PDA

View Full Version : What? No props for Marty?


KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:07 PM
Let's have a sense of humor, boys.
Marty (no championships) Schottenheimer came in here and ran up 498 yards of total offense against Dick (2 SBs) Vermiel on the road with 25 1st downs, 34 points, and 127 rushing yards. Drew Brees throws for a-Trentish 371 yards...and the Bolts cruise to 8-3 while we languish at 3-8.


.... :hmmm:

OK, throw pie, now.

KCJohnny
Ready for something other than .500 :(

morphius
11-28-2004, 09:09 PM
Congrats on your favorite team winning, merry christmas.

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:10 PM
My favorite team lost again, Morph. Let's be classy enough to congratulate the victor, eh?

FloridaChief
11-28-2004, 09:11 PM
Marty deserves congrats, surely. The Chargers came out to win this game, and the Chiefs came out....as the Chiefs.

BigChiefFan
11-28-2004, 09:11 PM
What was last year? Ready for something better than .500? Your act has grown so old and tiresome. Get OVER IT!!!!! Marty is NOT coming back. He was a good coach, but he didn't do anything spectactular for the Chiefs and it's really time to move on. Enough already.

Deberg_1990
11-28-2004, 09:12 PM
Marty is well on his way to another first round playoff loss! Hes the best regular season NFL coach ever!!!

morphius
11-28-2004, 09:12 PM
My favorite team lost again, Morph. Let's be classy enough to congratulate the victor, eh?
Why He isn't reading this... He didn't mae our guys drop balls, drop sure TD's... Yeah, he finally beat a flondering team finding a way to lose games. Yeah for him...

FloridaChief
11-28-2004, 09:13 PM
He was a good coach, but he didn't do anything spectactular for the Chiefs

A canard.

Spicy McHaggis
11-28-2004, 09:13 PM
I don't have to have a sense of humor. I watch Family Guy when I want to laugh, not the effin Chiefs game. And Marty can go to hell.

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:14 PM
What was last year? Ready for something better than .500? Your act has grown so old and tiresome. Get OVER IT!!!!! Marty is NOT coming back. He was a good coach, but he didn't do anything spectactular for the Chiefs and it's really time to move on. Enough already.

No, but he easily exceeded the Vermiel record. Spectacular? How about 3rd winningest team in the NFL over a 10 year period? The only teams with more wins were SF and Buffalo (by one game). DV has a 5th, a 3rd, a 1st, and a last place finish in the AFCW after four seasons... :shake:

Count Zarth
11-28-2004, 09:16 PM
aND mARTY WILL TANk in the PLayOFFs AGAin!

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:17 PM
aND mARTY WILL TANk in the PLayOFFs AGAin!

At least he'll be there... :harumph:

Deberg_1990
11-28-2004, 09:18 PM
aND mARTY WILL TANk in the PLayOFFs AGAin!

He will. I saw many of the same problems he had here. They had 4 penalties on that one TD drive. A good team in the playoffs wont let them get away with that. They also had a stupid delay of game penalty in the 1st half.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
11-28-2004, 09:18 PM
Wow.

We lose and San Diego Johnny is here to cheer on his favorite team.

There's a big surprise.

grandllama
11-28-2004, 09:19 PM
My favorite team lost again, Morph. Let's be classy enough to congratulate the victor, eh?

I'd agree with you Johnny, but I'm already sticking my neck out far enough by daring to suggest that Priest isn't God (nor a team player, nor stupid enough to believe his own Keep the Faith initative.)

If I get lumped in with you, it would be all over ROFL

Bwana
11-28-2004, 09:19 PM
:hump: Marty

morphius
11-28-2004, 09:19 PM
Come back when he gets to as many Super Bowls as DV...

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:20 PM
I'd agree with you Johnny, but I'm already sticking my neck out far enough by daring to suggest that Priest isn't God (nor a team player, nor stupid enough to believe his own Keep the Faith initative.)

If I get lumped in with you, it would be all over ROFL

Then keep away from me, brother!!!!

Otis Day
11-28-2004, 09:20 PM
KC Johnny - your act has grown tired several times over. You are like my 2 year old that keeps asking the same question over and over. You're a broken record. I think I liked you better when you were fighting for us. Any chance you go back?

philfree
11-28-2004, 09:20 PM
Marty's a damn good HC and with us out of the hunt I hope he takes his team all the way. I can't think of anyone more deserving.


PhilFree :arrow:

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:21 PM
Come back when he gets to as many Super Bowls as DV...

tHANK YOU FOR BRINGING THIS UP!

DV's record as Chiefs HC: 30-28.
Marty's record as Chiefs HC: 101-58-1.

Bwahahahahahahahahahah :p

Skip Towne
11-28-2004, 09:22 PM
aND mARTY WILL TANk in the PLayOFFs AGAin!
AND, you are keyboard challenged. That reminds me, did I remember to neg rep you today?

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:23 PM
KC Johnny - your act has grown tired several times over. You are like my 2 year old that keeps asking the same question over and over. You're a broken record. I think I liked you better when you were fighting for us. Any chance you go back?

You don't know what you're talking about, friend. Keep the war out of this. If I haven't earned the right to post my opinions, where do you get yours?

alanm
11-28-2004, 09:25 PM
Come back when he gets to as many Super Bowls as DV...Considering it's his 4th team and he hasn't even sniffed one I wouldn't hold my breath.:shake:

Rausch
11-28-2004, 09:25 PM
This won't be pretty...

BigChiefFan
11-28-2004, 09:27 PM
No, but he easily exceeded the Vermiel record. Spectacular? How about 3rd winningest team in the NFL over a 10 year period? The only teams with more wins were SF and Buffalo (by one game). DV has a 5th, a 3rd, a 1st, and a last place finish in the AFCW after four seasons... :shake:
I could give two shits about regular season games. You can't hang your hat on that, because it's hollow. Marty was a good coach and to praise him is one thing, but you take it to the level of being pridefull when the Chiefs fail, as if to say I told you so. You haven't told us jack squat, because Marty didn't fulfil anything signifigant other than regular season wins. Regular season wins although make for more competitive games and giving hope to the fans are MEANINGLESS. Regular season wins equal how many trophies in the case? Exactly. NONE. ZILCH. NADA. Hang you hat on that.

