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tk13
10-28-2004, 01:07 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/football/nfl/kansas_city_chiefs/10032164.htm

Voters not sure Thomas is a first-ballot Hall of Famer

JEFFREY FLANAGAN


As you know, the late Derrick Thomas is on the ballot for induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

But just how likely is it that Thomas, the Chiefs' all-time sack leader with 126 1/2 , will get in on his first try, or even in at all?

Here's a look at what a few Pro Football Hall of Fame voters had to say:

-Jerry Magee, San Diego Union-Tribune: “I certainly don't think he's a slam dunk. And as far as the first time through, I think it's pretty remote. He's a viable candidate but he didn't have a long career, and I don't think he was very consistent.

“Personally, he's not the kind of guy I could support. He had some great games and some great moments, but over the long haul, I just don't see it.”

-Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette: “He made my first cut when we vote on 25 guys out of the 89. I don't know how I'll go when we go to the 13 finalists. I try to keep an open mind about these things so I really don't know which way I'll lean. He's not like Dan Marino, who I know I will vote for (all the way through).

“He was definitely a guy that other defenses had to game-plan for. You had to account for him. Whether that's enough to get him in on the first try, I don't know. He's definitely a candidate down the road, though.”

-Paul Domowitch, Philadelphia Daily News: “He made my cut to 25 but I'm still not sure how I'll vote after that. He was a great talent, and he was great at getting to the quarterback. I don't think it'll hurt him that some people think he was one-dimensional because there are guys in the Hall right now like that.

“But if anything hurts him, it's that his career was cut short by his tragic death. If he doesn't make it now, I still think he's a strong candidate for the future.”

-Ira Miller, San Francisco Chronicle: “He's a guy I'd have to look at, but I'd also have to say he's questionable.”

Voters will whittle their picks to 25 semifinalists, who will be announced next month. Another mail-in vote will reduce the number of finalists to 13. A maximum of six can be selected to the Hall of Fame on Feb. 5.

Aside from Marino and Thomas, also on the ballot are Steve Young, Michael Irvin and coach Dan Reeves. Three other former Chiefs are on the preliminary list, though not for the first time: Curley Culp, Albert Lewis and Nick Lowery.

***

Sports Illustrated's Web site, www.SI.com, had a unique “Offensive Player of the Week” this week: The Chiefs' offensive line, consisting of Willie Roaf, Brian Waters, Casey Wiegmann, Will Shields and John Welbourn.

SI's Peter King wrote: “Simply an amazing, tour de force performance by a group that, when right, is the best in the game.”

***

Former Metro Sports reporter Danyelle Sargent made her debut Monday on ESPNews at ESPN's headquarters in Bristol, Conn..

“She did very well,” reporterd Carol Rothwell, Time Warner vice president of public affairs. “We were all very proud of her.”

ESPNews can be seen on Metro Sports when it isn't carrying local programming, and full time on Channel 204 on Time Warner systems.

Nightfyre
10-28-2004, 01:21 AM
The **** he wasnt consistent. Look at his numbers year to year. That and he never missed a probowl.

Demonpenz
10-28-2004, 01:26 AM
i think they mean against the run

Nightfyre
10-28-2004, 01:27 AM
i think they mean against the run
Am I not mistaken or didnt we have the #1 run defense in there for a few years?

tk13
10-28-2004, 01:34 AM
It's almost like they never watched him play or know anything about him. I mean I know there are arguments that can be made against electing DT this year with this particular HOF class... but these people saying his career wasn't long enough? What? He played for 11 years... Mike Singletary played 12 years, Lawrence Taylor played for 13 years, Willie Lanier "only" played for 11 years. I'm sure you could find plenty of HOF'ers with equal or lesser career lengths. I'm not seeing it.

