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COCKRINGLEADER
11-01-2004, 04:51 PM
'Dirty tricks' reported on eve of US election

BC-ELECTION-TRICKS
'Dirty tricks' reported on eve of US election

By Deborah Zabarenko

WASHINGTON, Nov 1 (Reuters) - Friendly-sounding phone calls telling African-Americans they don't have to go to the polls this year, warnings that anyone with an unpaid traffic ticket can't vote and phony notices that Election Day is Nov. 3 are among the "dirty tricks" reported on the eve of the ballot.

Election skulduggery is nothing new, voting rights workers said on Monday, but the 2004 contest has been remarkable for the number of bogus flyers, phone calls and other ploys aimed at suppressing the black vote.

"In Tallahassee, Florida, people were calling from a phone bank, calling what they called long term stalwart African-American voters and telling them that because they had been such faithful voters, that the county had decided that they need not go to the polls anymore, that they could vote by telephone," Barbara Arnwine of the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights told reporters.

Arnwine and others on a telephone news conference noted that while black voters were the main target of the tricks, Hispanics and white elderly voters were also vulnerable.

A joint report by the liberal People for the American Way and the NAACP civil rights organization listed at least two cases where flyers were designed to make some minority voters believe they should vote on Wednesday, one day after the actual election day.

The tricks are focused on such battleground states as Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin and Florida, Arnwine said, but have cropped up elsewhere. A hotline set up to take complaints and questions about alleged voter suppression has received more than 5,500 calls daily, she said.

VOTE ON NOVEMBER 3?

The report provided copies of various flyers aimed suppressing the vote, including one from Allegheny County, Pennsylvania.

"Due to the immense voter turnout that is expected on Tuesday, November 2, the state of Pennsylvania has requested an extended voting period," read the official-looking flyer, advising Republicans to vote on Tuesday, Democrats a day later -- after polls were closed.

A similar flyer distributed in Jefferson County, Alabama simply gave out the wrong date for voting: "Attention: Jefferson County!!!!! See You At The Poles sic November 4, 2004."

In Wisconsin, flyers from the non-existent Milwaukee Black Voters League offered some "warnings for election time," including the false claim that anyone who voted in a primary election could not vote again the general election.

"If anybody in your family has ever been found guilty of anything, you can't vote in the presidential election," the flyer read. "If you violate any of these laws, you can get 10 years in prison and your children will get taken away from you."

In Columbia, South Carolina, a letter on fake NAACP stationery claimed that anyone with an outstanding parking ticket or unpaid child support would be arrested, and said voters must bring two forms of photo identification, a recent credit check and a handwriting sample in order to cast their votes.

If there is no clear winner after polls close on Tuesday, NAACP Chairman Julian Bond said it would show "that the country which counts itself the greatest democracy in the world is incapable of holding an election in which most people believe votes are fairly cast and fairly counted, and that the country is incapable of restraining the racist impulses of people who are so desperate to prevail that they will break the law again and again and again."

Donger
11-01-2004, 04:59 PM
Seriously, if anyone falls for that kind of crap, should they really be allowed to vote?

COCKRINGLEADER
11-01-2004, 05:02 PM
Seriously, if anyone falls for that kind of crap, should they really be allowed to vote?

some people aren't as informed as you.... :banghead:

Donger
11-01-2004, 05:03 PM
some people aren't as informed as you.... :banghead:

Well, gee, maybe they shouldn't vote in the first place.

headsnap
11-01-2004, 05:09 PM
some people aren't as informed as you.... :banghead:

yeah, thanks to what the liberals did to the education system. :rolleyes:

Soupnazi
11-01-2004, 05:25 PM
Anyone ever consider that people may be making up a lot of these charges?

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 05:32 PM
Seriously, if anyone falls for that kind of crap, should they really be allowed to vote?

Congratulations on winning the Roy Cohn award!

Anyone you'd care to thank?

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 05:37 PM
some people aren't as informed as you.... :banghead:
I swear, some people make the most ironic statements. Here is a pseudonym complaining about falsification beyond the realm of stupidity.

Ugly Duck
11-01-2004, 05:44 PM
WASHINGTON, Nov 1 (Reuters) - Friendly-sounding phone calls telling African-Americans they don't have to go to the polls this year, .....and telling them that because they had been such faithful voters, that the county had decided that they need not go to the polls anymore, that they could vote by telephone" We're even seeing that Republican mindset here in California.... roving bands of jackbooted Republican thugs tearing down the Kerry-Edwards signs from people's yards. And now, the despicable phonecalls advising African-Americans that they can cast their vote by phone and do not have to go to the polls. Praise God, Peace be Upon Him, the Republican Intimidators have been barred from the Ohio polling places. If we can just hold off the Republican assault upon our voting rights (they were so successful last time in Florida), we can cast a fair vote as our Founding Fathers intended....

penchief
11-01-2004, 06:03 PM
Here is a pseudonym complaining about falsification beyond the realm of stupidity.

Huh? Are you Logical posing as KCW............ or are you Don King?

