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View Full Version : Gunther has been more of a liability than an asset to the organization


shaneo69
11-17-2004, 01:36 PM
Like many of you, I was doing cartwheels last winter when Gunther was re-hired as DC. Now, I've come to the realization that, while not intentional, he has played a key role in the decline of the organization since 1998.

After Marty quit, CP had two key decisions to make. He had to hire a new head coach, and he had to decide who the Chiefs QB would be. He could've spent the big bucks and gone after a proven head coach like George Seifert. He could've spent more big bucks and re-signed Rich Gannon. But Peterson decided to hire a guy like Gunther, who wouldn't command a big salary, and who could be bullied into a) going with Grbac at QB since he was already signed to starter's money, and b) keeping the same stooges as assistant coaches, since they were still under contract. Gunther was just happy to be head coach and didn't care what kind of crappy conditions he was being subjected to, because he thought he was a good enough coach to overcome it. It turned out that he was not good enough to overcome Elvis' many weaknesses, the stooges' ineptness, and the death of Derrick Thomas.

Fast forward to 2004. Gunther loved KC, the Chiefs fans, and Carl and Lamar. He was so excited to be coming back as a hero that he agreed to DV's caveat that he wasn't going to be getting any help from free agency. We heard DV use the "cashed out" excuse, but my suspicions are that he a) didn't want to get rid of any of his beloved players, and b) he didn't want to give Gunther any more help than what GRob had to work with. And after thinking that his coaching ability could overcome any obstacles, Gunther has proven once again that he can't work miracles.

In both situations, Gunther should've stood up and made realistic demands, but I think he was too insecure to do so. Of course, had he done that, he probably wouldn't have gotten the Head Coaching job in '99 or the DC job in '04.

Hopefully, he will stand up this offseason and demand changes in defensive personnel, or we will be going through the same crap next year.

Tuckdaddy
11-17-2004, 01:55 PM
He struggled as a head coach with the pissy poor attitude players he was left by Marty. He yelled and screamed too much but since then he has changed. At practice and all reports say that he still has plenty of fire but keeps it on lock when he should. He learned from his experience. He's a good DC and will do better next year. He can't do any worse with the players we have.

el borracho
11-17-2004, 01:56 PM
Nothing personal against you, shaneo69, but I disagree with just about everything you just said.

Now, I've come to the realization that, while not intentional, he has played a key role in the decline of the organization since 1998.
You blame Gunther for the years he was not even here? That makes no sense.

After Marty quit, CP had two key decisions to make. He had to hire a new head coach, and he had to decide who the Chiefs QB would be. He could've spent the big bucks and gone after a proven head coach like George Seifert. He could've spent more big bucks and re-signed Rich Gannon. But Peterson decided to hire a guy like Gunther, who wouldn't command a big salary.
You blame Gunther for Peterson's decisions? That makes no sense

and who could be bullied into a) going with Grbac at QB since he was already signed to starter's money, and b) keeping the same stooges as assistant coaches, since they were still under contract.
Grbac was not an elite qb, but he was not the biggest problem we had. You are correct about the assistants being horrible.

Gunther was just happy to be head coach and didn't care what kind of crappy conditions he was being subjected to, because he thought he was a good enough coach to overcome it. It turned out that he was not good enough to overcome Elvis' many weaknesses, the stooges' ineptness, and the death of Derrick Thomas.
Looks like speculation to me. Are you sure about all that? And again, Grbac was not the biggest problem we had. Also, I can't fault Gunther for the death of Derrick Thomas. That would be hard for any coach to overcome.