HC_Chief
11-28-2004, 09:27 PM
The only thing Marty gets props for is pulling his head out of his ass when it comes to offensive philosophy. Cam Cameron runs a Coryell variant very similar to KC's.

That, coincidentally, is what made this 500yd, 34 point surrendering performance by the _efnse today so pathetic: it's the same O they face every day in practice!!!!!

Gunther did a lousy job picking players and hasn't done jack with turning this _efense around. That's right GUNTHER. HE picked Hicks, Woods, Wesley, Warfield, Bartee; ie our 'core' defenders.... he brought them into the league and he taught them. It's obvious he didn't do too well.

Otis Day
11-28-2004, 09:27 PM
The only difference between you and Taco is that you incite with Marty as your weapon and he incites with Denver.

Also, I am not minimizing your efforts in war.

That's my opinion.

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:28 PM
Considering it's his 4th team and he hasn't even sniffed one I wouldn't hold my breath.:shake:

Yes, yes, comfort one another with these words.

At least the Bolts have a chance this year. We are NOWHERE, LOSERS, and ALSO RANS.

KCJ
Contrary to poular belief, NOT enjoying these losses! I LIKE DV!

Coach
11-28-2004, 09:28 PM
KC Johnny, sure, Marty has a better season record than DV right now, but what really matters the most, or rather how I should say, what seperates a coach from another coach is being there in the "Big Game"

DV - 1 Super Bowl ring
Marty - 0 Super Bowl ring.

Now enough is enough please.

Spicy McHaggis
11-28-2004, 09:28 PM
Marty is never coming back. This argument is about as valid as me sitting here rocking back and forth while gibbering about a time-machine that the Chiefs use to make Hasty 27 again so we can have a shut down corner.

morphius
11-28-2004, 09:29 PM
tHANK YOU FOR BRINGING THIS UP!

DV's record as Chiefs HC: 30-28.
Marty's record as Chiefs HC: 101-58-1.

Bwahahahahahahahahahah :p
And neither of us took us to the SB... So big yipee.

SNR
11-28-2004, 09:29 PM
KC Johnny - your act has grown tired several times over. You are like my 2 year old that keeps asking the same question over and over. You're a broken record. I think I liked you better when you were fighting for us. Any chance you go back?Not very classy, dude.

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:29 PM
I could give two shits about regular season games. You can't hang your hat on that, because it's hollow. Marty was a good coach and to praise him is one thing, but you take it to the level of being pridefull when the Chiefs fail, as if to say I told you so. You haven't told us jack squat, because Marty didn't fulfil anything signifigant other than regular season wins. Regular season wins although make for more competitive games and giving hope to the fans are MEANINGLESS. Regular season wins equal how many trophies in the case? Exactly. NONE. ZILCH. NADA. Hang you hat on that.

Action news flash: if you don't MAKE the playoffs, you can't ADVANCE in the post-season.

You're welcome. :)

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:31 PM
And neither of us took us to the SB... So big yipee.
My point EXACTLY. :clap:

morphius
11-28-2004, 09:32 PM
My point EXACTLY. :clap:
Then why keep bringing him up?

He brought us years of RBbC, years of QB's in and out, years of inept OC, horrible idea of LB for a QB coach...

BigChiefFan
11-28-2004, 09:33 PM
Action news flash: if you don't MAKE the playoffs, you can't ADVANCE in the post-season.

You're welcome. :)
News flash if you make the playoffs and don't advance it's doesn't mean a damn thing. Glad you take great pride in hollow achievements.

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:35 PM
Then why keep bringing him up?

He brought us years of RBbC, years of QB's in and out, years of inept OC, horrible idea of LB for a QB coach...

OK, Morph, with RBbC he also brought rushing titles. With revolving QBs, he sent them all to the Pro-Bowl. His offenses set team records (1994).

I'm not saying Marty was the ANSWER, but nobody backing DV has ANYTHING negative to say about Marty!

Nelson Muntz
11-28-2004, 09:37 PM
My point EXACTLY. :clap:

So what exactly is the point? That Marty, who in 20 some years of coaching has never sniffed a SB, should replace DV who at least has a SB win somewhere else? Seems like status quo to me.

alanm
11-28-2004, 09:37 PM
News flash if you make the playoffs and don't advance it's doesn't mean a damn thing. Glad you take great pride in hollow achievements.Well we did beat Pittsburg and Houston in the playoffs. But other than that Marty laid a big fat egg. And possibly a waitress or 2.:thumb:

morphius
11-28-2004, 09:38 PM
OK, Morph, with RBbC he also brought rushing titles. With revolving QBs, he sent them all to the Pro-Bowl. His offenses set team records (1994).

I'm not saying Marty was the ANSWER, but nobody backing DV has ANYTHING negative to say about Marty!
Yup, sent them to one probowl and then out of the league. He got running yards, but not points. And when he got to the playoffs he lost his bloody mind.

Nelson Muntz
11-28-2004, 09:40 PM
Yup, sent them to one probowl and then out of the league. He got running yards, but not points. And when he got to the playoffs he lost his bloody mind.


Thats ok though. He has one of the best regular season winning percentages of all time. The playoff losses don't mean shit.

KcMizzou
11-28-2004, 09:41 PM
I won't slam Marty. He turned me into a Chiefs fan when I was 15...

Nelson Muntz
11-28-2004, 09:42 PM
I won't slam Marty. He turned me into a Chiefs fan when I was 15...


Same here, but I sure as hell don't want him back like some people on here.

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 09:46 PM
Same here, but I sure as hell don't want him back like some people on here.

Nobody's saying bring him back. Just saying DV;s no better in KC...

morphius
11-28-2004, 09:48 PM
Same here, but I sure as hell don't want him back like some people on here.
Exactly, when he left it was time for him to leave, period. He is not here, he is now with a team with a star RB he didn't draft, is having to play the QB he wanted to cut and is somehow pulling out his first winning season in years.

Nelson Muntz
11-28-2004, 09:52 PM
Exactly, when he left it was time for him to leave, period. He is not here, he is now with a team with a star RB he didn't draft, is having to play the QB he wanted to cut and is somehow pulling out his first winning season in years.


Sure would be interesting to see where Marty would be this year with the RB and the QB he would have liked to have had.

Phobia
11-28-2004, 09:54 PM
Ready for something other than .500 :(

This IS something other than .500.

It's .300. Enjoy.

Seriously, though; if you're wanting such an amazing improvement over .500 football, why are you always pining for Gunther Cunningham?

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 10:01 PM
This IS something other than .500.

It's .300. Enjoy.

Seriously, though; if you're wanting such an amazing improvement over .500 football, why are you always pining for Gunther Cunningham?

I don't pine for Gun. I received an avalanche of abuse in 2000 after Gun was fired, DV hired and Ramifization was enacted. I maintain (and Vermiel seems to agree with me- see my sig line) that a 3rd Cunningham season would have been as good or better than DV's 6-10 and that a 4th Cunningham seasi=on would have wrought at least as good as 8-8 and that a 5th Gun season would have netted a playoff appearance. For all his fanfare and accolades, that's all DV has gotten us, and Gun would have done the same, and maybe better, we'll never know...

Nelson Muntz
11-28-2004, 10:05 PM
I don't pine for Gun. I received an avalanche of abuse in 2000 after Gun was fired, DV hired and Ramifization was enacted. I maintain (and Vermiel seems to agree with me- see my sig line) that a 3rd Cunningham season would have been as good or better than DV's 6-10 and that a 4th Cunningham seasi=on would have wrought at least as good as 8-8 and that a 5th Gun season would have netted a playoff appearance. For all his fanfare and accolades, that's all DV has gotten us, and Gun would have done the same, and maybe better, we'll never know...

Exactly so STFU and quit acting like Gun and Marty are Gods.

alanm
11-28-2004, 10:05 PM
You keep forgetting John that Gun went insane and the team quit on him.

Nelson Muntz
11-28-2004, 10:06 PM
You keep forgetting John that Gun went insane and the team quit on him.

Well thats just a minor detail. Marty has the best regular season winning percentage and since Gun is one of his disciples that means Gun will have the same success. Jeez I thought you knew. :shake:

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 10:07 PM
You keep forgetting John that Gun went insane and the team quit on him.

What do you call a 3-8 team? Winners? Belivers? Its been 4 years, guys...

Rausch
11-28-2004, 10:08 PM
What do you call a 3-8 team? Winners? Belivers? Its been 4 years, guys...

Gunther is part of this 3-8 abortion...

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 10:08 PM
Exactly so STFU and quit acting like Gun and Marty are Gods.
No, you STFU and accept that DV haS not IMPROVED ON THE Cunnigham record.

And Gun was in his first HC job ever...

Iowanian
11-28-2004, 10:09 PM
You should hit yourself in the outie with a hammer.


I think it will be great if the Dolts win the division.....They've wallowed worse than the Chiefs for a long time, Marty hasn't compiled a winning season for them until this year, and their QB will be gone, and starting with a rookie next year.

the Talking Can
11-28-2004, 10:10 PM
Gunther is part of this 3-8 abortion...

shhhhhh.....don't interrupt Johhny's fantasy, he's about to cum....

Phobia
11-28-2004, 10:12 PM
I don't pine for Gun. I received an avalanche of abuse in 2000 after Gun was fired, DV hired and Ramifization was enacted. I maintain (and Vermiel seems to agree with me- see my sig line) that a 3rd Cunningham season would have been as good or better than DV's 6-10 and that a 4th Cunningham seasi=on would have wrought at least as good as 8-8 and that a 5th Gun season would have netted a playoff appearance. For all his fanfare and accolades, that's all DV has gotten us, and Gun would have done the same, and maybe better, we'll never know...

Wow. That's a whole lot of rationalization there.

Let me see if I can translate this into "not a crazy person" language:

I don't pine for Gunther. He's merely a pawn in my vindication since I was picked on during my time on the internet.

Do any of you other non-crazy people agree with my summarization?

alanm
11-28-2004, 10:13 PM
No, you STFU and accept that DV haS not IMPROVED ON THE Cunnigham record.

And Gun was in his first HC job ever...And last. He's a good DC, But that's all he's going to be.

KCJohnny
11-28-2004, 10:14 PM
Gunther is part of this 3-8 abortion...
No argument there, but Gun has a track record of fielding top defenses. This team was stacked up on one side of the ball from the moment DV and the 17 former Rams players and coaches defected down I-70 in February of 2000 to One Arrowhead Stadium. One of the league's top QBs (Grbac) was replaced by a backup who cost the team a #1 pick. The D was allowed to slide from 18th to 32nd. You can't blame Gun for a 4 year deliberate trend toward favoring offense.

alanm
11-28-2004, 10:15 PM
You should hit yourself in the outie with a hammer.


I think it will be great if the Dolts win the division.....They've wallowed worse than the Chiefs for a long time, Marty hasn't compiled a winning season for them until this year, and their QB will be gone, and starting with a rookie next year.Well 1st yr QB. Technically he won't be a rookie. :)

Joe Seahawk
11-28-2004, 10:22 PM
One of the league's top QBs (Grbac) was replaced by a backup who cost the team a #1 pick. The D was allowed to slide from 18th to 32nd. You can't blame Gun for a 4 year deliberate trend toward favoring offense.

So where's Grbac now, ands if He's so much better than Trent Green than why did he retire in shame?

Rausch
11-28-2004, 10:23 PM
No argument there, but Gun has a track record of fielding top defenses. This team was stacked up on one side of the ball from the moment DV and the 17 former Rams players and coaches defected down I-70 in February of 2000 to One Arrowhead Stadium. One of the league's top QBs (Grbac) was replaced by a backup who cost the team a #1 pick. The D was allowed to slide from 18th to 32nd. You can't blame Gun for a 4 year deliberate trend toward favoring offense.

First, Girlbac is $#it. No character, no heart, no team.

Second, this is the same 13-3 team that we had last year. I'd even argue slightly more talented on Defense. Problem is, not only did we suffer injuries this year but our offense decided to puke in crunchtime. Every week. And without a single stud on defense we can't overcome mistakes.

Woods has gotten old and slow. Bartee isn't a starting CB and Warfield is a solid no 2 CB. Our secondary apparently got ahold of GWB's pretzels.

Third, GROB $#itted up our D and it's going to take more than 1 year to air out the stink.

Lack of talent is the same reason Gun's teams played average. His D was nothing to write home about his 2nd year either.

Phobia
11-28-2004, 10:24 PM
So where's Grbac now, ands if He's so much better than Trent Green than why did he retire in shame?

He's not starting for the Seahawks? Damn, I figured you had a builtin excuse for the loss to the Cards. Bummer.

Brock
11-28-2004, 10:26 PM
Grbac a top QB, oh hahaha, that is a laugh. He's currently living in a cave in Ohio.

Iowanian
11-28-2004, 10:27 PM
Grbac is more than likely tossing off lonely truckers and bronco fans at a truck stop near Albequerque.


Grbac had a smaller scrote than a post op tranny that used to spread fairy tales on this site.

Joe Seahawk
11-28-2004, 10:31 PM
He's not starting for the Seahawks? Damn, I figured you had a builtin excuse for the loss to the Cards. Bummer.

I've come to the dissapointing realization that we are simply not the team I thought we would be.. We'll be fortunate to win the division, and even if we do we'll lose in the first round most likely.

Yesterday I felt we could get on track and make a run, but after today's game I have come to my senses and realize my beloved Seahawks have no heart, can't handle adversity, and Darrell Jackson and Koren Robinson are both pieces of $hit.

the Talking Can
11-28-2004, 10:31 PM
Did I miss Johnny's "What? No props for DV?" post last year when we swept San Diego and went to the playoffs for the first time since Marty retired?

the Talking Can
11-28-2004, 10:32 PM
I've come to the dissapointing realization that we are simply not the team I thought we would be.. We'll be fortunate to win the division, and even if we do we'll lose in the first round most likely.

Yesterday I felt we could get on track and make a run, but after today's game I have come to my senses and realize my beloved Seahawks have no heart, can't handle adversity, and Darrell Jackson and Koren Robinson are both pieces of $hit.

welcome, brother

Iowanian
11-28-2004, 10:35 PM
Did I miss Johnny's "What? No props for DV?" post last year when we swept San Diego and went to the playoffs for the first time since Marty retired?

Allow me.


KCJ was with the 82nd airborne performing 100 combat missions in the sands of Iraq, defending your right to bitch and call him names.


Thats what he'll say.........

...and I think its a solid arguement.

Iowanian
11-28-2004, 10:36 PM
I've come to the dissapointing realization that we are simply not the team I thought we would be.. We'll be fortunate to win the division, and even if we do we'll lose in the first round most likely.

Yesterday I felt we could get on track and make a run, but after today's game I have come to my senses and realize my beloved Seahawks have no heart, can't handle adversity, and Darrell Jackson and Koren Robinson are both pieces of $hit.

Hi, My names' Joe Seahawk, and I'm an addict of a team nearly as disappointing as the Chiefs.

Hi Joe.

No Hugs here, just throw the Foam Brick of disappointment at the Team tied to the Tree of Woe.

the Talking Can
11-28-2004, 10:37 PM
Allow me.


KCJ was with the 82nd airborne performing 100 combat missions in the sands of Iraq, defending your right to bitch and call him names.


Thats what he'll say.........

...and I think its a solid arguement.
so the answer to my question is no...that's all you needed to say

Phobia
11-28-2004, 10:47 PM
I've come to the dissapointing realization that we are simply not the team I thought we would be.. We'll be fortunate to win the division, and even if we do we'll lose in the first round most likely.

Yesterday I felt we could get on track and make a run, but after today's game I have come to my senses and realize my beloved Seahawks have no heart, can't handle adversity, and Darrell Jackson and Koren Robinson are both pieces of $hit.

The NFL sucks lately. I gotta find something more positive to do with a portion of my weekend.

The Bad Guy
11-28-2004, 10:53 PM
Nobody's saying bring him back. Just saying DV;s no better in KC...

And that's your Super Bowl right there. That's what makes you so happy.

Honestly, I don't doubt you were clapping at the end of this game.

Just like clockwork, Chiefs lose, Proctor shows up gloating in some fashion or another.

Blow it out of your ass.

The Bad Guy
11-28-2004, 10:57 PM
What do you call a 3-8 team? Winners? Belivers? Its been 4 years, guys...

And it's been 4 years that we've had to put up with your troll bullshit - you're no better than Taco John.

You showed how much you know about the game with your Grbac is a top QB statement that people keep quoting.

philfree
11-28-2004, 10:59 PM
It was four years ago :rolleyes: ........................If ya can't get over it see a doctor! This thread at this point in time is as lame as it gets. :shake:


PhilFree :arrow:

Saggysack
11-29-2004, 12:04 AM
KC Johnny, sure, Marty has a better season record than DV right now, but what really matters the most, or rather how I should say, what seperates a coach from another coach is being there in the "Big Game"

DV - 1 Super Bowl ring
Marty - 0 Super Bowl ring.

Now enough is enough please.

So freaking what!? Barry Switzer has a SB ring.

Did being there in the big game help Bill Callahan, Jim Fassel, Dan Reeves, Bobby Ross, Marv Levy, Sam Wyche, Raymond Berry or Forrest Gregg? What seperates them? Luck? It surely can't be because they were great coaches.

Out of DV's 14 seasons in the league, he has produced winning records in 6. WoofreakinHoo. :rolleyes:

alanm
11-29-2004, 12:10 AM
The NFL sucks lately. I gotta find something more positive to do with a portion of my weekend.Isn't that what the wife's for? :thumb::p

Coach
11-29-2004, 12:10 AM
So freaking what!? Barry Switzer has a SB ring.

Did being there in the big game help Bill Callahan, Jim Fassel, Dan Reeves, Bobby Ross, Marv Levy, Sam Wyche, Raymond Berry or Forrest Gregg? What seperates them? Luck? It surely can't be because they were great coaches.

Out of DV's 14 seasons in the league, he has produced winning records in 6. WoofreakinHoo. :rolleyes:

Yet, the first 2 years in Philly were a shitty team, before the 1978 season where he had a winning season, other than the last year he coached for them when he retired in 82. Same goes for the 2 years for the Rams before the 99 season.

Same goes for the first year in KC.

Logical
11-29-2004, 12:14 AM
I would have thought Proctor would have learned his lesson and avoided creating threads like this one. Sad

Coach
11-29-2004, 12:17 AM
Oh, and also he guided Philadelphia to Super Bowl XV after the 1980 season. He's a good rebuilding type of a coach. Don't let that 6 winning seasons fool you.

KCWolfman
11-29-2004, 12:17 AM
Come back when he gets to as many Super Bowls as DV...
Hell, just come back when he gets to one.

tk13
11-29-2004, 12:19 AM
Yeah you have to remember that Vermeil ended an 18 year playoff drought for Philadelphia, a 10 year playoff drought for the Rams, and a 6 year playoff drought with the Chiefs (which I believe was one of the longest in the league)... he took over some pretty desolate teams.

KCWolfman
11-29-2004, 12:24 AM
Yeah you have to remember that Vermeil ended an 18 year playoff drought for Philadelphia, a 10 year playoff drought for the Rams, and a 6 year playoff drought with the Chiefs (which I believe was one of the longest in the league)... he took over some pretty desolate teams.
Who was in control for the majority of the 6 year drought?

tk13
11-29-2004, 12:40 AM
Who was in control for the majority of the 6 year drought?
I'm not quite sure where you're trying to lead me with this, Marty/Gunther/DV all coached in that span... am I supposed to say Carl?

Saggysack
11-29-2004, 01:03 AM
Yet, the first 2 years in Philly were a shitty team, before the 1978 season where he had a winning season, other than the last year he coached for them when he retired in 82. Same goes for the 2 years for the Rams before the 99 season.

Same goes for the first year in KC.

Marty inherited a shatty team in KC in 1989 and had a winning season his first year, which followed with 8 more winning seasons. That doesn't account for anything? Having atleast a chance doesn't mean jack?

Do you know Vermeil was almost railroaded out of StL before the 1999 season? Did you know that he was forced to make changes in his hand picked coaching staff prior to the 1999 or else he would have been fired? Vermeil wanted to stand pat. Sound familiar?

from a Jan. 1999 article...
It's not ducky with the Rams. Two years ago, president John Shaw told me after hiring Dick Vermeil: "It's either going to go down in history as a brilliant move or I'll sit in the corner with a dunce cap." Well, all I know is that Shaw wants to change quarterbacks and coaching staffs and practice patterns, and Vermeil doesn't want to change a thing, and Shaw, if he didn't owe Vermeil $5.7 million, would have axed him three weeks ago.

Did you know his players following the 1998 season wanted him gone? DV lucked into the Marshall Faulk draft day trade and he lucked into Kurt Warner doing what he was able to do that year. He doesn't even take credit for bringing in Green prior to the 99 season with the Rams.

from a Nov. 18th 2004 Q&A...
Q: When you were at St. Louis, it was really Mike Martz who had the prior relationship with Trent Green and brought him there.

VERMEIL: “No, it wasn’t. It was Dick Vermeil that brought him.”

Q: It was you?

VERMEIL: “Yeah. Yeah, okay? It was Jay Zygmunt and John Shaw that brought him there. Mike Martz coached him. Mike Martz was part of the evaluation process and Mike did a super job, like he always does coaching quarterbacks. He did a great job, but the responsibility for that in any organization is not one guy.”

Did you know Vermeil had control taken away from him following the 98 season with the Rams? http://www.stlsports.com/editorials/011101vermeilquestion.html

Before answering, remind yourself that Dick Vermeil, during the 1997 and 1998 seasons, wore two hats for the Rams: head coach and president-football operations. In other words, during the 1997 and 1998 seasons, Vermeil held the unofficial title of King of Rams Football, executive vice-president Jay Zygmunt did Vermeil's bidding as far as player contracts and finances were concerned, and John Becker orchestrated the team's annual college draft...while team president John Shaw acquired and counted Georgia Frontiere's money, majority owner Georgia spent her money (or is that our money!), and (minority owner) Stan Kroenke watched (and waited). In other words, in 1997 and 1998, all on-the-field football-related decisions were approved by the team's president-football operations: Mr. Dick Vermeil.

Then, after only five wins in 1997, and four in 1998, Rams President John Shaw shuffled his management cards prior to the start of the 1999 season and named scouting guru Charley Armey to the newly-created post of vice-president, personnel. More importantly, Shaw, in a much-publicized January '99 meeting with Vermeil, demanded that Vermeil put into place specific player and coaching changes. Indeed, in the team's '99 pre-season literature, Dick Vermeil was listed only as "Coach"...with personnel man Armey assuming many of Vermeil's former management duties. Significantly, during the 1999 season, the Rams president-football operations post was not filled. As far as his title...and his authority within the organization, Dick Vermeil had been downsized

Vermeil didn't build the 99 Rams, he was just the lucky dog that was HC.

Saggysack
11-29-2004, 01:44 AM
Oh, and also he guided Philadelphia to Super Bowl XV after the 1980 season. He's a good rebuilding type of a coach. Don't let that 6 winning seasons fool you.

And don't let a SB win with that 99 Rams team fool you either.

DV's Rams teams of 1997 and 98 he built went a combined 9-23. He was forced to relinquish control and personel moves prior to the 99 season. His players were in revolt. Take some time and research DV's history with the Rams. You would be completely surprised that he was forced to do many things that he didn't want to do that led them into the SB of the 99 season. It was those in the FO that made the Faulk trade and Green signing, not DV. It was DV who said in the 99 preseason that the Rams didn't have a chance after Green went down. I remember the tears.

He was ready to stick with Tony Banks as QB in 1999. That says alot about Dick Vermeil to me.

tk13
11-29-2004, 02:57 AM
I think it is quite an understated point to say "he was just the head coach". You can't just sit there and say Vermeil had nothing to do with that Super Bowl and say people were "fooled". I mean seriously, look back at some of the recent Super Bowl winners, guys like Bill Belichick and Jon Gruden obviously have a factor in a team's success. Does that mean Dick Vermeil should get 100% of the credit? Heck no, of course not. I imagine it takes a lot of people and things working together correctly to put a Super Bowl winner on the field.

The more player-friendly DV you've seen in KC is a result of him learning from the fact that he worked guys into the ground during those first two years in St. Louis... yeah the players wanted to revolt, they were being driven into the ground with no results. There are a lot of coaches out there that might have very well said "my way or the highway", but Vermeil adjusted, I think that's a sign of a pretty good coach. He could've been stubborn to Trent Green, to Mike Martz, he wasn't... he liked Trent so much he brought him to KC, he's clearly good friends with Mike Martz . You make it seem like he was just some stubborn old man in the corner who absolved himself from anything to do with the team. Mike Martz was good for him, just like Al Saunders can be good for him, a mish-mash of aggressive/conservative personalities. I like it that way, I honestly don't think Vermeil, Saunders, or Martz would be as effective without having the others around (which is why I worry when Saunders will have free reign by himself). I don't see what the big deal is, there are people on this board that would swear up and down that the front office has overrided Vermeil on decisions (Larry Johnson, possibly Gunther's hiring, the fact that Vermeil repeatedly said he was told by the front office that they were "cashed out").... that's the nature of the business. Maybe I'm just way too biased but I don't believe that Vermeil had absolutely nothing to do with winning that Super Bowl... yes he's a delegator, I don't think that makes him any less of a head coach, everybody's different.

I also really don't understand at what point you thought Vermeil thought the 99 team was done when Green got hurt. Yeah he cried but he never said that team was done, in fact I thought he was ridiculed at the time for being stubborn and suggesting that some grocery clerk was going to come in and handle the job and make the team a winner.... maybe my memory is off.

"Kurt Warner has a lot of attributes and has paid his dues," Vermeil said. "He has never been given a good enough opportunity. Well, he has earned the one he has here. I stuck my neck out on him, and I believe he will do a fine job. I think the team believes he will do a fine job.

------------

Obviously, the Rams were going to put the best spin on the situation, but by late Sunday their dark mood had lifted. Part of that comes from their quiet faith in Warner.

"Warner has never gotten an opportunity," Vermeil said. "He's earned this. We will play good football with him at quarterback."

htismaqe
11-29-2004, 05:22 AM
No argument there, but Gun has a track record of fielding top defenses. This team was stacked up on one side of the ball from the moment DV and the 17 former Rams players and coaches defected down I-70 in February of 2000 to One Arrowhead Stadium. One of the league's top QBs (Grbac) was replaced by a backup who cost the team a #1 pick. The D was allowed to slide from 18th to 32nd. You can't blame Gun for a 4 year deliberate trend toward favoring offense.

YOU can't blame Gun for anything. He sent you a care package and is untouchable according to you.

This whole thread is the biggest pile of horseshit ever posted here.

The CHIEFS LOST yesterday, Charger fan...

KCJohnny
11-29-2004, 07:36 AM
Allow me.


KCJ was with the 82nd airborne performing 100 combat missions in the sands of Iraq, defending your right to bitch and call him names.


Thats what he'll say.........

...and I think its a solid arguement.

Thank you, Iowanian.

the Talking Can
11-29-2004, 07:41 AM
:deevee:

poor johhny.....

Dr. Facebook Fever
11-29-2004, 07:42 AM
Let's have a sense of humor, boys.
Marty (no championships) Schottenheimer came in here and ran up 498 yards of total offense against Dick (2 SBs) Vermiel on the road with 25 1st downs, 34 points, and 127 rushing yards. Drew Brees throws for a-Trentish 371 yards...and the Bolts cruise to 8-3 while we languish at 3-8.


.... :hmmm:

OK, throw pie, now.

KCJohnny
Ready for something other than .500 :(
I was at the game and I cheered him during introductions.

Skip Towne
11-29-2004, 08:12 AM
This thread has been quality entertainment. I would like to thank the entire cast of characters who participated.

Lzen
11-29-2004, 08:22 AM
John, I really enjoyed all the Marty Schottenheimer years. He is a very good coach, no doubt. But I did get sick and tired of the ole one and done in the playoffs every year. Sure, it's a very nice situation to be in when you're in playoff contention every year. But one and done really is no better than not making the playoffs. you're still sitting at home come late January. :shake:

Lzen
11-29-2004, 08:27 AM
And another thing, if Vermeil can get this thing turned around and make the playoffs next year(and I believe that is a good possibility), I'll be pleased. At least we should have a much better chance at making a run(you know...actually winning playoff games) than in the Schottenheimer years. But if the Chiefs fall flat on their faces again next season, I'll be ready for a change.

Dartgod
11-29-2004, 08:30 AM
This thread has been quality entertainment. I would like to thank the entire cast of characters who participated.
I agree. This place is a lot more interesting when we lose.

BigMeatballDave
11-29-2004, 09:13 AM
At least he'll be there... :harumph:WHO GIVES A SHIT IF YOU'RE ONLY MAKING A BRIEF APPEARANCE? Last season here was much like Marty's. Kick ass during the season, then tank in the playoffs. How many AFC titles did Marty/Gun win in their 12 seasons?

BigMeatballDave
11-29-2004, 09:16 AM
OK, Morph, with RBbC he also brought rushing titles. With revolving QBs, he sent them all to the Pro-Bowl. His offenses set team records (1994).


:spock: Yeah, thoes offenses were better... :rolleyes:

BigMeatballDave
11-29-2004, 09:41 AM
It was four years ago :rolleyes: ........................If ya can't get over it see a doctor! This thread at this point in time is as lame as it gets. :shake:


PhilFree :arrow:He needs to see a PROCTologist, 'cause his head is up his ass...

memyselfI
11-29-2004, 10:23 AM
Let's have a sense of humor, boys.
Marty (no championships) Schottenheimer came in here and ran up 498 yards of total offense against Dick (2 SBs) Vermiel on the road with 25 1st downs, 34 points, and 127 rushing yards. Drew Brees throws for a-Trentish 371 yards...and the Bolts cruise to 8-3 while we languish at 3-8.


.... :hmmm:

OK, throw pie, now.

KCJohnny
Ready for something other than .500 :(


I'm sure yesterday was soooooo sweet for ole Marty. He got to defeat his replacement AND his replacement's replacement in one day!!!! ROFL

If it would burn King Carl's azz, I'll root for Marty to get to the dance. We could start an alumni of folks Carl dumped and got there before he did.

Dartgod
11-29-2004, 11:16 AM
I'm sure yesterday was soooooo sweet for ole Marty. He got to defeat his replacement AND his replacement's replacement in one day!!!! ROFL

If it would burn King Carl's azz, I'll root for Marty to get to the dance. We could start an alumni of folks Carl dumped and got there before he did.
Eat a turd, traitor...

BigChiefFan
11-29-2004, 11:19 AM
I'm sure yesterday was soooooo sweet for ole Marty. He got to defeat his replacement AND his replacement's replacement in one day!!!! ROFL

If it would burn King Carl's azz, I'll root for Marty to get to the dance. We could start an alumni of folks Carl dumped and got there before he did.
Please quit calling yourself a Chief fan. It's a farce on your part.

KCJohnny
11-29-2004, 11:21 AM
Eat a turd, traitor...

