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ChiTown
11-03-2004, 11:06 AM
the Dems find a moderate Midwest/Southern candidate (ala Clinton), they will not dismantle a Republican candidate. President Bush was absolutely primed for the taking in this election, and the Dems chose the #1 Liberal from one of the most Liberal states to be 'their guy". IMHO, at that point, this thing was over after the Democratic Primary was completed. As big of a whack job as Howard Dean is, he at least would have given the Dem's some issues to rally around, and a guy that was firm in his beliefs. Hell, I still can't tell you what Kerry's platform is, even after hours upon hours of reading, watching and listening. The only platform I saw Kerry run on, was that he was "not George Bush, so vote for me".

It was a horribly weak showing by the DNP. I hope they get their $hit wired and get back in touch with their constituents. It's obvious, that they have completely lost touch. Now, I REALLY hope that we can stop all this partisan bull$hit that we have endured since the primaries and get back to taking care of the real issues that our great country faces, especially our economy.

memyselfI
11-03-2004, 11:07 AM
Evan Bayh.

Bayh/Biden would be a wonderful ticket.

OldTownChief
11-03-2004, 11:12 AM
Evan Bayh.

Bayh/Biden would be a wonderful ticket.

Watching your feeble attempt to trash threads is almost as fun as last night was.

ChiTown
11-03-2004, 11:17 AM
I actually like Joe Biden, but Evan Bayh is completely worthless. I'm actually shocked at his numbers from last night, but then again, his Rep. opponent was a dip$hit.

I really don't think you'll see guys like Biden on the ticket until thye overhaull the DNC. The problem for the Dems, right now, lies at the head of the DNC. Big, big issues there....

memyselfI
11-03-2004, 11:22 AM
I actually like Joe Biden, but Evan Bayh is completely worthless. I'm actually shocked at his numbers from last night, but then again, his Rep. opponent was a dip$hit.

I really don't think you'll see guys like Biden on the ticket until thye overhaull the DNC. The problem for the Dems, right now, lies at the head of the DNC. Big, big issues there....

I've grown to love Joe Biden. I think since he's run before he won't be considered a viable candidate. Not to mention he'll get the 'East Coast Liberal' title hurled at him and that will send lambs in a frenzy again.

BIG_DADDY
11-03-2004, 11:24 AM
Evan Bayh.

Bayh/Biden would be a wonderful ticket.

That's 4 fvcking years away let's enjoy this moment for what it is ANOTHER BUSH VICTORY AND ANOTHER DEMORAT LOSS!!!!!

OldTownChief
11-03-2004, 11:25 AM
I've grown to love Joe Biden. I think since he's run before he won't be considered a viable candidate. Not to mention he'll get the 'East Coast Liberal' title hurled at him and that will send lambs in a frenzy again.


ROFL Your talking 4 years down the road. What can the Raiders do next year.

memyselfI
11-03-2004, 11:27 AM
ROFL Your talking 4 years down the road. What can the Raiders do next year.

About as much as the Dems???? :hmmm: ;)

Mark M
11-03-2004, 11:34 AM
I've grown to love Joe Biden. ...

KCBidenStalker ... ?

:spock:

As far as the topic goes --
The problems with the Democratic party are well documented: a lack of a clear-cut platform, no true leaders, and too many that are way too far to the left.

The Republicans are dominating because they are well organized, their message is clear and they have some good leaders at the top, even the though the far right seems to still have some influence (but they've gotten quietly).

I just hope like hell that Bush can get his head out of his ass long enough to: fix the freaking economy; reduce the ridiculous deficit he's helped create; and actually punish those responsible for terrorism (i.e. the Saudi's, Bin Laden, Iran, Syria); and be consistent with foreign policy (i.e., if he's going to go on a crusade against evil dictators, it'd be nice not to ignore the issues in many African nations).

Of course, I voted Libertarian, so ...

MM
~~:)

BIG_DADDY
11-03-2004, 11:51 AM
Of course, I voted Libertarian, so ...

