the past, but my heart goes out to you for that experience.

I've had many dogs in the past, one was hit by a car, another died of heat exhaustion, but mostly old age.

I remember one of our dogs running off, he was a brittany spaniel, and he just bursted out the door when a friend came in. A day later, the police called to say he was running around I-435...I was so relieved when he was brought back home, but man did I ever cry a thousand tears for him when he was gone...

Taco John
10-12-2004, 10:38 AM
You need to show the dog who is boss. Establish your dominance NOW if you want him to be a good house dog who won't rip shit up.

Alternatively, you could leave him in a tiled area and put up baby gates...I would reccomend whipping your dog into shape though.



That's the worst dog advice I've ever seen given. Have you ever even read a book on dog behaviour?

Taco John
10-12-2004, 10:41 AM
I do...but I will have to get some chicken wire for I have a wrought iron fence he can squeeze through...

Another issue is he's suffering from some major seperation anxiety. I let him out in the backyard, and he'll only roam if I'm there with him...If I close the door behind me, he'll just sit by the door.



Seperation anxiety is why you're going to have problems with the dog. Especially a herding dog. You shouldn't get a herding dog if you're going to be away for hours at a time, or don't plan on getting another dog for him to wrassle with. Otherwise, you're just asking for problems for the both of you...

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 10:43 AM
How long did it take to housebreak your pits?

My lab hardly ever spends any time during the day in her crate, unless she's sleeping. When she's tired, she willfully goes into her crate.

I think the crate is really beneficial during the housebreaking period, to teach them how to hold "it", instead of just eliminating on the floor when they have to go.

Hayley, (my 12 week-old Lab pup), was pretty much housebroken within a week. Crating also worked well with my Boxer.

It took a couple months. A few messes but not too bad on hardwood floors. He only peed twice in the house ever.

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 10:45 AM
ceebz,

BTW game raised pits are raised on chains in backyards so to raise them domestically and housebreak them is harder than with other breeds. My English bully as an example had it within days.

Taco John
10-12-2004, 10:47 AM
I reccommend this book to anyone raising a pup (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425142345/qid=1097595991/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8279551-5039159?v=glance&s=books)

You can only get it used anymore... But it'll be the best $5 bucks you'll ever spend on your dog.

ceebz
10-12-2004, 10:49 AM
ceebz,

BTW game raised pits are raised on chains in backyards so to raise them domestically and housebreak them is harder than with other breeds. My English bully as an example had it within days.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. I was just wondering because I don't know anyone who's raised a pit before.

Your English Bulldog get along real well with the Pits? I've always wanted an English Bully.

ceebz
10-12-2004, 10:51 AM
Seperation anxiety is why you're going to have problems with the dog. Especially a herding dog. You shouldn't get a herding dog if you're going to be away for hours at a time, or don't plan on getting another dog for him to wrassle with. Otherwise, you're just asking for problems for the both of you...

I agree. Pups really need your full attention pretty much all of the time. They really are just like babies. Thankfully, my wife is self-employed so she's home with the pup during the day.

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 10:54 AM
Yeah, I'm aware of that. I was just wondering because I don't know anyone who's raised a pit before.

Your English Bulldog get along real well with the Pits? I've always wanted an English Bully.

I only have one pit and they get along great. I don't leave them together when I am out of the house though as a precautionary sort of thing. English Bullies are great but don't live long and can have some health issues. Mine just turned 9 and is at the end of her rope right now. If you don't mind high maitenance and like running it all the time a game raised pit is awesome. If you are more laid back and not going to run it all the time and American Bully is a good dog. I love bullies in general but there is nothing like an APBT.

MOhillbilly
10-12-2004, 11:05 AM
I only have one pit and they get along great. I don't leave them together when I am out of the house though as a precautionary sort of thing. English Bullies are great but don't live long and can have some health issues. Mine just turned 9 and is at the end of her rope right now. If you don't mind high maitenance and like running it all the time a game raised pit is awesome. If you are more laid back and not going to run it all the time and American Bully is a good dog. I love bullies in general but there is nothing like an APBT.