Fast forward to 2004. Gunther loved KC, the Chiefs fans, and Carl and Lamar. He was so excited to be coming back as a hero that he agreed to DV's caveat that he wasn't going to be getting any help from free agency. We heard DV use the "cashed out" excuse, but my suspicions are that he a) didn't want to get rid of any of his beloved players, and b) he didn't want to give Gunther any more help than what GRob had to work with. And after thinking that his coaching ability could overcome any obstacles, Gunther has proven once again that he can't work miracles.
More speculation on your part and the fact that we were not as active in free agency as you/ me/ whoever might have liked is not the same as no help from free agency. Lional Dalton, arguably our best Dlineman, came in free agency this year.

In both situations, Gunther should've stood up and made realistic demands, but I think he was too insecure to do so. Of course, had he done that, he probably wouldn't have gotten the Head Coaching job in '99 or the DC job in '04.

Hopefully, he will stand up this offseason and demand changes in defensive personnel, or we will be going through the same crap next year.
And more speculation.

Brock
11-17-2004, 01:57 PM
I dunno. Maybe there is a good reason he was never made a DC after his head coaching gig.

KCTitus
11-17-2004, 02:02 PM
I tend to think that the team has never recovered from the death of DT. The defense has never been the same.

Coogs
11-17-2004, 02:04 PM
I tend to think that the team has never recovered from the death of DT. The defense has never been the same.

Wasn't DT on the field during the "Monday Night Meltdown" game?

Coogs
11-17-2004, 02:07 PM
I have had some of the same thoughts as shaneo69. I do think that when it comes time to rebuild the Chiefs, that the house cleaning should include everyone that is involved in the organization right now. Front office all the way down to the person who selects the cheerleaders.

KCTitus
11-17-2004, 02:08 PM
Wasn't DT on the field during the "Monday Night Meltdown" game?

Yep...that was his last season.

Coogs
11-17-2004, 02:09 PM
Yep...that was his last season.

So we could say the defense was in decline while DT was here, not since his death, correct?

Ghostof
11-17-2004, 02:15 PM
Its because Dan Salemua (sp?) went to Seattle and Neil Smith went to the donkeys.


ALso when we released Tracy Simien...and donnie edwards



it will be at least a two years maybe three before we even get a defense back together again. by then the scale will change, our offense will be the joke of the NFL..and we'll have a defense in the top 3.


Has there ever been a team that had a #1 offense and #1 defense?

KCTitus
11-17-2004, 02:18 PM
So we could say the defense was in decline while DT was here, not since his death, correct?

nope...the 98 season was the year that the team gave up on Marty. DT's absence began the gradual slide to the defense KC has today.

Coogs
11-17-2004, 02:22 PM
nope...the 98 season was the year that the team gave up on Marty. DT's absence began the gradual slide to the defense KC has today.

Dang years all run together anymore. I thought the meltdown game was the start of the decline of the defense.

shaneo69
11-17-2004, 02:26 PM
Dang years all run together anymore. I thought the meltdown game was the start of the decline of the defense.

No, just ask KCJohnny. The decline of the defense started when DV was named Head Coach and the Ramzification began.

Lzen
11-17-2004, 02:29 PM
Yep...that was his last season.

Nope, that was in 1998. DT played in 1999 and died in Feb(?) 2000. In reality, the defense in 1999 was pretty good. At least that's the way I remember it.

KCTitus
11-17-2004, 02:30 PM
I dont know what statistical measure you'd agree to use, but I looked on pro-football-reference and here's what I saw:

1997: #1 in points allowed
1998: #22
1999: #13
2000: #19
2001: #23
2002: #28
2003: #19

htismaqe
11-17-2004, 02:36 PM
No, just ask KCJohnny. The decline of the defense started when DV was named Head Coach and the Ramzification began.

Exactly. :rolleyes:

Seriously, the defensive decline of this team began the day they kept Derrick Thomas over Smith.

I'll probably get flamed to a crisp for saying this, but Thomas was a liability in stopping the run. We decided to keep him and focus our defense around him. We let guys like Smith, Saleamua, and Traylor go in favor of Dan Williams and later Chester McGlockton.

shaneo69
11-17-2004, 02:37 PM
Nope, that was in 1998. DT played in 1999 and died in Feb(?) 2000. In reality, the defense in 1999 was pretty good. At least that's the way I remember it.