MM
~~:)

Me too.

BIG_DADDY
11-03-2004, 11:52 AM
MOF my goal is to get 10 people to become Libertarians before the next election. I got 5 people to vote Libertarian and two people converted to the party since the last election but that just isn't enough.

NewChief
11-03-2004, 11:54 AM
MOF my goal is to get 10 people to become Libertarians before the next election. I got 5 people to vote Libertarian and two people converted to the party since the last election but that just isn't enough.

I like the libertarian party. I just don't think that free market environmentalism works. I worked with a libertarian grassroots organization (Buffalo River Stewardship Foundation) a while ago. It works great at a certain level, and I agree with the principles, but as far as our nation/globe, we need federal protections.

Raiderhader
11-03-2004, 11:55 AM
I actually like Joe Biden, but Evan Bayh is completely worthless. I'm actually shocked at his numbers from last night, but then again, his Rep. opponent was a dip$hit.

I really don't think you'll see guys like Biden on the ticket until thye overhaull the DNC. The problem for the Dems, right now, lies at the head of the DNC. Big, big issues there....


I am the exact opposite, I can't stand Biden. Bayh on the other hand could cause problems for the right if the dems ever start moving away from the fringe.

ChiTown
11-03-2004, 11:57 AM
MOF my goal is to get 10 people to become Libertarians before the next election. I got 5 people to vote Libertarian and two people converted to the party since the last election but that just isn't enough.

I'm a Libertarian, but I could not vote for Badnarik. Until the party get's serious about a candidate, I'm not willing to waste my vote on just anybody. I follow the values of the party, but they could use some better leadership for sure.

Calcountry
11-03-2004, 11:59 AM
I actually like Joe Biden, but Evan Bayh is completely worthless. I'm actually shocked at his numbers from last night, but then again, his Rep. opponent was a dip$hit.

I really don't think you'll see guys like Biden on the ticket until thye overhaull the DNC. The problem for the Dems, right now, lies at the head of the DNC. Big, big issues there....
The problem is not with the DNC, it is with Democrats. They need to take a long look in the mirror.

The media is already saying, "Bush needs to reach out to the Dems".

I love this logic. Why should he? Not only did they call him a liar, they BELIEVE he is a Liar. These are the same people who think it is all right to sleep arround and not live with the living responsibilities growing in their bodies. These are the same people who think that Gays can be "married". These are the same people who think that they should be allowed to take another persons income and wealth by fiat for the "common good".

The American people have spoken, we do not believe as you do and we are the majority. You need to move towards us a little, don't you think? The truth is, we have moved your direction, but the left has moved even farther left to the point of idiotic insane upside down political correctness that cannot be sustained in a Judeo Christian nation.

I am sorry if you don't like that, you are welcome to reach out to us, the winners. Your alternatives are to cry and continue to throw fits and hate. It will get you nothing but bitterness, strife, and more losses at the ballot box.

BIG_DADDY
11-03-2004, 12:00 PM
I'm a Libertarian, but I could not vote for Badnarik. Until the party get's serious about a candidate, I'm not willing to waste my vote on just anybody. I follow the values of the party, but they could use some better leadership for sure.

They need more money and need to get a REAL candidate for sure. My vote doesn't count in THe People's Republic of California so my vote was a protest vote.

Cochise
11-03-2004, 12:04 PM
Please keep nominating these East Coast Limosuine liberals. They taste like chicken.

memyselfI
11-03-2004, 12:04 PM
The problem is not with the DNC, it is with

The American people have spoken, we do not believe as you do and we are the majority. You need to move towards us a little, don't you think? The truth is, we have moved your direction, but the left has moved even farther left to the point of idiotic insane upside down political correctness that cannot be sustained in a Judeo Christian nation.

I am sorry if you don't like that, you are welcome to reach out to us, the winners. Your alternatives are to cry and continue to throw fits and hate. It will get you nothing but bitterness, strife, and more losses at the ballot box.

This post is the exact reason why I will not give DUHbya my support. As long as he's catering to folks like this then divided we fall.

