Congratulations to republicans everywhere.

[penchief]

The republican machine thorougly kicked ass on Tuesday. There is no doubt they are formidable. I wish I could savor victory with you but I cannot. I will continue to enjoy my life even though I am greatly disillusioned by the direction this country has taken.

I do not consider anyone here as an advisary. I have enjoyed the opportunity to discuss and debate the issues. I do not dislike George Bush as a person. I abhor his tactics and I am offended by his policies, which pull the rug out from underneath the very people that he panders to through prejudice, fear, and moralistic ranting.

The proof is in the details. We will endure another four years of environmental rollbacks, wage rollbacks, and health insurance rollbacks while at the same time experiencing a higher cost of living, education, and health care.

We will continue to see the Trojan Horse method of pushing an agenda by disguising it and clouding it with labels and slogans. We will see four more years of the shameless pursuit of a narrow ideological agenda all in the name of "anti-terrorism."

We will continue to have our liberties and rights whittled away so that government can address those things which we fear most. We will continue to grow the national debt as long as financial institutions profit. We will continue to experience armed conflict as long as it impels the profits that are to be made via the spoils of war.

I am resigned to accept all of this until the retrocons decide to present another of their own as the republican nominee in 2008. If that happens then I hope that more people are willing to hold the current administration accountable for all it has done to undermine the values and traditions that have made this country the greatest on earth.

I no longer have the will nor the reason to argue or debate political issues. The people have spoken. I will continue to discuss my viewpoints on issues that are important but not in a way that casts political blame. I will probably still chime in on the LJ threads, as well ;). I am through with GWBush. We are stuck with him for four more years. It does no good to try to expose him or his ilk anymore. I can accept the results of this election, I just hope that the damage that is done will not be irreversible.

I am grateful to everyone on both sides of the aisle for allowing me to express my opinions in this forum. Everyone has been great and the level of discourse does say a lot of good about those who have participated. Now that the campaigns are over maybe the meanness and pettiness that seems directly tied to political campaigns cans subside somewhat allowing us all to appreciate the finer things about this country.

I fully expected this outcome for a long time. However, something started to stir within me a few days before November 2. Maybe it was just the hope and optimism that is so difficult to suppress within the progressive's heart. I don't know.

Peace.

[Brock]

We will continue to have our liberties and rights whittled away so that government can address those things which we fear most.

Don't you worry, Bush will continue to protect the 2nd Amendment.

[KCTitus]

Another "he won because people are too stupid to know better" post...gee, thanks. :rolleyes:

[jcl-kcfan2]

And this is different to how the dems do it how?????

[mlyonsd]

I don''t think congratulations are in order. This isn't a game. Contrary to your beliefs conservatives want the same for you as we want for ourselves.

[penchief]

Another "he won because people are too stupid to know better" post...gee, thanks. :rolleyes:

Not at all. I don't blame people for voting their emotions. I blame those who manipulate the voter's emotions which does a great disservice to the issues. Democrats are as guilty as anyone.

I would even go one step further. Ralph Nader might be right. The democratic party has done a great disservice to the issues that they are supposed to champion. The issues of humankind have suffered at the hands of greed. The democratic party has done such a poor job framing those issues in a way that can rise above the bluster of self-interest that they have proven themselves unworthy as the torch-bearers of progress. The fact that we have re-elected a president better suited for the late ninteenth, early twentieth century is proof enough of that.

Progressive political thought in this country needs new, more thoughtful, less ideological leadership to fight the forces of avarice and aggression that impel the right-wing in this country.

[penchief]

I don''t think congratulations are in order. This isn't a game. Contrary to your beliefs conservatives want the same for you as we want for ourselves.

I agree, it isn't a game. Yet, when winning becomes more important than the issues that matter or even the truth it does seem like a game.

[Donger]

Not at all. I don't blame people for voting their emotions. I blame those who manipulate the voter's emotions which does a great disservice to the issues.

Sorry to see that you've jumped on the bandwagon, penchief.

[mlyonsd]

I agree, it isn't a game. Yet, when winning becomes more important than the issues that matter or even the truth it does seem like a game.

I agree with that.

[KCTitus]

Not at all. I don't blame people for voting their emotions. I blame those who manipulate the voter's emotions which does a great disservice to the issues. Democrats are as guilty as anyone.

I would even go one step further. Ralph Nader might be right. The democratic party has done a great disservice to the issues that they are supposed to champion. The issues of humankind have suffered at the hands of greed. The democratic party has done such a poor job framing those issues in a way that can rise above the bluster of self-interest that they have proven themselves unworthy as the torch-bearers of progress. The fact that we have re-elected a president better suited for the late ninteenth, early twentieth century is proof enough of that.