COCKRINGLEADER
11-01-2004, 06:05 PM
We're even seeing that Republican mindset here in California.... roving bands of jackbooted Republican thugs tearing down the Kerry-Edwards signs from people's yards. And now, the despicable phonecalls advising African-Americans that they can cast their vote by phone and do not have to go to the polls. Praise God, Peace be Upon Him, the Republican Intimidators have been barred from the Ohio polling places. If we can just hold off the Republican assault upon our voting rights (they were so successful last time in Florida), we can cast a fair vote as our Founding Fathers intended....


Still, you have to admit it is pretty shitty behavior.

penchief
11-01-2004, 06:06 PM
We're even seeing that Republican mindset here in California.... roving bands of jackbooted Republican thugs tearing down the Kerry-Edwards signs from people's yards. And now, the despicable phonecalls advising African-Americans that they can cast their vote by phone and do not have to go to the polls. Praise God, Peace be Upon Him, the Republican Intimidators have been barred from the Ohio polling places. If we can just hold off the Republican assault upon our voting rights (they were so successful last time in Florida), we can cast a fair vote as our Founding Fathers intended....


It's the party of Lincoln..............or say they say.

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:07 PM
Huh? Are you Logical posing as KCW............ or are you Don King?
No, but CRingleader is not who he generally posts as on this board. It is sad that almost all his posts under the nom de plume are about deception.

Hel'n
11-01-2004, 06:08 PM
Still, you have to admit it is pretty shitty behavior.


It sucks...

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:08 PM
We're even seeing that Republican mindset here in California.... roving bands of jackbooted Republican thugs tearing down the Kerry-Edwards signs from people's yards. And now, the despicable phonecalls advising African-Americans that they can cast their vote by phone and do not have to go to the polls. Praise God, Peace be Upon Him, the Republican Intimidators have been barred from the Ohio polling places. If we can just hold off the Republican assault upon our voting rights (they were so successful last time in Florida), we can cast a fair vote as our Founding Fathers intended....
You have people so stupid that they believe the phone calls?

jcl-kcfan2
11-01-2004, 06:08 PM
I sure would like to see one of those letters or flyers...

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:08 PM
Still, you have to admit it is pretty shitty behavior.
How do you feel about the Democrats lying and placing phone calls in Norman Schwarzkopf's name?

COCKRINGLEADER
11-01-2004, 06:09 PM
I swear, some people make the most ironic statements. Here is a pseudonym complaining about falsification beyond the realm of stupidity.


I didn't realize that KCWOLFMAN was your christian name...

Now, I realize you just got a word of the day calandar.... but, this is an article off the news wire... I thought some would enjoy it.

:shake:

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:10 PM
I didn't realize that KCWOLFMAN was your christian name...

Now, I realize you just got a word of the day calandar.... but, this is an article off the news wire... I thought some would enjoy it.

:shake:
Nope, my Christian name is Russ. You wanna tell everyone your name you typically post under on this board, or do you want to continue to be a coward.

Hell, I already looked up your real name, you really aren't very good at the game.

Baby Lee
11-01-2004, 06:10 PM
Allegations of calls being made without identification of the alleged callers.
Allegations of flyers being disbursed without identification of the alleged distributors.

Sounds like a certain Democratic Party is fulfilling it's mandate to "push the issue of disenfranchisement [sic] to the fore, even if there is no evidence of such."

The irony is, any allegations of this sort are credible [regardless of merit] because the dem demographic has proven itself stupid enough to fall for it. But no one would believe that a Bush supporter could be derailed by a dastardly flier.

Cochise
11-01-2004, 06:11 PM
Congratulations on winning the Roy Cohn award!

Anyone you'd care to thank?

ahhh it's a shame that someone with a pretty good wit has to be a libbie :shake: :p

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:11 PM
Allegations of calls being made without identification of the alleged callers.
Allegations of flyers being disbursed without identification of the alleged distributors.

Sounds like a certain Democratic Party is fulfilling it's mandate to "push the issue of disenfranchisement [sic] to the fore, even if there is no evidence of such."
Hell, they even have their puppets on this board speaking their voice for them.

COCKRINGLEADER
11-01-2004, 06:12 PM
How do you feel about the Democrats lying and placing phone calls in Norman Schwarzkopf's name?


wow, you read drudge....

To answer your question, I think it is also stupid. Why? One it is dishonest. Two, because Schwarzkopf was part of Wimpy's admin. and I wouldn't want to be associated with the smarter Bush.

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:13 PM
wow, you read drudge....

To answer your question, I think it is also stupid. Why? One it is dishonest. Two, because Schwarzkopf was part of Wimpy's admin. and I wouldn't want to be associated with the smarter Bush.
Actually, I heard it on ABC radio a few moments ago.

Strike two.

Cochise
11-01-2004, 06:16 PM
Allegations of calls being made without identification of the alleged callers.
Allegations of flyers being disbursed without identification of the alleged distributors.

Sounds like a certain Democratic Party is fulfilling it's mandate to "push the issue of disenfranchisement [sic] to the fore, even if there is no evidence of such."

If you ask me it's happening on both sides and no one will ever know the true extent of it or what effect it has. And it's probably being falsely reported, trumped up, or just plain contrived too.