Yes, '99 was Derrick's last year. We gave up 20.1 points per game in '99. We had 25 INT's, 20 fumble recoveries (compared to 1 this year), and we had 39 sacks. Opponents averaged only 3.7 yards per rush against us that year.

shaneo69
11-17-2004, 02:43 PM
Exactly. :rolleyes:

Seriously, the defensive decline of this team began the day they kept Derrick Thomas over Smith.

I'll probably get flamed to a crisp for saying this, but Thomas was a liability in stopping the run. We decided to keep him and focus our defense around him. We let guys like Smith, Saleamua, and Traylor go in favor of Dan Williams and later Chester McGlockton.

I won't flame you for your opinion, but I can't agree with that. I'd take Derrick any day over Neil.

I thought our run defense went to hell as soon as we benched Tom Barndt and moved Dan Williams to DT late in '99. Then we let Barndt go as a free agent after that season.

htismaqe
11-17-2004, 02:43 PM
I guess I have to chime in and say I was against hiring Gunther from the get-go.

I strongly felt like hiring Gunther would mean no free agents -- primarily because Gunther's "I" attitude would likely mean he told Vermeil and Peterson that we didn't need any free agents with him on the job.

htismaqe
11-17-2004, 02:45 PM
I won't flame you for your opinion, but I can't agree with that. I'd take Derrick any day over Neil.

I thought our run defense went to hell as soon as we benched Tom Barndt and moved Dan Williams to DT late in '99. Then we let Barndt go as a free agent after that season.

I didn't articulate that well. The Thomas-over-Smith deal, to me, was the beginning of Marty going for "style" over "substance". Every person we signed from then on was either a cancer, malcontent, or criminal.

Douche Baggins
11-17-2004, 02:46 PM
I think you are missing the point. The true scapegoats are Vermeil and Peterson. Gunther is just their whipping boy.

Vermeil should have given Gunther total control of the defense - personnel, coaches, etc.

I'm pretty much done with Dick 4 Meal. He can stick his profile up his ass.

Radar Chief
11-17-2004, 02:47 PM
Exactly. :rolleyes:

Seriously, the defensive decline of this team began the day they kept Derrick Thomas over Smith.

I'll probably get flamed to a crisp for saying this, but Thomas was a liability in stopping the run. We decided to keep him and focus our defense around him. We let guys like Smith, Saleamua, and Traylor go in favor of Dan Williams and later Chester McGlockton.

Personally I was a lot more pissed about letting Trayler go than either Smith or Saleamua.

BigRedChief
11-17-2004, 02:47 PM
Wasn't DT on the field during the "Monday Night Meltdown" game?

He was the main reason for the MNF meltdown. Having sharpe talk smack to him all night finally got to him and he grabbed the face mask and I'mgoing WTF are you doing! get some frigging control back Marty.

Coach
11-17-2004, 02:51 PM
He was the main reason for the MNF meltdown. Having sharpe talk smack to him all night finally got to him and he grabbed the face mask and I'mgoing WTF are you doing! get some frigging control back Marty.

I remember that incident as well, and wasn't that the time where Marty was trying to get the team under control, but failed to do so after talking to DT, but DT said something along with the lines of "shut up!"?

Chief Faithful
11-17-2004, 02:54 PM
Bottomline is I still like this years defense significantly more than last years defense. Don't forget the Chiefs are playing much better teams this year, the defensive scheme is new, and still the defense is performing better. Gun is not the Chiefs problem.

Even with the disappointments this year I am very happy with the current coaching staff.

htismaqe
11-17-2004, 03:00 PM
I think you are missing the point. The true scapegoats are Vermeil and Peterson. Gunther is just their whipping boy.

Vermeil should have given Gunther total control of the defense - personnel, coaches, etc.