Progressive political thought in this country needs new, more thoughtful, less ideological leadership to fight the forces of avarice and aggressiveness that impels the right-wing in this country.

Again, you may think people vote their emotions, I have faith that the American people vote the issues that are important to them. The DNC hasnt been the party of progress for over 30 years...they are the defenders of the status quo of the dependency class. Americans know this and they cant hide it in class envy mantras and scare tactics anymore.

You're right, they do need to do two things. Re-evaluate themselves and try being honest with the American people for a change. If you want to raise taxes and increase social welfare programs, trumpet it, dont deny it.

[penchief]

Sorry to see that you've jumped on the bandwagon, penchief.

I'm on no bandwagon Donger. I really am ready to move on. I was in 2000, as well. Disbelief at the conduct and policies of this president within 6 months of taking office was what brought me out of my chair the first time around.

Nothing this president will do in the future can surprise me the way that it did after 2000. I know what we have and it is useless to fight it now because everyone knows what we have. Some are willing to make that sacrifice. I am not but I have no choice at this point. The people will get what they have asked for. Some will like it and some will not. Many won't care what happens between now and 2008.....even if it is bad policy.

[penchief]

Again, you may think people vote their emotions, I have faith that the American people vote the issues that are important to them. The DNC hasnt been the party of progress for over 30 years...they are the defenders of the status quo of the dependency class. Americans know this and they cant hide it in class envy mantras and scare tactics anymore.

You're right, they do need to do two things. Re-evaluate themselves and try being honest with the American people for a change. If you want to raise taxes and increase social welfare programs, trumpet it, dont deny it.

You call it the dependency class, I call it a level playing field. I don't want anything that I didn't earn but I also don't think it is right that privelige allows for the further entrenchment of power, manipulation, and greed at the expense of the most vulnerable.

There is a gigantic power-usurpation ongoing in this country and I just hope that the trend is irreversible by the time 2008 gets here because as you have heard the neo-cons say, "we believe power should be used to acquire more power."

All one has to do is look at the declining jobs, wages, benefits, health care, environmental conditions, cost of education, etc. to realize that there is a real net loss in quality of life issues for the majority of Americans while financial institutions, the energy industry, insurance industry, pharmaceutical industry, and health care industry benefit in spades. I just hope that someday America decides it is time to reverse that trend.

Humanity has to regulate the forces of greed without muzzling ingenuity if true progress can be expected.

[KCTitus]

You call it the dependency class, I call it a level playing field. I don't want anything that I didn't earn but I also don't think it is right that privelige allows for the further entrenchment of power, manipulation, and greed at the expense of the most vulnerable.

Actually, you are bemoaning the actual destruction of that right. The American people understand and have repudiated those elites that life the life of privilege on the backs of the most vulnerable.

All one has to do is look at the declining jobs, wages, benefits, health care, environmental conditions, cost of education, etc. to realize that there is a real net loss in quality of life issues for the majority of Americans while financial institutions, the energy industry, insurance industry, pharmaceutical industry, and health care industry benefit in spades.

The mantras dont work...this is your problem. All that stuff you said is false and the Americans see through it. Im sorry you're stuck in that mire.

[penchief]

Actually, you are bemoaning the actual destruction of that right. The American people understand and have repudiated those elites that life the life of privilege on the backs of the most vulnerable.



The mantras dont work...this is your problem. All that stuff you said is false and the Americans see through it. Im sorry you're stuck in that mire.

At the risk of being contrary, KC, you are wrong. Those issues are real and tangible. I see them every day. I have seen the affects of Bush policy first-hand. When one accepts broad generalizations and emotional slogans in place of policy details and the real affect those policies have on society, that is when a person is stuck in mire.

[KCTitus]

At the risk of being contrary, KC, you are wrong. Those issues are real and tangible. I see them every day. I have seen the affects of Bush policy first-hand. When one accepts broad generalizations and emotional slogans in place of policy details and the real affect those policies have on society, that is when a person is stuck in mire.

You can be contrary all you want, it's fine with me...much like the 'war on drugs' the war on poverty has also failed, miserably.

Im not the one accepting broad generalizations or emotional slogans, rather, you posted that stuff. Ive allways found it fascinating the pathos of projecting one's actions on the 'opposition'.

[penchief]

You can be contrary all you want, it's fine with me...much like the 'war on drugs' the war on poverty has also failed, miserably.

