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View Full Version : My take after three debates


Logical
10-13-2004, 09:30 PM
Domestic economy - 1st on the domestic economy issue other than National Healthcare and Social Security I find I could vote Kerry. Unfortunately because of National Healthcare there is no way.

Social policy - Kerry supporter all the way (not enough)

Foreign policy - Massively behind Bush over Kerry

Military policy - Massively behind Bush over Kerry

Social Welfare - Not really happy with either candidate


So how about you how do you fit in these areas.

InChiefsHell
10-13-2004, 09:39 PM
Unhappy with Bush on the border issue, but at the same time, it is illegal to militarize the border. Posse commetatus (sp) I believe.

I believe in business, and I know that the reason for the big surplus in the 90's was over taxation and a booming (albeit a false) economy. Presidents don't give people jobs. Domestice economy to Bush.

Social Policy - pretty much Bush, though a constitutional amendment is not something I ever feel good about. Might be necessary here, but probably not.

Foreign policy, it's all about Bush.

Social welfare, both candidates pander, but I still think Bush presents a solution that makes people not the government accountable.

I can't help it. I support Bush because I'm a conservative. He's kinda conservative on most things, but he does spend like a drunken sailor. Not enough to make me want to vote for Kerry though.

Logical
10-13-2004, 09:52 PM
InChiefsHell

Thanks for your take, that is the kind of feedback I was hoping for from this thread.

Hoover
10-13-2004, 10:01 PM
Domestic economy - I don't really know what the Kerry "Plan" is.

I think the wrong move would be to raise taxes on anyone. Like them or not the Bush Tax cuts have created 1.9 million jobs in the last 13 months, to change that policy now would be stupid. I have to say I'm with Bush, but he needs to cut his spending.

Social policy - I'm a social and fiscal conservative, so I'm with Bush on this. To me the question on abortion comes down to personal responsibility. We live in a day and age that if you don't want to have a kid, there are things you can do, take a pill, wrap it up. Using abortion as a means of birth control is lazy.

Foreign policy - I'm a hawk. The terrorists what Bush out in a bad way, that should tell you something. John Kerry, might not have a global test, but you know damn well if the world isn't 100% behind military action, he will sit on his hands. Everyone talks about WWII being a just war, but ya know what, it wasn't that cut and dry when the President had to make the decision to get into that war, shit we waited until we were attacked to join that war. Hindsight is always 20/20 or better. And a final note, as President of the United States, you have to lead if people are with us, or if we are alone in a cause we think is just.

Military policy - I'd rather take it to terrorist who are in the Middle east, than in a major street in the US. Freedom is under attack from terrorist. the best way to win that war, is to change the Middle East, if we stay the course in Iraq and creat a democracy in for other people to see, we will have a better shot true peace.

Social Welfare - I lean Bush, because Kerry scares the crap out of me.

Health Care - What we should do is reward individuals who make health care a priority for there family. Under the Hoover Plan :D, a family or individual would recieve a tax credit to off set the cost of health care. The last thing I want to see is a government program that gives health coverage to people who don't make it a priority now.

Social Security - We have to change the system. Most my employees pay more in Social Security with the employer match than they do in Federal Income Taxes, yet there is no gaurentee they will ever see a dime of it. Let them put a small %, in a private account controlled by the government that has their name on it, in the hopes of some day, the money you and your employer pay into SS, is actually your money.

Logical
10-13-2004, 10:05 PM
....

Health Care - What we should do is reward individuals who make health care a priority for there family. Under the Hoover Plan :D, a family or individual would recieve a tax credit to off set the cost of health care. The last thing I want to see is a government program that gives health coverage to people who don't make it a priority now.

...

I definitely like your health care plan idea.

Hoover
10-13-2004, 10:11 PM
I definitely like your health care plan idea.
Thanks, I'm shocked its never been floated.

So My wife and I pay $500 a month for health insurance that we pay out of pocket. That $6000 a year. So you need to come up with a ratio that looks at net income, and health care cost to get to a tax credit number. Lets say its a credit of $3000, cutting half the costs.

Is that an incentive for people who don't have health coverage to make it a priority and get it? I sure think so.

The result is more people having health Insurance, that will cut the cost of it, because Hospitals and docotrs will not be treating as many people who don't have insurance. Its also keps us away from national government ran health care.

WoodDraw
10-13-2004, 10:13 PM
Economic policy - Bush by default. I wish he'd be more fiscaly conservative and I'm not sure the tax cuts are such a great idea durring the current time but it's better than the government funding for everything that Kerry wants.

Social policy - Kerry, especially on gay marriage and stem cell research.

Foreign policy - Bush, but barely. I don't like Bush's decision to go into Iraq but that's over. I like his plan to modernize the military structure and finally declare the end of the cold war. Plus, I think he'll do a decent job of handling the Iran and North Korea issues after the Iraq fiasco.

Social welfare - Uh, whatever. Neither of them really gave a plan that was even close to interesting.

Health Care - I'm a little more liberal on this as I think something has to be done. I don't have all the answers but I know Bush doesn't have them either.

Hoover
10-13-2004, 10:14 PM
Jim,

If you have any more thoughts about the Hoover Health Care plan please send me a PM. this really pisses me off, and I want to take action. Next Tuesday, I'm meeting with a congressman friend of mine and going to bring this up. For the past 7 months, I've only chated about this with my political friends, so an outside thought would be helpful.

Logical
10-14-2004, 10:16 AM
Day crew opinions?

RINGLEADER
10-14-2004, 10:40 AM
I could really look beyond Kerry's tax increase plan (despite the evidence that every tax cut ever passed actually led to increased tax revenues) if I knew the funds raised from the tax hike would go exclusively to the deficit. Unfortunately, Kerry tells us that he's going to use the money to pay for big government health care or to sustain the broken social security system.

For those who don't think Kerry's health care program would be a government health care program all you have to do is point me to one program that the government spends a trillion dollars on and doesn't have strict mandates on how the money is spent and I'll believe what Kerry was trying to sell last night.

Kerry has said many times that he thinks the war on terror is primarily a law enforcement issue and that the threat is exaggerated. His call for a "global test" before acting pre-emptively just further reveals that the guy who couldn't support war with Saddam after the guy was moving on the world's oil supply - despite UN backing and a coalition that included the French and Germans - wouldn't be prosecuting the war on terror with the same commitment to military intervention that Bush has. To me that's a deal-breaker. If the Dems had rolled out Joe Biden or Sam Nunn I could look past a lot of the social programs that Dems favor because I would know where the president stood on the war. Kerry doesn't exactly instill confidence that he'd be this laser on the terrorists. Even though he tries real hard to sound the part, he always has a "but" that waters down his commitment to fight these guys. His history tells us that he didn't think terrorism could be defeated and I think he favors containing terrorism over defeating it if the price involves deploying troops. He's just way too cautious for his own good and the people he's surrounding himself with think the Clinton approach to terror actually worked if you can believe that.

Kerry's approach to social security is politically safe, but ruinous for the program.

That's all I'm coming away with right now...I've got to go answer the front door...

Raiderhader
10-14-2004, 10:58 AM
I didn't need the debates for this (just as most probably don't need me to post this), but here it goes -

Fiscal Policy - Tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts! Need I say more? I will anyway. Not only do I like the tax cuts, I am heartened by the rumors of some sort of serious reform. I'll take either a flat tax or a national sales tax. My preference is the latter for sure, however I would be more than content to see everyone treated as equals under the tax the code. Punishing the successful, just because they are successful, is as much a moral issue to me as anything else. Of course that is why I prefer the national sales tax, why punish people by taking their hard earned dollars from them before they have the option to put it to use the in the manner that best suits their and their famalies' needs. Alright, alright, I'll move on now. One other quick thing though about the fiscal policy, Bush's spending sucks. Granted, alot of it is due to the WOT, and that I have no problem with. However there is a lot of spending that has nothing to do with that which is about to be addressed in my next catagory. Still, Bush hands down here.

Social Welfare Policy - Well, do you want a lot of spending here? Or a lot more spending here? Yeah I know, not much of a choice. Bush, just because he spends less, albeit not much less.

Social Policy - There is one issue here where I feel forced to agree with Bush (Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage) due to what I forsee happening in the future. Otherwise, I am pretty much in line with him sans hesitation.

Military Policy - Heh, walk quickly and swing a big stick. :) My view changed dramatically after 9/11. I don't want to police the world, but if we don't no one will, and that becomes an issue when we come under attack from people who span the globe. Bush all the way.

Foriegn Policy - I think the previous catagory pretty much explains what I desire here. I want to be aggressive, and I do not want to worry about winning a popularity contest with the nations of the world when our security is at stake. With out a doubt, Bush here as well.

Raiderhader
10-14-2004, 11:00 AM
Thanks, I'm shocked its never been floated.

So My wife and I pay $500 a month for health insurance that we pay out of pocket. That $6000 a year. So you need to come up with a ratio that looks at net income, and health care cost to get to a tax credit number. Lets say its a credit of $3000, cutting half the costs.

Is that an incentive for people who don't have health coverage to make it a priority and get it? I sure think so.

