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BroWhippendiddle
10-16-2004, 01:40 PM
Governor and A Shooting in Fort Worth By Dr. Paul Kengor

This week marks the fifth anniversary of one of the worst weeks in the history of Fort Worth, Texas. What happened that week was a demonstration of evil and good, of a mad killer at work and a kind community in mourning. The week also revealed something about the man who now sits in the White House.

On September 15, 1999, a deranged man in a black trench coat entered a church in Ft. Worth, Texas, armed with bullets and a pipe bomb. He approached a group of worshippers in the foyer awaiting choir practice. He asked about a prayer meeting, and then began shooting. He headed to the sanctuary, which he sprayed with gunfire as he shouted obscenities. Seven were dead and many more injured. A teenage boy stopped the slaughter when he yelled out defiantly, "You can kill me but you can't kill my faith!" Upon hearing those words, the assassin found a pew, sat down, and shot himself.

The first person murdered that day was Sydney Browning, a seminary graduate and local educator who was selected Teacher of the Year at her high school two years in a row. She was hit in the head and chest at point-blank range and died instantly. Her father, Don, has obviously never forgotten that day, nor the compassion from the community he saw in the days that followed. "I never saw anything grip the city like that," he says today.

The morning after the massacre an impromptu prayer session was held at the pastor's house. The church was now a crime scene, filled with police, coroners, chalked lines, bullet-ridden oak walls, and blood-soaked carpets. A surprise attendee at that prayer session was Texas Governor George W. Bush, who made the 186-mile trip from Austin. He arrived unannounced and left almost as quietly. A church of God had been converted into a Texas killing field, and the governor came to offer his personal prayers.

So overwhelming was the outpouring of grief that the shocked community was forced to hold the memorial service at the football stadium at Texas Christian University. Sydney Browning's father was asked to speak at the service. When he arrived backstage before the event, he unexpectedly encountered the Texas governor. The two men shook hands. "Are you coming into this a believer?" Bush asked. Browning nodded. "God bless you," said Bush. "I'm praying for you." The service organizers then asked their unanticipated guest if he would like to sit at the platform with the other VIPs. The governor replied, "No, this isn't about me," and sat in the stands among the thousands.

Browning spoke last. The choir director had long ago connected with his little girl through music, and he thought it fitting to finish his remarks by extemporaneously singing the first song his daughter had sung in public. "This little light of mine, I'm gonna' let it shine," he began, asking the audience to join him. Browning paused to note that the last verse of the song reads: "Let it shine 'til Jesus comes." He told the crowd that his daughter no longer needs to sing that last line, but the rest of them do. The tribute closed with that. When the service ended, the governor approached Browning once more. "That was great," said Bush, clasping Browning's hand. "I couldn't have done it."

George W. Bush then exited as he came: low-key, with no cameras. He had said nothing profound or poetic. One can understand why his appearance went unreported. His response was memorable only for its lack of showiness. In both visits after the shooting, Bush avoided the press, told no one he was coming, stayed, prayed, paid his respects, talked
briefly to the families, and then silently drove away.

My home sits 1,300 miles from Ft. Worth. I learned of this story while researching George W. Bush's faith. Someone recommended I look into this terrible incident. That someone suggested I telephone his friend, Don Browning. One day in April 2004 I did just that, and spent an hour on the telephone with Mr. Browning, who recounted to me (a stranger) the awful details of the Texas church shooting that took the life of his beloved daughter, Sydney. I'm sure my call ruined his day. Still, through that tragedy, Don Browning saw a side of the current president that the rest of us have not, and felt that side needed to be told.

It's easy to demonize our politicians, whether they are George W. Bush or John F. Kerry. It's also easy to dehumanize them, to forget they are human beings. And that was George W. Bush, now the world's most powerful man, five years ago this week-not a politician but just a person grieving with the rest of Texas.

Phobia
10-16-2004, 01:58 PM
Nice. I have nothing to add.

unlurking
10-16-2004, 03:41 PM
Nice.

I wish political battles were waged with this type of action. I know I'd like to see more of the "human" side of our nations politicians.

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 07:05 AM
Nice.

I wish political battles were waged with this type of action. I know I'd like to see more of the "human" side of our nations politicians.
Typically you will not see this type of story in the media, because as in this story, Bush did not allow media in. I've heard some stories that have indicated that he is still like this, but even if the media knew about it they would quash it because it doesn't fit their agenda. You won't see anything like this about Kerry unless he starts manufacturing the stories for political use. In my opinion he is totally out of touch with the typical American and their needs, wants and desires. What percentage of people fall into the categories of "loses" that Kerry has claimed against Bush? 500,000 people lost health insurance. What is the population of the U.S.? The math is easy. What is the percentage in relation to the working public? Those numbers sound less significant when used, but Kerry doesn't use them. What is that same number during a typical year/administration? How many administrations had to find a way to survive the attacks like the ones on 9/11? There are many accusations thrown out by Kerry that have more reason than Bush was President when they happened.

Let's keep track, just in case Kerry, the lying POS, wins the election. What will those same numbers reveal in the following election? I don't think he is supposed to win, it is a ploy by the democrats to prime the next election for Billary.