But, can you really blame the Bush or sKerry camp for something that unscrupulous dumbass supporters or willing accomplices in the media do? No.

If you talk about a campaign trying to throw out ballots of servicemen overseas, or some kind of thing like that, it's one thing, but there's no accounting for or limit to human stupidity either.

Hel'n
11-01-2004, 06:18 PM
Nope, my Christian name is Russ. You wanna tell everyone your name you typically post under on this board, or do you want to continue to be a coward.

Hell, I already looked up your real name, you really aren't very good at the game.

Why is this important or germaine to the article?

You make yourself sound superior for knowing who this person really is... as if the validity of the point made is no longer relevant because you KNOW who the person is...

:shake:

Cochise
11-01-2004, 06:21 PM
Allright wolfman, why not unmask him?

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:22 PM
Why is this important or germaine to the article?

You make yourself sound superior for knowing who this person really is... as if the validity of the point made is no longer relevant because you KNOW who the person is...

:shake:
I just find it ironic that our little friend who complains about dishonesty so much, he can't be honest enough to print under his own name. As far as being superior, it doesn't surprise me that you interpreted the statement that way.

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:23 PM
Allright wolfman, why not unmask him?
Nope, that is up to the coward himself.

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:23 PM
If you ask me it's happening on both sides and no one will ever know the true extent of it or what effect it has. And it's probably being falsely reported, trumped up, or just plain contrived too.

But, can you really blame the Bush or sKerry camp for something that unscrupulous dumbass supporters or willing accomplices in the media do? No.

If you talk about a campaign trying to throw out ballots of servicemen overseas, or some kind of thing like that, it's one thing, but there's no accounting for or limit to human stupidity either.
Exactly, however the libbies on this board can't admit that to themselves as they have to hold hope that they can attempt to screw another election if they lose the vote yet again.

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 06:23 PM
ahhh it's a shame that someone with a pretty good wit has to be a libbie :shake: :p


See? God DOESN'T like you.

Cochise
11-01-2004, 06:23 PM
Nope, that is up to the coward himself.

Well, I figured it was not a unique handle but rather someone without enough sack to post under their real name, so its a wash either way I suppose.

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 06:24 PM
Hell, they even have their puppets on this board speaking their voice for them.

Reminder: The tinfoil goes shiny side OUT.

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:25 PM
Reminder: The tinfoil goes shiny side OUT.
VoE?

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 06:27 PM
VoE?

Unnnnngh?

COCKRINGLEADER
11-01-2004, 06:28 PM
wow - at war with KCWOLFMAN, ahem... Russ, for no good reason. Seems to me unless you are having a Bukake with some of the other log cabin Republicans on the board you tend to get nasty. I post articles I think people would like to hear about. Nobody wants election fraud... it is disgusting. What if instead voters in the black or impovrished part of town, people where calling your neighborhood and telling Cletus and the guys that God had declared Bush the winner (in a run-off of heavenly electorates), wouldn't that be news?

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:29 PM
Unnnnngh?
Voice of Experience

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 06:30 PM
Voice of Experience

I did charity work for a while, making tinfoil hats for LaRouchies.

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:31 PM
wow - at war with KCWOLFMAN, ahem... Russ, for no good reason. Seems to me unless you are having a Bukake with some of the other log cabin Republicans on the board you tend to get nasty. I post articles I think people would like to hear about. Nobody wants election fraud... it is disgusting. What if instead voters in the black or impovrished part of town, people where calling your neighborhood and telling Cletus and the guys that God had declared Bush the winner (in a run-off of heavenly electorates), wouldn't that be news?
Ahhh, the you must be homosexual, eh chief? You came up with that in a ny minute.


As far as the latter portion of your post, present these mystical disappearing people that you seem to know so much about. We have caller ID, tracing capabilities, video-cameras, human eyes, license plates, etc. Yet we can never catch the dreaded Rep disenfranchiser. Tell me, does he look like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster? You are pathetic.

Baby Lee
11-01-2004, 06:31 PM
What if instead voters in the black or impovrished part of town, people where calling your neighborhood and telling Cletus and the guys that God had declared Bush the winner (in a run-off of heavenly electorates), wouldn't that be news?
Would it have been news is Jethro heard sumthin about it from Cletus who thought Billy had been grousin' about somesuch? Then Jethro passed it on to Horace at the paper who printed it on the front page.

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 06:32 PM
I did charity work for a while, making tinfoil hats for LaRouchies.
Can you make some for these idiots who state the disenfranchisers exist but can never produce them?>

penchief
11-01-2004, 06:43 PM
How do you feel about the Democrats lying and placing phone calls in Norman Schwarzkopf's name?

Shitty behavior, too.....however, trying to ride the good general's coattails is slightly different, IMO, than going straight to lowest point by targeting the biases of a particular voting block.

Those who support the candidate that appeals to their emotions or their biases do so at their own (and others) peril.

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 06:45 PM
Can you make some for these idiots who state the disenfranchisers exist but can never produce them?>

Like Greg Palast? ROFL

Ugly Duck
11-01-2004, 06:53 PM
You have people so stupid that they believe the phone calls?Yep..... and the Evil Ones of the GOP of Darkness prey upon the unfortunate as if it was their calling to do so. Yea, thy should honor the meek, for they shall inherit the earth... and yet the Evil GOPs prey upon the downtrodden in this most dastardly manner - Curses be upon them!!

