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BigRedChief
10-12-2004, 08:28 AM
You can never have enough Cardinal threads on a Chiefs website so I thought I'd start a thread for the NCLS. Start the smack now!
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/mlb/images/ps/y2004/200x100_nlcs.gif

BigRedChief
10-12-2004, 08:38 AM
I'm thinking that the pitching is set up for the Cardinals and the pitching rotation is all messed up for the stros. Unless they come back with Clemons on 3 days rest again (didn't work out so well last time) we will see their # 3 and 4 pitchers the first 2 games.

The stros will see Morris and Williams at home. They have a 750 winning % at home. We should go up 2-0 at that point. That leaves us with only having to win 2 out of 5 with 2 at home.

But I don't think pitching is going to decide this series. I just don't see Houston pitching able to go through the Cardinals modern day murders row succesfully for 4 games. I think our offense beats their pitching to decide the series.

Cards in 6

BigRedChief
10-12-2004, 08:45 AM
From an article off MLB.com:


This time, it's Clemens and Roy Oswalt in the roles of the right-handers who could lead the Astros to bigger things. Both Cy Young Award candidates, Clemens and Oswalt give Houston a 1-2 punch at the top of the rotation that the Cardinals simply can't match on paper.

The Astros also bring the Killer B's -- Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Lance Berkman and new addition Carlos Beltran. The first three exorcised some major October demons this week and Beltran, a budding superstar acquired in June, had a monster series against Atlanta with four homers, nine runs scored and nine RBIs.

The Cardinals' rabid, red-clad fans entered October believing this year presented the best opportunity to return to the World Series since the 1980s, when the club advanced three times, winning in '82 but falling short in '85 and '87.

The main reason for that confidence is the powerful St. Louis lineup, led by Pujols, Rolen and fellow NL MVP candidate Jim Edmonds. And even though they had a great supporting cast in that lineup with shortstop Edgar Renteria and left fielder Reggie Sanders, the Cardinals made a monumental pickup in August by trading for Larry Walker -- who, much like Alex Rodriguez with the Yankees, provides a whole new element of power from the No. 2 spot in the lineup.

Then there's the Cardinals' pitching staff, which has been pointed to and fretted over as a potential Achilles' heel. Yet the Cardinals, with a rotation considered by many to be full of No. 2 and No. 3 starters, managed to do just fine, thanks, in the regular season with its 3.75 ERA ranking second in the league.

With a 3.09 ERA in the four-game NLDS victory over the Dodgers and step-up starting performances from Game 1 starter Woody Williams and Game 4 starter Jeff Suppan, the St. Louis pitching was neither weakness nor detriment.

When the two teams square off on Wednesday, their 19th meeting of the year will be by far the most important as two division rivals will engage in a postseason matchup that figures to write some interesting NLCS history.

Meanwhile, maybe some folks will pay attention to that "other" series as well.

BigRedChief
10-12-2004, 08:51 AM
Cards vs. Stros positional breakdown off of mlb.com:
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041012&content_id=891691&vkey=ds2004news&fext=.jsp

ROYC75
10-12-2004, 08:59 AM
The season series was won by Houston.

Have I told you I hate St Louis.

Go Astros !

OCChiefsFan
10-12-2004, 09:05 AM
I am a Stros fan, and I have to say that the Cardinals are very deep.. The key for the Stros will be to steal one of the first two games, to try and get to Clemens and Oswalt in Games 3 and 4. I think the Cards will win game one because the Stros are throwing Munro. Backe in game 2 presents the better option to steal one on the road.

I think it will be as interesting a series as the Sox/Yankees.

Much respect for the Cards, but I have to believe the Stros can pull it out in 6.

BigRedChief
10-12-2004, 09:09 AM
Backe in game 2 presents the better option to steal one on the road.

I think it will be as interesting a series as the Sox/Yankees.

Much respect for the Cards, but I have to believe the Stros can pull it out in 6.

I agree. If we get the 2-0 start the stros are in trouble. If the stros steal one of those we are in trouble. Good luck...just not to much...:rolleyes:

PastorMikH
10-12-2004, 09:09 AM
'Cmon Cards!


I'd like to see the Cards against their old coach for all the marbles.

BigRedChief
10-12-2004, 09:12 AM
The season series was won by Houston.



This is misleading. The stros were fighting for their playoff lifes for 6 of those games and the Cards were resting their players.



Have I told you I hate St Louis.

Forgive him O' baseball lord...he not know what he do...:shake:

Come to the light..Turn from the dark side...:p

Hoover
10-12-2004, 09:17 AM
As a Cubs fan, who hates the Yankees I'm hoping the Red Sox win it all, but I hope the Stros knock off the Cards

homey
10-12-2004, 09:37 AM
Clemens looks like he could be running out of gas to me. The success of Oswalt and Clemens determines the fate of this series. The Astros have a good line-up, but the Cards' is better. The Astros has a formidable bullpen, but the Cards' is better. Cards have a deeper rotation and Houston better hope they don't blow out what bullpen they have in the first 2 games. It's quite possible this series could be over in a hurry if that happens. Of course it’s also possible for Houston to pull it out of their ass. We’ll see.

BigRedChief
10-12-2004, 09:38 AM
As a Cubs fan, who hates the Yankees I'm hoping the Red Sox win it all, but I hope the Stros knock off the Cards

you need some therapy Hoover. I share your hatred of the YankeesAnd as a fan of a "real" rival of the Cardinals I must say....Are you enjoying watching October baseball on tv?....again...:p

Stinger
10-12-2004, 09:40 AM
I'm thinking that the pitching is set up for the Cardinals and the pitching rotation is all messed up for the stros. Unless they come back with Clemons on 3 days rest again (didn't work out so well last time) we will see their # 3 and 4 pitchers the first 2 games.

The stros will see Morris and Williams at home. They have a 750 winning % at home. We should go up 2-0 at that point. That leaves us with only having to win 2 out of 5 with 2 at home.

But I don't think pitching is going to decide this series. I just don't see Houston pitching able to go through the Cardinals modern day murders row succesfully for 4 games. I think our offense beats their pitching to decide the series.

Cards in 6

I think Morris is going to be the weak link. He has not showed me anything so far. But there is always hope. Go Card!! :toast:

Hoover
10-12-2004, 09:59 AM
you need some therapy Hoover. I share your hatred of the YankeesAnd as a fan of a "real" rival of the Cardinals I must say....Are you enjoying watching October baseball on tv?....again...:p
The Cubs have some problems (i.e. Sosa)

But they did win more games than they won last year, and at least they will continue to be a contender year in and year out. I miss the excitement of the playoffs in Wrigley. I would have loved to see a Cubs Cards NLCS.

I think the Cubs need to do the following.

Trade Sosa
let Nomar go
resign Matt Clement
find an effin closer

here is what I'd like to see next year as the line up

C - Barrett
1st - D Lee
2nd - A. Soriano (Trade for Sosa????)
3rd - A Ram
SS - E Martinez (Sp?)

OF - Alou
OF - C Patterson
OF - J Peirrer (Sp)

Prior
Wood
Zambrano
Maddux
Clement

ROYC75
10-12-2004, 09:59 AM
This is misleading. The stros were fighting for their playoff lifes for 6 of those games and the Cards were resting their players.



Forgive him O' baseball lord...he not know what he do...:shake:

Come to the light..Turn from the dark side...:p


Hey, I know what I do, but I don't like the Cards, Yanks, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers,Mets.

The arrorgance of the fans are what drives me away from them, plus the big market money compaired to the smaller markets.

The Yanks, Dodgers and Mets are arrogant punks.
The Sox and Cubs are cry babies....
The Cards are cocky little redbirds........

I want to see Houston win it this year !

Alton deFlat
10-12-2004, 10:54 AM
The season series was won by Houston.


Yea, the season series was won by the Astros, but six of those games were played after the Cards had already won the division. Up until that point, the Cards had won 7 of the 12 games.

BigRedChief
10-12-2004, 11:20 AM
From espn page2:
... Houston has no chance. Go ahead and talk about the Astros' season-ending series sweep of St. Louis. The 'Stros got what they desperately needed -- out of a playoff round. Now, with a pitching rotation in tatters, they'll be lucky to take this series to six games.

Pick: StL in 5.

grandllama
10-12-2004, 12:56 PM
I'm just elated that a formal Royal is in the position to make St. Looser's season suck again....

tk13
10-12-2004, 01:40 PM
As much as everybody talks smack about that last series during the final week where the Astros were fighting and swept the Cardinals after they had the division wrapped up, it would be extremely ironic if that the Cardinals "not caring" got the Astros into the playoffs, and then the Astros turn around and end the Cardinals season. Sports karma is messed up like that....

ROYC75
10-12-2004, 02:18 PM
I'm just elated that a formal Royal is in the position to make St. Looser's season suck again....

He is playing like a man on a mission ! :thumb:

BigRedChief
10-12-2004, 02:23 PM
As much as everybody talks smack about that last series during the final week where the Astros were fighting and swept the Cardinals after they had the division wrapped up, it would be extremely ironic if that the Cardinals "not caring" got the Astros into the playoffs, and then the Astros turn around and end the Cardinals season. Sports karma is messed up like that....