BigOlChiefsfan
10-17-2004, 07:52 AM
Kerry-cter? See this year old Dave Barry column:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/dave_barry/6761106.htm?1c

In conclusion, I want to extend my sincere best wishes to all of my opponents, Republican and Democrat, and to state that, in the unlikely event I am not elected, I will support whoever is, even if it is Sen. John Kerry, who once came, with his entourage, into a ski-rental shop in Ketchum, Idaho, where I was waiting patiently with my family to rent snowboards, and Sen. Kerry used one of his lackeys to flagrantly barge in line ahead of us and everybody else, as if he had some urgent senatorial need for a snowboard, like there was about to be an emergency meeting, out on the slopes, of the Joint Halfpipe Committee. I say it's time for us, as a nation, to put this unpleasant incident behind us. I know that I, for one, have forgotten all about it. That is how fair and balanced I am.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 08:50 AM
Typically you will not see this type of story in the media, because as in this story, Bush did not allow media in. I've heard some stories that have indicated that he is still like this, but even if the media knew about it they would quash it because it doesn't fit their agenda. You won't see anything like this about Kerry unless he starts manufacturing the stories for political use. In my opinion he is totally out of touch with the typical American and their needs, wants and desires. What percentage of people fall into the categories of "loses" that Kerry has claimed against Bush? 500,000 people lost health insurance. What is the population of the U.S.? The math is easy. What is the percentage in relation to the working public? Those numbers sound less significant when used, but Kerry doesn't use them. What is that same number during a typical year/administration? How many administrations had to find a way to survive the attacks like the ones on 9/11? There are many accusations thrown out by Kerry that have more reason than Bush was President when they happened.

Let's keep track, just in case Kerry, the lying POS, wins the election. What will those same numbers reveal in the following election? I don't think he is supposed to win, it is a ploy by the democrats to prime the next election for Billary.
As an agnostic and a member of the middle class, I don't believe either candidate has ANY IDEA what life is like for me or the average American.

I'm glad to see that Bush took an interest in the church shooting, and that impresses me, but this does nothing to convince me is anything more than a member of the religious right. I'm sure he had deep feelings regarding this incident, he still didn't reform SS like he said he would. If (and I'm guessing he will) he gets re-elected, I doubt he'll perform the promised reform in the next four years.

I'm sorry, there has just been TOO MUCH FUD slinging from both sides to change anyone's mind with a fluff piece or two.

Too little, too late.

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 02:18 PM
As an agnostic and a member of the middle class, I don't believe either candidate has ANY IDEA what life is like for me or the average American.

I'm glad to see that Bush took an interest in the church shooting, and that impresses me, but this does nothing to convince me is anything more than a member of the religious right. I'm sure he had deep feelings regarding this incident, he still didn't reform SS like he said he would. If (and I'm guessing he will) he gets re-elected, I doubt he'll perform the promised reform in the next four years.

I'm sorry, there has just been TOO MUCH FUD slinging from both sides to change anyone's mind with a fluff piece or two.

Too little, too late.

Your inability to grasp the meaning of religion and it's base in America is of no consequence. You are right they don't know what it is like to be an average American, but at least Bush has made attempts to connect and get a feel of what it is like. Kerry is still using his "rich guy" tactics in his everyday life.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 02:45 PM
Who the F*CK cares about Kerry?!?!

I commended Bush for his actions, and you try and turn around and bash Kerry? Ask me if I care.

Try reading what I post, and if I need to say it for the umpteenth time, I am voting Badnarik because I don't agree with the stance either Kerry or Bush have taken on 95% of the actual issues.

My inabililty to grasp the meaning of religion and it;s base in America?!?!?

WTF?!?!

I grasp the fact that more people have DIED in the name of religion than in any other cause! How's that for a moral right for you?

headsnap
10-17-2004, 03:04 PM
I grasp the fact that more people have DIED in the name of religion than in any other cause! How's that for a moral right for you?and the religion of Science made most of those deaths possible... ;)

Cochise
10-17-2004, 03:08 PM
Kerry-cter? See this year old Dave Barry column:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/dave_barry/6761106.htm?1c

In conclusion, I want to extend my sincere best wishes to all of my opponents, Republican and Democrat, and to state that, in the unlikely event I am not elected, I will support whoever is, even if it is Sen. John Kerry, who once came, with his entourage, into a ski-rental shop in Ketchum, Idaho, where I was waiting patiently with my family to rent snowboards, and Sen. Kerry used one of his lackeys to flagrantly barge in line ahead of us and everybody else, as if he had some urgent senatorial need for a snowboard, like there was about to be an emergency meeting, out on the slopes, of the Joint Halfpipe Committee. I say it's time for us, as a nation, to put this unpleasant incident behind us. I know that I, for one, have forgotten all about it. That is how fair and balanced I am.

That's about the 100th story I've seen about sKerry cutting in line, demanding freebies, etc. The only thing it's missing is "don't you know who I am?"

Cochise
10-17-2004, 03:23 PM
I grasp the fact that more people have DIED in the name of religion than in any other cause! How's that for a moral right for you?

I would suspect that there's no way to substantiate this common figure of speech, and that a miniscule percentage of people even think about whether or not it's true before using it because it serves the purposes of the argument. I don't suppose you have gone on such a quest?

I would also suspect that as many people have died in the name of a humanist world view as a religious one. A humanist worldview, the view that man determines for himself what is right and wrong, kills 4,400 unborn children every day.

But among those who make it out of the womb, to begin the humanist tally for the "number of people died in the name of" contest, one would need to count the work of Josef Stalin (who was actually a seminary student before his change of worldview), around 20 million people or so, throw in Hitler's > 6 million, Kim Il Sung in Korea had several million. Mao in China, the consummate atheist state, with around 20 million, Pol Pot, around 2 million. Plus who knows how many members of a supporting cast such the Pinocets and Idi Amins of world history.

Something tells me that even if we quantified it as best we could, that humanism would come out ahead of religion, if not for all-time, definitely in the past 2-300 years.

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 03:58 PM
Who the F*CK cares about Kerry?!?!

I commended Bush for his actions, and you try and turn around and bash Kerry? Ask me if I care.

Try reading what I post, and if I need to say it for the umpteenth time, I am voting Badnarik because I don't agree with the stance either Kerry or Bush have taken on 95% of the actual issues.

My inabililty to grasp the meaning of religion and it;s base in America?!?!?

WTF?!?!

I grasp the fact that more people have DIED in the name of religion than in any other cause! How's that for a moral right for you?

You seem to get pissed off easily. You also seem to be a flip-flop type just like Kerry.

So you voting for Badnarik?

Chief Henry
10-17-2004, 04:05 PM
Who the F*CK cares about Kerry?!?!