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 06:55 PM
Yep..... and the Evil Ones of the GOP of Darkness prey upon the unfortunate as if it was their calling to do so. Yea, thy should honor the meek, for they shall inherit the earth... and yet the Evil GOPs prey upon the downtrodden in this most dastardly manner - Curses be upon them!!


You are assuming that God is benevolent.

Cochise
11-01-2004, 06:57 PM
You are assuming that God is benevolent.

It's probably hard for a R_aider fan to grasp the concept.

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 06:59 PM
It's probably hard for a R_aider fan to grasp the concept.

Who you calling a R_aider fan, dude?

I am a BEARS fan. I KNOW the face of degeneracy.

Hel'n
11-01-2004, 07:00 PM
Who you calling a R_aider fan, dude?

I am a BEARS fan. I KNOW the face of degeneracy.

I think it's the icon for the R-aiders... the droppings look similar...

;)

headsnap
11-01-2004, 07:01 PM
Who you calling a R_aider fan, dude?

I am a BEARS fan. I KNOW the face of degeneracy.
Ugly F_ck is a R_aider fan. ;)

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 07:03 PM
Ugly F_ck is a R_aider fan. ;)

Did he get an autographed walker from any of them? ROFL

Cochise
11-01-2004, 07:07 PM
Did he get an autographed walker from any of them? ROFL

I meant... the Raider fans probably feel like God is veangeful and are hoping for another flood at this point in the season :hmmm:

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 07:07 PM
I meant... the Raider fans probably feel like God is veangeful and are hoping for another flood at this point in the season :hmmm:

Well, their players certainly LOOK like Aaron & Moses.

Hehehehe...

COCKRINGLEADER
11-01-2004, 07:50 PM
Ahhh, the you must be homosexual, eh chief? You came up with that in a ny minute.


As far as the latter portion of your post, present these mystical disappearing people that you seem to know so much about. We have caller ID, tracing capabilities, video-cameras, human eyes, license plates, etc. Yet we can never catch the dreaded Rep disenfranchiser. Tell me, does he look like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster? You are pathetic.

LANSING, Mich. (AP) -- Some Michigan voters have received phone calls falsely claiming that Sen. John Kerry would make gay marriage legal. In New Jersey, some voters have heard a man claiming to be former Army Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf backing the Democrat. Elderly voters in Pennsylvania have been called and told they are ineligible to vote.

Republicans and Democrats were furious Monday about the blatantly false, 11th-hour political calls to voters and demanded an end to the messages.

Schwarzkopf has endorsed President Bush, but in a recording of a phone call played for The Associated Press, a man identifying himself as the Persian Gulf War general says, "In 2000, I voted for George W. Bush, but this year I'm voting for John Kerry. ... John Kerry has a real plan to make our military stronger and to go after terrorists wherever they hide. We need a vote for change, vote for John Kerry."

A voice says the message was paid for by the Democratic National Committee.
------------------------
Yeah, you got me...gay as the day is long. Zinger.

sigh :thumb:

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 07:52 PM
Shitty behavior, too.....however, trying to ride the good general's coattails is slightly different, IMO, than going straight to lowest point by targeting the biases of a particular voting block.

Those who support the candidate that appeals to their emotions or their biases do so at their own (and others) peril.
Bullsh*t.

More liberal rationalization.

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 07:52 PM
Like Greg Palast? ROFL
Is that jAZ real name?

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 07:53 PM
Is that jAZ real name?

Um, no....

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 07:53 PM
LANSING, Mich. (AP) -- Some Michigan voters have received phone calls falsely claiming that Sen. John Kerry would make gay marriage legal. In New Jersey, some voters have heard a man claiming to be former Army Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf backing the Democrat. Elderly voters in Pennsylvania have been called and told they are ineligible to vote.

Republicans and Democrats were furious Monday about the blatantly false, 11th-hour political calls to voters and demanded an end to the messages.

Schwarzkopf has endorsed President Bush, but in a recording of a phone call played for The Associated Press, a man identifying himself as the Persian Gulf War general says, "In 2000, I voted for George W. Bush, but this year I'm voting for John Kerry. ... John Kerry has a real plan to make our military stronger and to go after terrorists wherever they hide. We need a vote for change, vote for John Kerry."

A voice says the message was paid for by the Democratic National Committee.

You forgot to bold the last sentence

penchief
11-01-2004, 08:12 PM
Bullsh*t.

More liberal rationalization.

In terms of political tactics, you are correct. I wouldn't argue with that point. However, appeals to the dark side are a lot scarier and say a lot more about character and integrity in much the same way as dishonest personal attacks.

It is time to change the tune in this country. The Uniter has done enough dividing. This country can't take much more of his compassion, IMO.

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 08:13 PM
In terms of political tactics, you are correct. I wouldn't argue with that point. However, appeals to the dark side are a lot scarier and say a lot more about character and integrity in much the same way as dishonest personal attacks.

