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listopencil
10-14-2004, 02:18 AM
MICHAEL BADNARIK ARRESTED
October 8http://badnarik.org/supporters/blog/images/badnarik_arrest_front.jpgRead the press release – “IT IS NOT TOO SOON FOR HONEST MEN TO REBEL …” (http://badnarik.org/press/release.php?p=1344) – explaining why Michael Badnarik (Libertarian Party) and David Cobb (Green Party) chose civil disobedience to make their point.
Photos of the event can be found here: BADNARIK/COBB PROTEST AND ARREST PICTURES (http://badnarik.org/press/release.php?p=1356)

8:38PM CT
The first report from St. Louis is in - and presidential candidates Michael Badnarik (Libertarian) and David Cobb (Green Party) were just arrested. Badnarik was carrying an Order to Show Cause (http://thelfactor.org/arizona_state_lawsuit.html), which he intended to serve the Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD). Earlier today, Libertarians attempted to serve these same papers at the Washington, D.C. headquarters of the CPD - but were stopped from approaching the CPD office by security guards.
Fred Collins reported to me from the ground that Badnarik and Cobb are in great physical condition and great spirit.
As soon as more details are available, they will be posted here immediately.
8:51PM CT
I just spoke with Jon Airheart on his cellular telephone. He reports that while he could see no handcuffs, both Badnarik and Cobb had their hands behind their backs, as if they were handcuffed. Airheart also confirms that Badnarik did have the papers to serve the CPD in his jacket pocket.
<A id=more-1346>9:09PM CT
The first AP report (http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/politics/9872659.htm) just hit Google News: Just as the debate began, two third-party presidential candidates purposely crossed a police barricade and were arrested. Green Party presidential candidate David Cobb and Libertarian Party candidate Michael Badnarik were protesting their exclusion from the debate
.
10:09PM CT
My cell phone is ringing off the hook. There is no way to catch up with all of the messages left - and I am sure the memory is full by now. Things are going too fast to keep up with them.
Jon Airheart just reported that he and Fred Collins are catching a taxi to the jail where Mike is currently located. The address is 200 South Tucker Street, St. Louis, MO. Jon stated that there were over one hundred police officers with helmets and shields in the particular line they crossed.
Thomas Knapp just reported that prior to their arrests, Badnarik and Cobb explained to the crowd why they chose civil disobedience to express their message. He stated that Badnarik had to “bodily” push his way through the police line. Once through, he peacefully surrendered, was handcuffed, and taken out of direct sight.
10:30 PM CT
We now have multiple audioblogs from Jon Airheart (in chronological order) at:
http://www.audioblogger.com/media/23496/102201.mp3
(http://www.audioblogger.com/media/23496/102201.mp3)
http://www.audioblogger.com/media/23496/102271.mp3 (http://www.audioblogger.com/media/23496/102271.mp3)
http://www.audioblogger.com/media/23496/102278.mp3 (http://www.audioblogger.com/media/23496/102278.mp3)
10:42PM CST
More news reports:
This quote comes from this St. Louis Post-Dispatch report (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/election2004/story/C5E191143DCACB1286256F2800113629?OpenDocument&Headline=Serious+meets+trivial+outside+debate):
“I have the freedom of speech and they have no authority to barricade that,” Badnarik said from outside the security line.
The Progress Report reports (http://www.progress.org/2004/debates08.htm):
“Libertarian presidential candidate Michael Badnarik pushed his way through the police line at the debate site about a minute after Cobb and was similarly arrested. Cobb and Badnarik have participated in genuine, non-scripted, nonpartisan debates four times in this campaign; a fifth debate is scheduled for October 15 at Eastern Tennessee State University with a number of other candidates.”
10:51PM CT
Apparently, we have overloaded the facilities at www.audioblogger.com (http://www.audioblogger.com). We will save and FTP the audioblog postings to our site as soon as we can retrieve them.
11:04PM CT
Jon Airheart and Fred Collins just called. They are at the city jail mentioned above. Jon stated, “What I will now tell you shows the absolute ineptitude of government. They don’t even know, and won’t know for three to four hours, whether he is in this particular jail.”
Fred Collins said, “He [Badnarik] should have picked a better city in which to be arrested.”
The question which remains is whether Mr. Badnarik is in the city or the county jail.
[b]11:12PM CT
It is a good thing we changed servers last night - as we have been seriously farked (http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1159548) tonight.
11:19PM CT
The following is reported via e-mail from George Getz, the Libertarian Party communications director about his attempt to serve the CPD in D.C. today: All:
At about 2pm ET, I hand-delivered the paper called “Arizona Case Order.” I talked to David [Euchner - the lead attorney in the Arizona case] immediately afterward and he said the other papers can be faxed later. I am now back at the office, and there’s no one here, so I’m unaware of any developments.
I will also fax the affidavit, as David and I discussed earlier.
GG
11:23PM CT
Former LNC Chair and Operations Manager for the Badnarik campaign Geoffrey Neale responded with: Do you have a signature from anyone at the CPD?
11:27PM CT
Here is Mr. Getz’s response to Mr. Neale: Unfortunately, no. But this guy was so hostile there was no way he would have signed it. He wouldn’t even take it in his hand, and made me just put it on the desk instead.
He wouldn’t even tell me his name!?! – he was just “Tom.”
I replied, “Tom, huh? Could you be more vague, Tom?”