I commended Bush for his actions, and you try and turn around and bash Kerry? Ask me if I care.

Try reading what I post, and if I need to say it for the umpteenth time, I am voting Badnarik because I don't agree with the stance either Kerry or Bush have taken on 95% of the actual issues.

My inabililty to grasp the meaning of religion and it;s base in America?!?!?

WTF?!?!

I grasp the fact that more people have DIED in the name of religion than in any other cause! How's that for a moral right for you?



Lighten up Frances...

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:07 PM
and the religion of Science made most of those deaths possible... ;)
So I'm guessing you are against the 2nd ammendment?

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:08 PM
I would suspect that there's no way to substantiate this common figure of speech, and that a miniscule percentage of people even think about whether or not it's true before using it because it serves the purposes of the argument. I don't suppose you have gone on such a quest?

I would also suspect that as many people have died in the name of a humanist world view as a religious one. A humanist worldview, the view that man determines for himself what is right and wrong, kills 4,400 unborn children every day.

But among those who make it out of the womb, to begin the humanist tally for the "number of people died in the name of" contest, one would need to count the work of Josef Stalin (who was actually a seminary student before his change of worldview), around 20 million people or so, throw in Hitler's > 6 million, Kim Il Sung in Korea had several million. Mao in China, the consummate atheist state, with around 20 million, Pol Pot, around 2 million. Plus who knows how many members of a supporting cast such the Pinocets and Idi Amins of world history.

Something tells me that even if we quantified it as best we could, that humanism would come out ahead of religion, if not for all-time, definitely in the past 2-300 years.
I'm not a humanist either.

I think already stated (multiple times, but lets do it once again here), I'm an isolationist when it comes to foreign policy.

headsnap
10-17-2004, 04:10 PM
So I'm guessing you are against the 2nd ammendment?not at all what I am saying. If you are gonig to talk about religions, you should not forget about the religion of Science.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:10 PM
You seem to get pissed off easily. You also seem to be a flip-flop type just like Kerry.

So you voting for Badnarik?
ROFL

You are such a media tool it is pathetic!!!

Let me guess, you don't care about any of the issues do you. The only thing you ever post are attacks against Kerry, his supportes, and anyone who doesn't believe Bush is the second coming.

Go whack off with your dreams of rapture, it truly is sad.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:12 PM
not at all what I am saying. If you are gonig to talk about religions, you should not forget about the religion of Science.
Oh sure.

Let's talk the religion of oil.
Let's talk the religion of greed.
Let's talk the religion of football.
Let's talk the religion of sex.
Let's talk the religion of hair club for men.
Let's talk the religion of anti-religion.

Your post was pointless, had no meaning, had no substance, and was treated as such.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:15 PM
Oh wait, I forgot that there was something about the separation of church and state.

Guess we need a constitutional amendment to change that.

Bearcat2005
10-17-2004, 04:15 PM
Such a sad event, it really shows the character of our god fearing president. I see such horrible events that has happened and he has calmed the troubled waters, how the media is on him like no other president and he remains calm, cool, and collective.
I was watching a documentary on Bush and Kerry and in 1998 top republicans were wanting to ask bush if he was intrested in a possible presidential run, he told them that he really felt his country was going to need him in a few years, he was right. This is not to bash John Kerry, just to share my opinion of GWB.

headsnap
10-17-2004, 04:19 PM
Oh sure.

Let's talk the religion of oil.
Let's talk the religion of greed.
Let's talk the religion of football.
Let's talk the religion of sex.
Let's talk the religion of hair club for men.
Let's talk the religion of anti-religion.

Your post was pointless, had no meaning, had no substance, and was treated as such.
:spock:

Oil, greed, football, sex, hair club for men, and anti-religion are all faiths that try to answer the question of 'how did we get here, and why are we here'?



wow, you learn something new every day..

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:22 PM
:spock:

Oil, greed, football, sex, hair club for men, and anti-religion are all faiths that try to answer the question of 'how did we get here, and why are we here'?



wow, you learn something new every day..
Oh yes, and horticulture, a science, does the same thing?

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:24 PM
Oh wait, I forgot, Intelligent Design is the answer!!!!

Cochise
10-17-2004, 04:26 PM
I'm not a humanist either.


Everyone has a standard by which they derive right and wrong. Where does yours come from? Either a person derives their worldview from some sort of theistic edict or they don't.

If they don't, then they evaluate right and wrong based on their own determinations. I see no third option. :hmmm:

headsnap
10-17-2004, 04:26 PM
Oh yes, and horticulture, a science, does the same thing?
horticulture is just a small part of Science.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:30 PM
I derive my beliefs based on the morals and values instilled in me by my parents and the environment I grew up in.

Needing a 3rd party to tell me what is right and wrong is not a strength IMO.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:34 PM
horticulture is just a small part of Science.
Gotcha.

And as soon as crimes against people are commited in the name of horticultgure, and not simply using horticulture as a tool to create deadly bell peppers, I will be the first to denounce it.

;)

Cochise
10-17-2004, 04:39 PM
I derive my beliefs based on the morals and values instilled in me by my parents and the environment I grew up in.


Right, the source of your worldview is tradition, which is established and maintained by humans. Unless it is recursive to religious tradition then that would be humanism, would it not?


Needing a 3rd party to tell me what is right and wrong is not a strength IMO.

See, this confuses me. In the previous quote you told me that you evaluate right and wrong based on what you have heard from others, but here you tell me that it's weak to have a standard other than yourself?

headsnap
10-17-2004, 04:44 PM
Gotcha.

And as soon as crimes against people are commited in the name of horticultgure, and not simply using horticulture as a tool to create deadly bell peppers, I will be the first to denounce it.

;)
WTF are you talking about?


horticutlure is a part of the 'explaining our surroundings' in the religion of Science.