Even I would say this would be a case of sports karma/justice. But if LaRussa was wrong for resting his players then the rustiness would have shown up in the LA series. Instead they just steam rolled right along with just a minor glitch for one game.

tk13
10-12-2004, 02:32 PM
Even I would say this would be a case of sports karma/justice. But if LaRussa was wrong for resting his players then the rustiness would have shown up in the LA series. Instead they just steam rolled right along with just a minor glitch for one game.
I wasn't saying anything about being rusty, I was talking about the fact that the Cards helped the Astros get into the playoffs by resting guys, and because of that... now the Astros are going to get the opportunity to take the Cards out. If the Cards had won just one of those final three games the Astros might not have even made the playoffs...

BigRedChief
10-12-2004, 02:43 PM
Okay I'm throwing down the gaunlet here. I will wager against all planeteers that my Cardinals will win the NLCS and advance to the World Series. If I win you have to have a St. Louis Cardinal avatar until the World Series is over. If I lose I must have an avatar of your chosing until the World Series is over. Any takers?

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 08:56 AM
ESPN.com preview of the series:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=neel/041013

part of it for the Cardinal fans
A St. Louis Walk of Fame that features, among other things, Rogers Hornsby, The Gashouse Gang, Stan the Man's jaunty follow-through, a seven-game World Series triumph over the American League baseball club from Boston in 1946, Dizzy Dean's wit, Big Bob Gibson's glare, a seven-game World Series triumph over the American League baseball club from New York in 1964, Lou Brock's cloud of dust, Joe Torre's MVP year, Al Hrabosky's mane, The Wizard's backflipping love of the game, Willie McGee's hangdog mug, Mac's '98, and Curt Flood's legacy, without which A-Rod would be just another company man, bowing and scraping before The Man.

Members of the Cardinals' starting staff, who've been getting about as much respect as Regis has doing Sinatra tunes (and who, unlike Regis, deserve better), delivering the time-honored "nobody believed we could do it, but I tell you what, these guys have a lot of heart, and we hung together, and now here we are, and it's just unbelievable, man" postgame speech, and transforming it from unbearable cliché to righteous, heartfelt expression of emotion.

http://espn.starwave.com/i/page2/photos/041013pujols.jpgThe most feared hitter left in the playoffs isn't playing in the ALCS.

Loyal citizens of St. Louis, maybe the best baseball town in the country, decked out in red, toting scorebooks to the ballpark, and ready for a bloodletting on the banks of the Missouri River.

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 09:25 AM
More .com articles:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2004/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1900561

Fox: Cards have too much power:
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3076752


Cbs sports:
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/postseason/series-breakdown/HOU/STL

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 02:11 PM
Last chance for the avatar bet? Houston wins I put your choice of avatar on my profile until the Wold Series is finished. You lose it's a Cardinals avatar for you. Where are you ENDElt260? other haters?

Frazod
10-13-2004, 02:18 PM
I'm going to have to start calling you BigRedSaul. :shake:

ENDelt260
10-13-2004, 02:27 PM
Last chance for the avatar bet? Houston wins I put your choice of avatar on my profile until the Wold Series is finished. You lose it's a Cardinals avatar for you. Where are you ENDElt260? other haters?
Much as I thought your retarded schtick would never stop being funny to me... I was wrong. It got old. I moved on.

Chief Henry
10-13-2004, 02:32 PM
The season series was won by Houston.

Have I told you I hate St Louis.

Go Astros !



As a die hard cardinal i want to tell you 4321

Chief Henry
10-13-2004, 02:36 PM
He is playing like a man on a mission ! :thumb:


He's one hell of a plaer thats for dam sure. Its got to sting like crazy for
Royals fan to watch him produce and strike gold not wearing the Royal
Blue. KC ownership needs to buck up a few more $$$.


Go Cardinals....KICK the STRO'S AZZZ

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 02:36 PM
Much as I thought your retarded schtick would never stop being funny to me... I was wrong. It got old. I moved on.

All I was doing was talking about my sports team. You came at me with this "hater" schtick. Trashing me my team and giving out neg rep. I'd be happy to move on to if you are ready to leave the "hater" schtick behind.

Chief Henry
10-13-2004, 02:37 PM
He's one hell of a player thats for dam sure. Its got to sting like crazy for Royals fan to watch him produce and strike gold not wearing the Royal Blue. KC ownership needs to buck up a few more $$$.


Go Cardinals....KICK the STRO'S A S S

ENDelt260
10-13-2004, 02:39 PM
All I was doing was talking about my sports team. You came at me with this "hater" schtick. Trashing me my team and giving out neg rep. I'd be happy to move on to if you are ready to leave the "hater" schtick behind.
You couldn't move on if you wanted to. I quit feeding you long ago... I just check in your threads now to see if you've still got a bur up your ass. Smirk, and move on.

I do find it amusing that my hatred of the Tardinals makes me not a "true fan", tho you're allowed to hate the Yankees.

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 02:50 PM
I do find it amusing that my hatred of the Tardinals makes me not a "true fan", tho you're allowed to hate the Yankees.Where did I say you were not a true fan? Or in any way speak negative about you being a Royals fan? I have posted on several occasion glowing reviews of Royal fans. That fans like yourself are to be admired for sticking with their team through thick and thin.

You are allowed to hate other teams. You just cant go around and do nothing in a discussion but hate and sat they suck and not be called a hater.

BTW, Your smirking and hoiler than tho schtick is getting old. Your much better at being a straight smart ass. :p

ENDelt260
10-13-2004, 02:53 PM
Where did I say you were not a true fan?

Oh, I suppose I can go find it.

As for the smirking... don't be a retard, and I won't smirk at you. A little neg rep and you bring my name up in any post remotely baseball related. It's funny.

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 02:57 PM
Oh, I suppose I can go find it.

I'll wait here for you.

As for the smirking... don't be a retard, and I won't smirk at you.

Don't be an ass and just let it go.

ENDelt260
10-13-2004, 02:59 PM
ROFL I love watching you tell me to let it go. You're the tard that constantly brings it up.

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 03:31 PM
ROFL I love watching you tell me to let it go. You're the tard that constantly brings it up.

And just what is a tard? Can you get a masters in it at UMR? Cause it seems that you are a great candidate to teach the course.:p

4th and Long
10-13-2004, 06:13 PM
Even though Albert Pujols and I graduated from the same high school (albeit decades apart :p), I still hate the Cards with every fiber of my being.

GO STROS!

ENDelt260
10-13-2004, 06:15 PM
Ft. Osage sucks, too.

Wow... been awhile since I had anti-Fort feelings stirred up.

tk13
10-13-2004, 06:20 PM
He's one hell of a plaer thats for dam sure. Its got to sting like crazy for
Royals fan to watch him produce and strike gold not wearing the Royal
Blue. KC ownership needs to buck up a few more $$$.


Go Cardinals....KICK the STRO'S AZZZ
Honestly it doesn't bother me too much... if he ends up in the HOF in 20 years maybe it will. We've known for a long time that Beltran wasn't coming back. Plus I think even if baseball was more "equal", his agent (Scott Boras) still would've made him go out into the open market and start a bidding war... in that sense it's no different than football or any other sport.

tk13
10-13-2004, 06:24 PM
Hellooooooo Carlos! 2-0 Astros...

TEX
10-13-2004, 06:24 PM
The NEW Mr. OCTOBER RULES! Go Beltran! Go STROS! :clap:

Miles
10-13-2004, 06:36 PM
Pujols ties it up with a 2 run shit :thumb:

tk13
10-13-2004, 06:40 PM
Backe should've pitched around Pujols and got Rolen to ground into a double play. Rolene doesn't look good at all....

Miles
10-13-2004, 08:01 PM
Backe should've pitched around Pujols and got Rolen to ground into a double play. Rolene doesn't look good at all.... Looks like they are taking this approach this time around and its probably a good idea.

Rolen is hobbling but he wont go hitless forever.

tk13
10-13-2004, 08:05 PM
Lucky bastards... can this team not have something go right? Rolen waits for the perfect time to get his first hit.

Miles
10-13-2004, 08:05 PM
Rolen finally come though with a rbi base hit.

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 08:17 PM
3 inning game. Looks like momentum has swung towards the Cardinals. Cards got 3 chances left, the Astros 2. Good game.

Miles
10-13-2004, 08:27 PM
Up 6-4 on two manufactured runs :thumb:

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 08:27 PM
Yeah baby. Just too much offense for the stros. 3 runs up now. 9 outs away.

ENDelt260
10-13-2004, 08:32 PM
Boy that game sure went to shit in a hurry.

Miles
10-13-2004, 08:37 PM
Bases loaded. Come on Edmunds break this one open.

tk13
10-13-2004, 08:39 PM
Houston's killed themselves... a couple of less than stellar defensive plays and poor pitching... the Cards are going to murder you if you're doing that stuff.

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 08:42 PM
6 run lead. Not over yet. Stros are a good team. You can see how they have got this far.

Ralphy Boy
10-13-2004, 08:45 PM
Way to go Jimmy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Deberg_1990
10-13-2004, 08:47 PM
WTF? here in San Antonio....the Red Sox/Yankees game is buried on Fox Sport Net...WTF is baseball thinking?? It took me like an hour to find the game......