So in your opinion what breed is more hard headed?And more willing to please outta the two?

ceebz
10-12-2004, 11:10 AM
I only have one pit and they get along great. I don't leave them together when I am out of the house though as a precautionary sort of thing. English Bullies are great but don't live long and can have some health issues. Mine just turned 9 and is at the end of her rope right now. If you don't mind high maitenance and like running it all the time a game raised pit is awesome. If you are more laid back and not going to run it all the time and American Bully is a good dog. I love bullies in general but there is nothing like an APBT.

2 kids ages 6 and 9, and a wife which had been attacked by mutt as a kid, pretty much rules out a Pit for me. My wife would be terrified of it. http://justinmg.home.comcast.net/forums/gsvery-happy.gif

An English Bully would be nice though. And I'm used to high maintenence expenses. I don't think there's a more expensive dog to maintain, than a Boxer.

BigMeatballDave
10-12-2004, 11:19 AM
I just bought a Golden retriever pup for my son. Pick him up Saturday. I am NOT looking forward to house training. I've always wanted a Retriever/Lab, ever since I was a child. Now, I'll get to share it with my son! I'm geeked.

ceebz
10-12-2004, 11:24 AM
I just bought a Golden retriever pup for my son. Pick him up Saturday. I am NOT looking forward to house training. I've always wanted a Retriever/Lab, ever since I was a child. Now, I'll get to share it with my son! I'm geeked.


GR's are easy to housebreak. Just make sure you spend A LOT of time with the pup so you can catch it messing on the floor, and correct it.

I also recommend crate training. I really find it beneficial to the housebreaking training, and it keeps them from chewing up your house while they are unattended. Just make sure you don't lock them up in it for more than an hour or two at a time.

BigMeatballDave
10-12-2004, 11:31 AM
GR's are easy to housebreak. Just make sure you spend A LOT of time with the pup so you can catch it messing on the floor, and correct it.

I also reccomend crate training. I really find it beneficial to the housebreaking training, and it keeps them from chewing up your house while they are unattended. Just make sure you don't lock them up in it for more than an hour or two at a time.Thanks for the tips!

:thumb:

Brando
10-12-2004, 11:31 AM
I don't have enough time to read through the whole thread so here is how I trained mine.
I placed a towel over any openings on the side.
I then made a shaker can(place pennies in an empty soda can).
Let the dog think that you've walked away from the crate. When he starts whining make some noise for about 30 seconds. Continue doing this until the dog is silent for at least 30 seconds.
Once that happens let him out of the crate and praise him.
My dog goes into hers and plops down even when I'm home. She's been doing it for seven years now.
Crating is not inhumane. On the contrary it provides the dog with a sense of security.
In KC there are dog walking services that can stop by your house and take your dog out for a walk in the afternoon. If it is impossible for you to get home at lunch you might look into the cost for this too?

ceebz
10-12-2004, 11:40 AM
I don't have enough time to read through the whole thread so here is how I trained mine.
I placed a towel over any openings on the side.
I then made a shaker can(place pennies in an empty soda can).
Let the dog think that you've walked away from the crate. When he starts whining make some noise for about 30 seconds. Continue doing this until the dog is silent for at least 30 seconds.
Once that happens let him out of the crate and praise him.
My dog goes into hers and plops down even when I'm home. She's been doing it for seven years now.
Crating is not inhumane. On the contrary it provides the dog with a sense of security.
In KC there are dog walking services that can stop by your house and take your dog out for a walk in the afternoon. If it is impossible for you to get home at lunch you might look into the cost for this too?


Very good idea on the shaker can. I've used a radio, (left on some AM talk radio station), a ticking clock, or just left the tv on. Background noise seems to do wonders for them.

Putting an article of your clothing (that you've recently worn) can help too. Your scent seems to calm them down when they're alone in the crate.

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 11:56 AM
Crating is not inhumane. On the contrary it provides the dog with a sense of security.


I understand it's not inhumane, but for a pup to be in a crate for 9 hours? Isn't that too much?

I'm looking into the walking service...

ceebz
10-12-2004, 12:10 PM
I understand it's not inhumane, but for a pup to be in a crate for 9 hours? Isn't that too much?