Gotcha, my a$$...:rolleyes:

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:45 PM
Right, the source of your worldview is tradition, which is established and maintained by humans. Unless it is recursive to religious tradition then that would be humanism, would it not?



See, this confuses me. In the previous quote you told me that you evaluate right and wrong based on what you have heard from others, but here you tell me that it's weak to have a standard other than yourself?
Hmmm, you speak of Humanism originally as a foreign policy for world relations. OK, call it what you want.

Yes, I have grown up and no longer need Mommy and Daddy to tell me what's wrong. It is sad that in this day and age people look to religion to tell them what is right and wrong. As a species, we obviously have not yet evolved past the need for Papa.

And it is not just what I have "heard" from others. It is seeing actions, the results of those actions, and experiencing things for myself. Not a complete stranger or a 2000 year old book of poems that has been "edited" over the years by men of the cloth telling me what to do.

KCWolfman
10-17-2004, 04:48 PM
Hmmm, you speak of Humanism originally as a foreign policy for world relations. OK, call it what you want.

Yes, I have grown up and no longer need Mommy and Daddy to tell me what's wrong. It is sad that in this day and age people look to religion to tell them what is right and wrong. As a species, we obviously have not yet evolved past the need for Papa.

And it is not just what I have "heard" from others. It is seeing actions, the results of those actions, and experiencing things for myself. Not a complete stranger or a 2000 year old book of poems that has been "edited" over the years by men of the cloth telling me what to do.
He said while supporting Government programs.....

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:53 PM
WTF are you talking about?


horticutlure is a part of the 'explaining our surroundings' in the religion of Science.

Gotcha, my a$$...:rolleyes:
Oh yes, and every gene splicer working to create riper tomatoes thinks to himself every day that within that tricky manipulation lies the answer to life?

Come on headsnap, you are trying to hard on this. While yes my bash against organized religion may be an overused cliche, it still doesn't mean science is "anti-religious".

I guess the whole thing boils down to who uses either the science or the religion. Since science needs to be proven, I will usually stand by a scientist rather than a preacher when religions are based on the interpretations of man and blind faith.

Do I have blind faith in scientific "theories"? No, because I have experienced them. Am I willing to go to war over the theory of relativity? Of course not.

KCWolfman
10-17-2004, 04:54 PM
I derive my beliefs based on the morals and values instilled in me by my parents and the environment I grew up in.

Needing a 3rd party to tell me what is right and wrong is not a strength IMO.
He said from his land of government and laws

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:54 PM
He said while supporting Government programs.....
Of which government programs do you speak?

KCWolfman
10-17-2004, 04:55 PM
Do I have blind faith in scientific "theories"? No, because I have experienced them.

You've seen atoms and personally watched light rays at the speed of light?

KCWolfman
10-17-2004, 04:56 PM
Of which government programs do you speak?
Does it matter? Any government program, be it loan, charity, or even an EIC is a form of "poppa" helping, isn't it?

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:56 PM
He said from his land of government and laws
ROFL

Really reaching aren't you!

Have I not told you of my plans of buying an island and becoming my own nation of unlurking?!

That's like telling a pro-lifer he's a hypocrite for living in a nation with pro-choice legislation.

:D

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:58 PM
You've seen atoms and personally watched light rays at the speed of light?
HAHA

No, but I'm also not going to invade South America on a crusade to bring them the word of technology!

:)

unlurking
10-17-2004, 04:59 PM
I do not get government assistance, and do not believe in it.

Hell, I PAY FOR THESE PROGRAMS against my will with my taxes.

Edit:
I do pay for separate charities, but that is out of my own personal belief system, not because Jesus told me too.

KCWolfman
10-17-2004, 05:02 PM
HAHA

No, but I'm also not going to invade South America on a crusade to bring them the word of technology!

:)
So, you do have "faith" in some tenants of science, eh?

KCWolfman
10-17-2004, 05:03 PM
I do not get government assistance, and do not believe in it.

Hell, I PAY FOR THESE PROGRAMS against my will with my taxes.

Edit:
I do pay for separate charities, but that is out of my own personal belief system, not because Jesus told me too.
So are you stating that Welfare, food stamps, and college loans from the government should be abolished?

unlurking
10-17-2004, 05:07 PM
So, you do have "faith" in some tenants of science, eh?
Oh sure. I have faith that my car will (hopefully) get me to work every day, but I'm not out there basing my life decisions on a crappy 2.5 litre engine either.

When I make decisions in life in regards to technology, it effects the "how" I go about my life, not the "why". I think this is the biggest point that people aren't seeing or maybe I'm not articulating well enough.

Science doesn't tell my "why" to do something, it gives me options on "how" I do something.

KCWolfman
10-17-2004, 05:08 PM
Oh sure. I have faith that my car will (hopefully) get me to work every day, but I'm not out there basing my life decisions on a crappy 2.5 litre engine either.

When I make decisions in life in regards to technology, it effects the "how" I go about my life, not the "why". I think this is the biggest point that people aren't seeing or maybe I'm not articulating well enough.

Science doesn't tell my "why" to do something, it gives me options on "how" I do something.
That's exactly how religion works for me as well.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 05:09 PM
So are you stating that Welfare, food stamps, and college loans from the government should be abolished?
YES

Give everyone their 35% back and they won't need these hand-outs. If they do, there are civil charities that can be used to assist them.

Can you believe how EASY it would be to pay your children's tuition if you weren't already paying someone else's?

KCWolfman
10-17-2004, 05:12 PM
YES

Give everyone their 35% back and they won't need these hand-outs. If they do, there are civil charities that can be used to assist them.

Can you believe how EASY it would be to pay your children's tuition if you weren't already paying someone else's?
What 35%?

Again, you advocate not supporting families who are not working and not collecting unemployment benefits? I want to be sure I understand you entirely.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 05:15 PM
That's exactly how religion works for me as well.
OK, cool.

I just don't have a religious faith, and get aggravated when others pass judgement on that fact.