And such arrogance will culminate in your defeat just as you claim it has with the Dems.

HC_Chief
11-03-2004, 12:09 PM
These are the same people who think that Gays can be "married".

I still think this is a non-issue and a complete waste of time. Legislating what occurs in the bedroom is bullshit.... it's one of the things that turns people away from the RNP. Why would we waste time, energy and tax dollars on such an innocuous issue? It's a frigging diversion of energy that could be spent in MUCH more worthwhile channels: WoT, decreasing unemployment, <i>cutting federal spending</i>, etc. Quit dicking around with legislated morality! :grr:

Calcountry
11-03-2004, 12:27 PM
I actually like Joe Biden, but Evan Bayh is completely worthless. I'm actually shocked at his numbers from last night, but then again, his Rep. opponent was a dip$hit.

I really don't think you'll see guys like Biden on the ticket until thye overhaull the DNC. The problem for the Dems, right now, lies at the head of the DNC. Big, big issues there....
The problem is not with the DNC, it is with Democrats. They need to take a long look in the mirror.

The media is already saying, "Bush needs to reach out to the Dems".

I love this logic. Why should he? Not only did they call him a liar, they BELIEVE he is a Liar. These are the same people who think it is all right to sleep arround and not live with the living responsibilities growing in their bodies. These are the same people who think that Gays can be "married". These are the same people who think that they should be allowed to take another persons income and wealth by fiat for the "common good".

The American people have spoken, we do not believe as you do and we are the majority. You need to move towards us a little, don't you think? The truth is, we have moved your direction, but the left has moved even farther left to the point of idiotic insane upside down political correctness that cannot be sustained in a Judeo Christian nation.

I am sorry if you don't like that, you are welcome to reach out to us, the winners. Your alternatives are to cry and continue to throw fits and hate. It will get you nothing but bitterness, strife, and more losses at the ballot box.

Mark M
11-03-2004, 12:32 PM
... that cannot be sustained in a Judeo Christian nation ...


And there, in a nutshell, is the problem people have with the Republicans -- they want to legislate THEIR morality and THEIR religous beliefs on everyone else.

Hate to break this to you, but not everyone should be forced to believe the what you believe ... at least not in a free society. That's why there's a separation of church and state. Unfortunately, the Repubs are bringing it in the back door (pun acknowledged, not intended) by legislating their so-called morality.

If you're against gay marriage, then don't marry a gay person. Othewise, it doesn't affect you or anyone else.

It's so pathetic as to be ridiculous ...

MM
~~:shake:

memyselfI
11-03-2004, 12:35 PM
And there, in a nutshell, is the problem people have with the Republicans -- they want to legislate THEIR morality and THEIR religous beliefs on everyone else.

Hate to break this to you, but not everyone should be forced to believe the what you believe ... at least not in a free society. That's why there's a separation of church and state. Unfortunately, the Repubs are bringing it in the back door (pun acknowledged, not intended) by legislating their so-called morality.

If you're against gay marriage, then don't marry a gay person. Othewise, it doesn't affect you or anyone else.

It's so pathetic as to be ridiculous ...

MM
~~:shake:

and it will be their ruin...

not soon enough for my taste but soon.

Raiderhader
11-03-2004, 01:02 PM
And there, in a nutshell, is the problem people have with the Republicans -- they want to legislate THEIR morality and THEIR religous beliefs on everyone else.



I am so sick of this argument. What is your side trying to accomplish? You are trying to legislate your beliefs. It cuts both ways. That is what this entire game is all about, who gets to dictate the what our society is going to be like (and right now your side's ideals are being rejected).

Of course we are trying to legislate our morality on society, just as your side is doing the same damn thing. This is a pointless, worthless argument. And I would appreciate it if your side would drop it, because it is nothing more than a great big "DUH!" statement. And it is hypocritical to suggest that we are the only one's who are doing it.

Mark M
11-03-2004, 01:03 PM
and it will be their ruin...

not soon enough for my taste but soon.

