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View Full Version : What should the Chiefs do with a top 5 pick? Free agency and NFL draft strategy....


John_Wayne
11-29-2004, 08:33 AM
Obviously, we don't know what's going to happen yet, but the Chiefs may get a top 5 pick in the NFL draft. If we do have a top 5 pick, what should be done with it? Since we need soooooooo many upgrades on defense, should we trade down and accumulate picks? Or should we get one defensive stud from the draft? Should we go for quantity or quality? I know it's early to talk about this, but it's the only "light at the end of the tunnel" that I can think of to talk about. This season is over. I want the Chiefs to win, but I also see a silver lineing with every loss. Another loss gets us closer to a top 5 draft pick.

Here's another question: How many new players on D will it take to get a top 10 defense? 3 new players? 11 new players? 5 new players? Which positions? I think the most critical positions are CB, MLB & DE in that order. I think it'll take 3 new players and some shuffling of current players. Woods could be demoted or cut, while Harts or Pile could be promoted. Hicks and/or Holliday could be demoted or cut, while Allen could be promoted. Beisel and Mitchel may be better suited to play OLB. Warfield could be a serviceable #2 CB if we aquire a true #1 stud CB. McCleon and Bartee could be serviceable #3 and #4 CB's. Sapp is developmental. I think Battle is a lost cause. I think we leave the middle of the D-line alone. It's not great yet, but it's probably the best part of our D. We've got to stick with Simms and Siavii. I wouldn't care if Browning gets cut. Daulton has played well.

Yet another question: What positions should be obtained from the draft and what positions should be obtained through free agency? Yes, I think it makes a difference. If you are rebuilding or if you are one or two players away from a Super Bowl, the strategy changes, IMHO. I think a CB and MLB need to come from free agency. I think it is rare that a rookie CB or MLB can be effective or make an impact. Therefore, since we've got one more year left to get a Super Bowl ring, we need to go with veteran, free agent CB and MLB that can step right in. On the other hand, I think a rookie DE and WR from the draft can step in and make a difference quickly. Tha'ts my strategy: get a CB and MLB from free agency and a DE and WR as high draft picks. I would say we should draft the WR in the 1st round and the DE as our second round pick. The rest (OLB, QB, FB, OT, S, C, G) is just gravy and it doesn't matter as much if they come from free agency or the draft.

Here's our needs, IMHO, in order of importance: CB, WR, MLB, DE, OLB, QB, FB, OT, S, C, G. What do you think? Do you agree?

ROYC75
11-29-2004, 08:36 AM
See what's available in FA first, same as always, address the needs in the draft.

As for playmakers, we need to find 4 of them on defense, we have none to speak of. CB,MLB,DE,SS , find me 4 playmakers at those positions, we will be better.

How we get them is not of importance, just getting them is.

Wile_E_Coyote
11-29-2004, 08:39 AM
the top draft picks from last year didn't get signed until after the season started. That's why Brees is even playing

jcroft
11-29-2004, 08:39 AM
"Playmaker" is the key word. We need some guys who can make things happen. My hunch is that this probably doesn't happen by trading down to accumulate picks. I suspect that trading down would net us four okay players, none of which could really be called "playmakers." I'd rather have one "playmaker," myself.

Hopefully we can address a few needs in FA so that we can go into the draft looking for one stud player who can contribute right away and make some big plays.

But, that's being pretty optimistic, give...well, Carl.

BigRedChief
11-29-2004, 08:43 AM
As long as King Carl is in charge why does it matter? He will blow the draft pick anyway.

John_Wayne
11-29-2004, 09:10 AM
See what's available in FA first, same as always, address the needs in the draft.

As for playmakers, we need to find 4 of them on defense, we have none to speak of. CB,MLB,DE,SS , find me 4 playmakers at those positions, we will be better.

How we get them is not of importance, just getting them is.

I agree with your 4 players. But I think we could get by withour a S. Maybe Pile or Harts could fill in for Woods. What about WR? Where does a WR factor in?

Rain Man
11-29-2004, 09:15 AM
It's pretty obvious that we need talent on the defense, and trading down isn't going to do it. A top-five or top-eight pick will probably get us a stud player, and like it or not, Carl's record on first-round picks is at least average. I'd love to see us nail that pick with a top-notch OLB, MLB, or CB.

Now, the second-round pick is another story. Our record on second-round picks is abysmal. We should just randomly pick a guy off of some fantasy football mock draft rather than let Carl draft another "project." Projects are for the sixth round, and I'm sure tired of drafting them in the second.

ROYC75
11-29-2004, 09:18 AM
I agree with your 4 players. But I think we could get by withour a S. Maybe Pile or Harts could fill in for Woods. What about WR? Where does a WR factor in?


Now I'm going to use a (future ) DV qoute here.... We will have Boe, Parker, Smith and Booth to compete with our returning starters next year, so I don't see a problem right now.
:hmmm:

Our biggest concern is the defense ! Sure the offense sucked to start the year, who's to say they would have if everybody would have been healthy ?

I say we go defense , all defense tis year due to the age and our declining window of oppertunity.