I have used a "higher power" belief system in my life before, and that was because I was a very weak person. I'm still weak, but believe that it was the "faith" that got me through things, not the belief in someone else's God.

I believed in taking things one-day-at-a-time (yes, I am a friend although we have not spoken in many years), and that someone else would see to tomorrow. Well, you know what? It was me that saw about tomorrow.

I guess I am for "personal religion", but against "organized religion". I believe people should find there own things to believe in, not what somebody else interprets for you.

OK, rambling, will stop now.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 05:27 PM
What 35%?

Again, you advocate not supporting families who are not working and not collecting unemployment benefits? I want to be sure I understand you entirely.
Gotcha (as in understood, another misunderstanding I believe)

The 35% I pay in taxes for someone else's unemployment benefits and education grants.

Think about how much money you would have to better your life and the lives of your family and friends if you weren't forced into nameless charities for people that may not deserve it. My view may be tainted from working for 3 years of my life with baby-factories and welfare leeches, but I have seen my money getting thrown away on the lazy and criminal. I know not all of recipients are deadbeats, but I want to take care of my own and the people I care about.

headsnap
10-17-2004, 05:38 PM
Come on headsnap, you are trying to hard on this. While yes my bash against organized religion may be an overused cliche, it still doesn't mean science is "anti-religious".you have it all wrong. I never said that science is anti-religious, I said that Science is a religion.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 05:43 PM
you have it all wrong. I never said that science is anti-religious, I said that Science is a religion.
Gotcha (as in I understand, which I think you mistook earlier)

I guess I don't believe that. As I struggled to articulate my thoughts with KCWolfman, I tried to point out the difference.

IMO religions states "why" you do or don't, where Science can help you decide "how" to do or don't.

headsnap
10-17-2004, 05:46 PM
I just don't have a religious faith, and get aggravated when others pass judgement on that fact.others are not passing judgement on that fact, they are responding to your attacks on them. What I have witnessed on this thread of you is not one of passive tolerance.

headsnap
10-17-2004, 05:48 PM
IMO religions states "why" you do or don't, where Science can help you decide "how" to do or don't.science most definitely states/describes the 'why.'





forget to take your lithium today? ;)

unlurking
10-17-2004, 05:48 PM
Maybe it'a build up of all those "holier than thou's" on this forum?

Edit:



Your inability to grasp the meaning of religion and it's base in America is of no consequence.


Guess you're right. I'm being "belittled" for not having the inteligence to understand something I don't believe in.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 05:53 PM
Science tells me to "turn the other cheek"?

headsnap
10-17-2004, 05:54 PM
Maybe it'a build up of all those "holier than thou's" on this forum?

Edit:




Guess you're right. I'm being "belittled" for not having the inteligence to understand something I don't believe in.time for you to look in the mirror.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 05:56 PM
time for you to look in the mirror.
Just did.

Unfortunately it just showed me what I look like, it didn't give me any inspirational outlook on life. Must be broken, guess I'll have to take it back.

headsnap
10-17-2004, 06:24 PM
Just did.

Unfortunately it just showed me what I look like, it didn't give me any inspirational outlook on life. Must be broken, guess I'll have to take it back.the fact that you are incapable of introspection doesn't surprise me in the least.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 06:30 PM
:shrug:

Cochise
10-17-2004, 06:56 PM
And it is not just what I have "heard" from others. It is seeing actions, the results of those actions, and experiencing things for myself.

Yes, you are completely agreeing with me. Right and wrong is determined as you see fit. You're denying that you are a humanist, while at the same time affirming the pillar of it. If that's what you are that's your thing - I was just pointing out that you were embracing it.

That's also why I was tying in the mass murder hall of fame. Those people also determined right and wrong as they saw fit. They evaluated everything for themselves, did what they thought was best for them. It's the same system used by rapists, killers, bank robbers, etc. They evaluate right and wrong on an arbitrary basis, ruled by what is good for them at the moment.

Imagine a world where the length of a foot or an inch was arbitrary. Buildings would collapse, bridges would crumble. Without measurement, there would be no way to construct anything.

Without precision and consistency, order breaks down into chaos. an unchanging standard results in order, a hand-to-mouth interpretation results in chaos. The deaths of 20 million Russians, 6 million jews, and countless others around the world in recent history were not sealed by the muzzle of a rifle or the locked door of a gas chambler, but rather by a pen and paper, writing volumes that amount to "Man is the measure of all things", on the desks of people like Nietzsche.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 07:02 PM
Crusades
Israel vs ME
China vs Tibet
Inquisition
Witch Hunts

That's not quite a "consistency" or "order" I want to follow.

And the rise of Naziism, in my opinion, was based on the need to "bring order to chaos".

I may be misunderstanding your point, but I just don't see what benefit your argument brings?

(BTW, I'm out for a few to watch Farscape. "Might" check in during commercials."

Cochise
10-17-2004, 07:17 PM
Crusades
Israel vs ME
China vs Tibet
Inquisition
Witch Hunts


The crusades were fought for many reasons, and not just by people trying to spread their religion. Some were simply adventurers, some were in it for profit, some wanted land, merchants wanted expanded trade routes, serfs to get away from serfdom. For leaders it was a matter of political conquest, empire expansion and protection of the Byzantine empire, as well as an attempt to spread religion.

But the thing I think you are missing in that regard, is that when something is perverted, it cannot be held culpable for the results. If I don't perform any maintenance on my truck at all, eventually it will break down. It's not because the truck was poorly manufactured, it's because I did not use it properly.

So, I submit that in the example of the crusades, you have a complex situation that religion only contributed to, and was not the impetus for. Additionally, it is not the religion itself at fault but rather the actions of zealots who used it as the excuse of the moment for their actions.

I'm not intimately familiar with the situation between China and Tibet, but is that not the doing of humanistic China?

You do give examples of people dying in the name of some religion. However I think that the examples I listed are still far ahead of yours, at least in recent history, which was the bone of contention.