I'm looking into the walking service...

Yes. 9 hours is way too long. You don't have a neighbor that could come by once or twice a day to walk your pup?

MOhillbilly
10-12-2004, 12:18 PM
9 hours is WAY tolong to leave a pup alone under any circumstances.
If you do not have the time dont buy the pup or you'll just end up w/ a half assed socialized dog. You wont be happy and the dog wont be happy in the end.

I havent raised pups in sometime but when i do its up an hour and a half early home at lunch and inside at night.Its a pain in the ass but youll have a better friend in the end.
JMO.

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 12:21 PM
Yes. 9 hours is way too long. You don't have a neighbor that could come by once or twice a day to walk your pup?

I tried a couple of friends last night...they wouldn't do it. I'm trying to find someone in the meantime.

Otherwise, I think I'm just going to have to go get another dog for him.... :banghead:

Mark M
10-12-2004, 12:26 PM
I tried a couple of friends last night...they wouldn't do it. I'm trying to find someone in the meantime.

Otherwise, I think I'm just going to have to go get another dog for him.... :banghead:

Make sure it's an older dog (2 -3 years) and a calmer, yet playful, breed.

MM
~~:)

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 12:28 PM
So in your opinion what breed is more hard headed?And more willing to please outta the two?

It depends on what you mean by hard headed. All bullies are stubborn but the APBT is far more affectionate and willing to please out of all the bully breeds. MOF they are more affectionate than ANY breed I have ever been around. If hard headed means absolutely determined that would be the APBT as well. I would have to give the most defiant award to the English Bully though, I don't know what her problem is.

MOhillbilly
10-12-2004, 12:32 PM
It depends on what you mean by hard headed. All bullies are stubborn but the APBT is far more affectionate and willing to please out of all the bully breeds. MOF they are more affectionate than ANY breed I have ever been around. If hard headed means absolutely determined that would be the APBT as well. I would have to give the most defiant award to the English Bully though, I don't know what her problem is.

By hard headed i meant defiant.
Just got me wondering on what others thought after they had bulldog types and bulldogs.
I know my boxers were complete knuckle heads compared to my bulldogs.

ceebz
10-12-2004, 12:36 PM
By hard headed i meant defiant.
Just got me wondering on what others thought after they had bulldog types and bulldogs.
I know my boxers were complete knuckle heads compared to my bulldogs.

http://justinmg.home.comcast.net/forums/gsvery-happy.gif Yep, Boxers are knuckleheads.

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 12:41 PM
By hard headed i meant defiant.
Just got me wondering on what others thought after they had bulldog types and bulldogs.
I know my boxers were complete knuckle heads compared to my bulldogs.

My pit is pretty dang obediant, much more so than many others I have seen. The only thing I need to break him of now is jumping on people when they visit. I'll have him broke of that soon enough. He does it once and I send him to his room and he gets to listen to everyone pay attention to my other dog, he hates that. It's my fault for not being on him about it more. My godson comes over and likes him jumping all over him and I usually don't have that many other visitors. Had KC Dan over recently as well as bunnytrdr and I realized then I need to get all over him about it.

Dartgod
10-12-2004, 01:03 PM
So has anyone else had any experience with doggie daycare centers? I'm seriously considering this.

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 01:11 PM
Make sure it's an older dog (2 -3 years) and a calmer, yet playful, breed.

MM
~~:)

When I picked up Montana from the Denver Dumb Friends League- there was this absolutely beautiful (I forgot the breed) dog. He was 6 years old and had spent his entire life on a ranch that recently suffered foreclosure.

The dog was old, but the sweetest living dog I've ever met. I kick myself now for not bringing him home with Montana. :banghead:

But, I felt two dogs would be too much for me- when I simply forgot that I am certainly not enough for one dog. I hate myself for putting Montana in this position....I only have so many hours in the day to exercise him, feed him, and play with him.

For the sake of Montana's complete happiness, I will have to look into a dog walking service or doggie day care as well.