It is time to change the tune in this country. The Uniter has done enough dividing. This country can't take much more of his compassion, IMO.
Machivellian at best.

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 08:15 PM
Machivellian at best.

Wow! Where did you get all the crocodile tears?

I now await your damning criticism of Karl Rove's tactics.

COCKRINGLEADER
11-01-2004, 08:25 PM
You forgot to bold the last sentence


that is only the first four graphs of the story... wolfman. I am trying to make the point that this is bullshit is taking place all over ...

not the see no evil, hear no evil polilcy of your president.

I am going to go and get high and listen to Peace Train....

penchief
11-01-2004, 08:35 PM
Machivellian at best.

Yeah, I know........you're well-read but let's stick to the topic :).

The one thing I have always bemoaned concerning "conservatives" has been their inability to acknowledge that different degrees of behavior exist.

To them, getting a bj in the White House is a greater sin than lying to America in order to start a war. They also believe that accusations of misbehavior are more important than actual proof of misbehavior.

Another thing that grows tiring about many "conservatives" is the diversionary tactic of employing a counter-charge designed mainly to avoid addressing criticims or questions posed about their positions or the positions of their candidates.

There are many conservatives on this board that I respect. I have many conservative viewpoints pertaining to fiscal responsibility and environmental responsibility (true conservatism). That is why I am pleading with you to take your party back from the right-wing whackos, so-called geniuses, and self-proclaimed messiahs.

Straight, No Chaser
11-01-2004, 08:37 PM
For Dems a handshake is good enough and felons, dead people, and cartoon characters should count.

Republicans want DNA records as proof and require that you be able to read the ballot.

What's splitting the difference?


---->

COCKRINGLEADER
11-01-2004, 08:41 PM
Yeah, I know........you're well-read but let's stick to the topic :).

The one thing I have always bemoaned concerning "conservatives" has been their inability to acknowledge that different degrees of behavior exist.

To them, getting a bj in the White House is a greater sin than lying to America in order to start a war. They also believe that accusations of misbehavior are more important than actual proof of misbehavior.

Another thing that grows tiring about many "conservatives" is the diversionary tactic of employing a counter-charge designed mainly to avoid addressing criticims or questions posed about their positions or the positions of their candidates.

There are many conservatives on this board that I respect. I have many conservative viewpoints pertaining to fiscal responsibility and environmental responsibility (true conservatism). That is why I am pleading with you to take your party back from the right-wing whackos, so-called geniuses, and self-proclaimed messiahs.

:clap: :clap: :clap:


well said... except the part about his reading level... Holy William Jewell!!!

Cochise
11-01-2004, 08:43 PM
The one thing I have always bemoaned concerning "conservatives" has been their inability to acknowledge that different degrees of behavior exist.

To them, getting a bj in the White House is a greater sin than lying to America in order to start a war.


Come on, you know better than that. I mean, even if you disagree you know that conservatives don't believe any lying occurred. No need to intentionally ignore that. And also no need to intentionally ignore that they don't care about the bj, that the issue was (alleged) perjury.


They also believe that accusations of misbehavior are more important than actual proof of misbehavior.

:rolleyes:


Another thing that grows tiring about many "conservatives" is the diversionary tactic of employing a counter-charge designed mainly to avoid addressing criticims or questions posed about their positions or the positions of their candidates.

:rolleyes: Come on, like that doesn't go on about equally on both sides.

The most annoying thing about some liberals on this board is that they can't understand that many of the bad qualities they see in others also exit in themselves.

penchief
11-01-2004, 08:46 PM
Come on, you know better than that. I mean, even if you disagree you know that conservatives don't believe any lying occurred. No need to intentionally ignore that. And also no need to intentionally ignore that they don't care about the bj, that the issue was (alleged) perjury.



:rolleyes:



:rolleyes: Come on, like that doesn't go on about equally on both sides.

The most annoying thing about some liberals on this board is that they can't understand that many of the bad qualities they see in others also exit in themselves.

The lie never would have occurred if BJs weren't so damned important to conservatives.

Can we agree on that?

Cochise
11-01-2004, 08:51 PM
The lie never would have occurred if BJs weren't so damned important to conservatives.

Can we agree on that?

If it was no big deal then why did he lie about it?

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 08:55 PM
If it was no big deal then why did he lie about it?


The fact that his wife was 10 feet away?

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 08:56 PM
Wow! Where did you get all the crocodile tears?

I now await your damning criticism of Karl Rove's tactics.

:crickets:

penchief
11-01-2004, 09:14 PM
If it was no big deal then why did he lie about it?

Was the lie necessary? No

Why did it occur? Because he was asked.

Why was he asked? Because an independent investigative council was given open-ended powers by a partisan congress in order to undermine the presidency for political purposes.

......Oh, and they possessed those illegally recorded tapes of the president and Monica, knowing that the president did not know that they possessed them, and they used them to entrap him. That is another reason he was asked.

Good thing congress had their eye on bin Laden. At least, we know from the 9/11 hearings that Clinton did.

No one is saying it was not a big deal. It just isn't a big deal in the overall scheme of things including government, humanity, and the after-life.