Demonpenz
10-28-2004, 01:39 AM
watch the seven sack game, or Montana's first game against the 49ers, he brought so much flat out speed to that end. He got off the ball so fast it was crazy, great motor and great heart. These people just need to sit down and watch how much of a playmaker he was at the end/lb spot, he could change a game like a ricky henderson

Nightfyre
10-28-2004, 01:41 AM
It's just that none of the analysts are chiefs fans :p

MavKC
10-28-2004, 02:48 AM
IF Derrick Thomas had any weakness that you could point to, it was his pass coverage skills. After that he didn't have that many weakness to choose from. He may not be a "run" stuffer, but it's not as if he couldn't tackle running backs.

Buch of crap about having a "shorten career", and his consistancy. What do they mean by consistancy? That he didn't get a multi-sack game everytime he played? Show me someone who does? Not to metion it's hard to get sacks in some games when the opponent is putting two, sometimes three people in charge of stopping him. And look at how many times he was held, if not mugged in the game and the zebras didn't call it.

If there was anything about DT, it was consistancy. Everytime he stepped out on the field, he forced the offensive, and coaches to focus on stopping him. He tooks teams outta of their normal game plans, because it was suicide to ignore DT. Every mistake the O-line made, he was there to take advantage of it.

I mean for christ sake, go ask John Elway who he probably had the most respect for. DT sacked him more than any other player in his long career. You can't ignore that.

Ray Lewis is a better all-around linebacker, than DT was. But DT was "silent death" coming for the QB. Seriously I would fear facing DT more that Ray Lewis. Ray Lewis can be blocked one-on-one. Try that with Derrick Thomas and the QB's jersy color is going to change to grass and mud. His consistancy was the fear that teams had for him. You either respected Derrick Thomas, or you were dominated.

And what really sucks, is that Ray Lewis is most likely going to the HOF at one point. If he gets in, it should be no-brainer that DT would too.

These sportswriters don't know the meaning of a "game changing" player. With Derrick Thomas on the defensive unit, he made that whole team better with him on it, than off it. He didn't need to get 1 sack, or even a pressure for him to have an impact. Just ask anyone on the Chiefs defensive unit, from 1989 to 2000.


With that said, do I think that DT is first time HOF material? I don't expect him to make in on the first try, or maybe even the second try. But he should eventually get in. It's ironic that he played for a team that had linebackers like Bobby Bell and Willie Lanier on it at one time. He had those guys to measure up too, besides just the linebackers from the rest of the league. Bell and Lanier set the standard on how to play there respective LB position, and Bobby Bell would be the player DT had to measure up against. I'm sorry if given a choice between the two linbackers, Bobby Bell was clearly the better one. Then again, give me the choice of Bobby Bell or anyone else, I would still pick Bell. And therein lies DT's problem. There were better players than him, and players with better "stats". Not to metion most of those players in the HOF have Super Bowl rings, and that counts for a lot when deciding who goes in.

But I would say he should be considered for the HOF, if only because he was so dangerous going after a QB. Them pencil-neck geeks were open season for DT. And he savored the hunt like no other linebacker during that period.

I think he should go in because of the time period he played in, and what he meant to this team. He was more than a jersey number, he WAS the team's heart and soul.


But for the BS out that article, they got all their points wrong when judging Derrick Thomas. That "consistancy" statement pisses me off to no end.


*Quietly grumbles to himself*

Nightfyre
10-28-2004, 02:56 AM
Good post. Rep.

Logical
10-28-2004, 05:36 AM
IF Derrick Thomas had any weakness that you could point to, it was his pass coverage skills. After that he didn't have that many weakness to choose from. He may not be a "run" stuffer, but it's not as if he couldn't tackle running backs.

Buch of crap about having a "shorten career", and his consistancy. What do they mean by consistancy? That he didn't get a multi-sack game everytime he played? Show me someone who does? Not to metion it's hard to get sacks in some games when the opponent is putting two, sometimes three people in charge of stopping him. And look at how many times he was held, if not mugged in the game and the zebras didn't call it.

If there was anything about DT, it was consistancy. Everytime he stepped out on the field, he forced the offensive, and coaches to focus on stopping him. He tooks teams outta of their normal game plans, because it was suicide to ignore DT. Every mistake the O-line made, he was there to take advantage of it.