The result is more people having health Insurance, that will cut the cost of it, because Hospitals and docotrs will not be treating as many people who don't have insurance. Its also keps us away from national government ran health care.


Certainly a step in the right direction. The plan is a good place to start from.

Cochise
10-14-2004, 11:03 AM
after these debates, and indeed after 4 years, i kind of feel like InChiefsHell.

I voted for Bush last time. I've gotten more or less what I expected.

Positives: taxes, defense & security
Negatives: spending, border security

For me the two things he has positive are my two biggest issues, and the negatives are more of the nice to have, but not dealbreakers variety.

Neutral: health care, education, social programs, etc.

These are things that I don't think are the government's business anyway, and you just have two politicians trying to outspend each other. Neither of them has the right idea, just passing out candy to voters.

Logical
10-14-2004, 08:08 PM
...

Kerry has said many times that he thinks the war on terror is primarily a law enforcement issue and that the threat is exaggerated. His call for a "global test" before acting pre-emptively just further reveals that the guy who couldn't support war with Saddam after the guy was moving on the world's oil supply - despite UN backing and a coalition that included the French and Germans - wouldn't be prosecuting the war on terror with the same commitment to military intervention that Bush has. To me that's a deal-breaker. If the Dems had rolled out Joe Biden or Sam Nunn I could look past a lot of the social programs that Dems favor because I would know where the president stood on the war. Kerry doesn't exactly instill confidence that he'd be this laser on the terrorists. Even though he tries real hard to sound the part, he always has a "but" that waters down his commitment to fight these guys. His history tells us that he didn't think terrorism could be defeated and I think he favors containing terrorism over defeating it if the price involves deploying troops. He's just way too cautious for his own good and the people he's surrounding himself with think the Clinton approach to terror actually worked if you can believe that.

...

I agree with you completely on this and think you did an excellent job of explaining your position on it without being inflammatory.

Respect.

Logical
10-14-2004, 08:13 PM
...
Fiscal Policy - Tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts! Need I say more? I will anyway. Not only do I like the tax cuts, I am heartened by the rumors of some sort of serious reform. I'll take either a flat tax or a national sales tax. My preference is the latter for sure, however I would be more than content to see everyone treated as equals under the tax the code. Punishing the successful, just because they are successful, is as much a moral issue to me as anything else. Of course that is why I prefer the national sales tax, why punish people by taking their hard earned dollars from them before they have the option to put it to use the in the manner that best suits their and their famalies' needs. Alright, alright, I'll move on now. One other quick thing though about the fiscal policy, Bush's spending sucks. Granted, alot of it is due to the WOT, and that I have no problem with. However there is a lot of spending that has nothing to do with that which is about to be addressed in my next catagory. Still, Bush hands down here.
.....

A thought out position, but I actually disagree that Bush would be any better or worse than Kerry accept on National Healthcare and SS.

wazu
10-14-2004, 08:22 PM
Domestic economy - They're both horrible, but at least Bush cuts taxes.

Social policy - Lean towards Bush in this category. The Pro-Life stance is key for me. I find the "anti-gay marriage" platform to be pretty repellent, though. We've got a lot bigger problems to tackle than trying to beat down people who love each other.

Foreign policy - Kerry wins here for me. I want Bin Laden caught. Democracy in Iraq is not in my list of Top 5 priorities in the war on terror. However, I do enjoy the fact that Bush has made the U.N. irrelevant.

Military policy - Bush probably wins here. That nuclear "bunker-buster" sounds really cool.

Social Welfare - Both candidates are bleeding heart spend-a-holics. I'll vote for Badnarik if he can just keep out of jail.

Inspector
10-14-2004, 09:02 PM
Kerry is taller than Bush.

Bush had a nicer looking tie on - each debate. He wins the tie issue.

IMO.

Raiderhader
10-14-2004, 09:26 PM
A thought out position, but I actually disagree that Bush would be any better or worse than Kerry accept on National Healthcare and SS.


I must admit to being surprised to hear that from you, Jim. Kerry has made it very well known that he is going to raise your taxes (I still say he is going to raise everyone's, but that is a wait and see argument).

And I can garruntee that Kerry is no more interested in real tax reform than Taco is about becoming a Chiefs' fan. I just do not see how Kerry cannot be worse than Bush in this area.

Taco John
10-14-2004, 10:27 PM
Tax cuts without spending cuts is futility. At the very least, Kerry talks about bringing back a "pay as you go" philosophy.

As far as youre guess that Kerry is going to raise everybody's taxes, I doubt strongly that he'd do that... At least not in his first term... I'll worry about that prospect after four years.