However, David (our attorney) was on the phone with “Tom” at the time I came into the office, and overheard the whole conversation, so I don’t think he can deny it. The lawyer is an “officer of the court,” or whatever, and if he tells the judge that’s what happened, that better be what happened. Plus, in my affidavit I described the schmuck and his assistant schmuck pretty well, which would be very odd if I wasn’t there.
Let’s hope for the best.
George
11:50PM CT
Nancy Neale (Geoffrey Neale’s darling wife) just sent me the following interesting link while I was being interviewed by some reporter from Missouri:
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/thirdparties.html (http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/thirdparties.html)
12:04AM CT
Fred Collins just called on Jon Airheart’s cell phone, as Fred’s battery is ganz tot. He reports, “The county jail says they don’t have him and the city jail says they don’t have him.”
Where is Michael? Perhaps at Gitmo already?
12:33AM CT
Shortnews reports (http://shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=43554&rubrik1=Politics&rubrik2=US%20Politics&rubrik3=Election&sort=1&start=1): US Presidential candidates arrested entering CPD debate site US Presidential candidates Michael Badnarik (Libertarian) and David Cobb (Green) were arrested Friday in St. Louis after breaking through a police
line barricading the Commission on Presidential Debates event hosted at Washington University.
The candidates peacefully surrendered, protesting the exclusion of their opposing viewpoints and
questioning the legality of the bipartisan Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD).
Local police responded to the incidents by delivering two additional busloads of officers in riot
gear to the University’s event site.
12:43AM CT
Jon Airheart just called to tell me, “WE FOUND HIM!” He is reported to be at some medium-security lockup at 7600 North Hall Street. They are going to call Tamara Millay to see if she is closer than they are - but Fred and Jon are going to catch a cab nonetheless to pick up Mr. Badnarik.
An anonymous hotel employee told Jon, “We need to get him out of there - it is not a pleasant place to be - but if you wish to escape its not that hard.”
The facility is locally known as the “City Work House.”
Airheart reports that he called one number to find Mr. Badnarik, which led him to another number, which led him to another number…
Eventually, before Fred and Jon found Mr.Badnarik, Mr. Badnarik called Jon.
Jon reports that Mr. Badnarik said the whole process would have taken a lot less time but there was a lot of commotion on campus. They arrested five students who “literally just accidentally crossed over into the ‘no-longer-a-free-speech-zone’ and they nearly were nearly taken out by snipers. According to the report, it was just five kids trying to go back to their dorms. After expressing outrage over the way the students were treated, Badnarik stated that this slowed his processing dramatically.
As Airheart was reporting this to me, he suddenly said, “Cab is here - got to go! But tell people that this is just like a scene from the movie Brazil.”
12:57AM CT
A gentleman by the name of Nick Patton called me. He said he “lives in area.”
He stated that crossing the initial police line was not difficult. He had been in the tents near the debates for two hours and was leaving the premises to watch on it all video.
“I was leaving and they took me down,” Patton said.
There were four other youths who live off campus who were also accosted and detained for around four hours, Patton reported.
1:09AM CT
The story has been picked up here by WorldNetDaily (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40843).
01:22AM CT
A young man by the name of Abel Jones called me. He reported that he was walking back from the debate activities with one guy and two girls. They saw some guys who Jones said looked like Secret Service agents. They asked if they could cut across the lawn they were approaching, and the “Secret Service looking guys” said they didn’t care.
After walking 20 to 40 yards, they were taken down by two officers and told there were snipers trained on them.
They were told they were “lucky they were not hit by the snipers.”
Jones said that no rights were read to them. He stated that one girl was treated roughly. Her earrings and shoelaces were taken off. He stated that she was treated more roughly than everyone else.
01:26AM CT
The story has just been picked up by Rational Review here (http://www.rationalreview.com/announcements/10092004.html).
01:47PM CT
I just talked with Mr. Badnarik. He was in his hotel room and eating some dinner.
He said that after he and Mr. Cobb were arrested, they were placed in a police van - then there was some delay as they threw some students in the van with them. The stories from two of them are posted in the prior two entries of this posting.
Mr. Badnarik says that they sat in a cell for one to one and a half hours. He reported that the fingerprinting process was not as thorough as he had expected.
They did not have to post any bail - but were given tickets for “trespass” and “refusing a reasonable order from a policeman".
Badnarik said that he had the papers to be served to the CPD in his pocket, but was never given opportunity to serve them.
01:52AM CT
The Cobb campaign has issued this press release (http://www.votecobb.net/news/arrested).
02:02AM CT
Here is a screen shot of a Badnarik sign on MS-NBC.
http://badnarik.org/supporters/blog/images/MVC-016S.jpg
02:09AM CT
Another MS-NBC screen shot.
http://badnarik.org/supporters/blog/images/P1010042.JPG
02:22AM CT
I am now able to begin catching up on e-mail messages and voice mails. This one obviously caught my attention:
Stephen,
My name is Joel Beckwith. I’m a supporter of Michael’s from AZ. I’m also running for office of course. I’m writing to give you good news that today the papers of the AZLP vs. ASU and the CPD were delivered to ASU personally by myself. I just wanted to share you some photos from the event. Hopefully it will come out in Michael’s favor… …Joel Beckwith