John_Wayne
11-29-2004, 09:32 AM
Now I'm going to use a (future ) DV qoute here.... We will have Boe, Parker, Smith and Booth to compete with our returning starters next year, so I don't see a problem right now.
:hmmm:

Our biggest concern is the defense ! Sure the offense sucked to start the year, who's to say they would have if everybody would have been healthy ?

I say we go defense , all defense tis year due to the age and our declining window of oppertunity.

I forgot about Boerigter. That's a good point. But, we still need a future stud WR. Kennison and Morton are old. Also, I have hope, but little faith in Horn, Parker, Smith, McIntyre and/or Booth. This is what I'd like to see:

#1 WR - draft
Boerigter
Kennison
Morton
Hall - situational

Cut McIntyre, Booth & Smith. Keep Horn's number handy. Develop Parker.

jcroft
11-29-2004, 09:35 AM
We could really use a WR, but defense is far more important right now. We can win the Superbowl with THESE wideouts. We can not win the Superbowl with these defensive players. If we can sign a good young WR in free agency, then let's do it. But we can't break the bank on that, because it's a secondary need at this time. Defense is much more important.

ChiTown
11-29-2004, 09:37 AM
I forgot about Boerigter. That's a good point. But, we still need a future stud WR. Kennison and Morton are old. Also, I have hope, but little faith in Horn, Parker, Smith, McIntyre and/or Booth. This is what I'd like to see:

#1 WR - draft
Boerigter
Kennison
Morton
Hall - situational

Cut McIntyre, Booth & Smith. Keep Horn's number handy. Develop Parker.


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

The above list of WR's is exactly why we can't make a comeback in the 4th qtr. WTF would you want to see them all return? Unreal...........

jcroft
11-29-2004, 09:38 AM
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

The above list of WR's is exactly why we can't make a comeback in the 4th qtr. WTF would you want to see them all return? Unreal...........

Yes, but if we had a defense that could stop someone, our offense's 30+ points wouldn't <em>require</em> a comback in the 4th quarter -- we'd already be in the lead.

ChiTown
11-29-2004, 09:43 AM
Yes, but if we had a defense that could stop someone, our offense's 30+ points wouldn't <em>require</em> a comback in the 4th quarter -- we'd already be in the lead.

Yes, but we are dummying our offense because we have shit receivers that can't run routes and hold onto the fn ball. Bringing back those guys, along with Boe and a drat pick doesn't solve the offensive problems. Taking Hall, Morton and Kennison out of the 3 deep, and getting two legit WR's and draft pick would make more sense to me. Hall, should not be playing WR at all. He's been figured out (jam him hard at the line and he's done).

Braincase
11-29-2004, 09:50 AM
Based on our draft success, we should trade away all of our first, second and third round picks for additional 4th, 5th & 6th rounders.

Yes, I have no love for Sammie Parker & Keyaron Fox.

jcroft
11-29-2004, 09:59 AM
Yes, but we are dummying our offense because we have shit receivers that can't run routes and hold onto the fn ball. Bringing back those guys, along with Boe and a drat pick doesn't solve the offensive problems. Taking Hall, Morton and Kennison out of the 3 deep, and getting two legit WR's and draft pick would make more sense to me. Hall, should not be playing WR at all. He's been figured out (jam him hard at the line and he's done).

I completly agree with you that better wideouts would make our offense much better. I'm saying, though, that I think improving our defense is more important then improving our offense (whic is already pretty darn good).

JimNasium
11-29-2004, 10:08 AM
I have complete and total faith in Carl and believe that he could trade down and save our defense.

John_Wayne
11-29-2004, 10:10 AM
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

The above list of WR's is exactly why we can't make a comeback in the 4th qtr. WTF would you want to see them all return? Unreal........... What are you complaining about? That list gives us two new WR's. Both are potentially better than what we have now. Kennison and Morton as #3 and #4 WR would be the best #3 and #4 WR in the league. I'd only use Dante as a situational WR.

Rain Man
11-29-2004, 10:11 AM
I have complete and total faith in Carl and believe that he could trade down and save our defense.


Well, that's good enough for me.

BigChiefFan
11-29-2004, 10:12 AM
My plan would be to target and land Kendrell Bell in FA. MLB problem would be solved. I then would draft either Rolle or DJ. Either one would give us another playmaker on defense. This would depend on who's available in FA.

ChiTown
11-29-2004, 10:13 AM
What are you complaining about? That list gives us two new WR's. Both are potentially better than what we have now. Kennison and Morton as #3 and #4 WR would be the best #3 and #4 WR in the league. I'd only use Dante as a situational WR.

What? 1 new WR (draft pick)and a glorified TE playing WR (Boe). Boe is not the answer at WR. He's a #3 on his very best of days. You don't keep Morton and Kennison, maybe 1, but not both. Hall would never line up as a wr again unless it's as a decoy or in a reverse.

