PDA

View Full Version : Phil Jackson new book on Kobe (interesting)


KingPriest2
10-12-2004, 04:13 PM
Balancing act
Excerpt: Bryant's trial, attitude took toll on Jackson, Lakers
Posted: Tuesday October 12, 2004 11:46AM; Updated: Tuesday October 12, 2004 1:06PM





Of all the star personalities on the Lakers, none tested Phil Jackson's patience and wits more than Kobe Bryant.
Penguin Press


ADVERTISER LINKS
Free Shaquille O'Neal Heat Jersey
Get your free Shaquille O'Neal Heat jersey today when you sign up for a no-risk...
www.everyfreegift.com

Shaquille O'Neal Items on eBay
Great deals and amazing selection on Shaquille O'Neal items. Visit eBay Sports,...
www.ebay.com

Shaquille O'Neal Autographed Memorabilia
Autographed Shaquille O'Neal memorabilia and collectibles at FansEdge. All...
www.fansedge.com

Shaquille O'Neal on LAUNCH
Check out Shaquille O'Neal. See artist photos, music videos, live interviews and...
launch.yahoo.com


In the following excerpt from Phil Jackson's upcoming book, The Last Season (published this fall by Penguin Press), the former Lakers coach describes the difficulties in trying to manage an increasingly petulant Kobe Bryant while trying to keep the Lakers focused on the season at hand, and not themselves.

AUGUST 26

Los Angeles

In the first six weeks after the Colorado story broke, I did not speak to Kobe [Bryant]. I called for a third and final time from Montana, but again the machine answered. He never returned my calls. Imagining the anxieties in his new life, I was not offended. Kobe will confide only with the people he trusts, and I certainly have never been a card-carrying member of that group. Mitch [Kupchak] and I wondered whether Kobe, as some people have suggested, might elect to sit out the entire season. We also talked about perhaps offering him a leave of absence. No professional athlete, I believe, has ever tried to perform at the top level of his sport for any extended length of time while fighting to keep his freedom. We didn't wonder for too long: we recently received word from Kobe's people that he intended to treat the upcoming season like any other. He must be in denial. This season, if nothing else, cannot possibly be like any other.

Finally, earlier this week, Kobe came into my office at our training facility in El Segundo. He looked weak and gaunt, down to maybe a little more than two hundred pounds, ten or fifteen less than his standard playing weight. Most NBA players participate in pick-up games during the off-season and work out daily to maintain the conditioning they'll need to compete in top form. Many use the time to develop another move or facet of their game, something, anything, to provide them with an edge over their opponents. Kobe has been playing basketball since he was three years old. He loves the game more than anything else. To realize that he hadn't been doing much physically was quite a shock.

"We really want you to survive this thing," I told him.

He smiled.

"Are you getting any help?" I asked. "Do you have anybody to talk to?"

"No."

"Kobe, you've got to have someone to talk to."

"We have a minister."

"That's a start."

We didn't rehash our old conflicts. We were here to talk about this year, this team, and the necessary adjustments to make this coming season successful. We didn't go over his case. We discussed how he was recuperating from the injuries to his knee and shoulder. The conversation was fairly harmless. Until out of nowhere it became anything but harmless.

"I'm not going to take any s--- from Shaq[uille O'Neal] this year," Kobe blurted out. "If he starts saying things in the press, I'll fire back. I'm not afraid to go up against him. I've had it."

I tried to calm him down as quickly as possible. "Kobe, we'll watch what's being said," I assured him. "We'll make allowances this year so you'll be able to do what you have to do and then come back to the team. Don't worry. We're hoping for the best."

I looked him right in the eye and gave him a hug. No matter what had gone on between us in the past, he is a member of the Laker family, and families stick together in difficult times. I was sure that at least for the moment, the anger he flashed toward Shaquille was neutralized. After we wrapped up, Kobe headed straight to see Mitch, who later informed me that nothing had been neutralized.

"Shaq didn't call me this summer," Kobe told Mitch.

"Kobe, I gave you a message from him," Mitch responded. "He invited you to Orlando to get away from everything."

"Shaq didn't have to leave a message through you," he said. "He knew how to reach me."

The exchange with Mitch revealed the underlying contradiction in Kobe's attitude toward Shaquille, a symbol, in fact, of a much broader dichotomy in his psyche. On the one hand, he insists that he doesn't "give a shit what the big guy does," but on the other, he shows he cares a great deal about what the big guy does. The meeting with Kobe reinforced an idea I had been contemplating since July, since Colorado, since everything changed. I decided to enlist a therapist to help me cope with what will surely be the most turbulent season of my coaching career. After receiving a few recommendations, I selected a therapist who has dealt with narcissistic behavior in the Los Angeles public school system. He'll be right at home here.