02:37AM CT
The following document is not yet available in .pdf format, so I have typed it below:
Affidavit
Friday October 8, 2004 3:35 PM
Statement by Samuel P. New and Margaret E. Taylor
Today at approximately 2:38PM, we entered the office building at 1200 New Hampshire Ave., NW in Washington, DC in order to serve Janet Brown at the Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD) with papers handed down by Judge Pendleton Gaines, Superior Court Judge in Maricopa County, AZ. In the lobby of the office building at 1200 New Hampshire Ave., NW. we were greeted by Officer S. Mack and another security officer. Officer Mack telephoned CPD to inform them of our visit and purpose. CPD refused to allow us to proceed to their office, on the fourth floor. We asked for the name of the person refusing to accept our materials, and the security officers informed us they did not know. We asked if we could wait in the lobby, while we placed a telephone call, we were told no, we would have to go outside. After consulting Geoff Neale, we returned to the lobby and left papers with Officer Mack, who told us that they were not accepted. We then left the building. This dialogue is documented with digital pictures and an audio cassette which was recorded in plain view, and I spoke directly into it.
[signed]
Margaret E. Taylor and Samuel P. New
[notarized in the District of Columbia]
02:40AM CT
The following two documents show two more attempts at serving the CPD.
Fax Service (http://www.badnarik.org/supporters/blog/images/StephenGordonAffadavit1.pdf)
E-mail Service (http://www.badnarik.org/supporters/blog/images/StephenGordonAffadavit2.pdf)
02:51AM CT
David Euchner sent the following message to Janet Brown at CPD: From: David Euchner
Date: October 8, 2004 4:13:56 PM EDT
To: “Stephen Gordon” , jb@debates.org
Subject: Re: Order to Show Cause
Dear Ms Brown,
Please contact my office immediately at 520-326-3550 or 520-400-8324 to confirm receipt of these documents.
David Euchner
Attorney for Plaintiffs Arizona Libertarian Party, Inc. and Warren Severin

03:04AM CT
The candidate is in bed, as he has a busy day scheduled for tomorrow. The reporters must have gone to bed, as well.
Two presidential candidates - Michael Badnarik and David Cobb - were arrested tonight. Papers were served to stop the third Bush - Kerry debate today. Neither of these stories (short of the aforementioned AP wire) were covered by the mainstream media.
We now know with whom the television networks went to bed tonight.
09:35AM CT
The story has been picked up by Slashdot (http://politics.slashdot.org/politics/04/10/09/1315259.shtml?tid=103&tid=219).
10:07AM CT
I spoke with Mr. Badnarik and Jon Airheart. They were at the Chicago airport catching a connecting flight. Mr. Badnarik stated that he did not get much sleep last night. He sounded wide awake and filled with energy to me, though.
Jon said that he e-mailed some digital photographs of the arrest to me last night. I never received them. Perhaps they are floating around in the ether. Jon will resend them once he has internet access again.
11:17AM CT
The blogosphere begins to awaken. Mellifluous contributes (http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=Mellifluous&tab=weblogs&uid=142410874) the following: IF YOU BELIEVE THAT REAL DEMOCRACY THRIVES ON DIVERSE POLITICAL VOICES AND THAT THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA SUPPRESSES ALTERNATIVE VIEWS, STAND UP FOR YOUR BELIEFS. POST THE FOLLOWING ON YOUR XANGA, PROFILE, OR LIVEJOURNAL, OR E-MAIL IT TO THOSE WHO CARE.
On October 8th at 9PM, two third party candidates were arrested for attempting to enter the Washington University complex holding the second presidential debate. The candidates, Michael Badnarik of the Libertarian Party and David Cobb of the Green Party, chose civil disobedience to fight the bipartisan Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD). Over half of Americans believe third party candidates should be included, yet politicians continue to funnel public funds into the bi-partisan Commission. S.W.A.T. teams were used to deny the will of the American people while mainstream media ignored this historic event, a shameless suppression of political diversity.
Americans deserve to know about the unjust takeover of our political process. I posted this to take matters into my own hands. If you believe that real democracy thrives on diverse political voices and that it’s time to use alternative methods to support these voices, post this in your Xanga, profile, or Livejournal, or e-mail it to those who care.
12:35PM CT
The following clarification was sent from David Euchner: …First, we did succeed in serving CPD. The Badnarik people were unable to execute service in St. Louis, but the LPHQ staff in Washington were very helpful to us and got the job done at the CPD office in DC. CPD attempted to evade service in DC as well, but the whole incident is recorded on audiotape and photographs. If they send someone to argue insufficiency of service of process, and I whip out our evidence, the Judge will be none too pleased with them.
By 1:30 Arizona time, I had confirmed via telephone with George Getz, Sam New and Margaret Taylor at LPHQ, and with Warren Severin in Tempe (our individual plaintiff) that service of process was complete (ASU did not resist at all, they were congenial to the Libertarian activist who served them). I called the court and let them know and our hearing is confirmed for Tuesday morning at 9am…
…As to why we didn’t use professional process servers, the reason is simple. We were concerned that a professional would not feel the same level of urgency with getting this job done immediately that we felt. In order to serve process, there is only one requirement: that the server be 18 years old and not a party to the case. LPHQ staffers certainly had other things to do with their time, but when I explained the situation to them they were extraordinarily helpful. Kudos to George Getz and Sam New and Margaret Taylor for a job well done.
I think that answers all the questions posed here. Now that the logistics are taken care of, I need to prepare my oral argument for Tuesday morning. Wish me luck!
David Euchner
Attorney for Arizona Libertarian Party
12:46PM CT
Here is a digitized version of the affidavit (http://thelfactor.org/assets/images/AffSvcCPD.jpg) signed by Sam New and Margaret Taylor.
1:54PM CT
The story is now covered at e.thePeople (http://www.e-thepeople.org/article/35752/). Here is a exerpt: You would think that Fox News, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, and MSNBC would be all over this affront to the democratic process, but no, not a peep.
Badnarik was also attempting to serve the Commission on Presidential Debates with a “Show Cause Order,” issued by an Arizona judge, requiring the CPD to appear at a hearing concerning the Libertarian Party’s lawsuit to stop the upcoming debate at Arizona State University, as an illegal campaign contribution to Bush and Kerry, an unconstitutional use of Arizona state funds to support selected candidates, and a violation of the LP’s equal protection rights, since they are a recognized political party in Arizona.
If this happened in some other country, what would we call them? Undemocratic? Human rights violations? Unbelievable?
If you think America is a free country, you are sadly mistaken. If you think the news media aren’t controlled by the same people who control the Democrat and Republican parties, think again.
2:31PM CT
The photographs may not have arrived yet, but here is one person’s depiction of last night’s events:
http://badnarik.org/supporters/blog/images/cartoon.jpg
2:49PM CT
Reason Magazine Hit and Run provided some not-so-good coverage (http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2004/10/free_badnarik.shtml#006908) while Boing Boing has decided to cover the basic facts (http://www.boingboing.net/2004/10/09/both_presidential_ca.html)