JimNasium
11-29-2004, 10:13 AM
Well, that's good enough for me.
You shouldn't listen to me though. Rumor has it that I might become a free-agent fan.

the Talking Can
11-29-2004, 10:16 AM
My plan would be to target and land Kendrell Bell in FA. MLB problem would be solved. I then would draft either Rolle or DJ. Either one would give us another playmaker on defense. This would depend on who's available in FA.

yeah we need a MLB and a WR in FA....then draft a CB #1 and a DE/LB in the 2nd....if we draft well we could turn the D around quick, but that's a lot of "ifs"...

Rain Man
11-29-2004, 10:18 AM
You shouldn't listen to me though. Rumor has it that I might become a free-agent fan.


Not a prayer. You know that they're going to franchise you. I think you could be the next Belly Boy with a little training and some nachos.

JimNasium
11-29-2004, 10:21 AM
yeah we need a MLB and a WR in FA....then draft a CB #1 and a DE/LB in the 2nd....if we draft well we could turn the D around quick, but that's a lot of "ifs"...
If ifs and buts were fruits and nuts than everyday would be Christmas. :p








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ROYC75
11-29-2004, 10:35 AM
It is probally best to address the defensive problems thru the FA. Our window is closing fast, we need players with proven back ground, guy who can step up now, not be a project for later times.

Use the draft to fill the needs we don't get in FA.

htismaqe
11-29-2004, 10:36 AM
It's time for people to wake up and realize that Marc Boerigter is a career 4th WR and special teamer and nothing more.

As for what we should do with a top 5 pick?

First, we need to get rid of Carl Peterson PRIOR TO THE DRAFT.

jcroft
11-29-2004, 10:43 AM
It's time for people to wake up and realize that Marc Boerigter is a career 4th WR and special teamer and nothing more.

As for what we should do with a top 5 pick?

First, we need to get rid of Carl Peterson PRIOR TO THE DRAFT.

I think you're probably right about Boe. Still, having him back should be a big boon for special teams, I think. He was by far our best gunner...

Cannibal
11-29-2004, 11:49 AM
If we do end up with a top 5 pick, we need to draft an impact player on D. This means we need to draft a DE imo. Rookie CB's always struggle and sometimes rookie LB's struggle.

I would draft a replacement for Hicks with that top 5 pick.

Then the starting D-line next year should be:

Allen
Dalton
Free Agent (hopefully an Upgrade)
Top 5 pick

Then I would also draft some LB's and Corners but they probably wouldn't be starting next year. Unless we struck gold and found a great MLB in the second round.

I would try to find to some playmakers in free agency to be starters on D. Hopefully at least one new UPGRADE on the DL, LB and secondary.

We also need to look at the draft for one of the Safety spots. Rookies can sometimes step in and play safety if they are talented.

JohnnyV13
11-29-2004, 12:10 PM
i'd target two ravens in FA....

1) Gary Baxter at corner and
2) Edgerton Hartwell for MLB

Not only are they good players, you have to like the Raven attitude. We could use some of it. Kendrell Bell gets hurt too often. Of course the problem is the Ravens might franchise one of those players. Then you go after the one that's not franchised.

This may sound crazy...but one of our biggest problems is we make dumb mistakes on D. We need a smart player on the field. If the price is right...we should go after Aeneus Williams of the Rams. God knows he could teach the corners techniques and help the safeties play smarter. Maybe our biggest need is a smart guy in the secondary meetings that helps the others break down opponents tendencies. That's a patriots type signing, the wiley veteran backup.

As for the draft..i think we take the best pass rusher available....b/c pass rushers are most likely to have impact their first year. Look at Kearse, Freeney, Suggs, Julius Peppers, and Kevin Williams all had big impacts their first year. If we are high enough...take the best pass rusher.

If the Ravens franchise Baxter and the Raiders franchise Woodson, then we probably will have to look at the draft for a CB instead of DE, and hope Jared Allen is the pass rusher we're looking for. The word on Allen is he lacks functional NFL strength but in practice he has shown good leverage. If he hits the weight room hard, he might improve considerably in his second year.

Rausch
11-29-2004, 12:19 PM
I'd like to see us take the most talented player available.

No playmakers on defense or at WR, we have no QBOTF and our best two offensive lineman are 32+...

BigChiefFan
11-29-2004, 12:19 PM
i'd target two ravens in FA....

1) Gary Baxter at corner and
2) Edgerton Hartwell for MLB

Not only are they good players, you have to like the Raven attitude. We could use some of it. Kendrell Bell gets hurt too often. Of course the problem is the Ravens might franchise one of those players. Then you go after the one that's not franchised.

This may sound crazy...but one of our biggest problems is we make dumb mistakes on D. We need a smart player on the field. If the price is right...we should go after Aeneus Williams of the Rams. God knows he could teach the corners techniques and help the safeties play smarter. Maybe our biggest need is a smart guy in the secondary meetings that helps the others break down opponents tendencies. That's a patriots type signing, the wiley veteran backup.

As for the draft..i think we take the best pass rusher available....b/c pass rushers are most likely to have impact their first year. Look at Kearse, Freeney, Suggs, Julius Peppers, and Kevin Williams all had big impacts their first year. If we are high enough...take the best pass rusher.