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 01:15 PM
When I picked up Montana from the Denver Dumb Friends League- there was this absolutely beautiful (I forgot the breed) dog. He was 6 years old and had spent his entire life on a ranch that recently suffered foreclosure.

The dog was old, but the sweetest living dog I've ever met. I kick myself now for not bringing him home with Montana. :banghead:

But, I felt two dogs would be too much for me- when I simply forgot that I am certainly not enough for one dog. I hate myself for putting Montana in this position....I only have so many hours in the day to exercise him, feed him, and play with him.

For the sake of Montana's complete happiness, I will have to look into a dog walking service or doggie day care as well.

You can't let him out at lunch?

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 01:18 PM
You can't let him out at lunch?

Nope....I'm like a half hour away from home when I'm at the office.

Mark M
10-12-2004, 01:30 PM
On a side note, since there are so many dog owners reading this thread, let me take this time to pimp some stuff that I have absolutely no vested interest in whatsoever (my sister-in-law sells it in eastern Iowa, but it's not like that bitch gives me a cut of her profits, and I could give a rats ass if she makes money).

http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/

This company sells some absolutely amazing supplements through regional distributors. All three of our dogs get Sea Meal (for their coats) and bee pollen for airborne allergies. All of their coats are incredibly soft, and the Corgi's coat absolutely shines -- our vet told us he's never seen a dog with a coat that good.

We've got our 12-year old (soon to be 13) Eskie on the Yucca for his arthritis ... and I swear on my life that it has improved his life. He acts as if he's 4 or 5 now.

I rarely rave about a product; however, the stuff from this company is outstanding. We don't use their food (it's a bit expensive, so we go with Nutro Max), but I swear by their supplements.

MM
~~:)

ceebz
10-12-2004, 01:43 PM
On a side note, since there are so many dog owners reading this thread, let me take this time to pimp some stuff that I have absolutely no vested interest in whatsoever.

http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/

This company sells some absolutely amazing supplements. All three of our dogs get Sea Meal (for their coats) and bee pollen for airborne allergies. All of their coats are incredibly soft, and the Corgi's coat absolutely shines. Our vet told us he's never seen a dog with a coat that good.

We've got our 12-year old (soon to be 13) Eskie on the Yucca for his arthritis ... and I swear on my life that it has improved his life. He acts as if he's 4 or 5 now.

I rarely rave about a product; however, the stuff from this company is outstanding. We don't use their food (it's a bit expensive, so we go with Nutro Max), but I swear by their supplements.

MM
~~:)


Yeah, the sea meal is great stuff. I was trying to get my lab pup on the Solid Gold Wolf Cub kibble but, she couldn't tolerate it. (a lot of diarrhea)

She's now on Wellness Super5Mix Puppy Kibble (http://www.omhpet.com/dogs/wellness_detail.asp?pCode=dryDogSup5MixPuppy).

I suggest to everyone who isn't feeding their dog a by-product, preservative, and grain-free, kibble look into doing so. While Eukanuba and Science Diet are believed to be top of the line kibble, there are much better foods available for your dog.

Mark M: While Nutro certainly isn't a bad food, there is better out there. If you want to stay with Nutro, might I suggest the Nutro Natural Choice? I'm pretty sure it's wheat and corn free.

memyselfI
10-12-2004, 01:45 PM
yeah, yeah the advice is great...

but where are the puppy pooch pics? :cuss: Certainly I am not the only one proud of her pup. ;)

ptlyon
10-12-2004, 01:47 PM
Certainly I am not the only one proud of her pup. ;)

Now, now, there's no need to bring your second "career" into this...

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 01:54 PM
Now, now, there's no need to bring your second "career" into this... ROFL

MOhillbilly
10-12-2004, 02:06 PM
My pit is pretty dang obediant, much more so than many others I have seen. The only thing I need to break him of now is jumping on people when they visit. I'll have him broke of that soon enough. He does it once and I send him to his room and he gets to listen to everyone pay attention to my other dog, he hates that. It's my fault for not being on him about it more. My godson comes over and likes him jumping all over him and I usually don't have that many other visitors. Had KC Dan over recently as well as bunnytrdr and I realized then I need to get all over him about it.