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 07:41 PM
ROFL

You are such a media tool it is pathetic!!!

Let me guess, you don't care about any of the issues do you. The only thing you ever post are attacks against Kerry, his supportes, and anyone who doesn't believe Bush is the second coming.

Go whack off with your dreams of rapture, it truly is sad.

I think that you could find more truth to what I've said than most.

The facts of the issues are manufactured using numbers that represent a very small portion of the population.

Are you talking about the unemployed? I am unemployed.
Are you talking about those without health insurance? I do not have health insurance.
Are you talking about leadership? Bush has shown leadership when this country needed it most. Clinton spent 8 years showing us no leadership.
Kerry spent 4 months in Vietnam as a junior officer, you want to lean on him for leadership?

You need to stop being personal and move towards reality. Reality number one is that you are not in charge. Reality number two is that you don't have hope for life after this one as you do not believe in God. Unfortunately for you if you don't believe you don't go anywhere worthwhile.

Speaking of whacking off, you seem to be doing that OK by yourself.

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 07:43 PM
Oh wait, I forgot that there was something about the separation of church and state.

Guess we need a constitutional amendment to change that.

The seperation of church and state was an edict that the government could not tell you that you had to be a catholic (or whatever religion was predominant) as they were in England.

The law that you are talking about was an amendment to the original intent of the constitution. You might want to read the original before you go off half cocked.

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 07:52 PM
.....or a 2000 year old book of poems that has been "edited" over the years by men of the cloth telling me what to do.

You need to stop before you make a fool of yourself. There has been a study of what originals are available and they seem to be almost word for word. What you are missing is that the consistancy of the Bible over the years is one of the things that are makes believers know that it is a true record as well as a guide for your life. Maybe some day you will have an experience that will catch your attention, until then you might be willing to consider that you are not the sole cache of what is right and wrong in the world.

BTW, you talked of growing up with your parents giving you instruction, your "I did it my way" lecture doesn't wash. You did not find things on your own, your attitude was moulded by your parents and you have never attempted to find out if they were right or wrong.

Good luck, you may be needing it.

Something else you may want to consider. If I, as a believer in God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Ghost, am wrong, I lose nothing. If you are wrong you lose everything.

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 07:54 PM
I do not get government assistance, and do not believe in it.

Hell, I PAY FOR THESE PROGRAMS against my will with my taxes.

Edit:
I do pay for separate charities, but that is out of my own personal belief system, not because Jesus told me too.

Name the charities.

|Zach|
10-17-2004, 07:58 PM
You need to stop before you make a fool of yourself. There has been a study of what originals are available and they seem to be almost word for word.

After studying religion in college I came away with anything but that impression. Considering the text went from Hebrew...to the Latin Vulgate...and THEN to English...

Tell me people holding the pens did that good of job. Its a tough thing to do even if you discount the idea of human bias.

Ever heard a poem that has been translated in English from another language? Its rough...

Cochise
10-17-2004, 08:06 PM
The seperation of church and state was an edict that the government could not tell you that you had to be a catholic (or whatever religion was predominant) as they were in England.

The law that you are talking about was an amendment to the original intent of the constitution. You might want to read the original before you go off half cocked.

If I remember correctly, the term was coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter he wrote to a Baptist preacher, but it meant in context that the church should be protected from the state, and not that they couldn't ever touch or that the government couldn't operate on religious principles.

Cochise
10-17-2004, 08:10 PM
You need to stop before you make a fool of yourself. There has been a study of what originals are available and they seem to be almost word for word.


If there is some question as to the accuracy of the text, I would like to see an example presented where a change has crept in and it changes the meaning of the passage. Things like grammar and spelling don't count.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 08:10 PM
Actually, the "bone of contention", and I may not not have stated it well enough, was the slaughter that occured in the "name" of religion.

Your dissection of the crusades is a perfect example. How many of the men that fought those battles (not the ones who sent them to battle) were told it was a religous action? How many of the peoples attacked were told it was for religous reasons?

The atrocities "carried out" in the name of religion is the problem I was referring too.

Cochise
10-17-2004, 08:14 PM
Actually, the "bone of contention", and I may not not have stated it well enough, was the slaughter that occured in the "name" of religion.

Your dissection of the crusades is a perfect example. How many of the men that fought those battles (not the ones who sent them to battle) were told it was a religous action? How many of the peoples attacked were told it was for religous reasons?

The atrocities "carried out" in the name of religion is the problem I was referring too.

I never denied that atrocities in the name of religion occurred. Like I said, you cannot blame the faith when people don't follow it's edicts.

The bone of contention was your off-the-cuff statement that more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other cause. Lacking any meaninful substantiation after many posts I assume you were just repeating a cliche.

I held that the matter was far from settled, and gave examples of tens of millions killed just in the past 100 years by the complete opposite. All I wanted was to make the point that just as many, if not more have been killed by people who thought faith was a threat and sought to eliminate it.

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 08:14 PM
Actually, the "bone of contention", and I may not not have stated it well enough, was the slaughter that occured in the "name" of religion.

Your dissection of the crusades is a perfect example. How many of the men that fought those battles (not the ones who sent them to battle) were told it was a religous action? How many of the peoples attacked were told it was for religous reasons?

The atrocities "carried out" in the name of religion is the problem I was referring too.

So what you are saying is that atrocities carried out in the name of ethnic cleansing is OK?

unlurking
10-17-2004, 08:25 PM
I think that you could find more truth to what I've said than most.

The facts of the issues are manufactured using numbers that represent a very small portion of the population.

Are you talking about the unemployed? I am unemployed.
Are you talking about those without health insurance? I do not have health insurance.
Are you talking about leadership? Bush has shown leadership when this country needed it most. Clinton spent 8 years showing us no leadership.
Kerry spent 4 months in Vietnam as a junior officer, you want to lean on him for leadership?