Miles
10-13-2004, 08:49 PM
WTF? here in San Antonio....the Red Sox/Yankees game is buried on Fox Sport Net...WTF is baseball thinking?? It took me like an hour to find the game......

Yeah letting fox carry both games scheduled at the same time was a big mistake. I imagine the Cards Astros game is on Fox Sports everywhere outside of their region.

tk13
10-13-2004, 08:51 PM
WTF? here in San Antonio....the Red Sox/Yankees game is buried on Fox Sport Net...WTF is baseball thinking?? It took me like an hour to find the game......
You live near Houston. Most of the country is getting NY/Boston on Fox... most of the country save the St. Louis/Houston regions has the Cards game on Fox Sports Net.

Deberg_1990
10-13-2004, 08:52 PM
Yeah letting fox carry both games scheduled at the same time was a big mistake. I imagine the Cards Astros game is on Fox Sports everywhere outside of their region.


Dumb Dumb Dumb decision by MLB for letting these games both start at the same time....but I guess thats why MLB is MLB...and the NFL is the NFL....why didnt they rotate the games and play on different days? Isnt that what they usually do?

tk13
10-13-2004, 08:58 PM
Dumb Dumb Dumb decision by MLB for letting these games both start at the same time....but I guess thats why MLB is MLB...and the NFL is the NFL....why didnt they rotate the games and play on different days? Isnt that what they usually do?
This is the only time two games overlap like this... I'm not quite sure why it's being done like this today.

And while MLB isn't perfect, they aren't out there dishing fines for people who honor fallen teammates and crap like that... all professional leagues make mistakes.

ENDelt260
10-13-2004, 09:04 PM
Swell. Now they're playing the "Let's get it started" song. Like we didn't get enough of it during the NBA playoffs.

Miles
10-13-2004, 09:33 PM
Ugh get Izzy in there now and finish this shit.

KcMizzou
10-13-2004, 09:34 PM
Swell. Now they're playing the "Let's get it started" song. Like we didn't get enough of it during the NBA playoffs. God, how I hate the Black Eyed Peas. :shake:

Miles
10-13-2004, 09:37 PM
1 Down 3 to go.

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 09:38 PM
The stros are a dang good team. They took 10 runs on the chin and didn't give up and forced us to being in our "A" closer to finish it off. You can see why they have made it this far.

Hats off to the stros. :thumb:

ENDelt260
10-13-2004, 09:39 PM
God, how I hate the Black Eyed Peas. :shake:
I didn't until the NBA playoffs.

I'm keeping my mind open for future music from them.

KcMizzou
10-13-2004, 09:42 PM
I didn't until the NBA playoffs.

I'm keeping my mind open for future music from them. They remind me of the Fugees.... only not nearly as good.

J Diddy
10-13-2004, 09:42 PM
To all you die hard cardinal fans check here to see who my boss is

diddy's boss (http://www.mosportshalloffame.com/inducteebio.asp?inducteeid=293)

I had tickets to go the game but I didn't go

Frazod
10-13-2004, 09:43 PM
Wow. What a game.

I guess it was just about what all the talking heads expected - high scoring with Houston's bullpen getting creamed. It was good to see Rolen finally get a hit, but it was bad to see our bullpen get roughed up a bit.

The Astros are tough as hell. I'm glad we came out on top. :thumb:

Frazod
10-13-2004, 09:45 PM
Dumb Dumb Dumb decision by MLB for letting these games both start at the same time....but I guess thats why MLB is MLB...and the NFL is the NFL....why didnt they rotate the games and play on different days? Isnt that what they usually do?

I'd say the advertisers are the big losers here. I think I might have seen three entire commercials all night. Lot of money to drop on ads when everybody's flipping between games.

BigRedChief
10-13-2004, 09:46 PM
Marty is your boss? I use to see him at SMS games all the time. You can get tickets to the game? Let me have em man.... I am worthy! :wayne:

J Diddy
10-13-2004, 09:49 PM
Marty is your boss? I use to see him at SMS games all the time. You can get tickets to the game? Let me have em man.... I am worthy! :wayne:


Marty's a cool guy, really cool. He's gotten me 2 primo tickets to Chiefs games this year and last, supposed to get me tickets to the Broncs game too.

Great guy to work for.

tk13
10-13-2004, 09:50 PM
I'd say the advertisers are the big losers here. I think I might have seen three entire commercials all night. Lot of money to drop on ads when everybody's flipping between games.
Well the rest of us see a Burger King commercial everytime you post, so I guess we all see advertisements in the end. :)

Frazod
10-13-2004, 09:51 PM
Well the rest of us see a Burger King commercial everytime you post, so I guess we all see advertisements in the end. :)

I like Wendy's. Screw Burger King. :harumph:

KcMizzou
10-13-2004, 09:52 PM
I like Wendy's. Screw Burger King. :harumph: As long as I don't wake up next to you... I have no problem with your avatar.

J Diddy
10-13-2004, 09:53 PM
As long as I don't wake up next to you... I have no problem with your avatar.


are you saying you're a cheap drunk?

KcMizzou
10-13-2004, 09:54 PM
are you saying you're a cheap drunk? Yes.


But I've never been quite that drunk.

Frazod
10-13-2004, 09:55 PM
As long as I don't wake up next to you... I have no problem with your avatar.

I'm sure you've woken up to worse..... :D

J Diddy
10-13-2004, 09:55 PM
Yes.


But I've never been quite that drunk.

thank god.

J Diddy
10-13-2004, 09:56 PM
I'm sure you've woken up to worse..... :D
ROFL

KcMizzou
10-13-2004, 09:56 PM
I'm sure you've woken up to worse..... :D ROFL

No really I haven't... They were all female. That has to count for something.

tk13
10-14-2004, 02:22 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/9912627.htm

La Russa is so smart he does dumb things
JOE POSNANSKI
Kansas City Star

ST. LOUIS — Tony La Russa can't help himself. The man is in a classic fight with himself, a constant fight to get the heck out of his own way. He has put together a fabulous St. Louis Cardinals team that can beat teams a dozen ways — a classic, old-fashioned team that catches the ball and runs the bases with aggression and always makes the smart play and hits home runs and closes out games in the late innings.

Now, all he needs to do is just let them play.

But “just letting them play” might be the toughest challenge of all for La Russa.

You could see it Wednesday night, even in the Cardinals 10-7 NLCS victory over the Houston Astros. You could see it late, with the Cardinals leading by six runs in the eighth inning, and fans filing to the exits.

La Russa's mind was whirring.

Oh yeah, listen to it whir. You could almost hear it from up in the press box. La Russa is one of the smartest managers in baseball, which is one of those classic mixed blessings. He is smart enough to adjust, play certain hunches, analyze the most in-depth statistics. He is smart enough to get George Will to write about his genius. He is smart enough teach you more about baseball in a 15-minute discussion than just about anyone I've met.

He's also smart enough to just start hitting his pitcher eighth in the lineup even though no one in the history of the game ever thought that was a good idea.

Yes, you just knew that La Russa mind was going full-speed. He had reliever Dan Haren start the eighth inning.

Haren had an OK season. He was the perfect guy to pitch in the eighth inning of a game that had already been blown wide open. Haren gave up a single to Carlos Beltran, no big deal. He then struck out Jeff Bagwell.

He got ready to face Lance Berkman.

And suddenly you saw Tony La Russa walking to the mound.

Why? St. Louis led 10-4. Why would La Russa make a change here? And the answer is, of course, he simply cannot help it. He cannot leave things alone; he cannot stand back; he cannot just let the game play out. It is his fatal flaw.

Before the season began, in spring training, a few of his players met with him and asked him to lighten up, back off just a little, let the guys play.

And La Russa, to some level, agreed.

“I said, ‘The club is yours,' ” La Russa told St. Louis columnist Bernie Miklasz.

And that has been the key to this team. La Russa backed off. And the Cardinals have played beautiful baseball all year long. They won 105 games without great starting pitching. How do you do that? By doing everything right. And I mean everything.

“They were by far the best team we saw all year,” Royals general manager Allard Baird said. “They took the extra base. They caught everything. That lineup makes you throw strikes, and they punish bad pitching. They have a great bullpen.

"That's just one great baseball team.”

That was a testament to La Russa.

He did not exactly become Captain Loosey or anything. But he did change. He did ease up. He did his best managing job.

So what happened in the first game of the NLCS? He yanked Haren in the eighth inning, up six runs, and brings in lefty Ray King. Why? Because Berkman, a switch-hitter, is not as good from the right side as he is from the left. In a one-run game, this move might — might — make some sense. In a six-run game, it makes absolutely none.

Naturally, Berkman hits a two-run homer to left field. Now the lead is four.

The next batter was Jeff Kent who, over the last four years, has absolutely laid into left-handed pitching. La Russa decides to let King pitch to Kent — remember, he's trying to let his players play — and sure enough King gets Kent to pop out to first.

And then, stunningly, La Russa came out again.

He had decided to bring in righty Julian Tavarez to face Morgan Ensberg.