Knee em' in the chest acouple good ones and tell him OFF or DOWN or whatever command.
He'll get the hint quick.

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 02:09 PM
Knee em' in the chest acouple good ones and tell him OFF or DOWN or whatever command.
He'll get the hint quick.

Yea he doesn't do it to me. It's down and he knows better than to try it. He pulls that crap with other people. Like I said his days of doing that are going to be short lived at this point.

Brando
10-12-2004, 02:27 PM
So has anyone else had any experience with doggie daycare centers? I'm seriously considering this.

Hey Dartgod...I don't know if you're in KC but I've seen some adds in stores on 39th street for this.
I'll see if I can find any info to pass along to you.

Pennywise
10-12-2004, 02:35 PM
Knee em' in the chest acouple good ones and tell him OFF or DOWN or whatever command.
He'll get the hint quick.

Stepping on their back feet helps also.

Mark M
10-12-2004, 02:36 PM
Mark M: While Nutro certainly isn't a bad food, there is better out there. If you want to stay with Nutro, might I suggest the Nutro Natural Choice? I'm pretty sure it's wheat and corn free.

The stuff we feed two of them (the stuff for large dogs) is wheat, corn, and by-product free, as is the Senior formula we give the Eskie.

It's amazing what some companies put in their food ... like road kill.

MM
~~:eek:

Brando
10-12-2004, 02:42 PM
The stuff we feed two of them (the stuff for large dogs) is wheat, corn, and by-product free, as is the Senior formula we give the Eskie.

It's amazing what some companies put in their food ... like road kill.

MM
~~:eek:

It is amazing..that's why mine are on a strict diet of dead babies :)
All kidding aside..they do put some nasty crap into what passes for dog food at the local grocery store.

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 02:55 PM
Cosmic,

Didn't you get this dog to protect your pad? How's he supposed to do that from a crate?

J Diddy
10-12-2004, 02:56 PM
Cosmic,

Didn't you get this dog to protect your pad? How's he supposed to do that from a crate?

Maybe the burglar in question has a phobia of crated dogs.

J Diddy
10-12-2004, 02:57 PM
It is amazing..that's why mine are on a strict diet of dead babies :)
All kidding aside..they do put some nasty crap into what passes for dog food at the local grocery store.

but yet it tastes so good

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 03:00 PM
It is amazing..that's why mine are on a strict diet of dead babies :)
All kidding aside..they do put some nasty crap into what passes for dog food at the local grocery store.


Almost all dog food sucks ass. I used solid gold until MOHillbilly got me to try Canidae. I cook for them once a day and give the pit dry once a day.

J Diddy
10-12-2004, 03:01 PM
Almost all dog food sucks ass. I used solid gold until MOHillbilly got me to try Canidae. I cook for them once a day and give the pit dry once a day.

You cook for your dog?

Damn, I don't even cook for my kids.

ceebz
10-12-2004, 03:04 PM
The stuff we feed two of them (the stuff for large dogs) is wheat, corn, and by-product free, as is the Senior formula we give the Eskie.

It's amazing what some companies put in their food ... like road kill.

MM
~~:eek:

Yeah, it really is. What's unfortunate is you have vets running around telling their customers that Eukanuba and Science Diet are top of the line foods.

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 03:14 PM
You cook for your dog?

Damn, I don't even cook for my kids.

Dude just get one of those toaster ovens, the greatest invention of all time. Throw some chicken in there and pour the boullion with a little water in one of those 15 minute rice cookers. It's no problem at all really. Add a little garlic powder and it keeps the fleas off em too. I also add flax seed oil and some supplements.

Brando
10-12-2004, 03:19 PM
I feed mine baby food once in a while...she loves that shiat!

ceebz
10-12-2004, 03:21 PM
Dude just get one of those toaster ovens, the greatest invention of all time. Throw some chicken in there and pour the boullion with a little water in one of those 15 minute rice cookers. It's no problem at all really. Add a little garlic powder and it keeps the fleas off em too. I also add flax seed oil and some supplements.