I'm pretty much done with Dick 4 Meal. He can stick his profile up his ass.

I call bullshit.

You have no way of knowing the Vermeil DID NOT give Gunther total control.

In fact, I'm 100% convinced that he DID. He told Gunther "The defense is yours, what do you want to do."

And Gunther said "I can fix this. I don't need new players. I don't need new coaches. I can fix this."

Remember, Fred Pagac was brought in because the previous LB coach QUIT because he said he couldn't work for Gunther...

Wile_E_Coyote
11-17-2004, 03:00 PM
I think you are missing the point. The true scapegoats are Vermeil and Peterson. Gunther is just their whipping boy.

Vermeil should have given Gunther total control of the defense - personnel, coaches, etc.

I'm pretty much done with Dick 4 Meal. He can stick his profile up his ass.

DV got Chief fans a couple of things they craved for years. 1) a feature back & may have actually developed one as well. 2) a good consistant QB. The playoff win is still out there

Douche Baggins
11-17-2004, 03:00 PM
Exactly. :rolleyes:

Seriously, the defensive decline of this team began the day they kept Derrick Thomas over Smith.

I'll probably get flamed to a crisp for saying this, but Thomas was a liability in stopping the run. We decided to keep him and focus our defense around him. We let guys like Smith, Saleamua, and Traylor go in favor of Dan Williams and later Chester McGlockton.

Of course the problem here was there was no way in HELL the Chiefs were going to let Derrick Thomas go. He was arguable the best Chiefs player in how many years?

They should have found a way to keep Derrick AND Neil.

Of course a couple years later Hicks came along and got 14 sacks.

Douche Baggins
11-17-2004, 03:02 PM
I call bullshit.

You have no way of knowing the Vermeil DID NOT give Gunther total control.

In fact, I'm 100% convinced that he DID. He told Gunther "The defense is yours, what do you want to do."

And Gunther said "I can fix this. I don't need new players. I don't need new coaches. I can fix this."

Remember, Fred Pagac was brought in because the previous LB coach QUIT because he said he couldn't work for Gunther...

How many of the previous defensive position coaches were retained after Gunther was brought in? I think Gunther would have brought in his own coaches, at least. I still think Guinta is a horrible coach.

Of course the fact that Vermeil let Gunther bench his precious McCleon is a pretty good sign that Gunther has total control. Who knows.

Douche Baggins
11-17-2004, 03:03 PM
DV got Chief fans a couple of things they craved for years. 1) a feature back & may have actually developed one as well. 2) a good consistant QB. The playoff win is still out there

Vermeil for OC. And you know he'd run the ball more than Saunders. ROFL

the Talking Can
11-17-2004, 03:04 PM
I was against hiring Gun...but given our options he seemed like a reasonable choice....he was hired to change the "spirit" of defense, and since it seems, imho, that our defense has essentially given up half way through the year, and that they are arguably no better than last year, he has - so far- failed....miserably....

but, as has been mentioned, CP and DV bear the ultimate responsibility...they played on Gun's insane sense of loyalty and put him an impossible situation...the players on our defense are so lacking in talent, heart, desire, and pride that it is breathtaking...

damn, it is cloudy outside today....

htismaqe
11-17-2004, 03:05 PM
How many of the previous defensive position coaches were retained after Gunther was brought in? I think Gunther would have brought in his own coaches, at least. I still think Guinta is a horrible coach.

Of course the fact that Vermeil let Gunther bench his precious McCleon is a pretty good sign that Gunther has total control. Who knows.

Listen to Gunther now and compare it to back then.

He hasn't changed one bit.

He still believes that he, and he alone, can elevate this defense to a higher level.