The cartoon made me chuckle.

Lomax
10-14-2004, 02:34 AM
As a former official of the Libertarian Party I'd like to say that this clown's futile attempt to be recognized as a serious alternative is nothing but an embarrassment for his party and its members.

listopencil
10-14-2004, 02:36 AM
And how do you propose to bring publicity to the party?

Taco John
10-14-2004, 02:41 AM
I think it was an excellent publicity stunt and am pleased that someone in the Libertarian Party is finally getting the balls to raise awareness that there is a viable third party out there.

That's right. I said it.

Viable.

Lomax
10-14-2004, 02:47 AM
Sorry. I've been inside the party for years. It's nothing like viable. But it is gratifying to individualists who can't bring themselves to vote for Party A1 or Party A2.

Ultra Peanut
10-14-2004, 03:12 AM
Go Badnarik and Cobb. The Greens are a bit loopy, but I fully support their right to participate, as well.

Taco John
10-14-2004, 03:54 AM
Sorry. I've been inside the party for years. It's nothing like viable. But it is gratifying to individualists who can't bring themselves to vote for Party A1 or Party A2.



Wow. You sound really dedicated.

That's admirable. ROFL

Ari Chi3fs
10-14-2004, 04:19 AM
Im gonna vote Viable.

Ultra Peanut
10-14-2004, 06:15 AM
Vote Viable & Electable in 2004!

Hydrae
10-14-2004, 07:52 PM
Wow, even here on the Planet where the politics fly fast and furious it was a week after the fact before this was posted. Not only were these two candidates excluded from the debate process and wound up being arrested for attempting to be included but the press completely ignored this happening. I tell you, there are times I despair for this great country of ours.

Hydrae
10-14-2004, 08:52 PM
So there was supposed to be a hearing in Maricopa county on 10/12/2004 at 9:00 AM. Is there anyone in that area who can check on what happened with this hearing since I highly doubt we will see it in the media? It was Case Number CV2004-019089 and more info can be found here (http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2004-019089) .

wazu
10-14-2004, 08:52 PM
Sorry. I've been inside the party for years. It's nothing like viable. But it is gratifying to individualists who can't bring themselves to vote for Party A1 or Party A2.

:rolleyes:

Republican.

Inspector
10-14-2004, 09:21 PM
Wow.

I totally misunderstood what the United States of America was suppossed to be about when I took civics back in the 60's.

This was the kind of stuff I always associated to Russia - pre Reagan.

Scary. What happened to our country? Our founding fathers are rolling in their graves.

A sad day for the USA, and basically nobody knows about it.

The major media outlets in this country should be ashamed of themselves. Why wasn't this a lead story on every network? Man, this freaks me out.

Is it safe to be a Libertarian?

Inspector
10-14-2004, 09:23 PM
As a former official of the Libertarian Party I'd like to say that this clown's futile attempt to be recognized as a serious alternative is nothing but an embarrassment for his party and its members.


I've always tried to be friendly here, but I gotta say, screw you A-hole!

Taco John
10-14-2004, 09:29 PM
The major media outlets in this country should be ashamed of themselves. Why wasn't this a lead story on every network? Man, this freaks me out.



No doubt... The media spent a full day on John Kerry's tan. A couple of leading "third party" candidates get arrested for their protest, and nothing.

I don't believe in the boogey monster "liberal media." But I sure as hell believe in the corporate, government bootlicker media.

Jenson17
10-14-2004, 09:40 PM
Wow.
...

The major media outlets in this country should be ashamed of themselves. Why wasn't this a lead story on every network? Man, this freaks me out.

Is it safe to be a Libertarian?

You know why the media didn't cover this? Because no one in the country besides a very small minority of misfits and rejects even care...

Third party candidates, generally, are a joke. The only ones who succeed do so when they are essential bastardizations of a major party, OR when a major party has ceased to be viable....neither of those circumstances apply. Hence, no one cares....

KCWolfman
10-14-2004, 09:42 PM
You know why the media didn't cover this? Because no one in the country besides a very small minority of misfits and rejects even care...

Third party candidates, generally, are a joke. The only ones who succeed do so when they are essential bastardizations of a major party, OR when a major party has ceased to be viable....neither of those circumstances apply. Hence, no one cares....
Yup, TJ needs to apply his "life" definition to political parties. If it can't live on its own, it's not a real political party.

Get 2 or 3 governors, a few Senators, and several members of the House all at the same time, then look to the POTUS seat.

wazu
10-14-2004, 09:49 PM
Get 2 or 3 governors, a few Senators, and several members of the House all at the same time, then look to the POTUS seat.

Getting 1 of any of those would be a tremendous start. The problem is, it almost has to work the opposite way. To the average American, the loudest voice for a political party is the Presidential candidates during their campaign. If a famous candidate were to surprisingly run on the Libertarian platform and get enough support to join the debates, it would probably do wonders for the credibility of their party. They would finally have somebody broadcasting the Libertarian point of view to the masses.

After that, maybe you would see a few upsets around the country as Libertarians got more traction.

Jenson17
10-14-2004, 10:00 PM
No doubt... The media spent a full day on John Kerry's tan. A couple of leading "third party" candidates get arrested for their protest, and nothing.

I don't believe in the boogey monster "liberal media." But I sure as hell believe in the corporate, government bootlicker media.

Whatever, dude...

Hydrae
10-14-2004, 10:04 PM
You know why the media didn't cover this? Because no one in the country besides a very small minority of misfits and rejects even care...

Third party candidates, generally, are a joke. The only ones who succeed do so when they are essential bastardizations of a major party, OR when a major party has ceased to be viable....neither of those circumstances apply. Hence, no one cares....


Maybe a few more people would care if they knew about it. Heck, we have spent a lot of typing just on this site today about Cheney's daughter and whether it was reasonable for Kerry to mention her in the debate last night. But I found this thread on the second page! Priorities are screwed up in this country and I do't see it changing anytime soon.

KCWolfman
10-14-2004, 10:17 PM
Getting 1 of any of those would be a tremendous start. The problem is, it almost has to work the opposite way. To the average American, the loudest voice for a political party is the Presidential candidates during their campaign. If a famous candidate were to surprisingly run on the Libertarian platform and get enough support to join the debates, it would probably do wonders for the credibility of their party. They would finally have somebody broadcasting the Libertarian point of view to the masses.

After that, maybe you would see a few upsets around the country as Libertarians got more traction.
There is no "average" American. Those that honestly stood the best chance to run away from those tickets have been beat down. Granted "Perot" is not the best example, but John Anderson was a likeable intelligent person. Steve Forbes is a freakin' genius with honest viewpoints.

Get someone who started on a city council and is a current Governor of a larger more succesful state, and then you stand a chance.

Inspector
10-14-2004, 10:46 PM
You know why the media didn't cover this? Because no one in the country besides a very small minority of misfits and rejects even care...

Third party candidates, generally, are a joke. The only ones who succeed do so when they are essential bastardizations of a major party, OR when a major party has ceased to be viable....neither of those circumstances apply. Hence, no one cares....

You don't watch much of what the media covers, do you?

I have seen plenty of crap get coverage that I think "nobody cares about". (IMO)

Are you suggesting that everything that gets media attention are things that everybody cares about? Maybe that's just your opinion, just like my views are my opinion.

You will be amamzed at how much knowledge you will gain as you live many more years of your life. Happens to everyone. Some people even change their views as they age and gain more insight. Some don't.


While a lot of people don't agree, (which is cool) I and a heck of a lot of people do think this is a very newsworthy item. Your opinion, like mine, doesn't make it right, just right for ourselves.

As a concerned American I want to see changes happen in this country. I want to have a second choice for my vote. You should work to further the political party you believe in and I should do the same. And I am. It's part of being a good citizen of this country - again IMO.

I respect you and others who view this differently than me. It's part of what makes this a great country.

Taco John
10-14-2004, 11:18 PM
Yup, TJ needs to apply his "life" definition to political parties. If it can't live on its own, it's not a real political party.




Since when is that my "life" definition?

DonksRCrap
10-15-2004, 08:10 AM
Since when is that my "life" definition?

Your position on abortion? Duh.

unlurking
10-15-2004, 08:38 AM
So there was supposed to be a hearing in Maricopa county on 10/12/2004 at 9:00 AM. Is there anyone in that area who can check on what happened with this hearing since I highly doubt we will see it in the media? It was Case Number CV2004-019089 and more info can be found here (http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2004-019089) .

From:
http://www.lp.org./lpnews/0411/judge-rules.html

Arizona judge rules against Libertarians in debate lawsuit

An Arizona Superior Court judge refused Tuesday to allow Libertarian presidential candidate Michael Badnarik into the third Bush-Kerry presidential debate -- and he rejected arguments that the debate to be held tonight at Arizona State University is being illegally financed with public funds.

David Euchner, the attorney representing the Libertarian Party of Arizona, argued that the university is violating the state constitution by giving public funds to only two of the three presidential candidates on the ballot -- President George W. Bush and Sen. John Kerry -- while excluding the third, Badnarik.

Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Pendleton Gaines said the Libertarian Party waited too long to file suit. The suit naming the university and the Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD) was filed on Oct. 1.

But filing earlier would have been impossible, said Stephen Gordon, communications director for the Badnarik campaign.

"The Washington Post reported that Bush did not even agree to debate until Sept. 20," Gordon said. "The CPD did not announce who would be excluded until Oct. 6. We did this in the most timely manner possible.

"Additionally, we filed in enough time that this hearing could have occurred earlier than the day before the debate."

In the suit, the party sought one of two possible resolutions: Either the debate could be called off unless Badnarik was included, or the 17,000 registered Libertarian voters in Arizona could be reimbursed -- since tax money was being used to fund a debate from which their candidate had been excluded.

"There are three recognized parties in Arizona, the Democrats, the Republicans and the Libertarians, and they all have the same status," Gordon said in an American Politics Today interview Tuesday night.

"There are three candidates for president on the ballot, the Democrat, the Republican and the Libertarian. But only the Libertarian, Michael Badnarik, is being excluded from the debate."

The Libertarians have been unable to find out exactly how much public money is being spent on the debate, but representatives of the university admitted that they have not received enough private donations to recoup the estimated $2.5 million spent to host the event.

Also, the Tempe City Council contributed $20,000 to help defray the costs of the debate, and that money is certainly public funds, Gordon said.

As of Tuesday night, the judge's written ruling was unavailable. However, his decision did leave the party free "to seek compensation for damages" in a civil suit, Gordon noted.

No decision has been reached as to when such a suit would be filed, or exactly who the defendants would be.

"We are considering all of our options and it is safe to assume that you may expect more actions from us over the next few days," Gordon said.

DonksRCrap
10-15-2004, 08:41 AM
Bottom-line: MICHAEL BADNARIK broke the law....there are consequences. End of story.

unlurking
10-15-2004, 08:44 AM
You know why the media didn't cover this? Because no one in the country besides a very small minority of misfits and rejects even care...

Third party candidates, generally, are a joke. The only ones who succeed do so when they are essential bastardizations of a major party, OR when a major party has ceased to be viable....neither of those circumstances apply. Hence, no one cares....
Dude, you are an idiot.

Get your ass ripped about Vietnam and admit that your understanding of history is lacking, probably spend more time jacking off to Britney Spear posters in your room, and then come on hear attacking anyone who does not agree with the "life-long" experience and wisdom of a teenager?!?!?!

Dude, had you even hit puberty when Clinton was gettin' sum in the oval office?!?! Have YOU ever gotten sum? Probably not, but I'll bet you feel you can tell everyone else on the board how it's done right, huh?

Pathetic.

DonksRCrap
10-15-2004, 08:46 AM
Dude, you are an idiot.

Get your ass ripped about Vietnam and admit that your understanding of history is lacking, probably spend more time jacking off to Britney Spear posters in your room, and then come on hear attacking anyone who does not agree with the "life-long" experience and wisdom of a teenager?!?!?!

Dude, had you even hit puberty when Clinton was gettin' sum in the oval office?!?! Have YOU ever gotten sum? Probably not, but I'll bet you feel you can tell everyone else on the board how it's done right, huh?

Pathetic.

WHY do you assume I'm a "teenager?"

unlurking
10-15-2004, 08:47 AM
There is no "average" American. Those that honestly stood the best chance to run away from those tickets have been beat down. Granted "Perot" is not the best example, but John Anderson was a likeable intelligent person. Steve Forbes is a freakin' genius with honest viewpoints.

Get someone who started on a city council and is a current Governor of a larger more succesful state, and then you stand a chance.

Agreed 100%. Voting my beliefs anyway though, including Libertarians for local government positions. Split between Dem and Repub on positions that don't have a Libertarian candidate, but mostly Repub. Unfortunately there is no way in hell I am voting for Pete Coors.

unlurking
10-15-2004, 08:48 AM
WHY do you assume I'm a "teenager?"
Re-read my post. I didn't quote u.

Jenson17
10-15-2004, 08:53 AM
Re-read my post. I didn't quote u.

Then I'll ask the question; why do you assume I'm a teenager?

FWIW, 17 is a reference to my birth day; NOT age.

unlurking
10-15-2004, 09:01 AM
hmmmm

Jenson17 and Jenson71

Just realized that there are two different accounts with the name Jenson.

One that admits he is studying Euro and US history for the first time, and one that doesn't seem to add anything substantive to a political discussion, just flaming others.

Don't know if they are one and the same or not, but you are still an ass.

Jenson17 is the one that called me a misfit and/or reject by belittling any and all 3rd parties.

So whether my pre-pubescent references still fit or not, you are still an idiot.




Edit:

Hmmm

I see similarities between the two titles and tribes of both Jensons. Am I missing a relationship between the two?

Jenson17
10-15-2004, 09:06 AM
hmmmm


I see similarities between the two titles and tribes of both Jensons. Am I missing a relationship between the two?

Could be....

Lightning Rod
10-15-2004, 09:36 AM
Probably the only way ( not that it would ever happen) for the Libertarians to get a voice on the big stage, would be for a moderate like a Colin Powell, or John McCain from the Republican side or perhaps Senator John Breaux of the Democrats to Jump ship in mid campaign like Anderson did. Not likely to ever happen but if a guy like Powell were to do this, it would instantly give a voice and perceived legitimacy to a third party. Frankly I think Powell is too smart to want the job.

wazu
10-16-2004, 01:40 AM
Frankly I think Powell is too smart to want the job.

I don't get that. Why is it "smart" to not want to be President of the United States?

Taco Bell
10-16-2004, 01:46 AM
I don't get that. Why is it "smart" to not want to be President of the United States?

Because of the BS the press drags you and your family through.

whoman69
10-16-2004, 09:51 AM
These guys don't even hit 5% on the polls and yet they demand to be put up with people who have a chance to win the election? If they want to be president, get some people elected to lower office. They want the highest office in the land without building a base of support.

unlurking
10-16-2004, 12:40 PM
These guys don't even hit 5% on the polls and yet they demand to be put up with people who have a chance to win the election? If they want to be president, get some people elected to lower office. They want the highest office in the land without building a base of support.
No they don't.

It's just publicity stunts. They know that the only way to further the cause (getting more officials elected to lower offices), is through public education about the party. They know they don't have a shot at the WH. But when is the nation ever more "open" to political issues and discussions than during presidential campaigns?

Hydrae
10-16-2004, 01:09 PM
The thing that gets me with the media in all of this is how much we hear about Nader as the third party candidate. Nader is on the ballot in 35 states, Badnarik in 47 states plus the District of Columbia. If he is on ballots in nearly every state why should he be excluded from the publicity from the debates?

wazu
10-16-2004, 05:13 PM
Because of the BS the press drags you and your family through.

Yes, but you get to see the Nuclear Football.

Taco Bell
10-16-2004, 06:13 PM
Yes, but you get to see the Nuclear Football.

Very true.

Lightning Rod
10-16-2004, 06:59 PM
I don't get that. Why is it "smart" to not want to be President of the United States?


He could make more money giving speaches and be a lot less likely to be shot.

unlurking
10-16-2004, 07:01 PM
He could make more money giving speaches and be a lot less likely to be shot.
What about presidential kick backs?!

We all know if Kerry gets elected that ketchup prices will soar to $50 a barrel!

;)

whoman69
10-16-2004, 07:37 PM
The thing that gets me with the media in all of this is how much we hear about Nader as the third party candidate. Nader is on the ballot in 35 states, Badnarik in 47 states plus the District of Columbia. If he is on ballots in nearly every state why should he be excluded from the publicity from the debates?
Where do you draw the line? There are alot of parties that are on the ballot in a majority of states, but none except Republicans and Democrats stand a chance. They want to be in the debates, make them earn it. They need to build their fortunes at a grass roots level and make their cause known across the country by those who represent them in our government, not by stupid publicity stunts.

unlurking
10-16-2004, 07:41 PM
Where do you draw the line? There are alot of parties that are on the ballot in a majority of states, but none except Republicans and Democrats stand a chance. They want to be in the debates, make them earn it. They need to build their fortunes at a grass roots level and make their cause known across the country by those who represent them in our government, not by stupid publicity stunts.
Agreed, but I think getting on ALL 50 ballots would enough to get a 3rd party into the debates. 3rd party candidates definitely do need to work the grass roots campaigns, but we need to set some sort of "goal" to determine when they should be allowed in. I don't know what that goal would/should be, but it would be nice to have something more than an idea of what it takes. Kind of a "you must be this tall to ride" type of measurement.

BIG_DADDY
10-16-2004, 07:51 PM
Where do you draw the line? There are alot of parties that are on the ballot in a majority of states, but none except Republicans and Democrats stand a chance. They want to be in the debates, make them earn it. They need to build their fortunes at a grass roots level and make their cause known across the country by those who represent them in our government, not by stupid publicity stunts.

They need the publicity stunts. The Demorats and Republicans will never let them in unless they are a real threat. Letting them in only weakens the two party system. Badnarik is a member of the 3rd largest and fastest growing party in America, he deserves to be heard IMO and I will give him my vote. It's not like my vote counts here anyway.

unlurking
10-16-2004, 07:55 PM
They need the publicity stunts. The Demorats and Republicans will never let them in unless they are a real threat. Letting them in only weakens the two party system. Badnarik is a member of the 3rd largest and fastest growing party in America, he deserves to be heard IMO and I will give him my vote. It's not like my vote counts here anyway.
I agree with this too. I guess my problem is I don't believe they would be let in ESPECIALLY if they were a real threat.

Hydrae
10-16-2004, 08:38 PM
Where do you draw the line? There are alot of parties that are on the ballot in a majority of states, but none except Republicans and Democrats stand a chance. They want to be in the debates, make them earn it. They need to build their fortunes at a grass roots level and make their cause known across the country by those who represent them in our government, not by stupid publicity stunts.


I agree, where do you draw the line? At what point do you consider another party to be "worthy" of being "allowed" to join the process in a mainstream manner?

Why is it that Nader gets press and Badnarik, on many more ballots, gets shut out? A large percentage of people will do the same thing this election they have done for too many years, vote for what they perceive to be the lesser of two evils. That is exactly why I did not vote in any presidential election before 2000, why waste my time voting for someone I didn't really want to see in there to begin with.

There is all kinds of talk about campaign reforms that are needed. Maybe we could start by recognizing that there are more than 2 opinions in this country and we should let the 60+% that don't vote to be made aware that there is a choice out there that they might actually be able to get behind.