You ever think about doing a BARF diet BIGDADDY? I'm thinking about putting my Lab on it once she hits 12 months.

MOhillbilly
10-12-2004, 03:21 PM
Dude just get one of those toaster ovens, the greatest invention of all time. Throw some chicken in there and pour the boullion with a little water in one of those 15 minute rice cookers. It's no problem at all really. Add a little garlic powder and it keeps the fleas off em too. I also add flax seed oil and some supplements.


BD, use Barleans cold ground flax seed.
Im going to look something up and see if i cant pm the link.

ceebz
10-12-2004, 03:22 PM
Almost all dog food sucks ass. I used solid gold until MOHillbilly got me to try Canidae. I cook for them once a day and give the pit dry once a day.


Yeah, the Canidae is pretty good stuff too. Why did you switch from the Solid Gold?

ceebz
10-12-2004, 03:32 PM
For supplements I give dr. pitcairn's healthy powder (nutritional yeast, lecithin, kelp, calcium, vitamin C), fish oil and vitamin E. that's pretty much it.

Every now and then I give her some canned pumpkin (not the pumpkin pie filler) to help with the digestive tract.

CosmicPal
10-12-2004, 09:45 PM
Well, I got home around 3PM today....let the dog out of the crate- of course he was more than excited to see me.

We then went out back and played frisbee for about a half hour when I decided to leave him out there and see how he does without me.

Well, before I knew it, he escaped through my wrought iron fence. Profound panic set in. I had no idea how long he'd been gone for I found myself preoccupied by cleaning the kitchen. I ran downstairs for he likes to lie next to my bed, but he wasn't there. I ran all over the house yelling out his name only to discover no dog was going to come running to me.

PHUCK! I was so mad at myself. But, I had to go find my dog! I grabbed his leash and my car keys and opened the front door when the phone rang. Not a good time for the damn phone to be ringing, but something propelled me to answer it, and when I did- it was one of my neighbors calling to say Montana had drifted into their yard and he was enjoying a bone- peacefully.

Whew....

So, I thanked the neighbor, picked up Montana and drove straight to Home Depot and bought 25 ft of chicken wire and some plastic ties.

I don't care how bad it looks to have chicken wire draped across the bottom of my wrought iron fence, but it's more important to me that Montana is safe and secure in his own backyard. Not to mention, it will give me some peace of mind.

After putting up the chicken wire- it was then time to set up Montana's new territory. I'ved decided- he's better off roaming the living room. I've sprayed all the legs of my furniture, my couch, and loveseat. I've put blankets over the couch and loveseat. I brought up his kennel and set it in the corner and draped a blanket over it. And I brought up his food and water bowls. And lastly- his chew toys.

I just got home from PetSmart where I spent another few bucks on MORE freakin toys and a rawhide bone that he's chewing on right now.

Montana is NOT going to sit in that kennel all day defecating on himself and being practically immovable for 9 hours. He's going to remain a happy, sweet, vivacious, and energetic dog.....

But, I am one damn tired dude right now. I haven't spent this much time on anyone in one day, not even myself. Sheesh....

I JUST WANTED TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO THANK EVERYONE DEEPLY FOR THEIR ADVICE AND SUPPORT.

I am simply overwhelmed by everyone's advice- much of it was very valuable. I'm going to start with this first, and then consider other options should it not work. I just pray my new furniture isn't destroyed when I get home....

stumppy
10-12-2004, 09:52 PM
Like I said before. Electric fence. They work very well, will not hurt your dog and are easy to install. My female beagle (Betty) can "sense" when the fence is on. All she has to do is get close to it and she knows. It beats the hell out of them getting out and hit by a car or stolen.

P.S. Glad you got him back ok.

Ugly Duck
10-13-2004, 12:31 AM
Here's the pen I built for my dogs - they don't mind too much being in there. The roof is shade cloth with that corrigated plastic roofing on top. Everything crimp-wired down so they can't escape. These dogs can go over the top of a 6 1/2 solid wood fence in less than a second, so it has to be escape-proof. The floor is that thick rubber mat that they put in horse stalls. I prop open the doors to their crates so they each have their own little cave.