I have no desire for them to be ruined -- far from it. I think that almost all beliefs have a place in American society. There are obvious exceptions, of course, such as fanatacism, extremism, et al.

It just bothers me that some think that their beliefs should be superior to all others. When that happens, independent thought and individuality get crushed.

MM
~~:shake:

NewChief
11-03-2004, 01:04 PM
I am so sick of this argument. What is your side trying to accomplish? You are trying to legislate your beliefs. It cuts both ways. That is what this entire game is all about, who gets to dictate the what our society is going to be like (and right now your side's ideals are being rejected).

Of course we are trying to legislate our morality on society, just as your side is doing the same damn thing. This is a pointless, worthless argument. And I would appreciate it if your side would drop it, because it is nothing more than a great big "DUH!" statement. And it is hypocritical to suggest that we are the only one's who are doing it.

Mark M is a libertarian.

Mark M
11-03-2004, 01:06 PM
I am so sick of this argument. What is your side trying to accomplish? You are trying to legislate your beliefs. It cuts both ways. That is what this entire game is all about, who gets to dictate the what our society is going to be like (and right now your side's ideals are being rejected).

Of course we are trying to legislate our morality on society, just as your side is doing the same damn thing. This is a pointless, worthless argument. And I would appreciate it if your side would drop it, because it is nothing more than a great big "DUH!" statement. And it is hypocritical to suggest that we are the only one's who are doing it.
Easy there, Scooter ... it's not MY side.

Well, unless you consider "my" side to be the one that doesn't give a rats hairy f**king ass what others do in the privacy of their own homes or whom they should fall in love with ... then I guess it is. :p

IMHO, the government should keep its nose out of everything except defending the country, putting out fires and maintaining the police, collecting the minimum amount of taxes needed to sustain basic operations, and fixing the roads/sewers, etc.

Other than those basic things, it's none of their f**king business what I do as long as it ain't hurting anyone else.

MM
~~:p

Raiderhader
11-03-2004, 01:06 PM
Mark M is a libertarian.



Uh, yeah, ok.....

Raiderhader
11-03-2004, 01:07 PM
Easy there, Scooter ... it's not MY side.

Well, unless you consider "my" side to be the one that doesn't give a rats hairy f**king ass what others do in the privacy of their own homes or whom they should fall in love with ... then I guess it is.

MM
~~:p


Is that not the side that opposes my side?

Cochise
11-03-2004, 01:08 PM
And there, in a nutshell, is the problem people have with the Republicans -- they want to legislate THEIR morality and THEIR religous beliefs on everyone else.
:

What law is in existence that was not first a moral issue?

Mark M
11-03-2004, 01:09 PM
Is that not the side that opposes my side?

You do realize that there are more than two sides, don't you?

Life ain't always black and white.

MM
~~:shrug:

Raiderhader
11-03-2004, 01:10 PM
You do realize that there are more than two sides, don't you?

Life ain't always black and white.

MM
~~:shrug:


What does that have to do with my point? Does your side oppose my side or not?

Mark M
11-03-2004, 01:11 PM
What law is in existence that was not first a moral issue?

Hmmm ... I'd have to say speed limits.

Or are you suggesting that just because I choose to do 80 mph on the highway means I'm immoral?

MM
~~:)

Mark M
11-03-2004, 01:12 PM
What does that have to do with my point? Does your side oppose my side or not?

I'd rather work WITH your side instead of making everything a battle.

It's called collaboration.

MM
~~:hmmm:

Cochise
11-03-2004, 01:14 PM
Hmmm ... I'd have to say speed limits.

Or are you suggesting that just because I choose to do 80 mph on the highway means I'm immoral?

MM
~~:)

No. Isn't it a moral issue if you recklessly endanger others? Aren't we legislating that because it's wrong?

Anyway, the point is, that every law or almost every law in existence exists to settle a moral issue.

Mark M
11-03-2004, 01:19 PM
No. Isn't it a moral issue if you recklessly endanger others? Aren't we legislating that because it's wrong?