Class. Real class. :shake:

Lzen
11-29-2004, 11:24 AM
I'm not sure why Marty would enjoy a win over the Chiefs like Dumbneese thinks. He did resign after the 1998 season. Nobody fired him. It's not like he left on bad terms or anything.

KC Dan
11-29-2004, 11:24 AM
Here's some more class for you -

F*CK Marty!!! He is not a Chief and I could care less if he goes 16-0 or 0-16 but I vote for 0-16. The only way I root for the dolts is against the donks or faiders. The only time - period. Otherwise, I want all of theother AFCW teams to lose each and every week.

Baby Lee
11-29-2004, 11:25 AM
Class. Real class. :shake:
Did I miss a memo? Are we treating Mememe with class nowadays?

memyselfI
11-29-2004, 11:26 AM
Class. Real class. :shake:

Have mercy on them for they do not know what it feels like to get to the SB like some who have parted ways with King Carl have done. ;)

Baby Lee
11-29-2004, 11:26 AM
Have mercy on them for they do not know what it feels like to get to the SB like some who have parted ways with King Carl have done. ;)
Yeah, I hear it's neckbrace-tastic!!!

memyselfI
11-29-2004, 11:31 AM
Yeah, I hear it's neckbrace-tastic!!!

Yeah, it's sort of like that old saying about love...

it's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. :clap:

Dartgod
11-29-2004, 11:32 AM
Class. Real class. :shake:
Don't pretend as if Duh-nese has any class at all in order for you to feel morally superior. You've been around here long enough to know she doesn't. But then again, you are nearly the same as her in your desire to see the Chiefs fail so you can play the "I told you so" card. It's really quite juvenile...

ChiTown
11-29-2004, 11:34 AM
Class. Real class. :shake:

Yeah, we should have more class like you. You know, a guy that likes to keep starting a shit storm relative to re-living the Marty years every time the Chiefs lose.

Screw you, dead horse beater......

Brock
11-29-2004, 11:34 AM
Don't pretend as if Duh-nese has any class at all in order for you to feel morally superior. You've been around here long enough to know she doesn't. But then again, you are nearly the same as her in your desire to see the Chiefs fail so you can play the "I told you so" card. It's really quite juvenile...


Aww, lay off poor ol' KCJ. He's just here in the interests of brotherly discourse.

BigChiefFan
11-29-2004, 11:34 AM
Have mercy on them for they do not know what it feels like to get to the SB like some who have parted ways with King Carl have done. ;)

I don't like Carl either, but that doesn't mean I root for other teams and their players because we chose not to re-sign them. You take great pride in rubbing shit back in our faces because it somehow justifies(to you) that you are somehow superior in your football intellect. Bringing up the past from 4 years ago is living in the past and has little to no relevancy to the Chiefs and their fans other than to give you something to toot your own horn and be able to say I told you so. Well what exactly have you told us? That Carl made a mistake in letting a journeyman QB over the age of 30 go and you didn't like it so it's become your mantra? You beat that war drum over and over and over and for what purpose other than self-serving your ego. Get over it!!!!!!!

The Bad Guy
11-29-2004, 11:34 AM
Class. Real class. :shake:

Like you know anything about class.

ChiTown
11-29-2004, 11:36 AM
Aww, lay off poor ol' KCJ. He's just here in the interests of brotherly discourse.

That, and to remind everyone that he's served his Country.

Lzen
11-29-2004, 11:38 AM
Don't pretend as if Duh-nese has any class at all in order for you to feel morally superior. You've been around here long enough to know she doesn't. But then again, you are nearly the same as her in your desire to see the Chiefs fail so you can play the "I told you so" card. It's really quite juvenile...

Heh, sounds like someone else we all know. Cough....cough.....Jim.....cough.

Dartgod
11-29-2004, 11:40 AM
Heh, sounds like someone else we all know. Cough....cough.....Jim.....cough.
I see what you're thinking, but no way Jim is in the same category as these two traitors.

memyselfI
11-29-2004, 11:40 AM
I don't like Carl either, but that doesn't mean I root for other teams and their players because we chose not to re-sign them. You take great pride in rubbing shit back in our faces because it somehow justifies(to you) that you are somehow superior in your football intellect. Bringing up the past from 4 years ago is living in the past and has little to no relevancy to the Chiefs and their fans other than to give you something to toot your own horn and be able to say I told you so. Well what exactly have you told us? That Carl made a mistake in letting a journeyman QB over the age of 30 go and you didn't like it so it's become your mantra? You beat that war drum over and over and over and for what purpose other than self-serving your ego. Get over it!!!!!!!

Dude, this team will not win a damn thing with 4x5 year plan Carl. It's not about Gannon anymore...

The Bad Guy
11-29-2004, 11:40 AM
That, and to remind everyone that he's served his Country.

I'm waiting for the "I had too many beers" disclaimer at the top of this post.

He does that so people actually give him another chance and don't see through how much of a douchebag he really is.

KC Dan
11-29-2004, 11:41 AM
Here's some more class for you -

F*CK Marty!!! He is not a Chief and I could care less if he goes 16-0 or 0-16 but I vote for 0-16. The only way I root for the dolts is against the donks or faiders. The only time - period. Otherwise, I want all of theother AFCW teams to lose each and every week.
I forgot to add, F*CK the Faiders also!!! And those faider fans that pretend to be Chiefs fans & yes, I remember what it is like to be on a SB run you idiot... Find a faider board and go away.

BigChiefFan
11-29-2004, 11:43 AM
Dude, this team will not win a damn thing with 4x5 year plan Carl. It's not about Gannon anymore...Then why did you say this... Originally Posted by memyselfI
"Have mercy on them for they do not know what it feels like to get to the SB like some who have parted ways with King Carl have done."


That sounds like a Gannon reference if I've ever heard one. You're busted, now go root for the fade and quit pretending to be a Chief.

Baby Lee
11-29-2004, 11:45 AM
Yeah, it's sort of like that old saying about love...

it's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. :clap:
As much as I hate the way the Chiefs are playing these days, I still prefer it to the fortunes of the Raiders since Barrett Robbins went batsh!t insane. And that INCLUDES, indeed is centered on, their poopypants performance in the SB.

memyselfI
11-29-2004, 11:53 AM
Then why did you say this... Originally Posted by memyselfI
"Have mercy on them for they do not know what it feels like to get to the SB like some who have parted ways with King Carl have done."