Ugly Duck
10-13-2004, 12:41 AM
yeah, yeah the advice is great...

but where are the puppy pooch pics? I already posted this of Buck all wet at the beach - my other pics are on another hard drive that ain't available right now. I'll look for some more....

Ugly Duck
10-13-2004, 12:51 AM
This guy was semi-feral when I got him. Had never been in a house before. Raised by goats in the Santa Cruz mountains. Had dreadlocks, fleas, a tapeworm - never had a bath in his life. Weighed only 32 lbs cuz the tapeworm was digesting all his food, now he's 44 lbs of solid muscle - not a gram of fat on this guy. Fast enough to keep up with whippets & the smartest dog I've ever partnered up with.

Nelson Muntz
10-13-2004, 12:53 AM
Had dreadlocks



How dare you take the gangsta out of the dog?

Ugly Duck
10-13-2004, 01:01 AM
My other border collie is a red merle - very rare coloration for the breed. She's a varmint dog from Lake County - another rescue. Kills the hell out of gophers & rats. Will climb a friggin tree to go after a squirrel. Way up the tree like a cat - its awesome to see!

Ugly Duck
10-13-2004, 01:14 AM
We spend a lot of time at the beach. Takes the edge off of their energy chasing the seabirds and swimming after the seals. This is Elephant Rock near Dillon Beach.

CosmicPal
10-13-2004, 07:30 AM
This guy was semi-feral when I got him. Had never been in a house before. Raised by goats in the Santa Cruz mountains. Had dreadlocks, fleas, a tapeworm - never had a bath in his life. Weighed only 32 lbs cuz the tapeworm was digesting all his food, now he's 44 lbs of solid muscle - not a gram of fat on this guy. Fast enough to keep up with whippets & the smartest dog I've ever partnered up with.

That is one beautiful bordie collie!

stumppy
10-13-2004, 08:37 AM
We spend a lot of time at the beach. Takes the edge off of their energy chasing the seabirds and swimming after the seals. This is Elephant Rock near Dillon Beach.

Who's the ugly mutt in the........oh, nevermind.:p

Ugly Duck
10-13-2004, 09:54 PM
That is one beautiful bordie collie!He didn't look like that when I got him, lemme tell ya! Hey, I got one more word of advice that I forgot to mention. If you get a dog for your dog - get one of the opposite sex. Somehow, for some reason, there seems to be less competition when you mix 'em up. You don't want them fighting when you are gone, but rather keeping one another company. How about another pic 'o the pup?

BigOlChiefsfan
10-13-2004, 10:02 PM
Consider getting him a dog. Seriously. A low mantainance 'porch ornament' dog is fine, someone he can herd around. Let him herd the porch ornament instead of chewing important things. Teach 'em both to kennel up. Aussie cattle dogs/Heelers aren't necessarily smarter than you are...but they're smart enough that you may want to have them help with refinancing your mortgage and doing your taxes.

BigChief1
10-13-2004, 10:56 PM
I hate crating dogs. Do you have a garage? I built a simple pen out of 2x4's and chicken wire years ago. We're on our 3rd dog. We start them out immediately in the pen. They get used to it. When we leave I say kennel up and my lab runs to the pen wanting in. A treat helps entice them. I've never had one try to climb over, but that's always a possibility. If you're concerned add a cheap top. They'll be just fine. Did I say I hate crating dogs........to me it's the lazy man's way out. If you're gonna be a pet owner be prepared to do it right. Obedience training is a must. Good Luck!