Im not the one accepting broad generalizations or emotional slogans, rather, you posted that stuff. Ive allways found it fascinating the pathos of projecting one's actions on the 'opposition'.

Please don't use psychological mumbo jumbo on me. The republican party gets elected by applying broad generalizations, whittling every issue down to an either/or moral judgment and belittling their opponent through condescension and dishonest personal attacks.

Discussing the details of issues is the last thing they want to do.

[KCTitus]

Please don't use psychological mumbo jumbo on me. The republican party gets elected by applying broad generalizations, whittling every issue down to an either/or moral judgment and belittling their opponent through condescension and dishonest personal attacks.

Discussing the details of issues is the last thing they want to do.

Actually, you've got it backwards. As defenders of the status quo, democrats refuse to discuss issues and resort to the tactics you say you abhor but actually parrot multiple times on this thread.

[penchief]

Actually, you've got it backwards. As defenders of the status quo, democrats refuse to discuss issues and resort to the tactics you say you abhor but actually parrot multiple times on this thread.

Defending the rights of the powerful to pursue the profit motive at the expense of humanity has been the "status quo" forever. Progress has only been made when first the people, then the government decides that the exploitation of America's human and natural resources for the sake of greed is not what America should stand for.

While you think that democrats are holding on to the welfare state (marginally true) I think the policies of the neo-cons (hardly conservative) take us back to a class mentality that existed before the social progresses of the twentieth century (all of which were impelled by liberalism/progressivism and resisted by so-called conservativism).

Is the progress you speak of the freedom for the ownership class to use their wealth and power to exploit the marketplace and the general welfare of the people soley for the purpose of maximizing profit? It seems to me they want complete freedom from regulation, responsibility, or accountability. And that is exactly where it looks like we are headed.

[MadProphetMargin]

Don't you worry, Bush will continue to protect the 2nd Amendment.

Too bad about all the other ones.

[SBK]

Here's the problem. The right sees this country for what it is, CAPITALIST. The left for some reason sees this as SOCIALIST.

All these problems that the left sees, all of us say are lies and people see right thru them. I don't think the left (not leaders but regular folks) are lying when they say that they see this. That's because all of these are problems for a socialist country. Which brings us back to this not being a socialist country, and capitalist policies are what work.

As far as jobs and the declining way of life, mines never been better, and it's only gonna get better from here. Bush's business and taxation policies are dead on, and making life around here great for all but the socialists apparently.

[SBK]

Too bad about all the other ones.

ROFL

That's a funny joke dude!

[stevieray]

Stop saying you've moved on when you can't even reply in your own thread without lobbing insults.

[KCTitus]

Defending the rights of the powerful to pursue the profit motive at the expense of humanity has been the "status quo" forever. Progress has only been made when first the people, then the government decides that the exploitation of America's human and natural resources for the sake of greed is not what America should stand for.

While you think that democrats are holding on to the welfare state (marginally true) I think the policies of the neo-cons (hardly conservative) take us back to a class mentality that existed before the social progresses of the twentieth century (all of which were impelled by liberalism/progressivism and resisted by so-called conservativism).

Is the progress you speak of the freedom for the ownership class to use their wealth and power to exploit the marketplace and the general welfare of the people soley for the purpose of maximizing profit? It seems to me they want complete freedom from regulation, responsibility, or accountability. And that is exactly where it looks like we are headed.

It's obvious, you have never owned a business, worked in a small business or even talked with an entreprenuer...

All this tripe you typed is straight out of some communist/socialist economics text book. It's BS and what's worse, while you think that makes you sound smart, it really is just plain sad that you'd recite that stuff sans any clue of reality.

No one is advocating 'no regulation', it's clear a certain amount must exist along with anti trust legislation.

Bottom line, capitalism works--every time and socialism fails--every time.

[penchief]

It's obvious, you have never owned a business, worked in a small business or even talked with an entreprenuer...

All this tripe you typed is straight out of some communist/socialist economics text book. It's BS and what's worse, while you think that makes you sound smart, it really is just plain sad that you'd recite that stuff sans any clue of reality.

No one is advocating 'no regulation', it's clear a certain amount must exist along with anti trust legislation.

Bottom line, capitalism works--every time and socialism fails--every time.

Well, you are wrong about me AND deregulation is one of the centerpieces of the right-wing agenda.

[HC_Chief]

Well, you are wrong about me AND deregulation is one of the centerpieces of the right-wing agenda.