Tavarez gave up a homer and single in the ninth, and La Russa had no choice but to bring in his closer, Jason Isringhausen, to pick up an LS — La Russa Save. There's an old hockey line that only Jesus saves more than the great old goalie Bernie Parent. Well, no one has set up more saves with unnecessary moves than Tony La Russa.

Obviously, none of these moves kept the Cardinals from winning the game. But it was still hard to watch. It was Overmanaging 101, a course that La Russa has been teaching for many years. Now, it's possible that this Cardinals team is so good, they can overcome La Russa's constant need to make a move.

But La Russa might want to think about letting his players play again.

That worked pretty well this year.

BigRedChief
10-14-2004, 06:38 AM
Man I tell ya it can be really frustrating watching his moves but the frigging bottom line is that he's one of the most intelligent managers that have ever been in the game. He was a successful lawyer graduating from some Harvard type school but gave it up to pursue his dream to manage.

He defintly has been over thinking the game for years. But.....he has got 3 MVP candidates to get along and play their best. Somehow made pitchers of a very average pitching staff and has them 3 wins from our first World Series in 17 years. That gets him some slack. :thumb:

BigRedChief
10-14-2004, 07:40 AM
good article here about the cards:
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20041014&content_id=894029&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp

Game 1 winners are usually NLCS winners
The winner of Game 1 has gone on to win the NLCS in the last 11 postseasons. The Cardinals won Game 1 in 1982 and 1987 and went to the World Series, but they lost Game 1 in 2000 and 2002. Well, you know the rest of that story.

ROYC75
10-14-2004, 07:48 AM
Houston has no pen !

MarcBulger
10-14-2004, 08:05 AM
Posnanski has been watching to many Roylas games the past few years. You change pitchers for sevearl reasons, to get outs, and also to get game time experience. For the most part these pitchers have not even been in post season. Your ahead 99% chance you will win, so give some time to let people get there nerves out. I have never really been a huge LaRussa fan, I watch 99% of the Birds games and cannot remeber a time in the season where he has done a bad job.

BigRedChief
10-14-2004, 08:07 AM
Houston has no pen !

Jeezzz did you see the Cardinals pitching? We got a legitamate closer but our starting pitching is average at best. Middle relief is okay usually. We lost our best pitcher this year 2 weeks before the start of the playoffs....nah pitching isnt going to decide the series. Who scores the most runs will. Kind of like having the Chiefs play the Rams. Expect to see a high scoring game.

homey
10-14-2004, 08:20 AM
Cardinal's bullpen is the deepest of the 4 teams remaining. Don't know what that was last night, but it won't happen again. By the way, what did I say about Houston's middle relief?

BigRedChief
10-14-2004, 06:14 PM
Man its raining...Dang :banghead: they don't get this in it will give them a chance to get Clemons in there tommorrow...

Frazod
10-14-2004, 06:24 PM
Man its raining...Dang :banghead: they don't get this in it will give them a chance to get Clemons in there tommorrow...

It would take a lot to call this one off. Doesn't look like it's raining THAT hard.

I guess I do have time to go get some dinner, though.

VonneMarie
10-14-2004, 06:46 PM
Let's go Stros!

VonneMarie
10-14-2004, 06:51 PM
Another Beltran homer. 1-0 Stros.

BigRedChief
10-14-2004, 06:53 PM
Dammit Royals!:cuss:

4th and Long
10-14-2004, 07:46 PM
BANG! YARD! 2-0, Stros'! PBJ

BigRedChief
10-14-2004, 07:51 PM
It's like the early touchdown lead in football. May mean something later. Right now its just the early lead.......

Frazod
10-14-2004, 08:09 PM
This sure is an ugly game so far. It is a miracle that Morris has not been shelled, and the offense must be water-logged. They're making Munro look like Clemens. :grr:

jiveturkey
10-14-2004, 08:10 PM
It's like the early touchdown lead in football. May mean something later. Right now its just the early lead.......That's deep. :hmmm:

VonneMarie
10-14-2004, 08:13 PM
This sure is an ugly game so far. It is a miracle that Morris has not been shelled, and the offense must be water-logged. They're making Munro look like Clemens. :grr:
Really? I think it's beautiful.

3-0 Stros'

Frazod
10-14-2004, 08:13 PM
I hope Morris can get out of this inning. And I hope we don't have see him again after that.

Frazod
10-14-2004, 08:13 PM
I hope Morris can get out of this inning. And I hope we don't have see him again after that.

Strike that - Morris needs to go NOW. :cuss:

VonneMarie
10-14-2004, 08:18 PM
I really wish Houston would knock St Loser in their mouth already. :rolleyes:

Miles
10-14-2004, 08:19 PM
Strike that - Morris needs to go NOW. :cuss:

That better be the end of his night. We are very fortunate to only be down 3-0 right now with how he was pitching.

Now we just need to light up Pete F**king Monroe :cuss:

Frazod
10-14-2004, 08:23 PM
That better be the end of his night. We are very fortunate to only be down 3-0 right now with how he was pitching.

Now we just need to light up Pete F**king Monroe :cuss:

He's done - thank God. We could easily be down by 10 at this point.

Of course, he certainly didn't get any help from the offense.

Frazod
10-14-2004, 08:27 PM
That's better. 2 run jack for Larry. Now 3-2.

Frazod
10-14-2004, 08:29 PM
Albert singles, Houston goes to the bullpen. Cool. :thumb:

Frazod
10-14-2004, 08:33 PM
ROLEN 2 RUN BOMB! CARDS TAKE THE LEAD!

:thumb:

tk13
10-14-2004, 08:38 PM
The Astros have no middle relief. None. They might as well have left Munro out there to get it done or hang himself. Garner is probably going to get skewered tonight on ESPN and everywhere else.

BigRedChief
10-14-2004, 08:39 PM
Their middle relief against our middle relief...I'll take that match up.

tk13
10-14-2004, 08:42 PM
Their middle relief against our middle relief...I'll take that match up.
He says as Steve Kline gets yanked... :)

Frazod
10-14-2004, 08:42 PM
Well, Kline fell on his ass in a hurry. Two on, no outs, and the hook.

Frazod
10-14-2004, 08:43 PM
He says as Steve Kline gets yanked... :)

I don't know if I would have yanked him on two weak ground ball hits. If either ball is hit five feet in either direction, they're both outs.

Frazod
10-14-2004, 08:50 PM
Houston strands 3 more. Still 4-3, Cards.

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:09 PM
Game tied. :cuss:

Miles
10-14-2004, 09:15 PM
Those were some ugly looking hacks Cedeno just made.

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:16 PM
Those were some ugly looking hacks Cedeno just made.

WTF isn't Mabry getting any chances? :banghead:

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:19 PM
Well, that sucked ass. :cuss:

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:31 PM
Home run Pujols! Cards retake the lead, 5-4.

Miles
10-14-2004, 09:32 PM
BACK to BACK SHOTS :thumb:

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:33 PM
ROLEN HOMERS! Now 6-4! PBJ

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:44 PM
Why did I know this wouldn't be easy? :shake:

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:45 PM
One down. Beltran on first.

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:46 PM
2 down. Kent at the plate.

Crush
10-14-2004, 09:47 PM
One out to go.

Crush
10-14-2004, 09:48 PM
Kent walked. Beltran on second and Kent on first. One out to go.

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:49 PM
Kent walks. 2 on, two outs.

Crush
10-14-2004, 09:50 PM
Game over.

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:50 PM
CARDS WIN

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:51 PM
Wow. That was GRUELING.

Houston outpitched and outhit us, but still a win. I'll take it.

Frazod
10-14-2004, 09:53 PM
I really wish Houston would knock St Loser in their mouth already. :rolleyes:

Perhaps.

But not tonight..... nlm

BigRedChief
10-14-2004, 09:57 PM
The Stros are a great team. They should have folded but they batled back. Put a scare into me. Mucho Respect :thumb:

But on the other hand we have scored 16 runs in 2 games against a great team. That ain't chopped liver either. :p

Crush
10-14-2004, 10:00 PM
What a game.

Miles
10-14-2004, 10:00 PM
Wow that was a really intense game. Izzy scared the shit out of me in the 9th but luckily pulled it off. Morris's outing tonight makes me miss Carpenter even more...

We now only need to take 1 our of 2 againts Houston's aces and we are set. I like our chances on sat with the Clemens - Suppan matchup.

Crush
10-14-2004, 10:03 PM
Houston you're my only hope of not seeing a Yankees/Cardinals World Series. So start winning!!! :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

Frazod
10-14-2004, 10:08 PM
Houston you're my only hope of not seeing a Yankees/Cardinals World Series. So start winning!!! :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:
You know, it's not like the Cards go to the World Series every year. In fact, they haven't been since 1987. They haven't won it since 1982.

I really don't understand lumping them in with the Yankmees.

I know many of you hate the Cards just because you hate St. Louis, but remember, this is a team from a small midwestern city (the smallest city of the remaining teams by a vast margin) with half the payroll of New York.

They aren't the Yankmees.

BigRedChief
10-14-2004, 10:18 PM
Wow that was a really intense game. Izzy scared the shit out of me in the 9th but luckily pulled it off. Morris's outing tonight makes me miss Carpenter even more...