I mean for christ sake, go ask John Elway who he probably had the most respect for. DT sacked him more than any other player in his long career. You can't ignore that.

Ray Lewis is a better all-around linebacker, than DT was. But DT was "silent death" coming for the QB. Seriously I would fear facing DT more that Ray Lewis. Ray Lewis can be blocked one-on-one. Try that with Derrick Thomas and the QB's jersy color is going to change to grass and mud. His consistancy was the fear that teams had for him. You either respected Derrick Thomas, or you were dominated.

And what really sucks, is that Ray Lewis is most likely going to the HOF at one point. If he gets in, it should be no-brainer that DT would too.

These sportswriters don't know the meaning of a "game changing" player. With Derrick Thomas on the defensive unit, he made that whole team better with him on it, than off it. He didn't need to get 1 sack, or even a pressure for him to have an impact. Just ask anyone on the Chiefs defensive unit, from 1989 to 2000.


With that said, do I think that DT is first time HOF material? I don't expect him to make in on the first try, or maybe even the second try. But he should eventually get in. It's ironic that he played for a team that had linebackers like Bobby Bell and Willie Lanier on it at one time. He had those guys to measure up too, besides just the linebackers from the rest of the league. Bell and Lanier set the standard on how to play there respective LB position, and Bobby Bell would be the player DT had to measure up against. I'm sorry if given a choice between the two linbackers, Bobby Bell was clearly the better one. Then again, give me the choice of Bobby Bell or anyone else, I would still pick Bell. And therein lies DT's problem. There were better players than him, and players with better "stats". Not to metion most of those players in the HOF have Super Bowl rings, and that counts for a lot when deciding who goes in.

But I would say he should be considered for the HOF, if only because he was so dangerous going after a QB. Them pencil-neck geeks were open season for DT. And he savored the hunt like no other linebacker during that period.

I think he should go in because of the time period he played in, and what he meant to this team. He was more than a jersey number, he WAS the team's heart and soul.


But for the BS out that article, they got all their points wrong when judging Derrick Thomas. That "consistancy" statement pisses me off to no end.


*Quietly grumbles to himself* Well said and I agree with almost everything especially the bolded paragraph.:clap:

Gaz
10-28-2004, 05:42 AM
DT was an exceptional pass rusher, but not a great all-around LB.

He will get in, but not on the 1st ballot.

xoxo~
Gaz
Expects to see DT enshrined one day.

PastorMikH
10-28-2004, 06:59 AM
I guess being the heart and soul of one of the best Ds in football for a decade just isn't enough but Dan Reeves tanking miserably in 4 SBs is. Sad, truly sad.



As for the pass coverage weakness, why do you want one of the best pass rushers in the NFL, and definately one of the better ones all time, dropping into pass coverage when he should be going after the QB?

Mark M
10-28-2004, 07:18 AM
It's almost like they never watched him play or know anything about him. I mean I know there are arguments that can be made against electing DT this year with this particular HOF class... but these people saying his career wasn't long enough? What? He played for 11 years... Mike Singletary played 12 years, Lawrence Taylor played for 13 years, Willie Lanier "only" played for 11 years. I'm sure you could find plenty of HOF'ers with equal or lesser career lengths. I'm not seeing it.

Gale Sayers only played for, what, 6 years?

The people quoted in this article are giving all of the wrong reasons for not choosing him. If anything, the only reason he wouldn't get in is because of the impressive list of candidates--Marino, Young, et al--and maybe the fact that, as good as DT was, his team never sniffed a Super Bowl.

IMHO, the guy will get in, but not until next time.

Lowery should only get in the hall as a visitor. Albert Lewis ... ? Not so sure. Otis Taylor should get in first IMHO ... he was perhaps one of the greatest route runners in NFL history. He put up pretty damn good numbers during an era where the pass was an afterthought and when DBs could molest receivers all day long without a penalty.

MM
~~:arrow:

KCTitus
10-28-2004, 07:18 AM
I wont be suprised to see DT not make it on the first or even second or third ballot, but if that colorblind retart Michael Irvin makes it before DT, I'll be very upset.

Mark M
10-28-2004, 07:19 AM
I wont be suprised to see DT not make it on the first or even second or third ballot, but if that colorblind retart Michael Irvin makes it before DT, I'll be very upset.
Perpare to be upset. The guy's got 3 Super Bowl rings and was part of the Dallas dynasty of the early 90's.

Not saying he deserves it before DT, just saying that it'll probably happen for those reasons, as well as the fact he played in Dallas. Hell, if DT played almost anywhere but KC he'd be a shoe-in.

MM
~~:arrow:

KCTitus
10-28-2004, 07:39 AM
Perpare to be upset. The guy's got 3 Super Bowl rings and was part of the Dallas dynasty of the early 90's...

I figure he's going to get in, I just hate to think of that punk in the Hall with the likes Lanier and Dawson.

Tuckdaddy
10-28-2004, 09:47 AM
He will get in but apparently not this year. The HOF has a bunch a players there that don't deserve it. Howie long and Lynn Wsan were popularity votes. Look at thier stats. They suck. I bet Morton has better stats than Lynn, he just didn't get to play with Terry and the steel curtain.

Rain Man
10-28-2004, 09:51 AM
I agree with tk13. What's the bogus argument about a short career? He played more than a decade, and went to the pro bowl almost every year. I'm betting that most of the guys in the HoF right now couldn't say that.

shaneo69
10-28-2004, 09:57 AM
These HOF selectors really piss me off. Derrick was every bit of a game changer as Deion Sanders, and you know Deion will be first ballot.

As one of KC's HOF committee members, Gretz better do a damn good job of reinforcing what a great player DT was when he gets in front of the rest of the committee.

2bikemike
10-28-2004, 10:08 AM
I will say that when DT made the list I did not think he would go in the first time. I believe he will make it but it will take a couple of trys. You can be as sure of that as you were that he was going to eventually get the QB.

Rain Man
10-28-2004, 11:43 AM
My question is, who on that list is more deserving? Who was more dominant as a player?

You have to give credit to Marino and Young, but DT is #3, in my opinion. There's a reason why he was all-pro for a full decade.

tk13
10-28-2004, 02:23 PM
My question is, who on that list is more deserving? Who was more dominant as a player?

You have to give credit to Marino and Young, but DT is #3, in my opinion. There's a reason why he was all-pro for a full decade.
I think all of us who watched him play think that. I don't know, these people made it sound like he was just some linebacker who happpened to occasionally get some pressure and a sack or two....

Maybe one of the ultimate compliments should be that, when Gunther took the DC job again.... the only smack that started flying from all the Bronco fans and Raider fans was "Well, he doesn't have Derrick Thomas to make that defense great anymore". Ask other AFC West coaches, players and fans if they feared him...

dtebbe
10-28-2004, 02:31 PM
Look at how many times DT sacked the QB, forced a fumble, and then recovered the football. And look at how many times his forced fumbles turned in to defensive scores. There was a reason the Chiefs offense sucked in the early 90's, the defense scored every game, and DT was right in the thick of things every time. There has never been a LB who rushed the QB better, period. What did Neil Smith do when he wasn't playing opposite DT, what did Dan Salaemoua do when he left... NOTHING. That's because they always had single blocking when DT was on the field drawing doubles... and still running by them.

DT

KingPriest2
10-28-2004, 02:34 PM
DT Career Stats


DERRICK THOMAS' REGULAR SEASON DEFENSIVE STATS
YEAR GP-GS SCK YDS QB PRESS. FF-FR SOLO TKL ASST. TOT. TKL PD INT/YDS
1989 16-16 10 95.5 55 3-1 56 19 75 4 0/0
1990 15-15 20 150.0 35 6-2 47 16 63 5 0/0
1991 16-15 13.5 112.0 42 4-4 60 19 79 2 0/0
1992 16-16 14.5 113.0 27 8-3 54 13 67 2 0/0
1993 16-16 8.0 50.0 47 4-1 32 11 43 0 0/0
1994 16-15 11.0 71.0 45 6-3 67 19 86 5 0/0
1995 15-15 8.0 57.5 54 2-1 59 12 71 4 0/0
1996 16-15 13.0 99.0 47 3-1 49 9 58 4 0/0
1997 12-10 9.5 56.5 34 3-0 34 21 55 2 0/0
1998 15-10 12.0 79.0 26 3-2 44 12 56 1 0/0
1999 16-16 7.0 65.0 32 3-1 56 21 77 5 1/20
TOTALS 169-158 126.5 948.5 444 45-19 558 172 730 35 1/20

DERRICK THOMAS' POSTSEASON DEFENSIVE STATS
YEAR GP-GS SCK YDS QB PRESS. FF-FR SOLO TKL ASST. TOT. TKL PD INT/YDS
1990 1-1 0 0 -- 0-0 3 0 3 0 0/0
1991 2-2 2 13.0 -- 1-0 7 0 7 0 0/0
1992 1-1 1.5 15.0 -- 0-0 3 0 3 0 0/0
1993 3-3 3 19.0 -- 2-0 10 0 10 1 0/0
1994 1-1 1 8.0 -- 0-0 5 1 6 0 0/0
1995 1-1 0 0 4 0-0 7 0 7 1 0/0
1997 1-1 0 0 -- 0-0 1 0 1 0 0/0
TOTALS 10-10 7.5 55.0 4 3-0 36 1 37 2 0/0


DERRICK THOMAS: SACKS BY PASSER
QUARTERBACK TIMES SACKED

John Elway 17
Dave Krieg 15
Jeff George 11
Jim Kelly 6
Jay Schroeder 5½
Stan Humphries 4½
Rick Mirer 4½
Steve Young 4
Brett Favre 4½
Randall Cunningham 3
Vince Evans 3
Warren Moon 3
Todd Philcox 3
Jack Trudeau 3
John Friesz 2½
Bobby Hebert 2½
Troy Aikman 2
Drew Bledsoe 2
Dave Brown 2
Chris Chandler 2
Billy Joe Hobert 2
Jeff Hostetler 2
Mike Tomczak 2
Bernie Kosar 1½
Wade Wilson 1½
Tony Banks 1
Bubby Brister 1
Boomer Esiason 1
Jim Everett 1
Gus Frerotte 1
Bob Gagliano 1
Brian Griese 1
Jim Harbaugh 1
Jeff Kemp 1
Ryan Leaf 1
Don Majkowski 1
Peyton Manning 1
Frank Reich 1
Mark Rypien 1
Kelly Stouffer 1
Vinny Testaverde 1
Billy Joe Tolliver 1
Mark Brunell ½
Todd Marinovich ½
Mike Pagel ½


DERRICK THOMAS: SACKS BY OPPONENT
TEAM TIMES SACKED

Oakland 22
Seattle 19½
Denver 18
San Diego 13½
Buffalo 7
Green Bay 5
Houston/Tennessee 4
Indianapolis 4
San Francisco 4
Chicago 3
Cleveland 3
Philadelphia 3
Minnesota 2½
Arizona 2
New England 2
N.Y. Giants 2
Los Angeles/St. Louis 2
Pittsburgh 2
New Orleans 1½
Atlanta 1
Cincinnati 1
Dallas 1
N.Y. Jets 1
Washington 1
Jacksonville ½

Rain Man
10-28-2004, 02:37 PM
Excellent stats, kingpriest. Where'd you dig those up?


Reduced-calorie rep to you.

KingPriest2
10-28-2004, 03:55 PM
Excellent stats, kingpriest. Where'd you dig those up?


Reduced-calorie rep to you.

http://www.wildbillschiefs.com/features/dttribute_careerstats.html

Mile High Mania
10-28-2004, 04:08 PM
What did Neil Smith do when he wasn't playing opposite DT... NOTHING.

He won two SBs in Denver. Sorry ... :p

Actually, I agree that DT was a hell of a player. He had the utmost respect of guys like Elway and you could tell he loved the game and was a good guy. I think he's HOF material. This is a star studded class of guys ... so whether or not he gets in the first try shouldn't matter, he will be enshrined in Canton.