Me going 80mph in the left lane is much, MUCH less reckless than the dumbass doing 55 in the left lane.

Anyway, the point is, that every law or almost every law in existence exists to settle a moral issue.
You are correct.

But there is a difference between basic human morality (i.e. killing another person is wrong), and more religous-based morality (i.e. sex issues that don't deal with rape or children).

As KCWolfman posted in another thread, civil unions, instead of marraiges, would be the solution to the gay marraige issue.

Unfortunately, there are many on the far right who think even that is too much. This, of course, ignores the fact that, in this case at least, what two people do doesn't affect pretty much anyone else.

Well, lunch is over, so I gotta run. I'll try to check back in later.

MM
~~:)

Raiderhader
11-03-2004, 01:20 PM
I'd rather work WITH your side instead of making everything a battle.

It's called collaboration.

MM
~~:hmmm:


You are avoiding the question: is your side one of the sides that opposes my side? I wouldn't make such a big deal out of this if you hadn't tried to say that you were not part of the side that oppeses my beliefs. The statement was as assanine as the first one I responded to.


As to what you did say here, I agree, c'mon over and talk to us and we will see if your side has anything of value that we would like to incorporate into our platform.

Mark M
11-03-2004, 01:38 PM
You are avoiding the question: is your side one of the sides that opposes my side? I wouldn't make such a big deal out of this if you hadn't tried to say that you were not part of the side that oppeses my beliefs. The statement was as assanine as the first one I responded to.

I am not avoiding the question. I've answered it -- I do not oppose your side, I want to find common ground with it. There are some things about your side that I disagree with, but that doesn't mean that I think it has no value or is the enemy.

The problem is that you see everything as A/B, Black/White, With us/Against Us. It's actually a very narrow view of how the world works. Perhaps as you get older you'll realize this.

MM
~~:shrug:

Raiderhader
11-03-2004, 02:02 PM
I am not avoiding the question. I've answered it -- I do not oppose your side, I want to find common ground with it.

You do to oppose my side, if not in entirity than at least partially. And in the moral issues your views tend to oppose mine. This is nothing more than another non-answer.

There are some things about your side that I disagree with, but that doesn't mean that I think it has no value or is the enemy.

Then in some areas you are on the opposing side of me. Wow, we finally settle that.

Certain issues are simply more important to some than to others. I do see certain views to be dangerous to our country, as well as I am sure you do as well.

The problem is that you see everything as A/B, Black/White, With us/Against Us. It's actually a very narrow view of how the world works. Perhaps as you get older you'll realize this.

MM
~~:shrug:

When my side has the majority everywhere, I can afford to have the with us or against us approach and force your side to compromise with us. The left did the same thing when they had a monopoly on the power. To the winner goes the spoils. You might as well learn to accept this, it is an age old tradition. If you want my side to compromise with your side, then get the majority of the people to see things your way and win some elections.

redbrian
11-03-2004, 02:09 PM
This post is the exact reason why I will not give DUHbya my support. 4.

You know something tells he won't even know or lose any sleep over that.

redbrian
11-03-2004, 02:11 PM
And there, in a nutshell, is the problem people have with the Republicans -- they want to legislate THEIR morality and THEIR religous beliefs on everyone else.

Hate to break this to you, but not everyone should be forced to believe the what you believe ... at least not in a free society. That's why there's a separation of church and state. Unfortunately, the Repubs are bringing it in the back door (pun acknowledged, not intended) by legislating their so-called morality.

If you're against gay marriage, then don't marry a gay person. Othewise, it doesn't affect you or anyone else.

It's so pathetic as to be ridiculous ...

MM
~~:shake:

but everyone should be forced your morality and beliefs........yes I see how this works.

Mark M
11-03-2004, 02:12 PM
... lots of stuff ...
The fact is, Jamie, you have an incredibly narrow and simplistic view of the world. And some day it may come back to haunt you.

I don't say that to be mean or to start a fight ... I say it from experience.