We now only need to take 1 our of 2 againts Houston's aces and we are set. I like our chances on sat with the Clemens - Suppan matchup.

Yep thats the way the "pundits" called it and its looking that way. If Houston could steal one of these first 2 games they would have the upper hand. If we can steal one of those first 2 games it's a done deal. World Series Baby :thumb:

I also like the Suppan - Clemons match up. I think thats our best chance to get one of those 2 games. If I remember right the Cardinals beat Clemons this year didn't they?:hmmm:

Miles
10-14-2004, 10:28 PM
I also like the Suppan - Clemons match up. I think thats our best chance to get one of those 2 games. If I remember right the Cardinals beat Clemons this year didn't they?:hmmm:

Yeah i looked it up and Clemons went 2-1 against the cards with one of those wins being in that late season series.

I really like our chances to take one of these with games as our hitters do a great job running up a starter's pitch count. Even againts aces. If we can get to their pen but the 6th or so and they dont have much of a lead we stand a great chance.

Ari Chi3fs
10-14-2004, 10:55 PM
How many Homers by Beltran is it gonna take to get Houston a victory over these fuggin Cards?

Frazod
10-14-2004, 10:56 PM
How many Homers by Beltran is it gonna take to get Houston a victory over these fuggin Cards?

Hopefully, more than he hits. That guy is a f#cking pain in the ass.

htismaqe
10-15-2004, 05:17 AM
You know, it's not like the Cards go to the World Series every year. In fact, they haven't been since 1987. They haven't won it since 1982.

I really don't understand lumping them in with the Yankmees.

I know many of you hate the Cards just because you hate St. Louis, but remember, this is a team from a small midwestern city (the smallest city of the remaining teams by a vast margin) with half the payroll of New York.

They aren't the Yankmees.

:clap:

BigRedChief
10-15-2004, 07:26 AM
You know, it's not like the Cards go to the World Series every year. In fact, they haven't been since 1987. They haven't won it since 1982.

I really don't understand lumping them in with the Yankmees.

I know many of you hate the Cards just because you hate St. Louis, but remember, this is a team from a small midwestern city (the smallest city of the remaining teams by a vast margin) with half the payroll of New York.

They aren't the Yankmees.

Yeah, What he said. :thumb:

The Cardinals have hated the frigging Yankees since the 1930's and have been post season rivals ever since. Please don't lump our team in with those scum suckers.

ROYC75
10-15-2004, 07:29 AM
Houston with no bull pen has killed them, they let one get away last night.

As for Carlos Beltran, the guy is looking good, he wants a fat paycheck in the off season.

htismaqe
10-15-2004, 08:46 AM
Beltran is simply amazing.

I have to admit, it makes me feel VERY sad for KC and the Royals everytime the TV announcers say things like "Where did this guy come from?" or "NOW everybody gets to see just how good this guy is."

Chief Henry
10-15-2004, 09:02 AM
Beltran is simply amazing.

I have to admit, it makes me feel VERY sad for KC and the Royals everytime the TV announcers say things like "Where did this guy come from?" or "NOW everybody gets to see just how good this guy is."


I beleave with beltran lighting it up this off season will only shed MORE
light on the dam PROBLEM in baseball. I don't follow the Royals alot
since I'm a CARDINAL fan, but I would think some of your Royals fans could put togeather one hell of an All-Star team with the players the Royals have lost over the last 10 years or so. If Beltran does go to the
Bronx Bommers, that wouldjust be a shame. Baseball needs some help.

As far the Cardinals, its good to have ROLEN back. Walker, Pujols and
Rolen are just incredibly tuff to shut down for an intire game. Edmonds is just to dam streaky for my liking, but he has come through alot this season with HUGE clutch hits, like that three run triple in game one of the NLCS...

homey
10-15-2004, 09:15 AM
I think the Royals problem is the Royals. Why overpay Sweeney the way they did? If they didn't they could keep younger players. INstead they overspend on injury-prone first basemen when that is the most stacked position in their minor league system. bad business.

ROYC75
10-15-2004, 09:17 AM
What soiled the relationship with Beltran and the Royals was his holdout during the injury the one year. Carlos was young, inmature and wasn't a proven product, even thou he had the 1 good year. Had he showed more maturity, maybe KC would have given him the contract instead of Swenney !

Stinger
10-15-2004, 09:29 AM
I think Morris is going to be the weak link. He has not showed me anything so far. But there is always hope. Go Card!! :toast:


This sure is an ugly game so far. It is a miracle that Morris has not been shelled, and the offense must be water-logged. They're making Munro look like Clemens. :grr:
Strike that - Morris needs to go NOW. :cuss:

That better be the end of his night. We are very fortunate to only be down 3-0 right now with how he was pitching.


Hate it when I am right, I hope Tony has learned his lesson with Morris ( I doubt it) he just dosn't have it anymore.

Go Cards :toast:

BigRedChief
10-15-2004, 09:44 AM
Hate it when I am right, I hope Tony has learned his lesson with Morris ( I doubt it) he just dosn't have it anymore.

Go Cards :toast:

He's the game 6 starter. I agree though he's lost it. He had that killer curve ball. Thats why he was successful. Without that he a wild Greg Maddux. But alas....they will not dump him this series.

BigRedChief
10-16-2004, 08:22 AM
new articles on espn.com about the series:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2004/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1902347

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2004/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1902818

mlb.com:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041015&content_id=895830&vkey=ds2004news&fext=.jsp

nice beltran article:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20041015&content_id=895456&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp

10 things to chew on before the game:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041015&content_id=895576&vkey=ds2004news&fext=.jsp

BigRedChief
10-16-2004, 09:05 AM
maybe we should tell this Stros player about this board:

Even the Astros concede that the Cardinals aren't just some rinky-dink local-yokel Midwestern franchise that connects only with a few thousand loyal rooters down at the barbecue joint.

"St. Louis has a huge following," Ausmus said. "The problem is, they have the nicest fans in the universe. So there's not enough squabbling."

BigRedChief
10-16-2004, 01:46 PM
Clemons is looking tough. Seems to have the Cards #. From an espn article.

Clemens made his final start of the season at home against the Cardinals, allowing four runs in six innings. In his previous two starts vs. St. Louis, the 42-year-old had surrendered just two runs in 13 2/3 innings.

Miles
10-16-2004, 02:28 PM
Nice HR by Walker on the first pitch to him :thumb:

Up early 1-0

BigRedChief
10-16-2004, 02:48 PM
rough first inning for suppan. the key to these first two games is getting to Houstons middle relief pitchers. We can score 6 runs in about 10 mintues on those guys.

BigRedChief
10-16-2004, 02:56 PM
Dang 2 homers off Clemons in the first 2 innings. A homer off Suppan you could expect but Clemons in a playoff game in front of the home town crowd, family, friends etc...not very Hall of Famer esq... It's early but that bodes well for us...

tk13
10-16-2004, 02:57 PM
I think the Royals problem is the Royals. Why overpay Sweeney the way they did? If they didn't they could keep younger players. INstead they overspend on injury-prone first basemen when that is the most stacked position in their minor league system. bad business.
The fanbase was about to quit if Sweeney wasn't re-signed.... the team had just lost Damon and Dye, and next up on the free agency list was Mike Sweeney. It's weird really, because at the time everyone and their dog was clamoring to re-sign Sweeney or else, now many of the same Royals fans are like "What were they doing? That was stupid." I don't have a problem with criticism, but I can't stand hypocrisy. At the time, Sweeney was a .330-25 HR-100 RBI guy... Considering guys like A-Rod were getting 20-25 million a year at the time for only slightly better production (except for in homers)... the Royals paid him market value. Now he's come down with back problems. He probably would've put up .300-30-120 this year if he'd stay healthy, but it's impossible to just "get over" a back problem. It's something they've gotta figure out or find somebody that wants to trade for him. I like the guy, he's a great major league hitter, and he's usually outstanding with guys in scoring position.

Demonpenz
10-16-2004, 03:41 PM
imo i would rather have beltran than an overpaid DH

BigRedChief
10-16-2004, 03:43 PM
The cards didnt score but worked Clemons for 29 pitches that last inning. They keep it close and get past Clemons...as they say in Texas wooooaaahhhhhh Doooggggies!PBJ

tk13
10-16-2004, 04:30 PM
Clemens looked out of this world over the last 3 innings... pretty amazing. He made Roger Cedeno look like a fool up there....

tk13
10-16-2004, 04:34 PM
Also interesting move by LaRussa, he pinch hit for Suppan with nobody on and two out, with Clemens on fire. Suppan only threw 92 pitches and had been pretty much lights out since the first inning.

Miles
10-16-2004, 04:52 PM
F#cking Beltran :cuss:

tk13
10-16-2004, 04:53 PM
Beltran homers again... 7th of the postseason, leading off against Haren in his second inning of work. He's one homer shy of Bonds record for homers in a postseason. 4-2 Astros. I still don't like that move of pulling Suppan early, made Haren have to work two full innings....