If the Ravens franchise Baxter and the Raiders franchise Woodson, then we probably will have to look at the draft for a CB instead of DE, and hope Jared Allen is the pass rusher we're looking for. The word on Allen is he lacks functional NFL strength but in practice he has shown good leverage. If he hits the weight room hard, he might improve considerably in his second year.
I'd sign Williams as Guinta's replacement, but no way would I sign him to a player's contract. That the Chiefs problem, they take players past their prime and continue to have to pay them when they don't pan out. We need a YOUTHFUL corner.

Chiefnj
11-29-2004, 12:22 PM
It's time to tear it down and rebuild.

Warfield might miss 4 games because of his DUI. That would mean the Chiefs need 2 starting CBs in addition to two LBs, a DE and a safety on defense. That's 6 players without even looking at the offense.

When is the last time the Chiefs were able to draft multiple players who started their first year and made an impact that helped turn the team around?

When is the last time the Chiefs signed multiple free agents who came in and played like the staff hoped they would?

I don't think the mess, that is the Chiefs, is capable of being fixed in one year. It might get them competitive, but enough for a Super Bowl run? I doubt it.

John_Wayne
11-29-2004, 12:32 PM
It's time to tear it down and rebuild.

Warfield might miss 4 games because of his DUI. That would mean the Chiefs need 2 starting CBs in addition to two LBs, a DE and a safety on defense. That's 6 players without even looking at the offense.

When is the last time the Chiefs were able to draft multiple players who started their first year and made an impact that helped turn the team around?

When is the last time the Chiefs signed multiple free agents who came in and played like the staff hoped they would?

I don't think the mess, that is the Chiefs, is capable of being fixed in one year. It might get them competitive, but enough for a Super Bowl run? I doubt it. :banghead:

Rausch
11-29-2004, 12:39 PM
It's time to tear it down and rebuild.

Warfield might miss 4 games because of his DUI. That would mean the Chiefs need 2 starting CBs in addition to two LBs, a DE and a safety on defense. That's 6 players without even looking at the offense.

When is the last time the Chiefs were able to draft multiple players who started their first year and made an impact that helped turn the team around?

When is the last time the Chiefs signed multiple free agents who came in and played like the staff hoped they would?

I don't think the mess, that is the Chiefs, is capable of being fixed in one year. It might get them competitive, but enough for a Super Bowl run? I doubt it.

I don't think we need two DE's. Our front 4 have played great this year. Holliday needs to hit the road, but Allen and Hicks have done well. Dalton, Sims, and Jr are a solid rotation at DT.

Our problem is MLB and secondary. Even when the front 4 get pressure our coverage is still piss poor.

go bowe
11-29-2004, 12:44 PM
It's time to tear it down and rebuild.

Warfield might miss 4 games because of his DUI. That would mean the Chiefs need 2 starting CBs in addition to two LBs, a DE and a safety on defense. That's 6 players without even looking at the offense.

When is the last time the Chiefs were able to draft multiple players who started their first year and made an impact that helped turn the team around?

When is the last time the Chiefs signed multiple free agents who came in and played like the staff hoped they would?

I don't think the mess, that is the Chiefs, is capable of being fixed in one year. It might get them competitive, but enough for a Super Bowl run? I doubt it.that's the problem...

there are too many holes to fill and the chief's record with both high draft picks and fa's really sucks, so how can we realistically expect to substantially improve the d in one year?

the real problem is carl and the personnel/scouting department, and that problem doesn't look like it's going to get fixed any time soon... :( :( :(

go bowe
11-29-2004, 12:51 PM
I don't think we need two DE's. Our front 4 have played great this year. Holliday needs to hit the road, but Allen and Hicks have done well. Dalton, Sims, and Jr are a solid rotation at DT.

Our problem is MLB and secondary. Even when the front 4 get pressure our coverage is still piss poor.assuming that allen will hit the weights this offseason and adds strength and bulk, and improves his technique on run plays, he should be good enough that we can use the draft and fa to improve at other positions...

same with hicks, there are too many other positions that need improvement even worse (but i still wouldn't be disappointed if we took a stud de in the draft)...

if we don't keep browning or if we continue to use him at de (which seems to be working all right), we're gonna need a fourth dt for the rotation (but that can come from a mid round draft pick, hopefully)...

i agree that jr. should be adequate in the rotation (and should be much improved with coaching and study during the offseason and another tc to work on his technique)...

the front 4 is not the area of our greatest need for improvement...

Gaz
11-29-2004, 01:08 PM
The “tear it all down and start over” approach may be cathartic, but it is not a viable option in the salary-capped NFL.

The weakest section of our team is clearly Defense, so that is the section that gets the most help.

Defense
1. MLB
2. CB
3. OLB [I have serious doubts about Barber returning]
Dalton, Sims & Siavii are serviceable at DT. And I will take Allen and Hicks at DE. Sure, I would like to upgrade from Hicks, but there are areas of more pressing need. Similarly, I will take Wesley and Harts as my starting Safeties. IMO, the biggest hole in our Defense is the LB position. Yes, I hear you folks wailing “Cornerback, Gaz, Cornerback!” And I agree that we need a better CB than Bartee, but I see MLB as a bigger hole right now. It saddens me that I am going to have to give up on Mitchell, but he is just not getting it. He is regularly out of position [or moved out of position].

Offense
1. WR
I am concerned about the age of our OL, but they are not old enough that we cannot get another season out of them. I expect our RBs next season to be Holmes and Johnson. I wish no ill to Blaylock, but I believe that Johnson is going to be #2 and I doubt Blaylock will be satisfied with a distant 3rd on the depth chart.

How do we get there?
I would draft for the Defensive help and go FA for the WR.

xoxo~
Gaz
Concedes there is some appeal to the “scorched earth” concept.

go bowe
11-29-2004, 01:19 PM
The “tear it all down and start over” approach may be cathartic, but it is not a viable option in the salary-capped NFL.

The weakest section of our team is clearly Defense, so that is the section that gets the most help.

Defense
1. MLB
2. CB
3. OLB [I have serious doubts about Barber returning]
Dalton, Sims & Siavii are serviceable at DT. And I will take Allen and Hicks at DE. Sure, I would like to upgrade from Hicks, but there are areas of more pressing need. Similarly, I will take Wesley and Harts as my starting Safeties. IMO, the biggest hole in our Defense is the LB position. Yes, I hear you folks wailing “Cornerback, Gaz, Cornerback!” And I agree that we need a better CB than Bartee, but I see MLB as a bigger hole right now. It saddens me that I am going to have to give up on Mitchell, but he is just not getting it. He is regularly out of position [or moved out of position].

Offense
1. WR
I am concerned about the age of our OL, but they are not old enough that we cannot get another season out of them. I expect our RBs next season to be Holmes and Johnson. I wish no ill to Blaylock, but I believe that Johnson is going to be #2 and I doubt Blaylock will be satisfied with a distant 3rd on the depth chart.

How do we get there?
I would draft for the Defensive help and go FA for the WR.

xoxo~
Gaz
Concedes there is some appeal to the “scorched earth” concept.
i pretty much agree with you, but i'd give mitchell a full offseason/tc under gun before giving up on him... gun did wonders with the lbs when he was with the titans...

and while i am sure that you would draft well to fill some of our needs on defense, i have no confidence at all that carl and co. can succeed in that area... :( :( :(

Chiefnj
11-29-2004, 01:29 PM
I think the whole [player X] is "serviceable" approach is the reason why the Chiefs haven't done squat in years. Accepting mediocrity breeds mediocrity.

I don't want two serviceable receivers. I want a #1 guy who can go out and catch some TD's on the Bailey's and Buchanon's and Jammer's in our division.

I don't want a serviceable Hicks. I want a defensive end who teams have to game plan against and keep in extra protection on every down. I want a guy who isn't going to be an agreeable gent in the lockerroom in the midst of a 5 game losing streak.

I don't wan't serviceable linebackers. I want guys who can make a read, get in position and tackle the runner. Serviceable has gotten us Mitchell, Caver, Beisel and Fujita.

I'd go into the secondary, but it's too damn painful and I'm sure you get my point.

tk13
11-29-2004, 01:42 PM
I think we'll probably go after a CB for no other reason than Warfield's problem. Really though I don't know if we need more than one new corner, if that. I think Warfield and Bartee would look 1000 times better if they had any help from the safeties. If you watched ESPN last night you saw that even Champ Bailey himself can't always hang with the elite WR's in the league having to defend deep down the field all by himself because the front four can't get pressure. Give me a good LB or two and a good DE so that the front 7 can pressure the QB all the time, the corners would look better. I think the difference in the first and second halves of the Indy game is a good example of that.

It's kind of funny, CB's the one area I thought we needed to improve last offseason, now I think they'd be alright if they had better safety play and somebody (*cough* Derrick Johnson *cough*) who could fly in and kill the QB....

BigChiefFan
11-29-2004, 01:54 PM
I think the whole [player X] is "serviceable" approach is the reason why the Chiefs haven't done squat in years. Accepting mediocrity breeds mediocrity.

I don't want two serviceable receivers. I want a #1 guy who can go out and catch some TD's on the Bailey's and Buchanon's and Jammer's in our division.

I don't want a serviceable Hicks. I want a defensive end who teams have to game plan against and keep in extra protection on every down. I want a guy who isn't going to be an agreeable gent in the lockerroom in the midst of a 5 game losing streak.

I don't wan't serviceable linebackers. I want guys who can make a read, get in position and tackle the runner. Serviceable has gotten us Mitchell, Caver, Beisel and Fujita.

I'd go into the secondary, but it's too damn painful and I'm sure you get my point.
Agreed. If we are sitting there and Rolle or DJ is available and we trade down, I will have lost all hope on the Chiefs FO. We NEED QUALITY, not quanity. Our LBers suck much ass-I don't think there is a worse unit in the league and it's been that way for 5 plus years, not real encouraging, but I'm still hopeful even Carl and company can't screw up if DJ or Rolle is still available. We keep taking too many risks on projects and not enough on players that have football skills IMO. Rolle or DJ is a no-brainer and I will go apeshit if we trade thinking that is the way to improve. We have plenty of quanity and warm bodies going through the motions, we need playmakers and by God, Carl better deliver. This is getting down-right putrid with our defensive acquisitions in recent years and trading down would officially make me throw in the towel on getting to the Super Bowl under Carl's tenure. I'm already close to giving up on him.