Cochise
11-01-2004, 09:15 PM
The fact that his wife was 10 feet away?

Well, I'm sure that not pissing off his wife was probably a concern, but still. I was talking about penchief making a gross oversimplification of the issue. The issue for conservatives is not that a BJ is a cardinal sin, but that the president had possibly committed perjury.

And even if he lied because of some undue pressure put on him by the vast right wing conspiracy, then you still end up with, at best, an out-and-out lie to save political face.

But perjury is perjury, doesn't matter if you are lying and saying the Bears are a good football team (tip o' the pen) or lying about your BJ or whatever else it is.

I was pointing out that he's laying out all these logical fallacies he always sees from conservatives but serving up plenty of his own, principally by presenting a caricature of the other side's ideas.

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 09:26 PM
Well, I'm sure that not pissing off his wife was probably a concern, but still.

PROBABLY?

Remember who this wife IS, sir.

He's lucky to be alive.

COCKRINGLEADER
11-01-2004, 09:27 PM
PROBABLY?

Remember who this wife IS, sir.

He's lucky to be alive.

man's balls where in a sling. Would you piss of Hil?

:hmmm:

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 09:28 PM
man's balls where in a sling. Would you piss of Hil?

:hmmm:

Hell, no.

Cochise
11-01-2004, 10:01 PM
man's balls where in a sling. Would you piss of Hil?

:hmmm:

Would she have room in there for hers and his both?

Cochise
11-01-2004, 10:07 PM
Was the lie necessary? No

Why did it occur? Because he was asked.

Why was he asked? Because an independent investigative council was given open-ended powers by a partisan congress in order to undermine the presidency for political purposes.

......Oh, and they possessed those illegally recorded tapes of the president and Monica, knowing that the president did not know that they possessed them, and they used them to entrap him. That is another reason he was asked.

Good thing congress had their eye on bin Laden. At least, we know from the 9/11 hearings that Clinton did.

No one is saying it was not a big deal. It just isn't a big deal in the overall scheme of things, including government, humanity, or the after-life.

Good work. There you've laid out perfectly resonable representations of the positions. So why the need to straw-man them the first time around?

The conservatives thought that perjury had happened and it warranted an investigation. The liberals thought that it was all politically motivated.

But instead you dumbed it down to 'conservatives think BJs are more important than war'.

And you were the one crying about 'diversionary tactics' :hmmm:

Hel'n
11-01-2004, 10:10 PM
Yeah, I know........you're well-read but let's stick to the topic :).

The one thing I have always bemoaned concerning "conservatives" has been their inability to acknowledge that different degrees of behavior exist.

To them, getting a bj in the White House is a greater sin than lying to America in order to start a war. They also believe that accusations of misbehavior are more important than actual proof of misbehavior.

Another thing that grows tiring about many "conservatives" is the diversionary tactic of employing a counter-charge designed mainly to avoid addressing criticims or questions posed about their positions or the positions of their candidates.

There are many conservatives on this board that I respect. I have many conservative viewpoints pertaining to fiscal responsibility and environmental responsibility (true conservatism). That is why I am pleading with you to take your party back from the right-wing whackos, so-called geniuses, and self-proclaimed messiahs.

Absolutely great post. And right on the money as far as a few neocons on this board are concerned...

Bravo!

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 10:48 PM
Yeah, I know........you're well-read but let's stick to the topic :).

The one thing I have always bemoaned concerning "conservatives" has been their inability to acknowledge that different degrees of behavior exist.

To them, getting a bj in the White House is a greater sin than lying to America in order to start a war. They also believe that accusations of misbehavior are more important than actual proof of misbehavior.

Another thing that grows tiring about many "conservatives" is the diversionary tactic of employing a counter-charge designed mainly to avoid addressing criticims or questions posed about their positions or the positions of their candidates.

There are many conservatives on this board that I respect. I have many conservative viewpoints pertaining to fiscal responsibility and environmental responsibility (true conservatism). That is why I am pleading with you to take your party back from the right-wing whackos, so-called geniuses, and self-proclaimed messiahs.
And yet another liberal who doesn't know the difference between blowjob and perjury. No wonder our public school systems are failing.

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 10:50 PM
Wow! Where did you get all the crocodile tears?

I now await your damning criticism of Karl Rove's tactics.
What tactics are you speaking of - the proven ones of Republicans attempting to garner support - or the "tin foil" allegations of your buddies on this board for the individual.

I condemn actions alike from both sides when attempting to illegally influence an election - unlike you and your friends who only seem to manage condemnation for one side.

I also condemn the blatant hypocrisy on your side (like Duhnise and penchief) who support the blocking of a fair system to insure fair voting under the guise and lies of "disenfranchisement".

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 10:51 PM
The fact that his wife was 10 feet away?
Then perjury was more important than his country because he didn't want his wife angry.

Not a leader, IMO.

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 10:56 PM
What tactics are you speaking of - the proven ones of Republicans attempting to garner support - or the "tin foil" allegations of your buddies on this board for the individual.

I condemn actions alike from both sides when attempting to illegally influence an election - unlike you and your friends who only seem to manage condemnation for one side.