Skip Towne
10-13-2004, 11:03 PM
I hate crating dogs. Do you have a garage? I built a simple pen out of 2x4's and chicken wire years ago. We're on our 3rd dog. We start them out immediately in the pen. They get used to it. When we leave I say kennel up and my lab runs to the pen wanting in. A treat helps entice them. I've never had one try to climb over, but that's always a possibility. If you're concerned add a cheap top. They'll be just fine. Did I say I hate crating dogs........to me it's the lazy man's way out. If you're gonna be a pet owner be prepared to do it right. Obedience training is a must. Good Luck!
Agreed. :thumb:

Ugly Duck
10-13-2004, 11:30 PM
Aussie cattle dogs/Heelers aren't necessarily smarter than you are...but they're smart enough that you may want to have them help with refinancing your mortgage and doing your taxes. ROFL :clap: ROFL

Ugly Duck
10-13-2004, 11:37 PM
I've never had one try to climb over, but that's always a possibility. The pen I made is 6 1/5 ft tall. First time I put 'em in there was before I put a roof on it. They both jumped out of the pen, jumped over the fence, and met me at the driveway before I got the key in the ignition. They stayed put after I told them to "stay", but I put a roof on the pen real quick after that. Some dogs are just natural escape artists.

CosmicPal
10-14-2004, 09:23 AM
Thanks again for all the advice guys! I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

I left Montana out of his crate all day while I was at the office yesterday. When I returned home, nothing was destroyed and most surprisingly- no poopie or urine in the house! :eek:

I don't know if that is a good sign of things to come or if I was just lucky....

But, I do agree with the many who recommended I get another dog for Montana. But, I don't want twice the mess....I need a dog that will be friendly, playful, but this time mature.

What do you guys recommend for a playmate for an Australian Cattle dog without giving me too many headaches?

What do you think would be the best companion dog for Montana? I agree a female would be best, and I will pick up a female, but I'm just wondering what breed would be best for an Australian Cattle dog to companion with?

Frosty
10-14-2004, 09:59 AM
This guy was semi-feral when I got him. Had never been in a house before. Raised by goats in the Santa Cruz mountains. Had dreadlocks, fleas, a tapeworm - never had a bath in his life. Weighed only 32 lbs cuz the tapeworm was digesting all his food, now he's 44 lbs of solid muscle - not a gram of fat on this guy. Fast enough to keep up with whippets & the smartest dog I've ever partnered up with.

That's a border collie?

He looks almost identical to my Australian Shepherd.

CosmicPal
10-14-2004, 11:08 AM
I'm thinking of this gal as a companion for Montana.

http://www.ddfl.org/up4adopt.html

Or would having to Australian Cattle dogs be too much?

Ugly Duck
10-14-2004, 10:17 PM
That's a border collie?

He looks almost identical to my Australian Shepherd.I do hear that a lot. My two border collies both have typical Aussie coloration.... a tri-color and a red merle. A lotta people don't realize that BC's come in all the same colors as Aussies do. Ya know.... those two breeds are genetically so similar that even the experts get stumped.

Ugly Duck
10-14-2004, 10:19 PM
I'm thinking of this gal as a companion for Montana.

http://www.ddfl.org/up4adopt.html

Or would having to Australian Cattle dogs be too much?I didn't see nothin on you link.... can you post a photo? Having two heelers is a great idea! They'll both be on the same wavelength and keep each other occupied while you are gone. Great idea!

CosmicPal
10-15-2004, 07:06 AM
I didn't see nothin on you link.... can you post a photo? Having two heelers is a great idea! They'll both be on the same wavelength and keep each other occupied while you are gone. Great idea!

You think it's a great idea? Kewl....maybe, I'll stop by the DDFL this afternoon and take a look at her. Sorry, I didn't check the link before posting it.

Click on the link http://www.ddfl.org/up4adopt.html and on the lefthand side, scroll down to DOGS Quebec Shelter>>All Dogs>>Female>>And the dog I'm considering is Amithyst

She would be a year older than Montana, so I think she might be able to tame him, but more importantly -give him more exercise and playtime....

(If you see any other dogs you think might be a good choice, let me know as well)....thanks.

Mark M
10-15-2004, 07:53 AM
What do you guys recommend for a playmate for an Australian Cattle dog without giving me too many headaches?


One that is older (like the one that's a year older than Montana) that is already house trained and has enough energy to keep up. Although you may want to think of a different breed ... one that still has the energy needed, but is still a bit more mellow. Having a pair of Aussies could get ... well, interesting. That's a lot of energy. :)

Our Corgi-mix got AMAZINGLY better once we got Otis, the shaggy mutant.

MM
~~:thumb: