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View Full Version : The Carl Peterson Years....1991


shaneo69
10-28-2004, 10:06 PM
3rd in a series….

Plan B additions: Richard Bell, Pete Holohan, Marc Munford, Ricky Shaw, Troy Stradford, Mark Vlasic
Street Free Agent additions: Kimble Anders, Tracy Simien, Eric Everett, Ervin Randle
Trade additions: Ron Stallworth (got hurt and never played)

Plan B losses: Irv Eatman, Rob McGovern, Louis Cooper, Danny Copeland, Alfredo Roberts, Jeff Donaldson, Naz Worthen
Cuts: Greg Meisner, Steve Pelluer
Retired: Mike Webster

Draft (Chiefs drafted 21st in the 1st round and then alternated between the 21, 22, & 23 slots in subsequent rounds due to having the same 1990 record as the Eagles, Bears, and Redskins

1) Harvey Williams (Ted Washington was taken 4 picks later and Brett Favre was taken 12 picks later)

2) Joe Valerio (total bust as a 2nd round pick---never started for us. Aeneas Williams was taken 9 picks later and Mo Lewis was taken 13 picks later)

3) Tim Barnett (had a great rookie year with 41 catches and had a big TD in the ’93 playoff win vs. Steelers, but was never consistent; Ed McCaffrey was taken 6 picks later)

4) No pick

5) Charles Mincy (decent value pick who provided depth in our aging secondary, Mincy ended up starting 27 games in 3 years but didn’t stand out)

6) Darrell Malone, DB (never did anything; Leon Lett was picked 11 spots later)

7) Bernard Ellison, DB (never did anything; another DB, Marty Carter, was picked 18 spots later and was a starter in the league for several years)

8) Tom Dohring, OT (never did anything; Howard Griffith, a productive FB, was taken 18 picks later, and Shawn Jefferson, WR, was taken 22 picks later)

9) Robbie Keen, PK (never did anything; Michael Stonebreaker, a decent LB from Notre Dame, was taken with the next pick by the Bears)

10) Eric Ramsey, DB (best known for secretly taping phone conversations with his coach at Auburn, Pat Dye, which led to Auburn being busted for paying its players; Andrew Glover, a somewhat productive TE, was taken with the next pick by the R aiders

11) Bobby Olive, WR (never did anything; Ted Popson was taken 6 picks later, 1996 Super Bowl MVP Larry Brown was taken 20 picks later, but here’s the kicker: Keenan McCardell was taken 26 picks after we took a WR named Bobby Olive)

12) Ron Shipley, OG (only 5 players were picked after him; none were successful)


1991 Starters:
S. DeBerg, B. Jones, C. Okoye, J. Hayes, J. Alt, D. Szott, T. Grunhard, D. Lutz, R. Baldinger, R. Thomas, T. Barnett
N. Smith, D. Saleaumua, B. Maas, D. Thomas, T. Simien, D. Hackett, C. Martin, K. Ross, A. Lewis, D. Cherry, K. Porter
N. Lowery, B. Barker

Marty Bashers stat of the year:
Pete Holohan had caught at least 49 passes in each of the previous three seasons with the Rams, but only caught 13 passes in 16 games after coming over to the Chiefs in Plan B. Needless to say, 1991 was his only season in KC.


Coming soon…..1992

Deberg_1990
10-28-2004, 10:10 PM
Mark Vlasic baby!! I think he actually started a few games that year?

KingPriest2
10-28-2004, 10:23 PM
Joe Valerio 15 2 5 2

1994 2 catches 5 yards 2 tds

Joe Valerio 16 1 1 1

1995 1 catch 1 yard 1 td

Joe Valerio is currently a Vice President for Willis, a global risk management consulting firm. He is also the Founder and President of Gridiron Concepts Ltd., a consulting firm that specializes in creating effective teams. During his six-year career with the NFL’s Kansas City Chiefs, Joe started at every position on the offensive line, including tight end. As an offensive lineman he caught an NFL-record four touchdown passes, three from the legendary Joe Montana.

Joe’s active role in the community included speaking to numerous businesses and service organizations, as well as over 100 schools on a variety of topics.

He also established and maintained a charitable foundation, “Joe Valerio Centers on Kids” benefiting a Kansas City area children’s hospital.

In 1995 Joe was nominated for NFL Man of the Year for outstanding community service. In addition to his on field efforts, Joe was a sports anchor for Kansas City’s KMBC Channel 9, and a sports talk show host for KCFX 101.1 FM Radio.

While earning an economics degree from The University of Pennsylvania, Joe received First Team All-Ivy League and First Team All-American honors. He was also voted Team Captain and Team Most Valuable Player by his teammates.

Today, Joe continues his community service in the Philadelphia area as a member of the Executive Committee of the Southeastern Pennsylvania Chapter of the March of Dimes Board of Directors. Joe’s family also acts as an Ambassador Family for the March of Dimes. He is the Vice President of the Ridley Educational Foundation, a non-profit organization that grants funds to teachers for innovative programs at his high school alma mater. He has also served as the Vice President of the Philadelphia Chapter of the National Football League Retired Players Association.


You call that a Total Bust? He caught a NFL record 4 TD passes as a O lineman. Started every position on the line including tight end. And yet he say he never did start for us.

htismaqe
10-29-2004, 07:13 AM
You call that a Total Bust? He caught a NFL record 4 TD passes as a O lineman. Started every position on the line including tight end. And yet he say he never did start for us.

I'm sure he meant that Joe was never a full-time starter for us, which he wasn't. He started at every position on the offensive line for us, yes. Much like Marcus Spears, who started at a couple of positions, but was never a "starter".

KingPriest2
10-29-2004, 07:15 AM
I'm sure he meant that Joe was never a full-time starter for us, which he wasn't. He started at every position on the offensive line for us, yes. Much like Marcus Spears, who started at a couple of positions, but was never a "starter".


but he still is not a total bust.

KCTitus
10-29-2004, 07:34 AM
Dammit, Carl...you didnt draft Bret Farve with your first round pick. Of course, neither did any other GM, but dammit! we dont care about that!


signed,
The Usual Suspect.

Be sure to check out my new thread series titled the Lottery Years, where I review the Lottery Numbers that should have been picked instead.

shaneo69
10-29-2004, 08:20 AM
but he still is not a total bust.

He was a 2nd round pick who started a TOTAL of FOUR GAMES in four years. If you don't think that constitutes a total bust, then we can agree to disagree.

I don't give a damn what kind of accolades he's gotten in the business world or from his charitable work after his football career was over. And I don't care that he caught 4 TD passes as a tackle eligible. He was drafted to be an offensive lineman and he couldn't cut it.

shaneo69
10-29-2004, 08:42 AM
Be sure to check out my new thread series titled the Lottery Years, where I review the Lottery Numbers that should have been picked instead.

Yeah, that might be a good read, but when you pick lottery numbers, there's no way of reasonably knowing what numbers will be drawn.

On the other hand, a GM should have a bit of a clue as to which players will be successful (barring injury) in the pros, since you have 3 or 4 years of college experience, bowl games, the scouting combine, and personal interviews to go by.

KingPriest2
10-29-2004, 08:47 AM
He was a 2nd round pick who started a TOTAL of FOUR GAMES in four years. If you don't think that constitutes a total bust, then we can agree to disagree.

I don't give a damn what kind of accolades he's gotten in the business world or from his charitable work after his football career was over. And I don't care that he caught 4 TD passes as a tackle eligible. He was drafted to be an offensive lineman and he couldn't cut it.


He was not a bust. He contributed to the team. Atotal bust would not have.

Skip Towne
10-29-2004, 08:48 AM
Yeah, that might be a good read, but when you pick lottery numbers, there's no way of reasonably knowing what numbers will be drawn.

On the other hand, a GM should have a bit of a clue as to which players will be successful (barring injury) in the pros, since you have 3 or 4 years of college experience, bowl games, the scouting combine, and personal interviews to go by.
I never thought of that.

shaneo69
10-29-2004, 09:01 AM
Back in '91, Peterson was still looking for a QB to replace an aging DeBerg, and he was still looking for a good WR. Pelluer hadn't panned out at QB, so Vlasic was brought in, and they were still holding out hope that Elkins would develop, so no QB's were taken in the '91 draft.

Stephone Paige was coming off a career year, but he was not a speedster, and he was nearing the end of his career. Naz Worthen and Robb Thomas from the '89 draft, and Fred Jones from the '90 draft weren't developing into top-line WR's, so Peterson decided to throw another dart in the 3rd round and ended up with Tim Barnett.

Peterson/Schottenheimer apparently also wanted a speedy RB to go along with smashmouth RB's Okoye and Word, so they reached for Harvey Williams, the first of a string of questionable 1st round RB picks by the Chiefs in the Peterson era.

Here is what the scouts were saying about Harvey Williams before the '91 draft (as taken from Don Heinrich's '91 Pro Preview):

"He runs a little high. He's going to take some punishment." Joe Woolley, Eagles

"He worries me. High, erect runners sometimes aren't always healthy. He can look great one day, and you don't know who's coming the next day." John Butler, Bills

"He's had his off-the-field problems. He had a good year this year." Jerry Reichow, Vikings

"I don't know how bad Harvey wants it." Reed Johnson, Broncos


If you just look at the impact we got from the players in this draft class, even without considering the guys that we passed on, I think you'd have to say that this was Peterson's worst draft as Chiefs GM.

BigRedChief
10-29-2004, 09:09 AM
Dammit, Carl...you didnt draft Bret Farve with your first round pick. Of course, neither did any other GM, but dammit! we dont care about that!


signed,
The Usual Suspect.

Be sure to check out my new thread series titled the Lottery Years, where I review the Lottery Numbers that should have been picked instead.

I like these posts. Keep up the good work. Hope youre saving these as text files so they can populate www.firecalpeterson.com (http://www.firecalpeterson.com) someday.

nmt1
10-29-2004, 09:09 AM
The hindsight exercise continues. Nice breakdown nonetheless. Are you going to take my suggestion and make a stab at objectivity by breaking down the other teams drafts?

htismaqe
10-29-2004, 09:16 AM
The hindsight exercise continues. Nice breakdown nonetheless. Are you going to take my suggestion and make a stab at objectivity by breaking down the other teams drafts?

That was my point in previous versions of this thread.

You can do this for every team in the league. Hindsight is always 20/20.

shaneo69
10-29-2004, 09:43 AM
The hindsight exercise continues. Nice breakdown nonetheless. Are you going to take my suggestion and make a stab at objectivity by breaking down the other teams drafts?

If that was a compliment, thanks.

I have decided against doing a comprehensive comparison of Peterson's drafts with other teams' drafts. But thanks for the suggestion. If Lamar Hunt was paying me $40,000 a year to review CP's performance, I would definitely look at other teams' draft performances. But he's not, and I don't really have that much time. Call me lazy. And subjective.

But there are also other reasons I don't want to do this. First, who am I supposed to compare him to? Are there any other GM's that have been with their teams for the past 16 years? I think every other team has fired their GM at least once during that time because the GM was unable to get them to the Super Bowl. Is Bill Polian a fair comparison? Probably not. He's had one team go to four Super Bowls, another team go to the NFC Championship, and another team go to the AFC Championship. So his record looks better than Carl's, but he's been with three teams.

Should I compare the Chiefs drafts to other AFC West teams? The bottom line is that the other three have made it to the Super Bowl since the Chiefs won a playoff game. Maybe that was more due to the fact that the other teams had better coaches, but hey, CP picked his head coaches.

Finally, I'm sure that if you did a comprehensive breakdown of every team's drafts, and you somehow were able to come up with a point system that everybody agreed with, CP would probably finish with more points than teams like Cincy, AZ, SD, etc. But like HTIS says, "Better than bad does not equal good."

shaneo69
10-29-2004, 09:54 AM
Interesting note about the '91 draft from KCChiefs.com...

In 1991, Mark Hatley played a major role in conducting the team’s draft when personnel director Whitey Dovell temporarily relinquished his position due to illness.

htismaqe
10-29-2004, 09:58 AM
If that was a compliment, thanks.

I have decided against doing a comprehensive comparison of Peterson's drafts with other teams' drafts. But thanks for the suggestion. If Lamar Hunt was paying me $40,000 a year to review CP's performance, I would definitely look at other teams' draft performances. But he's not, and I don't really have that much time. Call me lazy. And subjective.

But there are also other reasons I don't want to do this. First, who am I supposed to compare him to? Are there any other GM's that have been with their teams for the past 16 years? I think every other team has fired their GM at least once during that time because the GM was unable to get them to the Super Bowl. Is Bill Polian a fair comparison? Probably not. He's had one team go to four Super Bowls, another team go to the NFC Championship, and another team go to the AFC Championship. So his record looks better than Carl's, but he's been with three teams.

Should I compare the Chiefs drafts to other AFC West teams? The bottom line is that the other three have made it to the Super Bowl since the Chiefs won a playoff game. Maybe that was more due to the fact that the other teams had better coaches, but hey, CP picked his head coaches.

Finally, I'm sure that if you did a comprehensive breakdown of every team's drafts, and you somehow were able to come up with a point system that everybody agreed with, CP would probably finish with more points than teams like Cincy, AZ, SD, etc. But like HTIS says, "Better than bad does not equal good."

EXCELLENT post.

KingPriest2
10-29-2004, 10:00 AM
If that was a compliment, thanks.

I have decided against doing a comprehensive comparison of Peterson's drafts with other teams' drafts. But thanks for the suggestion. If Lamar Hunt was paying me $40,000 a year to review CP's performance, I would definitely look at other teams' draft performances. But he's not, and I don't really have that much time. Call me lazy. And subjective.

But there are also other reasons I don't want to do this. First, who am I supposed to compare him to? Are there any other GM's that have been with their teams for the past 16 years? I think every other team has fired their GM at least once during that time because the GM was unable to get them to the Super Bowl. Is Bill Polian a fair comparison? Probably not. He's had one team go to four Super Bowls, another team go to the NFC Championship, and another team go to the AFC Championship. So his record looks better than Carl's, but he's been with three teams.

Should I compare the Chiefs drafts to other AFC West teams? The bottom line is that the other three have made it to the Super Bowl since the Chiefs won a playoff game. Maybe that was more due to the fact that the other teams had better coaches, but hey, CP picked his head coaches.

Finally, I'm sure that if you did a comprehensive breakdown of every team's drafts, and you somehow were able to come up with a point system that everybody agreed with, CP would probably finish with more points than teams like Cincy, AZ, SD, etc. But like HTIS says, "Better than bad does not equal good."


You have to compare the draft to all the other teams draft to get a more objective draft. You need to present their needs and wants. You need to compare everyone to get a better understanding of the draft.

nmt1
10-29-2004, 10:10 AM
If that was a compliment, thanks.

I have decided against doing a comprehensive comparison of Peterson's drafts with other teams' drafts. But thanks for the suggestion. If Lamar Hunt was paying me $40,000 a year to review CP's performance, I would definitely look at other teams' draft performances. But he's not, and I don't really have that much time. Call me lazy. And subjective.

But there are also other reasons I don't want to do this. First, who am I supposed to compare him to? Are there any other GM's that have been with their teams for the past 16 years? I think every other team has fired their GM at least once during that time because the GM was unable to get them to the Super Bowl. Is Bill Polian a fair comparison? Probably not. He's had one team go to four Super Bowls, another team go to the NFC Championship, and another team go to the AFC Championship. So his record looks better than Carl's, but he's been with three teams.

Should I compare the Chiefs drafts to other AFC West teams? The bottom line is that the other three have made it to the Super Bowl since the Chiefs won a playoff game. Maybe that was more due to the fact that the other teams had better coaches, but hey, CP picked his head coaches.

Finally, I'm sure that if you did a comprehensive breakdown of every team's drafts, and you somehow were able to come up with a point system that everybody agreed with, CP would probably finish with more points than teams like Cincy, AZ, SD, etc. But like HTIS says, "Better than bad does not equal good."

I don't expect you to breakdown other drafts nor did I think you would. I just want to make sure we keep the proper perspective on this. Since you've decided to shed all pretense of objectivity, I have no problem with your analysis. In fact, as I said on another one of your threads, I'm glad you're breaking our drafts down. It needed to be done, IMO.

shaneo69
10-29-2004, 10:36 AM
You have to compare the draft to all the other teams draft to get a more objective draft. You need to present their needs and wants. You need to compare everyone to get a better understanding of the draft.

I've only looked at three of Peterson's drafts so far, but I already see a pattern. When the Chiefs made a bad pick, it wasn't like they picked a RB that failed over a RB that went on to be successful. Instead, it looks like they were focused on a position where they felt they needed to upgrade, even though there wasn't a good enough player available in the draft at that particular position. For example, I'll go back to '89. They needed a QBotF. Where they were drafting, they couldn't get a true QBotF, but they picked Elkins anyway instead of picking the best player available, no matter the position. In that case, I think they reached for Elkins because he was a QB. If you're one of the people who think they went by their board and had Elkins ranked higher than other players, then they are guilty of bad scouting.

Deberg_1990
10-29-2004, 10:38 AM
Here is what the scouts were saying about Harvey Williams before the '91 draft (as taken from Don Heinrich's '91 Pro Preview):

"He runs a little high. He's going to take some punishment." Joe Woolley, Eagles

"He worries me. High, erect runners sometimes aren't always healthy. He can look great one day, and you don't know who's coming the next day." John Butler, Bills

"He's had his off-the-field problems. He had a good year this year." Jerry Reichow, Vikings

"I don't know how bad Harvey wants it." Reed Johnson, Broncos


If you just look at the impact we got from the players in this draft class, even without considering the guys that we passed on, I think you'd have to say that this was Peterson's worst draft as Chiefs GM.


Yep...Williams, although he went on to have a few decent seasons after that, was a reach in the 1st. As evidenced by our draft just 3 years later when we took Greg Hill because Williams didnt pan out.

KingPriest2
10-29-2004, 10:42 AM
I've only looked at three of Peterson's drafts so far, but I already see a pattern. When the Chiefs made a bad pick, it wasn't like they picked a RB that failed over a RB that went on to be successful. Instead, it looks like they were focused on a position where they felt they needed to upgrade, even though there wasn't a good enough player available in the draft at that particular position. For example, I'll go back to '89. They needed a QBotF. Where they were drafting, they couldn't get a true QBotF, but they picked Elkins anyway instead of picking the best player available, no matter the position. In that case, I think they reached for Elkins because he was a QB. If you're one of the people who think they went by their board and had Elkins ranked higher than other players, then they are guilty of bad scouting.


Good point. YOu are doing a good job. It brings back memories.

htismaqe
10-29-2004, 10:46 AM
I've only looked at three of Peterson's drafts so far, but I already see a pattern. When the Chiefs made a bad pick, it wasn't like they picked a RB that failed over a RB that went on to be successful. Instead, it looks like they were focused on a position where they felt they needed to upgrade, even though there wasn't a good enough player available in the draft at that particular position. For example, I'll go back to '89. They needed a QBotF. Where they were drafting, they couldn't get a true QBotF, but they picked Elkins anyway instead of picking the best player available, no matter the position. In that case, I think they reached for Elkins because he was a QB. If you're one of the people who think they went by their board and had Elkins ranked higher than other players, then they are guilty of bad scouting.

That's precisely the reason Carl does better in the later rounds of the draft, particularly with defense.

After round 2 for the most part, and round 3 for sure, the draft is 100% about drafting the BAA.

Deberg_1990
10-29-2004, 10:51 AM
That's precisely the reason Carl does better in the later rounds of the draft, particularly with defense.

After round 2 for the most part, and round 3 for sure, the draft is 100% about drafting the BAA.

So who was the last 1st rounder that Carl really hit on? Tait? Riley? Or some might say SlyMo...

htismaqe
10-29-2004, 11:06 AM
So who was the last 1st rounder that Carl really hit on? Tait? Riley? Or some might say SlyMo...

Tait was a solid 1st-round pick. Riley was as well.

I think the last one they REALLY hit on was Tony G. Sims was starting to come on this season before the injury...I'm hoping he can get back and make something of himself before it's too late.

nmt1
10-29-2004, 01:10 PM
I've only looked at three of Peterson's drafts so far, but I already see a pattern. When the Chiefs made a bad pick, it wasn't like they picked a RB that failed over a RB that went on to be successful. Instead, it looks like they were focused on a position where they felt they needed to upgrade, even though there wasn't a good enough player available in the draft at that particular position. For example, I'll go back to '89. They needed a QBotF. Where they were drafting, they couldn't get a true QBotF, but they picked Elkins anyway instead of picking the best player available, no matter the position. In that case, I think they reached for Elkins because he was a QB. If you're one of the people who think they went by their board and had Elkins ranked higher than other players, then they are guilty of bad scouting.

Interesting theory. If they have been picking players solely on need alone then they have been doing something wrong. I firmly believe that a team should not be afraid to pick any position in the draft regardless of need. The pick should be best available player all the way.

Deberg_1990
10-29-2004, 03:31 PM
Tait was a solid 1st-round pick. Riley was as well.

I think the last one they REALLY hit on was Tony G. Sims was starting to come on this season before the injury...I'm hoping he can get back and make something of himself before it's too late.


Tait and Riley were decent #1 picks...at least they started and helped out the team while they were here! Its worth noting that the Tony G pick was also the only time I remember Carl being bold in the 1st round. I believe we traded up to get him because Dallas wanted him really bad as well.

Chiefnj
10-29-2004, 03:45 PM
After round 2 for the most part, and round 3 for sure, the draft is 100% about drafting the BAA.


I'm not sure I agree. What do you mean by BAA? Play on the field or workout numbers or both? Take Jared Allen as one example. Great productivity in college but a somewhat disappointing workout. Terdell Sands great size but not a good athlete.

htismaqe
10-29-2004, 03:56 PM
I'm not sure I agree. What do you mean by BAA? Play on the field or workout numbers or both? Take Jared Allen as one example. Great productivity in college but a somewhat disappointing workout. Terdell Sands great size but not a good athlete.

I'm saying that teams generally don't look to fill holes in the starting lineup on the 2nd day of the draft.

I agree with Shane that they Chiefs concentrate almost solely on need on day 1 of the draft, and that's why their 1st-day drafts have largely been so bad.

They take more of an emphasis on BAA on day 2, and some of Peterson's late round picks have been absolute gems.