Wile_E_Coyote
11-17-2004, 03:06 PM
Vermeil for OC. And you know he'd run the ball more than Saunders. ROFL

DV's run hasn't been all bad is the point

htismaqe
11-17-2004, 03:06 PM
I was against hiring Gun...but given our options he seemed like a reasonable choice....he was hired to change the "spirit" of defense, and since it seems, imho, that our defense has essentially given up half way through the year, and that they are arguably no better than last year, he has - so far- failed....miserably....

but, as has been mentioned, CP and DV bear the ultimate responsibility...they played on Gun's insane sense of loyalty and put him an impossible situation...the players on our defense are so lacking in talent, heart, desire, and pride that it is breathtaking...

damn, it is cloudy outside today....

You make it sound like Gunther was a victim.

As far as we know, he's a WILLING participant.

He saw the chance for immortal glory by turning around this monstrosity of a defense. He overestimated his ability -- AGAIN.

the Talking Can
11-17-2004, 03:08 PM
You make it sound like Gunther was a victim.

As far as we know, he's a WILLING participant.

He saw the chance for immortal glory by turning around this monstrosity of a defense. He overestimated his ability -- AGAIN.

I claimed he was both.....read it again

the Talking Can
11-17-2004, 03:13 PM
You make it sound like Gunther was a victim.

As far as we know, he's a WILLING participant.

He saw the chance for immortal glory by turning around this monstrosity of a defense. He overestimated his ability -- AGAIN.

let me clarify: CP and DV offered an alcoholic a drink

yes, Gun is responsible....but they new of his insane connection to KC and they new he wouldn't say no....and, IMHO, they knew they putting him in a sad situation....but Gunther's connection to KC glory days was enough to divert everyone: please the fans, create some excitment, feed the talking heads etc....letting our sad D slip under the radar until now, where we find ourselves faced with the truth

Douche Baggins
11-17-2004, 03:16 PM
Vermeil claims that there will be no new starters on D this year. Is he in control or is Gunther? Gunther benched McCleon...

BigRedChief
11-17-2004, 03:18 PM
I was in favor of hiring gun and I'm still in favor of him as DC....for now.

Douche Baggins
11-17-2004, 03:23 PM
I was in favor of hiring gun and I'm still in favor of him as DC....for now.

There is nothing wrong with Gunther's scheme. But if he thinks he can stand pat talent-wise this offseason, he can get the hell out of KC.

Deberg_1990
11-17-2004, 04:32 PM
The biggest mistake DV ever made was in not canning Grob and this pathetic secondary after the 2002 season. We have all known they were crap for about 4 seasons now. If he would have done that we would now be in season 2 of our Defensive rebuilding period.

Wallcrawler
11-17-2004, 05:25 PM
Coaches coach. Players play the game.


The failure of this defense does not fall on the shoulders of Gunther Cunningham. Past history has proven that the first year a new coach/coordinator takes over, barring a few instances, things are generally very rough.

This defense was the laughing stock of the league for 3 years running, and they didnt bring in any new talent for year 4, and Gun's first crack at turning this thing around.


Greg Robinson ran complicated, confusing, and utter bs schemes that he didnt have the talent to run. He refused to alter his scheme, and therefore the rankings never improved.

Gunther runs a very basic, aggressive defense. Not as much confusion, but the fact remains that the players that are on the field are just not the caliber of players that can perform at a high level every week.

Massive change is needed with this team, and its going to be a long time coming. Standing pat this last offseason only lengthened the problem. Im thinking it will take at least TWO GOOD OFFSEASONS on defense to even begin to turn this thing around. The caliber of defensive talent on the free agent list will most likely not match what was available last season.

The Chiefs could have had shots at Jevon Kearse, Grant Wistrom, Robaire Smith, Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Antoine Winfield, Joey porter....the list goes on.

Granted, some of these guys were veteran players with only a season or two left, but they are definately better than any player on the Chiefs defensive roster right now. But they chose to re-sign all of the crap players that would have been leaving to long term contracts.

If anyone should bear the brunt of this disaster, its Carl Peterson, and Lamar Hunt for not wanting something more for this team.