I also condemn the blatant hypocrisy on your side (like Duhnise and penchief) who support the blocking of a fair system to insure fair voting under the guise and lies of "disenfranchisement".

How about this kind of shit?

Kennedy had spent years on the bench as a juvenile and family-court judge, during which time he had developed a strong interest in aiding abused children. In the early 1980s he had helped to start the Children's Trust Fund of Alabama, and he later established the Corporate Foundation for Children, a private, nonprofit organization. At the time of the race he had just served a term as president of the National Committee to Prevent Child Abuse and Neglect. One of Rove's signature tactics is to attack an opponent on the very front that seems unassailable. Kennedy was no exception.

Some of Kennedy's campaign commercials touted his volunteer work, including one that showed him holding hands with children. "We were trying to counter the positives from that ad," a former Rove staffer told me, explaining that some within the See camp initiated a whisper campaign that Kennedy was a pedophile. "It was our standard practice to use the University of Alabama Law School to disseminate whisper-campaign information," the staffer went on. "That was a major device we used for the transmission of this stuff. The students at the law school are from all over the state, and that's one of the ways that Karl got the information out—he knew the law students would take it back to their home towns and it would get out." This would create the impression that the lie was in fact common knowledge across the state. "What Rove does," says Joe Perkins, "is try to make something so bad for a family that the candidate will not subject the family to the hardship. Mark is not your typical Alabama macho, beer-drinkin', tobacco-chewin', pickup-drivin' kind of guy. He is a small, well-groomed, well-educated family man, and what they tried to do was make him look like a homosexual pedophile. That was really, really hard to take."

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200411/green?ca=ZylnpoS9tWz%2B384zl5EGISsgVsrssaIe5iIZm RrDHug%3D

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 11:02 PM
How about this kind of shit?

Kennedy had spent years on the bench as a juvenile and family-court judge, during which time he had developed a strong interest in aiding abused children. In the early 1980s he had helped to start the Children's Trust Fund of Alabama, and he later established the Corporate Foundation for Children, a private, nonprofit organization. At the time of the race he had just served a term as president of the National Committee to Prevent Child Abuse and Neglect. One of Rove's signature tactics is to attack an opponent on the very front that seems unassailable. Kennedy was no exception.

Some of Kennedy's campaign commercials touted his volunteer work, including one that showed him holding hands with children. "We were trying to counter the positives from that ad," a former Rove staffer told me, explaining that some within the See camp initiated a whisper campaign that Kennedy was a pedophile. "It was our standard practice to use the University of Alabama Law School to disseminate whisper-campaign information," the staffer went on. "That was a major device we used for the transmission of this stuff. The students at the law school are from all over the state, and that's one of the ways that Karl got the information out—he knew the law students would take it back to their home towns and it would get out." This would create the impression that the lie was in fact common knowledge across the state. "What Rove does," says Joe Perkins, "is try to make something so bad for a family that the candidate will not subject the family to the hardship. Mark is not your typical Alabama macho, beer-drinkin', tobacco-chewin', pickup-drivin' kind of guy. He is a small, well-groomed, well-educated family man, and what they tried to do was make him look like a homosexual pedophile. That was really, really hard to take."

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200411/green?ca=ZylnpoS9tWz%2B384zl5EGISsgVsrssaIe5iIZm RrDHug%3D
Childish by Rove. But do you have anything besides "he told people who told people" as some kind of proof?

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 11:07 PM
Childish by Rove. But do you have anything besides "he told people who told people" as some kind of proof?

Ask the editor at the Atlantic...or, easier, go to the link, and check their bibliography/sources.

If this was some shit from moveon or truthout, I'd be laughing...but it isn't.

KCWolfman
11-01-2004, 11:11 PM
Ask the editor at the Atlantic...or, easier, go to the link, and check their bibliography/sources.

If this was some shit from moveon or truthout, I'd be laughing...but it isn't.
It isn't the editor, it is an unnamed source who stated he worked with Rove. The fault could be Rove's, it could be the source, or it could be Atlantic - fact is there is no proof and just your "crocodile tears" to blame him.

MadProphetMargin
11-01-2004, 11:16 PM
It isn't the editor, it is an unnamed source who stated he worked with Rove. The fault could be Rove's, it could be the source, or it could be Atlantic - fact is there is no proof and just your "crocodile tears" to blame him.

You think the editor of the Atlantic is going to allow a libel suit, or the tarnishing of his magazine's reputation?

We aren't talking about the National Inquirer, here...nor are we discussing a partisan rag like the Nation, or National Review.

Hel'n
11-01-2004, 11:21 PM
You think the editor of the Atlantic is going to allow a libel suit, or the tarnishing of his magazine's reputation?

We aren't talking about the National Inquirer, here...nor are we discussing a partisan rag like the Nation, or National Review.

Forget it. He will excuse Rove no matter what. If it was McAulliffe on the other hand, KCW would be screaming...

patteeu
11-01-2004, 11:43 PM
Shitty behavior, too.....however, trying to ride the good general's coattails is slightly different, IMO, than going straight to lowest point by targeting the biases of a particular voting block.

Those who support the candidate that appeals to their emotions or their biases do so at their own (and others) peril.