You need to stop being personal and move towards reality. Reality number one is that you are not in charge. Reality number two is that you don't have hope for life after this one as you do not believe in God. Unfortunately for you if you don't believe you don't go anywhere worthwhile.

Speaking of whacking off, you seem to be doing that OK by yourself.

ROFL!

Brought to me by the latter day saints?

Again, did I say I would lean on Kerry?!?!
Oh, that's right, I'm talking to a child that cannot remember anything about anyone else except that if they are not pro-Bush/pro-God they are inferior.

(Back at next commercial)

unlurking
10-17-2004, 08:33 PM
Doh!

Guess you missed the sarcasm regarding the religious right's willingness to amend the constitution based on religous ideals.

Glad you aren't a politician!

unlurking
10-17-2004, 08:38 PM
Holy Cow!!

We have FUD slinging as though you were on the campaign trail!!!

If you get to the afterlife and find WMD, please call back and let everyone know!!!

It's truly sad that you think I am "inexperienced" and haven't questioned life. You seem to attack anyone who questions you, religion, or Bush!

Oh wait, I guess you better go find all the native Americans and tell them they are going to hell too for believing in false idols. Too bad all those people around the time of Jesus had to go to hell because they believed in false gods as well. Where is your loathing for them?

unlurking
10-17-2004, 08:40 PM
Gateway Battered Women's Shelter
Planned Parenthood
Make-A-Wish

Would you like receipts?

What about you?
Or is your church tithing sufficient?

(Back after commercial)

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 08:42 PM
Brought to me by the latter day saints?

Again, did I say I would lean on Kerry?!?!
Oh, that's right, I'm talking to a child that cannot remember anything about anyone else except that if they are not pro-Bush/pro-God they are inferior.

(Back at next commercial)

Speaking of being a tool.

I don't care to really remember anything about you. You see, you are a loser. Too bad that you can't work that out.

Just in case you don't know, there is a giant difference in being religious and being a Christian, but telling you something like that is like talking to a rock. Hello rock!

It is a shame that you attack the messenger of what is written in response to your loose attempts to make sense.

Hang it up loser.

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 08:47 PM
Gateway Battered Women's Shelter
Planned Parenthood
Make-A-Wish

Would you like receipts?

What about you?
Or is your church tithing sufficient?

(Back after commercial)

I wasn't the one claiming to be giving to charities, but for your sake, yes I tithe. I also give extra to Missionaries and Evangilists. I also donate to the Red Cross. I have donated to the 37 Forever Foundation. I have donated to Make-a-Wish. I have donated to the United Way. I have donated to the Jerry Lewis Telethon. There is more, but the point is made. I donate to charities because God has Blessed me with income in excess of what my family and I need to exist.

Why would I need your recepts? I don't work for the IRS.

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 08:50 PM
Holy Cow!!

We have FUD slinging as though you were on the campaign trail!!!

If you get to the afterlife and find WMD, please call back and let everyone know!!!

It's truly sad that you think I am "inexperienced" and haven't questioned life. You seem to attack anyone who questions you, religion, or Bush!

Oh wait, I guess you better go find all the native Americans and tell them they are going to hell too for believing in false idols. Too bad all those people around the time of Jesus had to go to hell because they believed in false gods as well. Where is your loathing for them?

Why would I care what happened on earth if I succeed and make it to heaven? I will just be happy that I'm there. As for calling back, there is no connection between heaven and hell so you are on your own.

I attacked you because you are a total ass. I didn't attack you because you don't believe, I commented because you brought it out. I don't care if you like Bush or not. It's just a shame that you can't see through the lies that Kerry is spewing.

stevieray
10-17-2004, 08:51 PM
Maybe it'a build up of all those "holier than thou's" on this forum?

Edit:




Guess you're right. I'm being "belittled" for not having the inteligence to understand something I don't believe in.


Did you come to this thread with no other intention except to belittle people who believe in God?? Or just God?

BroWhippendiddle
10-17-2004, 08:59 PM
Did you come to this thread with no other intention except to belittle people who believe in God?? Or just God?
He is just going for the gold and attacking everyone that believes as well as supports the anti-christ (in his opinion) Bush.

I may not be the best Christian in the world, but I know that I have hope. It seems like unlurking may not even have that. If I am correct, it is truely ashame, but correctable. To go to your grave without hearing the good news is one thing, to refuse it is another story in it's entirety.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 09:02 PM
I never denied that atrocities in the name of religion occurred. Like I said, you cannot blame the faith when people don't follow it's edicts.

The bone of contention was your off-the-cuff statement that more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other cause. Lacking any meaninful substantiation after many posts I assume you were just repeating a cliche.

I held that the matter was far from settled, and gave examples of tens of millions killed just in the past 100 years by the complete opposite. All I wanted was to make the point that just as many, if not more have been killed by people who thought faith was a threat and sought to eliminate it.
Sure.

Whatever makes you feel better about spinning one comment I made that had very little to do with actual topic.

*HINT*

I said it was a cliche earlier.

*HINT*

"It's OK honey, cancer is no longer the number one killer so you don't have to worry about it."

Are you about to bash me for being a Kerry supporter too? If I tell you I'm not, it probably won't matter will it?

Oh wait, that was back to the original topic. Nevermind.

Guess that'll teach me to commend Bush in a thread on CP.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 09:03 PM
So what you are saying is that atrocities carried out in the name of ethnic cleansing is OK?
Boy, there is that spin machine at work again!!!!

Find my post where I said anything of the kind.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 09:06 PM
I wasn't the one claiming to be giving to charities, but for your sake, yes I tithe. I also give extra to Missionaries and Evangilists. I also donate to the Red Cross. I have donated to the 37 Forever Foundation. I have donated to Make-a-Wish. I have donated to the United Way. I have donated to the Jerry Lewis Telethon. There is more, but the point is made. I donate to charities because God has Blessed me with income in excess of what my family and I need to exist.

Why would I need your recepts? I don't work for the IRS.
I don't know

Why did you ask?

unlurking
10-17-2004, 09:08 PM
Speaking of being a tool.