That sounds like a Gannon reference if I've ever heard one. You're busted, now go root for the fade and quit pretending to be a Chief.


Is Gannon the only player or coach who has made it to a SB before King Carl???

I don't think so...

memyselfI
11-29-2004, 11:55 AM
As much as I hate the way the Chiefs are playing these days, I still prefer it to the fortunes of the Raiders since Barrett Robbins went batsh!t insane. And that INCLUDES, indeed is centered on, their poopypants performance in the SB.

I used to think that losing all the time felt better than losing big time...

but I realized that is a loser attitude and every winner has lost big time at least one time. Every loser accepts losing all the time as preferable...probably because they realize it's all they got.

Brock
11-29-2004, 11:56 AM
Every loser accepts losing all the time as preferable...

Like that time "management was restructurin'."

Bearcat
11-29-2004, 12:03 PM
Coaching is overrated... basically the same team that could have gotten Marty fired is now doing well, and basically the same team that made everyone think the Chiefs were SB favorites this year, sucks. Marty, DV, whoever is on the sidelines doesn't miss field goals, doesn't fumble, etc. While, obviously, the coaching staff is an important part of overcoming the on & off field adversity, in the end both coaches have ended up in the same spot with the Chiefs -- watching the SB from a recliner.

None of it makes you right in thinking that one coach is better than the other, or that one system is better than the other, because the outcome has always been the same. Even if the Chargers win the SB this year, it still won't make you right, because it's a totally different situation than Kansas City. But, by all means, keep telling us I told you so.

memyselfI
11-29-2004, 12:09 PM
Coaching is overrated...

and this is why King Carl believed he could simply replace the coach he'd run out of town four years ago and the worst D in the league would suddenly be improved?

If you are right then Carl should be fired YESTERDAY!!!!

BigChiefFan
11-29-2004, 12:14 PM
Is Gannon the only player or coach who has made it to a SB before King Carl???

I don't think so...
That's NOT what you said, spinmeister. You said and I quote...Originally Posted by memyselfI
"Have mercy on them for they do not know what it feels like to get to the SB like some who have parted ways with King Carl have done."
Players who have PARTED with Carl Peterson, that implies players who used to be a Chief and we all know you are obsessed with Gannon. Keep spinning, the hole's getting deeper and deeper for you.

memyselfI
11-29-2004, 12:17 PM
That's NOT what you said, spinmeister. You said and I quote...Originally Posted by memyselfI
"Have mercy on them for they do not know what it feels like to get to the SB like some who have parted ways with King Carl have done."
Players who have PARTED with Carl Peterson, that implies players who used to be a Chief and we all know you are obsessed with Gannon. Keep spinning, the hole's getting deeper and deeper for you.

players would indicate PLURAL. :rolleyes: ROFL

SOME would indicate plural.


this would indicate plural:

We could start an alumni of folks Carl dumped and got there before he did.

BigChiefFan
11-29-2004, 12:22 PM
players would indicate PLURAL. :rolleyes: ROFL

SOME would indicate plural.


this would indicate plural:

We could start an alumni of folks Carl dumped and got there before he did.
I realize there is actually more than ONE player that Carl parted ways with, gee imagine that. It's a known fact that you are obsessed with Gannon and reading your quote implies that Gannon is definitely included in with those playerS, right? Keep on wiggling.

memyselfI
11-29-2004, 12:23 PM
I realize there is actually more than ONE player that Carl parted ways with, gee imagine that. It's a known fact that you are obsessed with Gannon and reading your quote implies that Gannon is definitely included in with those playerS, right? Keep on wiggling.


Sure it does. ROFL

BigChiefFan
11-29-2004, 12:24 PM
Sure it does. ROFL
I knew it did, it's the basis of all your Chiefs hatred.

Chiefnj
11-29-2004, 12:25 PM
I think Marty had a voice in the past few drafts and he got some good defensive backs and linebackers. I give him credit for building a young, exciting defense. I also give him credit for not completely ruining Brees although he did a good job trying to achieve that goal.

memyselfI
11-29-2004, 12:26 PM
I knew it did, it's the basis of all your Chiefs hatred.

Dang you are slow today...

I was being sarcastic.

Of course I included Gannon in the alumni of folks who got to the SB before Carl...

it's true. Perhaps Marty will be there as well. I know a number of players have left Carl, that was not my point. Rather, the ones who've won playoff games and got to the dance while he's still waiting to go. THEY were my point.

BigChiefFan
11-29-2004, 12:31 PM
Dang you are slow today...

I was being sarcastic.

Of course I included Gannon in the alumni of folks who got to the SB before Carl...

it's true. Perhaps Marty will be there as well. I know a number of players have left Carl, that was not my point. Rather, the ones who've won playoff games and got to the dance while he's still waiting to go. THEY were my point.
So you are admitting that you are jaded and biased? Because you can't just use the players that have gone all the way to the big dance and not include those that fell on their face after they left the Chiefs. That by definition is a double-standard.


Not letting Denise have her cake and eat it, too.

memyselfI
11-29-2004, 01:00 PM
So you are admitting that you are jaded and biased? Because you can't just use the players that have gone all the way to the big dance and not include those that fell on their face after they left the Chiefs. That by definition is a double-standard.


Not letting Denise have her cake and eat it, too.

So we are holding those who 'fell on their face' standard as a/our measure???

Hum, frankly I hold higher standards than that...but that does explain alot of how SOME Chiefs fans could still willingly believe that Carl knows WTF he's doing.

dtebbe
11-29-2004, 02:05 PM
It may have taken Marty 10 years, but he finally changed his philosophy. I STILL say he's been getting some on the side. Some guys buy a Corvette, Marty decided to throw the football.

DT

BigChiefFan
11-29-2004, 02:20 PM
So we are holding those who 'fell on their face' standard as a/our measure???

Hum, frankly I hold higher standards than that...but that does explain alot of how SOME Chiefs fans could still willingly believe that Carl knows WTF he's doing.
There's a difference between being objective and jaded. You are jaded. You hate EVERYTHING Carl does regardless. As much as I don't have confidence in his drafting or FA, I also realize he has done some good things, which you want to sweep under the rug, evidenced by your "higher standards" comment. Thus disregarding sticking to the actual discussion and avoiding what I am bringing up in the first place. I'm not interested in your deflecting what is actually being brought up. Put your ego aside and get some substance to your comments, then maybe we can get down to brass tacks.