MM
~~:)

Mark M
11-03-2004, 02:25 PM
but everyone should be forced your morality and beliefs........yes I see how this works.

Actually, I'd perfer to let everyone decide what's right FOR THEM, rather than telling others how to live their life.

Call me crazy ...

MM
~~:shrug:

Raiderhader
11-03-2004, 02:34 PM
The fact is, Jamie, you have an incredibly narrow and simplistic view of the world. And some day it may come back to haunt you.

I don't say that to be mean or to start a fight ... I say it from experience.

MM
~~:)


Says the person on the losing side. Right now my "narrow and simplistic view of the world" has the power in the country. Obviously my "narrow and simplistic" views are not haunting me or my side, but winning the day, as opposed to the broad mindedness of your side getting its ass kicked.

I will never regret the fact that I have certain morals and principles that guide my life, even if some day they should mean my life (I mean in an inquisition sort of way). They are who I am. And just as I am not concerned with our country winning a HS popularity contest in the world in sake of our principles, neither am I concerned about winning a HS popularity contest with my fellow man in sake of my principles. My beliefs are who I am, to be untrue to them is to be untrue to myself.


And besides, it is only close minded people such as yourself who truly believe that I am close minded.

Mark M
11-03-2004, 02:52 PM
Says the person on the losing side. Right now my "narrow and simplistic view of the world" has the power in the country. Obviously my "narrow and simplistic" views are not haunting me or my side, but winning the day, as opposed to the broad mindedness of your side getting its ass kicked.

Wow ... you're such a classy winner. :rolleyes:

I will never regret the fact that I have certain morals and principles that guide my life, even if some day they should mean my life (I mean in an inquisition sort of way). They are who I am. And just as I am not concerned with our country winning a HS popularity contest in the world in sake of our principles, neither am I concerned about winning a HS popularity contest with my fellow man in sake of my principles. My beliefs are who I am, to be untrue to them is to be untrue to myself.
And god bless you for that. :thumb: It's too bad, however, that you don't realize that you can keep your principles and beliefs while working toward mutually beneficial arrangements with those that think differently than you do.

And besides, it is only close minded people such as yourself who truly believe that I am close minded.
Sorry, but my experience with you --both in person and on this board -- proves otherwise.

MM
~~:)

Raiderhader
11-03-2004, 03:14 PM
Wow ... you're such a classy winner. :rolleyes:

Telling like it is is being un-classy?

And god bless you for that. :thumb: It's too bad, however, that you don't realize that you can keep your principles and beliefs while working toward mutually beneficial arrangements with those that think differently than you do.

Some principles and beliefs, sure. But not all of them. We aren't talking about wether or not the national ice cream should be chocolate or vanilla, we are talking about issues that have a great impact on the nation.

Should the Patriots be forced share their SB trophy with the Panthers in an effort to make everyone a winner? Especially since the Panthers came so close to winning themselves? Of course not. And neither should a party be forced compromise their principles in any fashion when they have been given a nation wide victory and mandate. If one truly believes that the principles they hold dear are the correct ones, then they should not intentionally dilute those principles if they are not forced to. That is assanine. I believe the country would be much better off by doing away with the income tax and going to a national sales tax. Now should I ever be in a position to do something about that, and my party has control of the system, am I supposed to compromise on the issue simply for the sake of being "nice" to the losers? You are in essence asking a SB winning team to share its' trophy with the team it beat. This is a ridiculous conversation to even be having. I would not demand your side share the spoils of the war if your side should take a monopoly on the government. I would not beg for handouts from your side, I would go and try to mount a counter offensive to win back the power to implement my ideals.

Sorry, but my experience with you --both in person and on this board -- proves otherwise.

MM
~~:)

Sorry, but you have just proven that you are the one with the narrow and simplistic view, of me. It is narrow and simplistic to say that my opions are narrow and simplistic simply because you do not agree with them. So much for broad mindedness and tolerance, huh?

BTW, do you know where I satnd on the drug legalization issue?