That would be because of the current over-regulation of business. Deregulation does not mean 'no regulation'; it means a reduction in the obstacles GOVERNMENT puts in the way of private-sctor businesses.

[KCTitus]

Well, you are wrong about me AND deregulation is one of the centerpieces of the right-wing agenda.

What HC said about the deregulation issue.

As far as you, yes you are correct. I dont know you, but I assume that what you type is what you believe and it's not just rote. Im not sure which is worse, to be honest, but anyone who types that stuff has no real firm grip on realities of business regardles.

I went to college and I was 'taught' and read the same stuff you repeat. Unfortunately for them, I was already in the business world and had a firm grip on reality.

[MadProphetMargin]

That would be because of the current over-regulation of business.

:spock:

[Iowanian]

All one has to do is look at the declining jobs, wages, benefits, health care, environmental conditions, cost of education, etc. to realize that there is a real net loss in quality of life issues for the majority of Americans while financial institutions, the energy industry, insurance industry, pharmaceutical industry, and health care industry benefit in spades. I just hope that someday America decides it is time to reverse that trend.

Humanity has to regulate the forces of greed without muzzling ingenuity if true progress can be expected.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137691,00.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6405260/


337,000 new jobs added in October............Bush's win sparked a drop in oil prices and big gains in the Stock market, interest rates are very low, and home ownership is at an alltime high.......

I really enjoy the arguements that Republicans are wealthy, power grubbing elitist snobs who care about noone but themselves, unless they are the voter, and then they are just an uneducated, ignortant, brainwashed Hillbilly.

[Iowanian]

Too bad about all the other ones.

List the things you Can't do now, that you COUlD do 4 years ago.
What Rights have you lost?

[MadProphetMargin]

List the things you Can't do now, that you COUlD do 4 years ago.
What Rights have you lost?

To have my papers and effects protected from unreasonable search and siezure.

To have writ of habeas corpus, even if the president doesn't really like it.

To have access to an attorney, if accused of a crime.

Etc

Once these rights are denied to any citizen, for any reason, they stop existing as rights, and become mere privelege.

[Iowanian]

Which of those have you been denied?

When did the Swat team storm your house in the night, sneak in and search for DNA samples on your playboy collection, or hold you on a desert Island without an attorney?

[MadProphetMargin]

Which of those have you been denied?

When did the Swat team storm your house in the night, sneak in and search for DNA samples on your playboy collection, or hold you on a desert Island without an attorney?

Missed the point, didn't you, Bubba.

Read the last line again.

[HC_Chief]

Iowanian = stupid redneck inbred midwestern 'Bubba'.

[Mr. Kotter]

...Etc

Once these rights are denied to any citizen, for any reason, they stop existing as rights, and become mere privelege.

The law makes distinctions between CITIZENS and non-citizens as I recall, yes? :hmmm:

[MadProphetMargin]

The law makes distinctions between CITIZENS and non-citizens as I recall, yes? :hmmm:

Which law? The 4th amendment? Nope.

The 5th? Nope.

Habeas corpus? Nope.

In fact, none of the bill of rights is restricted to American citizens...they are only restricted in jurisdiction.

[Iowanian]

Missed the point, didn't you, Bubba.

Read the last line again.

Sally,
I read it, I comprehend it, but I think its Bovine feces.

[MadProphetMargin]

Sally,
I read it, I comprehend it, but I think its Bovine feces.


What? That rights which can be denied in the name of expedience are mere privelege?

Okay. But we should start calling it the Bill of Favors, just for accuracy's sake.

[Iowanian]

how many non-terrorist American Citizens have been affected?

A couple of names would be great..........If Jose Padilla is the only one you can come up with....save the bandwith.

[MadProphetMargin]

how many non-terrorist American Citizens have been affected?


So, being accused of terrorism voids your rights?

Oddly enough, I don't see anything in the constitution about the severity of the crime being a reason to do that.

[Iowanian]

Only a law student or Lawyer..................

[MadProphetMargin]

Only a law student or Lawyer..................


???

[KCTitus]

It's good to know that MPM doesnt feel the 'seriousness of the charge' is no longer a good enough for a conviction. that voids about 98% of the lefts mantra.

[MadProphetMargin]

It's good to know that MPM doesnt feel the 'seriousness of the charge' is no longer a good enough for a conviction. that voids about 98% of the lefts mantra.

The seriousness of the charge NEVER warrants a conviction.

That's what we have trials for.

Which mantra are you referring to? I may be wrong, but the only people I see wanting to hold people without trial are on the right wing.