OCTOBER 21

Los Angeles

I wonder what Kobe is thinking. Yesterday he reiterated his intention to opt out of his contract and become an unrestricted free agent at the end of the season. I would never oppose a player's desire to explore his true market value -- if only the players in my era had been granted a similar freedom -- but I do question his sense of timing. Since the charges were made, Kobe has been treated remarkably well by the Lakers organization and the fans. He gave his press conference at Staples with our blessing, and we have agreed -- once we attained permission from the league to make sure the funds wouldn't be applied to the salary cap -- to cover a percentage of his private plane expenses to and from Colorado for court hearings. This will cost thousands of dollars. Kobe was unhappy with the type of plane that was selected; he wanted one with higher status.


After eight seasons together it was clear that Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant were headed in different directions.
Andrew D. Bernstein/NBAE via Getty Images
OCTOBER 28

Los Angeles

After going 3-5 during the exhibition season we started serious preparations a few days ago for, at long last, tonight's opener at Staples against the Dallas Mavericks. While we put together probably only one decent half in eight games, this is a veteran group that will know how to perform when everything matters. This being the Lakers, the longest-running soap opera in professional sports, there has been plenty of intrigue off the court over the last seventy-two hours. The stars of the newest episode? Why, Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal, of course. Their most recent feud had taken place in early 2001. After a two-year hiatus, the duo have reunited -- wrong word, I suppose -- for a sequel. I heard the news while checking out video of the Mavericks, trying to devise a game plan to disrupt their highly explosive attack. There was a knock at the door. Kobe walked in, anxious to talk about another highly explosive attack.

"He popped off," Kobe said. I did not have to ask who "he" was.

"You're kidding me," I said. "What did he say?"

"Did you read the paper? It's in the paper," he said.

It was in the paper, all right, Shaq suggesting that for the Lakers to be successful this season, Kobe, who played in only two exhibition contests, needed to rely more on his teammates until he regained his full strength.

"Is this what you're talking about?" I asked Kobe.

"Yeah," he said.

"Kobe, what's wrong with this?" I said. "Shaq is right. This is exactly what we want you to do." ....

But the anger did not disappear. After practice, Kobe fired back at Shaquille, through the press, exactly as he promised he would in August. "I definitely don't need advice on how to play my game," he said. "I know how to play my guard spot. He can worry about the low post." The war was on.

"He doesn't need advice on how to play his position," Shaquille said, "but he needs advice on how to play team ball. If it's going to be my team, I'll voice my opinion. If he don't like it, he can opt out."

On and on it went, the two protagonists in top form. Why don't the two get along? I have my theories, one of which is that Shaquille is making the type of money -- about $25 million a year -- that Kobe will never earn due to the changes in the league's collective bargaining agreement. No matter how many MVP trophies Kobe might collect in the decade ahead, there is nothing he can do about this discrepancy. In fact, the word I got was that Kobe was the only player in the entire league who voted against the agreement because of the cap it put on salaries.

The newspapers, needless to say, have treated the Kobe-Shaq feud as if it were the second coming of Cain versus Abel. IT'S THE RETURN OF STAR WARS was the headline in the [Los Angeles] Times. The story was destined to last for days and days, every basketball reporter in the city, maybe the nation, on a scavenger hunt for the next insult or innuendo to filter through the grapevine. There was only so much the Lakers could do to try to tame the beast, and whatever we were going to do, we had to act fast. I placed a call to the therapist. "Get them apart," he recommended. "Tell them that what they're saying about each other is not doing anybody any good." He mentioned a psychological term for this damage-control strategy: suppression. I took Shaq aside, and Mitch found Kobe.

"We can't have this," I told Shaq. "This isn't right. We're on a mission, and we want nothing more in the press." Shaq was not in the mood to suppress anything. "Phil, I have a stepbrother," he explained, "and when I was young, I was the outcast. Everything I did was wrong and everything he did was okay even though he did stuff that I could never get away with. If I tried to do it, they would have beaten the heck out of me. It's the same situation with Kobe. He ends up getting an operation from some doctor, who knows where, and I end up getting an operation and I'm the one criticized for it. I end up looking like crap in this thing, and he can do whatever he wants. I'd like to pound the chump." I empathized with Shaq but I told him the team needed to put the feud behind it as soon as possible. He agreed to keep quiet. This was another example of the basic difference between him and Kobe. Ask Shaq to do something and he'll say: "No, I don't want to do that." But after a little pouting, he will do it. Ask Kobe, and he'll say, "okay," and then he will do whatever he wants. Against our instructions, Kobe did an interview with ESPN, vowing that if he were to leave the Lakers at the end of the season, it would be due to Shaq's "childlike selfishness and jealousy." So much for suppression.

JANUARY 31

On the subject of losing Kobe, I wonder once again whether our relationship has deteriorated beyond repair. Earlier this week at El Segundo there was an incident at practice. On the way to the court, I asked Kobe, still nursing a sore shoulder, if he was up to doing a little running. Sure, he responded, as soon as he finished his treatment. Almost an hour went by, and there was no Kobe sighting. Finally, with an ice pack on his shoulder, he took a seat on the sideline. It began to dawn on me that contrary to what he had told me, Kobe had no intention of running. After practice I followed Kobe to the training room, asking him why he lied to me. He was being sarcastic, he said. Wrong answer. I wasn't in the mood. Believe me, I can't begin to imagine how difficult this whole ordeal has been for Kobe, but that doesn't mean I will allow myself to be the recipient of his displaced anger, especially when I've been firmly on his side since the Colorado story broke.

Now I was the one who was angry. I went upstairs to see Mitch in his office. Wasting no time, I went off on a tirade about the need to deal Kobe before the trading deadline in mid-February. "I won't coach this team next year if he is still here," I said emphatically. "He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."

FEBRUARY 10

Miami

This afternoon I did something I almost never do. When Shaquille and Rick [Fox] stepped off the bus at our hotel in Coconut Grove, an upscale Miami suburb, I asked them to enter my suite for a brief chat. From the puzzled expressions on their faces, I could tell they were extremely curious, perhaps alarmed. I believe the time on the road between practice and the tip-off is almost sacred; the players should be allowed to prepare in their own ways for the challenge awaiting them. But this time I was facing my own challenge, and it had nothing to do with the Miami Heat. Recognizing that my relationship with Kobe was becoming more acrimonious by the day, I decided that a conversation with Shaq and Fox could not wait any longer. At practice the day before Kobe, who told [trainer Gary] Vitti that his finger hadn't healed sufficiently for him to play in the Miami game, was taking a few shots left-handed when I asked him not to be a distraction. I needed to work with the players who would be suiting up. "Distraction," he said, mockingly, unable to resist taking one more shot. A few hours later, during dinner in Key Biscayne with the staff, Vitti told us that Kobe has been threatening again to opt out of his contract, vowing "to take Slava [Medvedenko] with me." Slava? Was this an indication of Kobe's being totally out of touch with reality? If Kobe was interested in taking along a player who would defer to him, Slava Medvedenko was the worst choice imaginable. He hasn't passed up a shot since November.

Shaq and Rick took a seat in my room. Inviting Rick, I felt, would keep the discussion at a high level. I got right to the point. "What would you guys think if I were to offer Kobe a leave of absence?" They wasted no time, either. Kobe, they promised, would contribute to the team in a positive manner once he recovered from his finger injury. I was gratified to note the genuine sense of compassion, especially coming from Kobe's supposed enemy, Shaquille. The press, I have long believed, with its sensationalistic, insult-to-insult coverage, has captured only one component in a rather complicated relationship between two proud, if emotionally fragile, superstars. Shaq and Kobe will never be buddies, but they remain linked together by a common goal, perhaps destiny, each aware that they can't win championships here without the other. With Rick and Shaquille opposed, along with Mitch, I filed the leave of absence idea away for good. "What happens if he won't accept it?" Mitch asked. In that case, I replied, I would tell Kobe that we would suspend him with pay regardless, but for PR purposes call it a "leave of absence." The choice would belong to him. I knew precisely what I would say: "Kobe, you're not a positive element with the team anymore. You can't have these kind of anger situations in front of your teammates because it's destructive to the balance that has to be maintained."

FEBRUARY 16

A conversation with Kobe often reveals one of his many narcissistic tendencies. After I told him I believed he and Shaquille have proven they can play effectively together, he brought up Sunday's All-Star game, captured by the Western Conference squad 136--132. Shaq led the way with twenty-four points and eleven rebounds. "I got Shaq the most valuable player award last night," Kobe said. "I know how to make Shaq the best player on the floor." No doubt he was right. Nobody, when he is committed, can deliver the ball to Shaq more consistently, in a better spot, than Kobe. Yet if I were to acknowledge this point, I would betray Shaquille and arm Kobe with ammunition he might later exploit for their one-on-one battle that although camouflaged, always simmers under the surface. Kobe then expressed his disapproval of Shaquille's failure to show up for practice today. "That just shows you what kind of a leader he is," he said. "The conversation is about you and me, not Shaq," I said. He was angry about the allowances the Lakers afford Shaq, failing to note the hypocrisy in his accusation. Nobody this year, or in any year I've coached, has received more "allowances" than Kobe Bryant. At times the pettiness between the two of them can be unbelievably juvenile. Shaquille won't allow himself to be taped before a game by Gary Vitti because he's too aligned with Kobe. Kobe won't let Chip Schaefer, Shaq's guy, tape him. Reporters aren't immune from these territorial disputes. If a writer lingers too often around one superstar's locker, he is likely to be shut out by the other.

APRIL 13

Los Angeles

With the playoffs less than a week away, we need to be coming together. Instead, we're coming apart. At the center of the latest turmoil is -- who else? --Kobe. This time, in a strange twist, he's being crucified for taking too few shots: only one, unbelievably enough, in the first half of Sunday's game in Sacramento, which we lost by seventeen points, ruining, in all likelihood, any chance to win our division. He finished with eight points, his lowest total ever in a game in which he played at least forty minutes. The theory being tossed around is that Kobe, stung by criticism for his shot selection in recent games, decided to show the Lakers how stagnant the offense can become when he doesn't assert himself. "I don't know how we can forgive him," one anonymous teammate was quoted as saying in today's Times.

Today at practice, Kobe went from player to player, shoving the article with the anonymous quote in their faces. I have rarely seen him that incensed. "Did you say this?" he demanded of each player. Later, during a team gathering, he pursued the interrogation. "Right here and right now," he said, raising his voice, "I want to know who said this shit."

Nobody said a word, until Karl finally broke the silence. "Obviously, Kobe, no one said it or no one wants to admit they said it," Karl said. "You've just got to let it go now." Karl and Kobe, who have become buddies, launched into a shouting match that I had to stop.

"We have to get over these types of things," I told the guys. "You can't be playing as a team if you're going to be harboring sentiments that aren't good toward each other." Desperate measures, I'm beginning to think, might be in order. Maybe we'll return to meditation, something, anything, to improve our karma.

"Are you feeling like you're going to come back next year?" Jeanie [Buss] asked me.

"Well, not if Kobe Bryant is on this team next year," I told her. "He's too complex a person. I don't need this."

JUNE 18

Los Angeles


By the time he walked off the court after Game 5 of the Finals, Phil Jackson had already decided he would leave the Lakers if Kobe Bryant remained with the team.
Jed Jacobsohn/Getty Images)
This was one day I will certainly never forget. In the morning I met with Kobe. In the afternoon I saw [Lakers owner] Dr. [Jerry] Buss. By the evening I no longer had a job. I was not surprised in the least, yet the end of any journey is always jarring. Once again I will need time to reflect. Kobe arrived in El Segundo with his agent, Rob Pelinka. Before the formal exit interview with Mitch, who was still meeting with [Derek Fish[er], I invited them into my office. I couldn't help but think of my meeting with Kobe back in February on the day after the All-Star game, when I was trying to salvage a relationship and a season. There was great tension, yet in a sense Jeanie right. Kobe and I did work well together -- for four months, that is. This time the same tension between us wasn't there. We both knew I would never coach him again.

While waiting for Mitch, we discussed Kobe's upcoming court appearance in Eagle County.

"Is the trial going to interfere with your free agency?" I asked.

"I don't know," he said. "The date hasn't been set yet."

"If it's set in July, will you be able to work around this?"

"Yeah, I'd have meetings on the weekends."

"How long will the trial last?"

"Anywhere from one to three weeks."

"Is there still a chance that there won't be a trial?"

"Yeah, there's a chance but either way, it doesn't matter. The outcome will be the same."

Just then Mitch came in. The chat was over. It was time for the official meeting. Mitch, Kobe, and I moved to the conference room.

I started by casually asking Kobe who called him on his cell moments before we left the locker room for Game 5. It was Brian Shaw, he said, a former teammate and part of our organization. "He told me to get after Gary [Payton], to make sure he was fired up." The advice, it turned out, was sound, but answering the call wasn't appropriate.

I then told Kobe how pleased I was with his ability to put aside our conflicts after the meeting in February, and make a strong commitment to the rest of the season. Mitch didn't waste the opportunity to praise Kobe's remarkable performances. The next subject was his decision to become a free agent, which killed a minute or two. I then got down to the questions I really wanted to ask.

"Will my presence or absence have anything to do with your desire to play for the Lakers?" I asked.

He looked puzzled. I rephrased the question. "Would my being with the Lakers or retiring have any influence on your desire to remain with the Lakers?"

He said I should make up my mind about my future independently of his decision.

"I'm going to retire," I said.

He raised his eyebrows. For the first time in the entire conversation, I thought I detected a little emotion.

"Really?" he asked.

I nodded. The next subject was Shaquille. "Will Shaq's presence on this team color your decision to come back or not?" I asked him.

"Yes, it does," he said.

"There's no doubt about that," he said. "I've done that for eight years with him, but I'm tired of being a sidekick." His sentiment came as no surprise, obviously. In the last few years the entire city of Los Angeles has heard many times from many "sources" that Kobe was no longer willing to play a subservient role to Shaquille. But to hear it in the words of the only source that matters, to hear Kobe say "sidekick," really struck me. I told Kobe I hoped he would find happiness in basketball and in his life, and that his family would remain intact after everything that had transpired in the last year. The meeting was over.

I understand why the Lakers treat Kobe as their most valuable asset. The kid will be twenty-six in August. His ability to take over a game, to make an impossible play, is unmatched. Yet it needs to be remembered that Kobe is still an employee, and that he needs direction and guidance in a way that helps him mature into the kind of adult we hope he can be. Kobe is missing out by not finding a way to become part of a system that involves giving to something larger than himself. He could have been the heir apparent to [Michael Jordan] and maybe won as many championships. He may still win a championship or two, but the boyish hero image has been replaced by that of a callous gun for hire.

|Zach|
10-12-2004, 04:17 PM
Thats very interesting....I may pick that book up.

Phobia
10-12-2004, 04:30 PM
This is precisely why I'm fully against the outrageous salaries players make. They put themselves above their teammates, coach, and the organization.

BIG_DADDY
10-12-2004, 04:32 PM
I think I will pick that up.

KC Jones
10-12-2004, 04:35 PM
This is precisely why I'm fully against the outrageous salaries players make. They put themselves above their teammates, coach, and the organization.

Hell, there are people in many walks of life with shitty attitudes that make too much money. Musicians, Actors, business executives, trust fund kids, and on and on...

Logical
10-12-2004, 04:38 PM
That is indeed very interesting and proves Kobe cost the Lakers both Jackson and Shaq and likely their future as a contender.

dirk digler
10-12-2004, 04:38 PM
I have a new image of Kobe after reading this. Kobe is a sniveling little whiny bitch and we will see how well he does without Shaq.
Phil did the right thing in walking away from the Lakers. There is no way I would put up with that bs.

ROYC75
10-12-2004, 04:38 PM
We all kinda knew Kobe was a spoiled brat.

ROYC75
10-12-2004, 04:39 PM
If I was the coach, I would have benched him until his attitude changed !

Piss on his superstar ability....

Phobia
10-12-2004, 04:40 PM
Phil gets the last laugh. What do you want to bet Kobe has a microphone in his grill at this moment launching counterattacks about how Shaq was Phil's Uncle Tom?

dirk digler
10-12-2004, 04:41 PM
We all kinda knew Kobe was a spoiled brat.

Yep. But Phil really exposed Kobe in this piece which I think is funny as hell. Everybody knows now that Shaq wasn't the problem, the problem was Kobe.

|Zach|
10-12-2004, 04:44 PM
I selected a therapist who has dealt with narcissistic behavior in the Los Angeles public school system. He'll be right at home here.

This line stood out... ROFL

dirk digler
10-12-2004, 04:50 PM
Kobe has moved up to #2 most hated athlete right behind horse face.

tk13
10-12-2004, 05:13 PM
I don't know, just the way Kobe has always carried himself, he's always seemed egotistical, so I guess this doesn't surprise me too much. I'd have to say that you've got quite an ego when Phil Jackson can't do anything with you. He can manage egos as well as any coach in any sport... heck he got Dennis Rodman to be relatively "calm" for three years on 3 championship teams. From reading those excerpts, I'm amazed Phil was able to keep it together and even get those guys in the Finals.

I can also see why Coach K turned down that massive contract that the Lakers offered him. Him and Kobe probably couldn't have co-existed for more than 5 seconds....

KingPriest2
10-12-2004, 05:19 PM
I don't know, just the way Kobe has always carried himself, he's always seemed egotistical, so I guess this doesn't surprise me too much. I'd have to say that you've got quite an ego when Phil Jackson can't do anything with you. He can manage egos as well as any coach in any sport... heck he got Dennis Rodman to be relatively "calm" for three years on 3 championship teams. From reading those excerpts, I'm amazed Phil was able to keep it together and even get those guys in the Finals.

I can also see why Coach K turned down that massive contract that the Lakers offered him. Him and Kobe probably couldn't have co-existed for more than 5 seconds....


Good Point

|Zach|
10-12-2004, 05:23 PM
Sometimes I wonder if I had been good at basketball and drafted out of highschool and been raised that Kobe has if I could avoid some of the pitfalls that he has fallen through. This isn't an excuse for him to act the way he does. But I wonder if I had a bunch of people around me in my life agreeing with everything I say and basically having anything I want if I could avoid being a spoiled brat. Hell, I am a spoiled brat as it is but I am far from being a star of any kind.

I think stars have problems like this because there is nobody within the span of their lives that tells them "no" I almost believe it is that simple...

Nobody says "no"

Crush
10-12-2004, 05:29 PM
Sometimes I wonder if I had been good at basketball and drafted out of highschool and been raised that Kobe has if I could avoid some of the pitfalls that he has fallen through. This isn't an excuse for him to act the way he does. But I wonder if I had a bunch of people around me in my life agreeing with everything I say and basically having anything I want if I could avoid being a spoiled brat. Hell, I am a spoiled brat as it is but I am far from being a star of any kind.

I think stars have problems like this because there is nobody within the span of their lives that tells them "no" I almost believe it is that simple...

Nobody says "no"



Good point. I think every incredibly rich person should have a "no" man.

Phobia
10-12-2004, 05:30 PM
Good point. I think every incredibly rich person should have a "no" man.

I'm well qualified.

|Zach|
10-12-2004, 05:32 PM
Good point. I think every incredibly rich person should have a "no" man.
ROFL

You wanna Keno? In the Casi - NO.

|Zach|
10-12-2004, 05:32 PM
I'm well qualified.
So you have experience in the field?

Phobia
10-12-2004, 05:35 PM
So you have experience in the field?

Yes. I've had a crazed stalker offer me $1000+ for email addresses and last names of people at ChiefsPlanet.

No.

tk13
10-12-2004, 05:35 PM
Sometimes I wonder if I had been good at basketball and drafted out of highschool and been raised that Kobe has if I could avoid some of the pitfalls that he has fallen through. This isn't an excuse for him to act the way he does. But I wonder if I had a bunch of people around me in my life agreeing with everything I say and basically having anything I want if I could avoid being a spoiled brat. Hell, I am a spoiled brat as it is but I am far from being a star of any kind.

I think stars have problems like this because there is nobody within the span of their lives that tells them "no" I almost believe it is that simple...

Nobody says "no"
Kobe's dad played in the NBA too though. That might be a factor, but I don't know for sure. Personally speaking, my parents were stubborn and were never afraid to tell me "no" to anything, I doubt having more money or fame would've made a lick of difference. I think that can keep you more grounded.

Crush
10-12-2004, 05:35 PM
FOR THE LAST TIME YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT 7 MILLION DOLLAR HOUSE!!!

YOU JUST GOT ONE LAST WEEK!!

|Zach|
10-12-2004, 05:36 PM
Yes. I've had a crazed stalker offer me $1000+ for email addresses and last names of people at ChiefsPlanet.

No.
I wish you were joking. But I don't think you are.

Having said that we are looking for a person with a good 5 years in the "no" business.

|Zach|
10-12-2004, 05:38 PM
Kobe's dad played in the NBA too though. That might be a factor, but I don't know for sure. Personally speaking, my parents were stubborn and were never afraid to tell me "no" to anything, I doubt having more money or fame would've made a lick of difference. I think that can keep you more grounded.
Thats true. I love my parents and think they have done a great job forming the set of values I have today. I wonder if from high shcool going on if I lived the life Kobe has how different those values would be.

I have no real answer for this I am more so thinking out loud.

The Bad Guy
10-12-2004, 05:48 PM
That is indeed very interesting and proves Kobe cost the Lakers both Jackson and Shaq and likely their future as a contender.

How do you know that Kobe cost the Lakers anything? It's not like Shaq would of shown up in shape this season anyway.

The season hasn't been played yet and the players that they got back for Shaq aren't exactly chopped liver. Odom and Butler are great in the open floor, and Odom is one of the 15 best players in the league.

tk13
10-12-2004, 06:04 PM
How do you know that Kobe cost the Lakers anything? It's not like Shaq would of shown up in shape this season anyway.

The season hasn't been played yet and the players that they got back for Shaq aren't exactly chopped liver. Odom and Butler are great in the open floor, and Odom is one of the 15 best players in the league.
Yeah, but in the NBA usually the championship teams have one of the best centers in the game. The Bulls dynasty teams are really the only exception to that rule, but they had maybe the two best players in the league (including maybe the best single player in NBA history), and maybe the best pound-for-pound rebounder to ever play the game during the last 3 titles.

ARROW2
10-12-2004, 07:34 PM
I guess Ben Wallace is one of the best centers in the game..........Get a clue. The Lakes will be fine.

ARROW2
10-12-2004, 07:35 PM
Shaq couldn't carry Kareem's jock. The sky hook was unstoppable, rebounded better and blocked more shots.

tk13
10-12-2004, 07:50 PM
I guess Ben Wallace is one of the best centers in the game..........Get a clue. The Lakes will be fine.
And I suppose you're going to tell me Vlade Divac is better Laker fan? Offensively Wallace is not, but defensively he is... although I'd agree he's probably the worst non-Chicago Bull championship center in about 30 years maybe? You go look it up, Shaq, Duncan, Olajuwon, Laimbeer/Pistons frontcourt, Parish/McHale, Jabbar, Moses Malone, Jack Sikma, Wes Unseld, Bill Walton, Dave Cowens. One of the above was on every single non-Bulls championship team since 1975. That's 30 years, and there are only 6 championship teams in that span who did not have one of these guys playing center, and all 6 of those teams had "Bulls" written across the front of the jersey. Now you tell me who needs to get a clue. :)

TEX
10-12-2004, 07:52 PM
I'm soooooo sick of Kobe, Phil Jackson, Shaq, and the Lakers.

KcMizzou
10-12-2004, 07:53 PM
I'm soooooo sick of Kobe, Phil Jackson, Shaq, and the Lakers. I would have said so too, but I found that pretty interesting. I wouldn't mind reading the book.

ARROW2
10-12-2004, 10:18 PM
And I suppose you're going to tell me Vlade Divac is better Laker fan? Offensively Wallace is not, but defensively he is... although I'd agree he's probably the worst non-Chicago Bull championship center in about 30 years maybe? You go look it up, Shaq, Duncan, Olajuwon, Laimbeer/Pistons frontcourt, Parish/McHale, Jabbar, Moses Malone, Jack Sikma, Wes Unseld, Bill Walton, Dave Cowens. One of the above was on every single non-Bulls championship team since 1975. That's 30 years, and there are only 6 championship teams in that span who did not have one of these guys playing center, and all 6 of those teams had "Bulls" written across the front of the jersey. Now you tell me who needs to get a clue. :)




Things are changing. How many dominant centers are in today's game right now? Get back at me with a list. I proved my point. It can be done, 6 is not 0. Don't F with me.

KingPriest2
10-12-2004, 10:20 PM
Things are changing. How many dominant centers are in today's game right now? Get back at me with a list. I proved my point. It can be done, 6 is not 0. Don't F with me.


WTF?

ARROW2
10-12-2004, 10:21 PM
I don't have to look ish up either, I witnessed all of those championships.

ARROW2
10-12-2004, 10:22 PM
WTF?


List the dominant centers in today's game. I'll wait. Titles can be won without Shaq. That would be the last two.

KingPriest2
10-12-2004, 10:30 PM
List the dominant centers in today's game. I'll wait. Titles can be won without Shaq. That would be the last two.


No I was just wondering why you are so defensive. TK is a good guy so you don't have to say "don't F with me"

SoCalRaider
10-12-2004, 11:05 PM
That is indeed very interesting and proves Kobe cost the Lakers both Jackson and Shaq and likely their future as a contender.
This doesn't prove jack... Until we see this from the eyes of an objective viewer who didn't have anything at stake in this mess (i.e. Karl Malone for example), nothing has been proven. I'm not doubting the validity of some of the things Jackson has said, but that excerpt is blatantly one - sided.

tk13
10-12-2004, 11:09 PM
Things are changing. How many dominant centers are in today's game right now? Get back at me with a list. I proved my point. It can be done, 6 is not 0. Don't F with me.
How many dominant frontcourts have there ever really been? How many are out there now? Not very many.... which is all the more reason to have one. Maybe things are changing, we'll see, I don't know, but I really don't think it's any different than looking at the NFL and saying "Hey! The teams with good defenses win championships." Likewise, history says the teams with great frontcourt play win championships....

ARROW2
10-12-2004, 11:09 PM
No I was just wondering why you are so defensive. TK is a good guy so you don't have to say "don't F with me"





Because I bleed purple and gold and am tired of the Kobe bashing and the BS drama. If you don't know how good he is, you will find out. Vlade, even if by default, is one of the top centers in TODAY's game. Wasn't Sacramento considered formidable with Vlade? I know a lot of people on this board don't follow the NBA. I get tired of reading misinformed comments about the NBA on here. I don't normally post about it. I am also a die hard Chief fan. You will see me defend them with the same ferocity. I am originally from K.C. so K.C. is in my heart. I have loved the Lakes since the early 70's.

SoCalRaider
10-12-2004, 11:10 PM
How do you know that Kobe cost the Lakers anything? It's not like Shaq would of shown up in shape this season anyway.
Agreed... $30 million for a guy who spends half the regular season in street clothes, and then gets worked in the finals by somebody half his size. :rolleyes:

SoCalRaider
10-12-2004, 11:13 PM
I'm soooooo sick of Kobe, Phil Jackson, Shaq, and the Lakers.
Then what are you doing on this thread?

%(/

KingPriest2
10-12-2004, 11:19 PM
Because I bleed purple and gold and am tired of the Kobe bashing and the BS drama. If you don't know how good he is, you will find out. Vlade, even if by default, is one of the top centers in TODAY's game. Wasn't Sacramento considered formidable with Vlade? I know a lot of people on this board don't follow the NBA. I get tired of reading misinformed comments about the NBA on here. I don't normally post about it. I am also a die hard Chief fan. You will see me defend them with the same ferocity. I am originally from K.C. so K.C. is in my heart. I have loved the Lakes since the early 70's.


But TK was not bashing Kobe he was just stating another point.

Crush
10-12-2004, 11:22 PM
Because I bleed purple and gold


You should have that checked out.

ARROW2
10-12-2004, 11:53 PM
But TK was not bashing Kobe he was just stating another point.



Stand by your man. Are you his gay lover or something?

ARROW2
10-12-2004, 11:54 PM
You should have that checked out.




14 titles. 3 in a row recently. A great organization. I bleed Chief Red as I am sure you do. How many rings do we have? STFU!!!!!

KingPriest2
10-12-2004, 11:56 PM
Stand by your man. Are you his gay lover or something?
WTF?

KcMizzou
10-12-2004, 11:57 PM
Stand by your man. Are you his gay lover or something? Don't be a dick... the guy was right.

ARROW2
10-12-2004, 11:59 PM
WTF?




I am sure he can fight his own battles. He was quoting conventional wisdom but the league has changed. I pointed out how a team JUST won a title without a dominant center and that it is increasingly likely that teams will win more given the lack of dominant big men today. Comprende?

ARROW2
10-12-2004, 11:59 PM
Don't be a dick... the guy was right.



so was I. Why don't you eat a dick?

KcMizzou
10-13-2004, 12:03 AM
so was I. Why don't you eat a dick? ROFL

Thanks. I was a little short on my fourth grade insults for the day. You filled the quota. Can't you have a discussion without this nonsense?

KingPriest2
10-13-2004, 12:04 AM
Don't be a dick... the guy was right.

He'll come around

ARROW2
10-13-2004, 12:06 AM
He'll come around




See post #49.