Demonpenz
10-16-2004, 04:54 PM
i wouldn't have mined keeping beltran instead of weeney

Demonpenz
10-16-2004, 05:00 PM
Opps! King gets rocked

VonneMarie
10-16-2004, 05:04 PM
F#cking Beltran :cuss:
Don't ya just miss him? :D

tk13
10-16-2004, 05:23 PM
Astros win, 5-2.... Cards lead the series 2-1, Marquis vs. Oswalt tomorrow. Astros had to have this one. I thought this was one the Cards would steal with Suppan pitching as well as he has, but it just didn't happen today, only Suppan's second road loss all year (both vs. Houston against Clemens oddly enough). Marquis probably has to pitch much, much better than he did in the division series to avoid this thing getting tied up again...

Miles
10-16-2004, 05:24 PM
Damn Lidge was trowing some nasty stuff.

Demonpenz
10-16-2004, 05:24 PM
well TK what do you see happining in the red sox game?

tk13
10-16-2004, 05:27 PM
well TK what do you see happining in the red sox game?
I see a bunch of teams playing baseball. Guys are going to pitch the baseball, and there are guys that will try to hit the baseball. Whoever hits the ball the best to score more runs will probably end up winning the ballgame.

tk13
10-16-2004, 05:28 PM
Damn Lidge was trowing some nasty stuff.
Yeah that slider is sick.

Demonpenz
10-16-2004, 05:28 PM
sounds good too me, i hope the red sox win, but i know it will be just won game and they will probably loose eventually

tk13
10-16-2004, 05:30 PM
sounds good too me, i hope the red sox win, but i know it will be just won game and they will probably loose eventually
I'm afraid Kevin Brown is going to pitch a lights out game. The Yankees pitching was decent during the season, but they've suddenly become lights out in the playoffs. You knew they'd pitch better but now guys like Mussina and Lieber have gone from decent 4.50 ERA-type pitchers to guys who looked better than Clemens today.

whoman69
10-16-2004, 06:04 PM
I see a bunch of teams playing baseball. Guys are going to pitch the baseball, and there are guys that will try to hit the baseball. Whoever hits the ball the best to score more runs will probably end up winning the ballgame.
This is the perfect post except I don't think 2 teams qualifies as a bunch in most instances. It had real potential for Chiefsplanet genious though.

Chiefaholic
10-16-2004, 06:18 PM
I see a bunch of teams playing baseball. Guys are going to pitch the baseball, and there are guys that will try to hit the baseball. Whoever hits the ball the best to score more runs will probably end up winning the ballgame.


LOL.... Sounds like John Madden commentating a baseball game. Rep on the way

tk13
10-16-2004, 06:35 PM
This is the perfect post except I don't think 2 teams qualifies as a bunch in most instances. It had real potential for Chiefsplanet genious though.
You're right. Matter of fact, after watching the first two games and one inning of this series, I think it's safe to say that there's really only one team out there playing baseball.

BigRedChief
10-16-2004, 07:04 PM
LOL.... Sounds like John Madden commentating a baseball game. Rep on the way

I thought that Madden called a good Chiefs Monday night game. He's the one responsible for our chuckling over Ray Ray saying there are two of them blocking me.


<HR SIZE=1>Originally Posted by Miles Teg
Damn Lidge was trowing some nasty stuff. <HR SIZE=1>

Man what was that. Made those Major Leaguers look like little leagers.

Miles
10-17-2004, 03:39 PM
Cards up 4-1 in the bottom of the 3rd. Well at least something good is hapening today.

VonneMarie
10-17-2004, 03:44 PM
Here comes the 'Stros...

VonneMarie
10-17-2004, 03:44 PM
4-3 on a Berkman double!

VonneMarie
10-17-2004, 03:47 PM
4-3 Cards on to the 4th...

Chief Henry
10-17-2004, 04:09 PM
5-3 Cardinals...This series is so much better than the Bosox-Yanks Series.

BigRedChief
10-17-2004, 06:01 PM
Well it's went the way most have it figured. 2-2 after 4 games. Now it will get interesting. Now we will see who wants it more.

WilliamTheIrish
10-17-2004, 07:41 PM
When the inning ended, Tavarez bent over as he walked to the dugout and appeared to berate himself. His antics were replayed on the stadium scoreboard, and that bothered Cardinals manager Tony La Russa.

``I think ever since I've been around, since 1996, the Astros are as classy an organization as anything I've met in the National League,'' he said. ``But even Sinatra clears his throat, and I think that was below their standards and that was disappointing.''

Tony is such a tool. He's upset at the Stro's cause his pitcher acted like an azzmonkey?

tk13
10-17-2004, 07:45 PM
Tavarez lost it out there, I don't know... after seeing LaRussa have the quick hook in the first 3 games I'm surprised he left Tavarez in as long as he did, but he got out of his own jam I guess. He did go pretty whacko out there though...

Best of 3 series now, and the Cards will have to beat either Clemens or Oswalt to advance. The Astros were fortunate enough to get the Cards in the situation they needed. I guess it helps to have someone like Beltran who is in another universe right now...

VonneMarie
10-17-2004, 08:19 PM
Red Sox just took the lead, 3-2 top 6th..

BigRedChief
10-17-2004, 09:36 PM
Tavarez lost it out there, I don't know... after seeing LaRussa have the quick hook in the first 3 games I'm surprised he left Tavarez in as long as he did, but he got out of his own jam I guess. He did go pretty whacko out there though...

Best of 3 series now, and the Cards will have to beat either Clemens or Oswalt to advance. The Astros were fortunate enough to get the Cards in the situation they needed. I guess it helps to have someone like Beltran who is in another universe right now...

As the resident Card homer I would disagree with you. It's just a 3 game series with 2 out of 3 in St. Louis. I knew we would have trouble with houston. They are the hottest team going into the playoffs. They have 2 very good pitchers and a great closer but their middle relief will be their downfall. They have got lucky the last 2 games in middle relief pitching. that will not hold up. It will burn them in one game. We will win the other game outright. Series over. :thumb:

Bearcat
10-18-2004, 07:00 AM
Tavarez lost it out there, I don't know... [QUOTE]

I don't know what his problem was going back to the dugout... I'd be thanking the Baseball Gods that I didn't give up more runs :shrug:


[QUOTE=BigRedChief]They have got lucky the last 2 games in middle relief pitching. that will not hold up.

Take it to the next step... the battle cry of St. Louis sports... "We beat ourselves!!"

:rolleyes:

I have another word for Carlos Beltran --- Good.

TEX
10-18-2004, 07:08 AM
As the resident Card homer I would disagree with you. It's just a 3 game series with 2 out of 3 in St. Louis. I knew we would have trouble with houston. They are the hottest team going into the playoffs. They have 2 very good pitchers and a great closer but their middle relief will be their downfall. They have got lucky the last 2 games in middle relief pitching. that will not hold up. It will burn them in one game. We will win the other game outright. Series over. :thumb:

Maybe, but maybe that also already happened in the first two games in St. Louis? Why is it that the Astros got "lucky" when they win, yet "luck" has nothing to do with a Cardinals win? :hmmm:

I was at the game yesterday and what a game it was for the KILLER BEES! Luck had nothing to do with it. The Stros made the plays they had to in order to win. I'm hoping the Astros can pull it out and go to the World Series for the first time in team history. And if not, this team has already achieved something special.

Go STROS! :thumb:

BigRedChief
10-18-2004, 07:10 AM
Take it to the next step... the battle cry of St. Louis sports... "We beat ourselves!!"

:rolleyes:

I have another word for Carlos Beltran --- Good.

Bearcat, If you have read my posts here I'm not one of the whiners complaining about a call. We were robbed etc.

Yes, Beltran is good. Dang Good but we all know that already. But Pujols isn't chopped liver either. We almost took the lead in the 9th. He hits one to the warning track that the outfielder stood under for 30 seconds waiting for it to come down. And we got a pretty good closer ourselfs.

If we win today it's all over. If not I like our chances at home. Houston is a good team and I think either one of these teams are going to take the Yanks.

The Cardinals have played with passion and had some clutch hits. Either way it turns out we have played good and had our chances to win. Thats all you can ask for as a fan.

Bearcat
10-18-2004, 11:30 AM
Bearcat, If you have read my posts here I'm not one of the whiners complaining about a call. We were robbed etc.

Yes, Beltran is good. Dang Good but we all know that already. But Pujols isn't chopped liver either. We almost took the lead in the 9th. He hits one to the warning track that the outfielder stood under for 30 seconds waiting for it to come down. And we got a pretty good closer ourselfs.

If we win today it's all over. If not I like our chances at home. Houston is a good team and I think either one of these teams are going to take the Yanks.

The Cardinals have played with passion and had some clutch hits. Either way it turns out we have played good and had our chances to win. Thats all you can ask for as a fan.


...but what Beltran did, or Pujols didn't do, isn't about luck... it's a combination of skill and physics. If anything, I'd call the Cardinals lucky for getting out of the Tavarez meltdown with a decent chance of coming back.

The feeling out of St. Louis just really gets to me, even though they have the same arrogance about all of their teams.... I was watching Fox Midwest before game one, and one guy picked the Cards in 5 and the other in 6, but both talked like it would be a sweep. Hell, you were talking about a WS like it was a done deal before the playoffs, and you're coming off like you have no doubt they'll beat the Astros and then go on to beat the Yankees.