Garcia Bronco
10-28-2004, 04:22 PM
I'd be surprised if he made 1st ballot...not because he doesn't deserve that kind of consideration....it's who else is on the list to get this year....Irvin...Young...Zimmerman...etc.

Rain Man
10-28-2004, 04:25 PM
He won two SBs in Denver. Sorry ... :p




You forgot the asterisk, per chiefsplanet policy. It should read:


He won two SBs in Denver.* Sorry ... :p



*Championships awarded before discovery that Denver had willfully violated the league's salary cap.

Garcia Bronco
10-28-2004, 04:29 PM
You forgot the asterisk, per chiefsplanet policy. It should read:


He won two SBs in Denver.* Sorry ... :p



*Championships awarded before discovery that Denver had willfully violated the league's salary cap.

You forgot the rest.

*Championships awarded before discovery that Denver had willfully violated the league's salary cap. Also destroyed Chiefs hope by beating them in the playoffs 14-10 at Arrowhead, and sweeping the Chiefs the following year to 13-0.

Rain Man
10-28-2004, 04:38 PM
You forgot the rest.

*Championships awarded before discovery that Denver had willfully violated the league's salary cap. Also destroyed Chiefs hope by beating them in the playoffs 14-10 at Arrowhead, and sweeping the Chiefs the following year to 13-0.

That's not in the policy, and you know it.

Garcia Bronco
10-28-2004, 04:47 PM
That's not in the policy, and you know it.


:p

morphius
10-28-2004, 04:55 PM
:p
You forgot about the, "while wearing PAM Cooking Spread, because they knew they couldn't beat the Chiefs in a fair game".

Garcia Bronco
10-28-2004, 05:16 PM
*Championships awarded before discovery that Denver had willfully violated the league's salary cap. Also destroyed Chiefs hope by beating them in the playoffs 14-10 at Arrowhead, and sweeping the Chiefs the following year to 13-0. While wearing PAM Cooking Spread, because they knew they couldn't beat the Chiefs in a fair game. All though the game was probably lost before the game started because coach started the QB that didn't get the Chiefs there.

Crush
10-28-2004, 06:05 PM
http://chiefszone.cjonline.com/dthomas/images/thomas5.jpg

Dave Lane
10-28-2004, 07:05 PM
http://chiefszone.cjonline.com/dthomas/images/thomas5.jpg


YOU AGAIN!!!

Dave

Amnorix
10-28-2004, 07:58 PM
Irvin is in, probably on the 1st ballot. When people think of the 'boys and 3 SBs in 4 years, they think JJ and Aikman/Emmitt/Irvin.

I also don't think Irvin is first ballot-worthy, but he'll probably get in on the first ballot.

Then again, I'm forever pissed off that Andre Tippett looks like he'll never make it. :mad:

Rain Man
10-29-2004, 07:53 AM
For what it's worth, I too think that Tippett was one of the best LBs of his era. There was a two or three year period when it was a tossup whether he or Lawrence Taylor was better, and that was when Taylor was close to his prime.

Boardin Bronco
10-29-2004, 10:55 AM
I always felt Derrick Thomas should have been given Roberto Clemente treatment.

I think the Pro Football Hall of Fame should have inducted him the first year posthumanously like the Baseball Hall of Fame did with Clemente.

I think its been a slap in the face to DT and it would be a greater travesty if DT gets snubbed on the first ballot.

The problem with the Pro Football Hall of Fame is the system. 40 old men get together behind closed doors for a few hours and discuss who is a HOF or who isn't. There's no documentation of the discussion and the voting results aren't released to the public. Basically, the voters can never be accountable for who they select and don't select because we don't know what the hell is going on behind those closed doors.

Sounds like a crock of s*** to me.

Rain Man
10-29-2004, 11:42 AM
Oh, great. Now the Bronco fans start showing up with their ridicul-...uh...their stup...uh...

Okay. Good post.