ARROW2
10-13-2004, 12:06 AM
ROFL

Thanks. I was a little short on my fourth grade insults for the day. You filled the quota. Can't you have a discussion without this nonsense?



Are you the pot or the kettle? "Don't be a dick...."

KcMizzou
10-13-2004, 12:08 AM
Are you the pot or the kettle? "Don't be a dick...." Exactly... "Don't be a dick" = "Don't resort to that nonsense"

If you have a strong arguement, it's not needed. Kill them with facts.

Assuming you have them...

KingPriest2
10-13-2004, 12:11 AM
Exactly... "Don't be a dick" = "Don't resort to that nonsense"

If you have a strong arguement, it's not needed. Kill them with facts.

Assuming you have them...


Don't insult us but make your case. Don't piss people off.

ARROW2
10-13-2004, 12:17 AM
Exactly... "Don't be a dick" = "Don't resort to that nonsense"

If you have a strong arguement, it's not needed. Kill them with facts.

Assuming you have them...



Again, see post # 49.

ARROW2
10-13-2004, 12:18 AM
Don't insult us but make your case. Don't piss people off.





See post #49 and follow your own advice.

ARROW2
10-13-2004, 12:19 AM
What part of that post don't you understand?

The Bad Guy
10-13-2004, 12:53 AM
I am sure he can fight his own battles. He was quoting conventional wisdom but the league has changed. I pointed out how a team JUST won a title without a dominant center and that it is increasingly likely that teams will win more given the lack of dominant big men today. Comprende?
The Lakers have a small chance to make noise this year. Unless Mihm can guard Duncan and Webber in the post effectively then they can't win the West.

They really need Malone to come back mid year to solidfy the front court. The Lakers could most definitely get away with a Malone, Vlade, Mihm, Grant front court without a problem. But Grant and Vlade playing a lot of minutes equals big trouble.

I'm a diehard Lakers fan, and I'm excited to see Kobe and Odom together, but the team is really weak at PF and PG right now.

Damn Kupchak getting rid of Banks in that GP to Boston deal. Banks would of been perfect for this team. Brings a lot of speed and tough defense.

But I agree with the others, there's no need to fly off the handle because of a differing opinion.

tk13
10-13-2004, 01:02 AM
Wow, this thread got ugly... I still don't see what all the fuss is about. Kobe's a great player, he's the best guard in the league in my book. It's not like the Lakers are going to drop into the cellar or anything. Kobe does have an ego though, but then again so did Jordan... as did Bird and Magic (although those two guys would've never tried to run a HOF center out of town). I don't think any less of Kobe's abilities as a player, but it's hard to like the guy when he wanted to run the most quite possibly the most dominant coach and center in recent history out of town... the name of the game is winning championships. I don't think very highly of Jerry Krause of the Bulls for the same reason... you have the elements put together to be remembered as one of the greatest teams/dynasties of all time, and you don't want to be in that situation. Could you imagine if a Chiefs player did that?

Earthling
10-13-2004, 01:04 AM
Hell, there are people in many walks of life with shitty attitudes that make too much money. Musicians, Actors, business executives, trust fund kids, and on and on...
Ahem...Most musicians are poor ass-holes that have terrible marraiges and barely get by...Been there. :p

ARROW2
10-13-2004, 01:27 AM
The Lakers have a small chance to make noise this year. Unless Mihm can guard Duncan and Webber in the post effectively then they can't win the West.

They really need Malone to come back mid year to solidfy the front court. The Lakers could most definitely get away with a Malone, Vlade, Mihm, Grant front court without a problem. But Grant and Vlade playing a lot of minutes equals big trouble.

I'm a diehard Lakers fan, and I'm excited to see Kobe and Odom together, but the team is really weak at PF and PG right now.

Damn Kupchak getting rid of Banks in that GP to Boston deal. Banks would of been perfect for this team. Brings a lot of speed and tough defense.

But I agree with the others, there's no need to fly off the handle because of a differing opinion.




Initially saying "get a clue" doesn't exactly qualify as "flying off the handle" I'm done with it. Agreed that the PG situation is shaky. B. Grant, Slava, Cook will have to do. I don't expect Malone back.

Ari Chi3fs
10-13-2004, 02:26 AM
Hey ARROW2, why dont you go sit on an Arrow or 2? your attitude is shit. I think the Chiefs can do without you, go root for the Raiders, shitbag.

ARROW2
10-13-2004, 10:48 AM
Hey ARROW2, why dont you go sit on an Arrow or 2? your attitude is shit. I think the Chiefs can do without you, go root for the Raiders, shitbag.


Why don't you go suck a dick faggot.

KingPriest2
10-13-2004, 11:20 AM
Why don't you go suck a dick pillowbiter.


Dude calm down. Why are you so defensive? It is the freaking internet.

David.
10-13-2004, 11:23 AM
Why don't you go suck a dick pillowbiter.

:spock: is this guy for real?

KingPriest2
10-13-2004, 11:25 AM
:spock: is this guy for real?


I have no idea