Yeah, they're a scary team, but they can be beaten by more than themselves or luck..... the Astros, for starters.

Bearcat
10-18-2004, 11:32 AM
On another note, I can't believe baseball helped me get over my football depression yesterday... what is the world coming to? :p

WilliamTheIrish
10-18-2004, 11:53 AM
We almost took the lead in the 9th. He hits one to the warning track that the outfielder stood under for 30 seconds waiting for it to come down. And we got a pretty good closer ourselfs..

Ya and the DP ball that tavarez threw, if it had been left or right of 2bman it would have been a 2 run double.

What you saw as an "almost took the lead" any observer would call a long out. The Stros middle men shut down the Cards. Conversely the the middle relief of the Cards has been giving up bombs the last 3 games. Something to ponder.

The other thing that would bother me if I were a Card fan is that this series is tied 2-2 without significant contributions from either Bagwell or Biggio. It's been all Burkman and Beltran.

If those other find their stroke.... the Cards could be in trouble.

While I believe the Cards are the better squad, the Stros are making the Cards a tad uncomfortable. I like the Stros chances of winning.

BigRedChief
10-18-2004, 01:18 PM
Ya and the DP ball that tavarez threw, if it had been left or right of 2bman it would have been a 2 run double.

What you saw as an "almost took the lead" any observer would call a long out. The Stros middle men shut down the Cards. Conversely the the middle relief of the Cards has been giving up bombs the last 3 games. Something to ponder.

The other thing that would bother me if I were a Card fan is that this series is tied 2-2 without significant contributions from either Bagwell or Biggio. It's been all Burkman and Beltran.

If those other find their stroke.... the Cards could be in trouble.

While I believe the Cards are the better squad, the Stros are making the Cards a tad uncomfortable. I like the Stros chances of winning.

For every Bagwell/Biggio the Cards have Edmonds/Reterenia/Wommack not producing. Please don't think I'm making excuses. We had our chance we didn't get it done. High Fly ball to the warning track...half full/half empty.depends on the person.

tk13
10-18-2004, 05:36 PM
Just said on Fox that Julian Tavarez broke two bones in his left hand... but the Cardinals didn't say when he broke them. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure it out though....

ENDelt260
10-18-2004, 05:40 PM
Just said on Fox that Julian Tavarez broke two bones in his left hand... but the Cardinals didn't say when he broke them. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure it out though....
Baha. What a dumbass.

Carlos Beltran is his daddy. ;)

Frazod
10-18-2004, 05:40 PM
Just said on Fox that Julian Tavarez broke two bones in his left hand... but the Cardinals didn't say when he broke them. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure it out though....

What a f#cking douche.

I punched a wall once and broke a bone in my hand. Of course, I was 19, and wasn't a PITCHER ON A PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL TEAM TWO GAMES AWAY FROM THE WORLD SERIES.

:cuss:

tk13
10-18-2004, 05:46 PM
I guess supposedly Tavarez is still going to be able to pitch, but hard telling how effective he'll be. Couple that with the fact that Kline is having tendon problems or whatever it is with his hand, the list of healthy Cardinal relievers for the rest of this series is down to Eldred-King-Haren-Calero-Isringhausen....

ENDelt260
10-18-2004, 05:48 PM
I guess supposedly Tavarez is still going to be able to pitch, but hard telling how effective he'll be.

You think he'll be worse than his last outing?

Frazod
10-18-2004, 05:48 PM
I guess supposedly Tavarez is still going to be able to pitch, but hard telling how effective he'll be. Couple that with the fact that Kline is having tendon problems or whatever it is with his hand, the list of healthy Cardinal relievers for the rest of this series is down to Eldred-King-Haren-Calero-Isringhausen....

Well, we still have Rick Ankiel.

:deevee:

TEX
10-18-2004, 05:51 PM
On another note, I can't believe baseball helped me get over my football depression yesterday... what is the world coming to? :p

Exactly! :thumb: It was great to live in Houston and be a STROS fan yesterday. Hopefully they can go ALL THE WAY.

GO STROS !

tk13
10-18-2004, 05:52 PM
Well, we still have Rick Ankiel.

:deevee:
I've heard talk that if the Cards make the World Series, he might be put on the roster in place of Kline... I don't know about that though. You can't make roster moves in the middle of a series, so you're going to have to ride it out and try and get two wins with what bullpen you have left. If it comes down to game 7, or maybe even game 6, I imagine someone like Marquis might be able to come in out of the bullpen, but he's not really been too effective in the playoffs either...

TEX
10-18-2004, 05:53 PM
I've heard talk that if the Cards make the World Series, he might be put on the roster in place of Kline... I don't know about that though. You can't make roster moves in the middle of a series, so you're going to have to ride it out and try and get two wins with what bullpen you have left. If it comes down to game 7, or maybe even game 6, I imagine someone like Marquis might be able to come in out of the bullpen, but he's not really been too effective in the playoffs either...

I'm hoping that they won't even have to worry about it... :rolleyes:

tk13
10-18-2004, 09:11 PM
Weeee... there's another game tonight? j/k....

Still scoreless going to the bottom of the ninth, Beltran to lead off for Houston. Brad Lidge just made Albert Pujols look foolish...

WilliamTheIrish
10-18-2004, 09:11 PM
Good Christ!!

Lidge just punked the heart of the cards order. walker got overpowered, and Pujols just waved at the stuff Lidge threw at him.

WilliamTheIrish
10-18-2004, 09:13 PM
Beltran singles to lead off the 9th...

tk13
10-18-2004, 09:13 PM
Beltran with a leadoff single.... you know he's going to be looking to steal 2nd here.

VonneMarie
10-18-2004, 09:16 PM
That's why domes in baseball are retarded. :rolleyes:

WilliamTheIrish
10-18-2004, 09:19 PM
Horrible AB by Bagwell. Surprised they didn't even try to move the runner up.

WilliamTheIrish
10-18-2004, 09:23 PM
Kent's a DP waiting to happen...

tk13
10-18-2004, 09:24 PM
Jeff Kent walkoff homer! Astros win and take a 3-2 lead....

WilliamTheIrish
10-18-2004, 09:24 PM
WTF do I know?

VonneMarie
10-18-2004, 09:24 PM
'STROS WIN!

VonneMarie
10-18-2004, 09:25 PM
Cards and Yankmees getting punked on the same night, priceless. :)

WilliamTheIrish
10-18-2004, 09:27 PM
I tells ya, that job by Lidge in the 9th was just unreal. When Pujols is waving at your stuff, you know it's nasty.

Demonpenz
10-18-2004, 09:28 PM
well albert is overated *rolleyes*

dirk digler
10-18-2004, 09:29 PM
I haven't watched baseball all year until last night and tonight. 3 great games in the last 2 days.

What a jack by Kent and Ortiz is the man.

tk13
10-18-2004, 09:29 PM
I tells ya, that job by Lidge in the 9th was just unreal. When Pujols is waving at your stuff, you know it's nasty.
That guy's stuff is just sick. He's made some of the best hitters in the league look silly in the playoffs. The guy set a record for strikeouts by a reliever...

TEX
10-18-2004, 09:30 PM
GO STROS!

Taking 3 at home was HUGE - now let's end it in St. Louis. This year's Astros look much like the Marlins of last year. There was no doubt that the Stros could play with the Cards, now I hope they can close them out! :thumb:

WilliamTheIrish
10-18-2004, 09:30 PM
well albert is overated *rolleyes*

uh-huh. sure.

BigRedChief
10-18-2004, 09:39 PM
Very good game. We had the top of the line up in the 9th against their best closer. They had the top of their line up against our best closer. They got the hit we didn't. Beltran made another great play. Going home. The stros ain't the same team away from home as they are in Hoston. They are a great team. I think whoever wins this series beats the Yankees in the World Series.

BigRedChief
10-18-2004, 09:40 PM
well albert is overated *rolleyes*

Thats pretty funny for a Texan...:rolleyes:

ROYC75
10-18-2004, 09:41 PM
Astros .....

:thumb:

tk13
10-18-2004, 09:43 PM
I wonder if the Astros would think about throwing Munro back out there for game 6. If they did, they could have a fresh Clemens if it went to game 7 while having Oswalt to back him up in the bullpen...

TEX
10-18-2004, 09:43 PM
We Believe in the[B] KILLER BEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!B]

TEX
10-18-2004, 09:46 PM
I wonder if the Astros would think about throwing Munro back out there for game 6. If they did, they could have a fresh Clemens if it went to game 7 while having Oswalt to back him up in the bullpen...

They're already talking about that here in Houston. To me, that's the best option. Especially when you consider that throughout his whole career, Clemens has not fared that well going on 3 days rest... :hmmm:

tk13
10-18-2004, 09:48 PM
They're already talking about that here in Houston. To me, that's the best option. Especially when you consider that throughout his whole career, Clemens has not fared that well going on 3 days rest... :hmmm:
Yeah, if Munro hadn't pitched well before you don't do it, but he was real solid in game 2, the bullpen let him down. Starting Clemens, having Oswalt set up, and Lidge close would darn near guarantee a win if all three are on their game...