Cannibal
11-29-2004, 07:11 PM
I don't think we need two DE's. Our front 4 have played great this year. Holliday needs to hit the road, but Allen and Hicks have done well. Dalton, Sims, and Jr are a solid rotation at DT.

Our problem is MLB and secondary. Even when the front 4 get pressure our coverage is still piss poor.

Ever since Hick's 14 sack season, he has had:

2001 - 3.5
2002 - 9
2003 - 5
2004 - 3

Bottom line is that he basically sucks arse. We need a real pass rusher on that side of the ball. Having two dominant pass rushers helps the secondary that much more... i.e. Smith/Thomas.

We can't use that top 5 pick on CB because rookie corners ALWAYS struggle for a season or two. We need to use that top 5 pick on a DE who can contribute during his rookie season. We need to upgrade at LB in the second round and at CB thru free agency if any decent corners are available.

I would use the draft for a corner or two, just not early. We can't afford to burn that top 5 pick on a player that won't contribute immediately IMO. That is, unless you're willing to basically sacrifice next season waiting for that player to develop.

Alphaman
11-29-2004, 08:19 PM
I think we need to completely overhaul our LB corp.

Misdirection plays (reverses, naked boots, etc...) kill us because of a lack of instinct and feel for the game. I know they are coached to see something and attack and appear over aggressive. But teams like Pittsburgh and Baltimore are too. The difference is that they see (or feel) misdirection (especially the LBs) and blow it up. Plus when they make a tackle, the runner knows he's been hit. We've had very few extremely physical, jarring hits from our LBs this year. Mitchell has had a few solid tackles, but nothing that jars the teeth.

Derrick Johnson, Ed Hartwell and Kendrell Bell is a real possibility if we go for it. Hartwell has been in Ray Lewis' shadow and may not be overly expensive. Bell will be coming off injury and shouldn't be overly expensive. Johnson will be there for us drfating #4 (as of today). He's a tremendous athlete who hits people. He caused 8 fumbles this year.

Further we need a CB in free agency. A top notch CB. Free agency not the draft. Why? Because a vet will have an immediate impact out on the island that a rookie will be exposed on. Woodson, Smoot, or Baxter from Baltimore.

Finally we need 2 new WRs in free agency. Young, fast ascending guys. Kennison and Morton are having above average seasons, but I don't think they'll improve on that, and we can get their performance and more from new guys. Jerry Porter and David Givens are my choices.

So there you have my offseason:

Free Agents signed: Woodson, Bell, Hartwell, Porter and Givens

1st and 2nd round picks: Derrick Johnson, OLB, TX and Chris Canty, DE, Virginia

Players cut: Holliday, Barber, Jones, Caver, McCleon, Kennison, Morton, Easy.

I'd carry 6 WRs next year: Porter, Givens, Boerigter, Hall, Smith, Parker

Wilson would be the backup FB and the 3rd TE.

Rausch
11-29-2004, 08:27 PM
I've really liked what I've seen of Bell.

Unfortunately Mizzou and the Noles have sucked Dole-pudding for two years now and my knowledge of college players is about nil...

SNR
11-29-2004, 11:38 PM
IMO, the biggest hole in our Defense is the LB position. Yes, I hear you folks wailing “Cornerback, Gaz, Cornerback!” And I agree that we need a better CB than Bartee, but I see MLB as a bigger hole right now. It saddens me that I am going to have to give up on Mitchell, but he is just not getting it. He is regularly out of position [or moved out of position].

*Ahem*

[See signature]

patteeu
11-30-2004, 12:14 AM
We could really use a WR, but defense is far more important right now. We can win the Superbowl with THESE wideouts. We can not win the Superbowl with these defensive players. If we can sign a good young WR in free agency, then let's do it. But we can't break the bank on that, because it's a secondary need at this time. Defense is much more important.

If our offense hadn't sputtered so frequently this season (especially in the 4th quarter), we could have been serious contenders for the Division crown THIS season even with our defensive problems. I'm not necessarily arguing for a WR over a defender, but if we have a choice between a superstar WR or a solid defender, I'll take the superstar. If all other things are equal though, I'd go with a dominating defender.

Gaz
11-30-2004, 05:17 AM
I think the whole [player X] is "serviceable" approach is the reason why the Chiefs haven't done squat in years. Accepting mediocrity breeds mediocrity...

You missed the point. ALL of us would love to have superstars at every position, but that simply cannot happen. We have to address the really bad holes and accept “serviceable” because that is how the rules are set up. You have to balance immediate needs with future needs and cap implications.

It is all well and good to say “I want.” How about sharing how you plan to pay for it?

xoxo~
Gaz
Interested, but very skeptical.