Sorry but democracy in this country is in a shambles and I am a little surprised that any country looking at us would want the same form of government.

listopencil
10-16-2004, 09:01 PM
There is all kinds of talk about campaign reforms that are needed. Maybe we could start by recognizing that there are more than 2 opinions in this country and we should let the 60+% that don't vote to be made aware that there is a choice out there that they might actually be able to get behind.


I found a web site showing the demographics for the 2000 Presidential election and remember noting that more than 50% of the Voting Age Population didn't vote. I don't remember the exact number (therefore I'm not arguing with your figure of 60+%) but I remember the thought sticking in my mind that with the last election being so close that less than 25% of voters actually voted for the current President. I don't view this as a knock on Bush II's legitimacy, just as a sign of how little our system's results reflect what Americans really want in a President. If even half of the people who didn't vote last time had decided to endorse a third party because they felt disenfranchised, that candidate would be President right now.

listopencil
10-16-2004, 09:06 PM
Oh, by the way, if any public funds whatsoever are used for the debates than it's a steaming pile of horseshit not to let other candidates into it. This would be the Democrats and Republicans stealing money from me to further their respective campaigns and to continue the dominance of the two party system. Neither of which I plan to vote for. Libertarians and other "Independants" should get a refund of public funds used for this purpose.

unlurking
10-16-2004, 09:23 PM
Oh, by the way, if any public funds whatsoever are used for the debates than it's a steaming pile of horseshit not to let other candidates into it. This would be the Democrats and Republicans stealing money from me to further their respective campaigns and to continue the dominance of the two party system. Neither of which I plan to vote for. Libertarians and other "Independants" should get a refund of public funds used for this purpose.
The judge in the Mariposa court case regarding this actually said that was an option for Libertarians to pursue in a civil case when there injunction against the Arizona debates was denied. (tax refund that is)

listopencil
10-16-2004, 09:45 PM
The judge in the Mariposa court case regarding this actually said that was an option for Libertarians to pursue in a civil case when there injunction against the Arizona debates was denied. (tax refund that is)


Yep, I caught that. The Libertarian Party has a legal group that regularly challenges government authorities and has had some success. I imagine that they will go after this one. It could get very interesting.

unlurking
10-16-2004, 10:03 PM
Yep, I caught that. The Libertarian Party has a legal group that regularly challenges government authorities and has had some success. I imagine that they will go after this one. It could get very interesting.
That's what I was thinking.

Did you see the article about the Libertarians being the ONLY party on the ballot in South Carolina? I know it won't stay that way, but had to laugh when I read it:


Only Libertarians on South Carolina ballots?

If South Carolina election law is followed, only Libertarians will be on the ballot for partisan elections in many of the state's counties, according to Garry Baum, the state Election Commission's chief public information officer.

Responding to a letter from Jasper County Libertarian Party Chairman Michael Edward Jones regarding this law, Baum told the Carolina Morning News that Jones's statements are true but that the law typically isn't followed.

According to state law, "all [political party] officers except delegates shall be reported to the clerk of court of the county and to the secretary of state prior to the election. The reports shall be public record."

"In the eight years that the Jasper County Libertarian Party has registered with the Clerk of Court of this county, as required by law … our representatives have been verbally informed, upon their filing for county precinct and party verification, that neither the Republican nor the Democratic parties of this county have filed paperwork with the Clerk of Court for such verification," Jones said in his letter.

"If this is true, than the Libertarian Party is the only registered legal party in Jasper County. Thus it follows that, in partisan elections, only Libertarians may be listed on the ballot."

Jasper Clerk of Court Margaret Bostick confirmed for the local newspaper that only the Libertarian Party had registered with her office.

Does this mean that only the LP will be on the ballot for all partisan races -- including the presidential election -- throughout the state?

Almost certainly not.

Baum said he "didn't think the situation will cause any problems with the November elections," the Carolina Morning News report says.

"Yes, parties must certify with clerks of court, but I'm not sure if it is all that common," he said.

Even the Libertarian Party of Jasper County doesn't really expect the elections to be affected by the realization that neither the Republicans nor the Democrats bother following state election law, one member said.

South Carolina LP Chair "Chris Panos and I have contacted all of the county chairs in the state to let them know about this," said Bea Jones, a Libertarian city councilwoman in Hardeeville, SC, who is also Michael Jones's wife.

"We passed along the information that none of the Republicans or Democrats file their paperwork with the clerk of courts in any of the counties, so they should technically not be allowed on the ballot," she said.

"We don't think the election will be overturned, but we have to bring it to people's attention that the Democrats and Republicans make the laws -- then don't bother following them."

It's unfortunate that it falls to the Libertarian Party to make sure that the other parties follow the law, Michael Jones said in his letter to the election commission, noting that it isn't the responsibility of any one party to make sure that the other parties follow the law.

"It is the Election Commission's responsibility to verify their legality, and to display nonpartisan and equal access to all political parties," he said. "I am deeply concerned about this display of partisanship in a supposedly nonpartisan, appointed body, and request that you rectify this immediately."

Jones also pointed out that the Libertarians had not been notified of -- or invited to -- the county's voting machine programming, as the law requires.

"I was therefore unable to verify the accuracy or veracity of any Libertarian candidates listed, or even of their existence on the ballot for Jasper County in the upcoming general election," he said.