TEX
10-18-2004, 09:50 PM
Yeah, if Munro hadn't pitched well before you don't do it, but he was real solid in game 2, the bullpen let him down. Starting Clemens, having Oswalt set up, and Lidge close would darn near guarantee a win if all three are on their game...

Yep, plus Munro had a great outing in very cold/rainy weather. Again IMO, this is the best option.

Ari Chi3fs
10-19-2004, 03:48 AM
Man, I would be so happy if the Cards and Yanks got eliminated... it would SOOOOooo Own.

BigRedChief
10-19-2004, 06:47 AM
Man, I would be so happy if the Cards and Yanks got eliminated... it would SOOOOooo Own.

I would agree with you on the Yanks. But as far as the Cardinals being dumped in with the cesspool that is the Yankees....Low Blow. :spank:

ROYC75
10-19-2004, 06:49 AM
Big Red Chief might be happy he didn't get anybody to bet him !

BigRedChief
10-19-2004, 06:51 AM
I tells ya, that job by Lidge in the 9th was just unreal. When Pujols is waving at your stuff, you know it's nasty.

That is just sick good man. Pujols is probably the best hitter in baseball right now (after Bonds) and he is hot hitting close to 500 with 4 home runs in the series. And to come in and make him look that bad....Salu Lidge :thumb:

Bearcat
10-19-2004, 07:04 AM
When they had the intentional walk to get to Kent, one of the guys on Fox said that "Jeff Kent's the kind of guy that takes it personally when you intentionally walk the guy in front of him" ..... or something like that.... Great way to end the game :D

I'm still in disbelief that Beltran caught that line drive... the closeup doesn't do it justice... the original shot, before it zooms in, clearly shows Beltran being 4 miles away from the ball... unbelievable.

BigRedChief
10-19-2004, 07:09 AM
Big Red Chief might be happy he didn't get anybody to bet him !

Theres no welching here. Win/Lose it's all about your team. You'd like to win every single game but if you don't they are still your team. You still fly the colors. I guess thats why I can't stay away from Arrowhead. Even though I think we are done for the year. They are still my team and I'll be there to cheer them on, even in defeat.

ROYC75
10-19-2004, 07:10 AM
When they had the intentional walk to get to Kent, one of the guys on Fox said that "Jeff Kent's the kind of guy that takes it personally when you intentionally walk the guy in front of him" ..... or something like that.... Great way to end the game :D

I'm still in disbelief that Beltran caught that line drive... the closeup doesn't do it justice... the original shot, before it zooms in, clearly shows Beltran being 4 miles away from the ball... unbelievable.


I bet there are alot of Cardinal fans pissed at the Royals right now !

ROYC75
10-19-2004, 07:16 AM
F**k the Yankees,
Piss on the Sox,
The Cardinals stink,
And the Astros Rock ! :thumb:

BigRedChief
10-19-2004, 07:19 AM
F**k the Yankees,
Piss on the Sox,
The Cardinals stink,
And the Astros Rock ! :thumb:

You should change your handle to Walt Whitman. There may a new career on the horizon for Royc75. :p

ROYC75
10-19-2004, 07:22 AM
You should change your handle to Walt Whitman. There may a new career on the horizon for Royc75. :p


Use to be Slim Whitman, at least 25 years ago I was.

Chief Henry
10-19-2004, 08:00 AM
That is just sick good man. Pujols is probably the best hitter in baseball right now (after Bonds) and he is hot hitting close to 500 with 4 home runs in the series. And to come in and make him look that bad....Salu Lidge :thumb:


That Lidge has got some of the most wicked "stuff" I have ever seen as a closer. Its obviously to me that when you play Houston its a 7 inning game. Lidge has really impressed me....The Cardinals have looked liked whipped puppies vs Houstons pitching. Now STL has to answer with
Matt Morris on Wednesday. As a Cardinal fan i do NOT have alot of
confidence in Morris going up against the ROCKET. Its an uphill battle
for the El Birdo's. I'm being very pessimistic here, but i don't think you'll
see the Cardinals in the World Series. Royals fan will revel in that delight.

I beleave the mistake of the series will be Sunday nights base running blunder by Jason Marquis trying to stretch the single into a double.

Monday nights defensive highlights were a thing of beauty. A minority Professional baseball players could have made those plays last night.
You've got to give Houston a TON of credit. :banghead:

BigRedChief
10-19-2004, 08:17 AM
I beleave the mistake of the series will be Sunday nights base running blunder by Jason Marquis trying to stretch the single into a double.

Monday nights defensive highlights were a thing of beauty. A minority Professional baseball players could have made those plays last night.
You've got to give Houston a TON of credit. :banghead:
A base running mistake? Please Card fans don't go down that path. One play.One at bat doesn't decide a series. This is not 1985 and a bad call at first base. We have had our chances. We lost our best pitcher for the series. They lost Andy Pettit. We have no excuses.


You've got to give Houston a TON of credit. :banghead:
:thumb: thats the ticket. We had our best against their best in the last game. They had the clutch hitting and clutch pitching. Thats why they are up 3-2.

yunghungwell
10-19-2004, 08:18 AM
(. x. )(. x. )(. x. )(. x. ) Fox Sports!!!!!!

I don't have FX in my cable line up and I had to watch the damn Yankees/Red Sox piss fest. All I got to see was the last two outs of the top of the 9th and the knife my hart by Jeff frigging Kent.

Oh, the horror.

And the kicker, it was rainy and cloudy, so all I could get on the radio was a crackley Mike Shannon.

Stros fans rip me if you want...GO CARDINALS!!

ROYC75
10-19-2004, 09:17 AM
Last nights game was a pitchers duel to say the least !

The hot bats on both sides were cooled off by the pitchers, until the 9th .

Chief Henry
10-19-2004, 09:37 AM
[QUOTE=BigRedChief]A base running mistake? Please Card fans don't go down that path. One play.One at bat doesn't decide a series.

I don't have time right now to go into all the deails of that base running blunder by marquis, but it was a dam critical mistake at that point in the game. In close games and series every play is magnified by its out come.
I'm not going down the 1985 scenerio when I bring up what marquis did
on the base pads.

BIG_DADDY
10-19-2004, 09:48 AM
I want the Cards but that being said I was pretty stoked for Kent. I always like Jeff when he was in SF and he never took shit from anyone including Bonds. MOF if he thought Bonds was acting out at all he would jump in his face. Gotta like a guy like that. Good ol country boy that just likes riding his dirt bikes, hunting and being a guy in general.

ChiTown
10-19-2004, 09:52 AM
My wife is a Houston native and a huge 'Stro's fan. I have adopted them (by marriage, a long time ago) as my 2nd team. It certainly doesn't hurt my ability to cheer, when they are playing the Tards.

GO 'STRO'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BigRedChief
10-19-2004, 10:01 AM
[QUOTE=BigRedChief]A base running mistake? Please Card fans don't go down that path. One play.One at bat doesn't decide a series.

I don't have time right now to go into all the deails of that base running blunder by marquis, but it was a dam critical mistake at that point in the game. In close games and series every play is magnified by its out come.
I'm not going down the 1985 scenerio when I bring up what marquis did
on the base pads.
I agree with you. I was just wanting to head off at the pass any whining, complaining or excuses from Cardinals fans because we don't really have a leg to stand on. We had our chances. We got our chances the next two games at home. Let the "cards" fall where they may...

Bearcat
10-19-2004, 11:12 AM
We got our chances the next two games at home. Let the "cards" fall where they may...


Do you know why MLB has a home/home road/road/road home/home format (as opposed to home/home road/road home/road/home)??

It's the one sport where you can expect a team to play back-to-back nights despite travel in between, so I don't see why they would do it just for less travel. :shrug:

I just think if the home team wins every game, the higher seeded team shouldn't have to come back from 3-2 to win a series... had Backe pitched in St. Louis last night, I guarantee he wouldn't have shut them out.

Obviously, I'm glad it's worked out the way it has for Astros... being able to take a 3-2 lead... and for the Red Sox, not having to play Game 5 on the road........ but it still makes me wonder why baseball is different.

ENDelt260
10-19-2004, 12:11 PM
(. x. )(. x. )(. x. )(. x. ) Fox Sports!!!!!!

I don't have FX in my cable line up and I had to watch the damn Yankees/Red Sox piss fest.

You should be angry with your cable company... not Fox.

Fox didn't make the Yanks game last that long... what Fox DID do is pre-empt programming on another channel they run to show the other game simultaneously. Your cable company is who did you wrong.

ROYC75
10-19-2004, 12:24 PM
I agree with you. I was just wanting to head off at the pass any whining, complaining or excuses from Cardinals fans because we don't really have a leg to stand on. We had our chances. We got our chances the next two games at home. Let the "cards" fall where they may...


Props ! :thumb:


BTW, they will fall in St Louis ! :p

Crush
10-20-2004, 02:06 PM
Go Astros!

ENDelt260
10-20-2004, 02:10 PM
Heh... guess I coulda bumped this instead of starting a new thread.

Oh well.

Crush
10-20-2004, 02:17 PM
Nice steal by Beltran.