Gaz
11-30-2004, 05:23 AM
patteeu-

Yes, the Offense choked away opportunities to win the game in each of our losses [and I have takes some pretty harsh abuse for pointing that out]. The D played pretty much as anticipated. The O seriously underperformed.

However, I believe that the root cause of our losing season is the Defense. Specifically, the wretched pass Defense. There is nothing to be done for it this season, but the off-season should be spent on correcting that deficiency.

I would go for a WR in FA, but the return of Boerigter and the much-anticipated debut of Wilson might put that in doubt. The draft should belong entirely to the Defense.

xoxo~
Gaz
Accepts the fact of a crappy D this season, but expects a lot better next season.

Gaz
11-30-2004, 05:47 AM
*Ahem*

[See signature]

Sorry, man. I use “At Work” mode and have not seen a signature line for a long time.

xoxo~
Gaz
Blissfully blind.

Alphaman
11-30-2004, 06:04 AM
patteeu-

Yes, the Offense choked away opportunities to win the game in each of our losses [and I have takes some pretty harsh abuse for pointing that out]. The D played pretty much as anticipated. The O seriously underperformed.

However, I believe that the root cause of our losing season is the Defense. Specifically, the wretched pass Defense. There is nothing to be done for it this season, but the off-season should be spent on correcting that deficiency.

I would go for a WR in FA, but the return of Boerigter and the much-anticipated debut of Wilson might put that in doubt. The draft should belong entirely to the Defense.

xoxo~
Gaz
Accepts the fact of a crappy D this season, but expects a lot better next season.



I agree that one of our two main problems has been the defense, particularly the LBs and the pass defense. The other is offensive proficiency (or lack thereof).

I really don't think we can ignore the offense in free agency and the draft. Bottom line for me is that we need to overhaul the LB corp, get a stud CB and a DE that can be part of the rotation in 2005 and take Hicks' starting spot in 2006.

IMHO, we MUST replace Kennison and Morton now (at a minimum one of them). They are having decent seasons, but I truly believe this is their peak year with KC. They will decline next year. They've already started breaking down with injuries in camp and have both had big drops and fumbles in their best year with us.

My offseason plan will require some cash to be spent, some cap management and some guts (none of which I'm convinced Carl will display).

In a nutshell:


Free Agents signed: Woodson, Bell, Hartwell, Porter and Givens

1st and 2nd round picks: Derrick Johnson, OLB, TX and Chris Canty, DE, Virginia

If we keep the 3rd round pick that looked like it was going to Philly: David Green - QB - Georgia

Players cut: Holliday, Barber, Jones, Caver, McCleon, Kennison, Morton, Easy.

Rausch
11-30-2004, 06:10 AM
patteeu-

Yes, the Offense choked away opportunities to win the game in each of our losses [and I have takes some pretty harsh abuse for pointing that out]. The D played pretty much as anticipated. The O seriously underperformed.

However, I believe that the root cause of our losing season is the Defense. Specifically, the wretched pass Defense. There is nothing to be done for it this season, but the off-season should be spent on correcting that deficiency.

I would go for a WR in FA, but the return of Boerigter and the much-anticipated debut of Wilson might put that in doubt. The draft should belong entirely to the Defense.



I have to admit I'm surprised to hear this from the Gaz-ster. This year we have been good, but not great, at rushing 4 and getting to the pencil-neck and crushing him. A good pass rush, which should be helping our coverage, but isn't.

If the QB only has 3 or 4 seconds and still manages to complete the pass, consistently, in the face of a solid pass rush it is hard to argue your secondary isn't hurting for talent. Warfield looks like solid no 2 CB material, but we need a true no 1 guy there. Woods looks to have fallen a good deal down the ladder from his probowl form. I think we could move McCling-on to FS and be ok if we manage a true no 1 CB in free agency. A young CB in the draft won't develop enough to help us this year. I'd argue we should go CB in FA and WR in the draft for just that reason.

We need hands (that can consistently catch the ball) at WR and talent at MLB. Either position would be smart to take in the 1st and I think either could help us immediately next year...

Gaz
11-30-2004, 07:13 AM
Rausch-

I agree that we need another CB. I hoped that since Gunther wanted Bartee that Bartee would be a good fit in the new scheme. That hope appears to be without foundation. Battle looked lost when he was in there and I do not know enough about Sapp to make a call on him. So, yes, we need a CB.

Personally, I think MLB is a need more dire than CB [although not by a landslide]. We also need an OLB, even if Barber does recover from his injury.

A bit further down the list is WR. Yes, Morton and Kennison are aging and I would like to have upgrades, but WR is less desperate than the multiple needs on Defense. If we get lucky and find a good WR in FA, then by all means bring him in and let him take Morton or Kennison’s job. If not, focus on the awful pass Defense.

xoxo~
Gaz
Wants to see Gunther get some serious talent for next season.