I don't care to really remember anything about you. You see, you are a loser. Too bad that you can't work that out.

Just in case you don't know, there is a giant difference in being religious and being a Christian, but telling you something like that is like talking to a rock. Hello rock!

It is a shame that you attack the messenger of what is written in response to your loose attempts to make sense.

Hang it up loser.
ROFL!!!

You were the one that said I don't have the ability to understand.

I think you were the one starting the attack. And the next time I see you say something poitive about someone on this board who is not Pro-Bush (it'll be the first time), I'll even posrep ya!

lol

unlurking
10-17-2004, 09:10 PM
Stevie, I have avoided talking to you since our little "tiff" awhile back, but I have read your posts in the DC Forum and have had to bite my tongue.

As soon as you contribute more than a one-line attack in this forum I'll even posrep you. Until then, I'm back to "manually" ignoring you. (This way I can hold my breath for a meaningful contribution)

unlurking
10-17-2004, 09:13 PM
He is just going for the gold and attacking everyone that believes as well as supports the anti-christ (in his opinion) Bush.

I may not be the best Christian in the world, but I know that I have hope. It seems like unlurking may not even have that. If I am correct, it is truely ashame, but correctable. To go to your grave without hearing the good news is one thing, to refuse it is another story in it's entirety.
Yes, let's all pity poor unlurking and his doomed fate.

I don't give a damn about your faith or anyone elses. It doesn't belong in politics no matter what you may believe. Just like you would not like to be subjected to Islamic laws, I don't want to be subjected to your Christian morality.

headsnap
10-17-2004, 09:22 PM
I don't give a damn about your faith or anyone elses.

I call bullshit on that point.



and we have this thread as proof!

stevieray
10-17-2004, 09:25 PM
Stevie, I have avoided talking to you since our little "tiff" awhile back, but I have read your posts in the DC Forum and have had to bite my tongue.

As soon as you contribute more than a one-line attack in this forum I'll even posrep you. Until then, I'm back to "manually" ignoring you. (This way I can hold my breath for a meaningful contribution)

It's a honest question, I won't claim what you want to turn it in to. Am I supposed to applaud you because you've refrained? don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

I think you just don't want to face the fact that you posted on this thread for no other reason than to discredit God, Christians and Bush (and another election pissing contest)

If you want to take a thread about a nice gesture and turn it into something maniacle, (like my question) that isn't my fault.

unlurking
10-17-2004, 09:37 PM
It's a honest question, I won't claim what you want to turn it in to. Am I supposed to applaud you because you've refrained? don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

I think you just don't want to face the fact that you posted on this thread for no other reason than to discredit God, Christians and Bush (and another election pissing contest)

If you want to take a thread about a nice gesture and turn it into something maniacle, (like my question) that isn't my fault.

Hmm, I'll bring up my first 2 posts on this thread, just so you don't have to go back and read them.

Nice.

I wish political battles were waged with this type of action. I know I'd like to see more of the "human" side of our nations politicians.

The response I get is a Kerry bash. Do you see anything in my statement that says I am pro-Kerry? Is there anything in there that says I want to bash Bush?

My next post:

As an agnostic and a member of the middle class, I don't believe either candidate has ANY IDEA what life is like for me or the average American.

I'm glad to see that Bush took an interest in the church shooting, and that impresses me, but this does nothing to convince me is anything more than a member of the religious right. I'm sure he had deep feelings regarding this incident, he still didn't reform SS like he said he would. If (and I'm guessing he will) he gets re-elected, I doubt he'll perform the promised reform in the next four years.

I'm sorry, there has just been TOO MUCH FUD slinging from both sides to change anyone's mind with a fluff piece or two.

Too little, too late.

I respond to the Kerry bashing stating that Bush has done nothing more than show his support for a religous group (and even stated it impressed me), and that the I don't believe this makes up for the issues I believe in, that he said he would address.

I then get this "belittling" in response:

Your inability to grasp the meaning of religion and it's base in America is of no consequence.

Now, I ASK YOU, does it LOOK like I came here to start bashing religion?

OK, you asked an honest question. I believe I answered that with my first posts in the thread. Do you honestly believe I came here to discredit God, Christians, and Bush?

Velvet_Jones
10-17-2004, 10:12 PM
Character can be broken down into three distinct components:

Char: A variable that must be declared in order to be used in a program or cursor.

Act: A flailing of arms and other appendages when being lanced by an excalibur.

Er: The sound that a normal man makes when he gets kicked in the nurts.


I don't understand why normal people are so stuck on this concept of character. It is just a bunch of gibberish to me. I mean, why should I be concerned with a perforated variable that may or may not be wanten to kick me in the nurts?

Velvet

stevieray
10-17-2004, 10:37 PM
Hmm, I'll bring up my first 2 posts on this thread, just so you don't have to go back and read them.



The response I get is a Kerry bash. Do you see anything in my statement that says I am pro-Kerry? Is there anything in there that says I want to bash Bush?

My next post:



I respond to the Kerry bashing stating that Bush has done nothing more than show his support for a religous group (and even stated it impressed me), and that the I don't believe this makes up for the issues I believe in, that he said he would address.

I then get this "belittling" in response:



Now, I ASK YOU, does it LOOK like I came here to start bashing religion?

OK, you asked an honest question. I believe I answered that with my first posts in the thread. Do you honestly believe I came here to discredit God, Christians, and Bush?

not in the first post. Thanks for answering my question.

BroWhippendiddle
10-18-2004, 02:18 AM
Yes, let's all pity poor unlurking and his doomed fate.

I don't give a damn about your faith or anyone elses. It doesn't belong in politics no matter what you may believe. Just like you would not like to be subjected to Islamic laws, I don't want to be subjected to your Christian morality.

There is a difference between Islamic laws and Christian faith. Their God says they have to die for him, my God sent his Son to die for my transgretions, yours too...even if you don't believe.