The voting block you are talking about must be those who are incredibly stupid if they fall for the kind of things listed in this article.

patteeu
11-01-2004, 11:55 PM
The lie never would have occurred if BJs weren't so damned important to conservatives.

Can we agree on that?

No.

I think it's safe to say that conservatives approve of BJs between consenting adults just like you libs do. Some conservatives seem to be less tolerant of adultery than libs but I don't think it cuts cleanly along partisan lines. Bill Clinton's critics definitely seem to be more interested in fair court proceedings than his defenders do though.

patteeu
11-01-2004, 11:59 PM
Was the lie necessary? No

Why did it occur? Because he was asked.

Why was he asked? Because an independent investigative council was given open-ended powers by a partisan congress in order to undermine the presidency for political purposes.

......Oh, and they possessed those illegally recorded tapes of the president and Monica, knowing that the president did not know that they possessed them, and they used them to entrap him. That is another reason he was asked.

Good thing congress had their eye on bin Laden. At least, we know from the 9/11 hearings that Clinton did.

No one is saying it was not a big deal. It just isn't a big deal in the overall scheme of things including government, humanity, and the after-life.

I like you penchief, but you apparently don't understand what entrapment is.

MadProphetMargin
11-02-2004, 12:29 AM
Forget it. He will excuse Rove no matter what. If it was McAulliffe on the other hand, KCW would be screaming...

Yeah, that's what I gather.

Baby Lee
11-02-2004, 04:42 AM
In terms of political tactics, you are correct. I wouldn't argue with that point. However, appeals to the dark side are a lot scarier and say a lot more about character and integrity in much the same way as dishonest personal attacks.

It is time to change the tune in this country. The Uniter has done enough dividing. This country can't take much more of his compassion, IMO.
OMFG!!! The brass ones on this guy.

I'm gonna bitch like an infant with a full diaper for four years, THEN blame the Prez for my perception of the mood in the country.

Baby Lee
11-02-2004, 04:45 AM
The lie never would have occurred if BJs weren't so damned important to conservatives.

Can we agree on that?
Seems to me that sexual harassment suits were a liberal development in the law.

Remember when a boorish superior imposing his man-meat on the steno pool was a criminal to the feminists?

Baby Lee
11-02-2004, 04:50 AM
And yet another liberal who doesn't know the difference between blowjob and perjury. No wonder our public school systems are failing.
ROFL "Strong Enough [to be my man]" by Sheryl Crow takes on a whole new meaning.

"Lie to me. . . I promise, I'll believe."

It's asking for a blowjob!!!!!

Baby Lee
11-02-2004, 04:52 AM
You think the editor of the Atlantic is going to allow a libel suit, or the tarnishing of his magazine's reputation?

We aren't talking about the National Inquirer, here...nor are we discussing a partisan rag like the Nation, or National Review.
Or the New York Times, or 60 Minutes.

Cochise
11-02-2004, 05:32 AM
It isn't the editor, it is an unnamed source who stated he worked with Rove. The fault could be Rove's, it could be the source, or it could be Atlantic - fact is there is no proof and just your "crocodile tears" to blame him.

You know, I always hear that this Rove is some kind of legendary campaigner but every time I see the libs give him credit for doing something it's innuendo. It's always "a source said that Rove..." or some kooky nonsense that is basically a rumor or something.

KCWolfman
11-02-2004, 09:15 AM
Forget it. He will excuse Rove no matter what. If it was McAulliffe on the other hand, KCW would be screaming...
Read back, genius. I stated if Rove were guilty, it was a childish move.

KCWolfman
11-02-2004, 09:16 AM
You know, I always hear that this Rove is some kind of legendary campaigner but every time I see the libs give him credit for doing something it's innuendo. It's always "a source said that Rove..." or some kooky nonsense that is basically a rumor or something.
Exactly, but extremists like Hel'n and MPM want the majority to believe he is some sort of Dr. Evil without any proof whatsoever.

Amnorix
11-02-2004, 09:28 AM
Seriously, if anyone falls for that kind of crap, should they really be allowed to vote?

So you're forgiving these presumably illegal and definitely immoral antics because they might work.

That's an interesting line of thought... Insane and a complete perversion of logic, but interesting.

Amnorix
11-02-2004, 09:36 AM
And yet another liberal who doesn't know the difference between blowjob and perjury. No wonder our public school systems are failing.

Whether it was perjury or not, it was a joke from the gitgo, and the American public, in overwhelming numbers, recognized that fact.

Hel'n
11-02-2004, 10:14 AM
Exactly, but extremists like Hel'n and MPM want the majority to believe he is some sort of Dr. Evil without any proof whatsoever.

I am now an extremist? For wanting you to be fair? That sounds like something the President of France would say...

Baby Lee
11-02-2004, 10:15 AM
Whether it was perjury or not, it was a joke from the gitgo, and the American public, in overwhelming numbers, recognized that fact.
Remember when a boorish superior imposing his man-meat on the steno pool was a criminal to the feminists?

Brock
11-02-2004, 10:16 AM
I am now an extremist? For wanting you to be fair? That sounds like something the President of France would say...

No, you are an extremist because you are an extremist.