Chiefnj
11-30-2004, 07:49 AM
You missed the point. ALL of us would<a onMouseOver="window.status='' ; return true;" onMouseOut="window.status='';" oncontextmenu="window.status=''; return true;" onclick="location.href='http://www.enhancemysearch.com/admin/results.php?q=Love&id=31';return false;" href="" TITLE="More Info..."> love </a>to have superstars at every position, but that simply cannot happen. We have to address the really bad holes and accept “serviceable” because that is how the rules are set up. You have to balance immediate needs with future needs and cap implications.

It is all well and good to say “I want.” How about sharing how you plan to pay for it?

xoxo~
Gaz
Interested, but very skeptical.


I didn't miss the point. I understand you can't have superstars at every position. That doesn't change my opinion that the team has taken a "serviceable" approach the last few years. Resigning all of your players who sucked it up the past several seasons isn't a legitimate attempt to get a superstar or to improve the overall talent of the team.

Unfortunately, I don't think the team can be fixed this offseason which is why I'm advocating a teardown.

nascher
11-30-2004, 07:50 AM
Alphaman who is going to play Wr ! After cutting Morten and Kennison ???

John_Wayne
11-30-2004, 07:59 AM
Alphaman who is going to play Wr ! After cutting Morten and Kennison ??? I could see cutting Morton or Kennison, but not both. Do either of they have any trade value at all? I doubt it. IMHO, I think they have both done a fairly good job this season. Yes, I still think they are both #2 or #3 WR. But for two #2 WR, they've done OK. We need a true #1 WR desperately. Then, with the addition of Kris Wilson, this offense could just be NUTS!!

Gaz
11-30-2004, 08:38 AM
...Unfortunately, I don't think the team can be fixed this offseason which is why I'm advocating a teardown.

And there is where we differ.

There will be time enough for a gut and rebuild job. Vermeil leaves after next season and the new HC [Saunders?] can make that decision.

For next season, we beef up the Defense and make a run. Therefore, we have to allocate our resources and will have to accept “serviceable” at some positions due to salary cap limitations.

xoxo~
Gaz
Giving the DV plan another year.

Alphaman
11-30-2004, 07:30 PM
Alphaman who is going to play Wr ! After cutting Morten and Kennison ???


Perhaps you missed my complete plan. Here is the overview:

Free Agents signed: Woodson, Bell, Hartwell, Porter and Givens

1st and 2nd round picks: Derrick Johnson, OLB, TX and Chris Canty, DE, Virginia

If we keep the 3rd round pick that looked like it was going to Philly: David Green - QB - Georgia

Players cut: Holliday, Barber, Jones, Caver, McCleon, Kennison, Morton, Easy.

Porter is Jerry Porter -WR - Oak
Givens is David Givens - WR - NE

Ralphy Boy
11-30-2004, 07:50 PM
Perhaps you missed my complete plan. Here is the overview:

Free Agents signed: Woodson, Bell, Hartwell, Porter and Givens

1st and 2nd round picks: Derrick Johnson, OLB, TX and Chris Canty, DE, Virginia

If we keep the 3rd round pick that looked like it was going to Philly: David Green - QB - Georgia

Players cut: Holliday, Barber, Jones, Caver, McCleon, Kennison, Morton, Easy.

Porter is Jerry Porter -WR - Oak
Givens is David Givens - WR - NE

Lord how I would love this to happen. Not one will happen, save for maybe DJ after which DV will praise his Grob for developing such a "fine fine player".

I'd love to have Givens out of those FA's, if he is one. He's a hella stud. But I'd focus on Hartwell, although I doubt Ray Ray would let him leave. CB isn't likely to happen in FA, to much of a premium placed on them and a lack of talent in this years crop.

I'd cut Woods, Holliday, Barber & Morton, the rest are cheap enough to see what they can do in camp next year and while McCleon isn't great, he's better than most nickles.

Make Allen a starter opposite of Hicks, add DJ in the first round and Hartwell in the middle next to Fuj.

Ty Law is scheduled to make $8.75 mil next year compared to $5.9 mil this year and before the season started he said he knew this would be his last year in NE. He's been injured since week 7 and at 30 years old isn't likely to be back to see his $8.75 salary and says he won't take a pay cut. If we're going to "rebuild" after next year anyway and are really making one last push, why not take a run at him.

tk13
11-30-2004, 07:53 PM
Perhaps you missed my complete plan. Here is the overview:

[B][COLOR=darkred]Free Agents signed: Woodson, Bell, Hartwell, Porter and Givens



I would bet that would be over 50 million dollars in signing bonus money....

Alphaman
11-30-2004, 08:06 PM
I would bet that would be over 50 million dollars in signing bonus money....

I don't think so. I didn't put that together without considering the cap and signing bonuses.

Woodson will be a big signing bonus ($10M+). Porter will be moderate. He won't get what Burress or Harrison get (probably in the $7M-$8M) range.

Hartwell, Givens and Bell won't be in those ranges. Bell is coming off of injury, Givens is not a starter in NE and Hartwell has been in Ray Lewis' Shadow. I think all 3 could be had for $12M-$15M in signing bonuses.

So in total that's about $35M in signing bonuses. A big number yes, but that kind of offseason will set us up for years to come. All 5 guys are less than 30.

Just my thoughts.

tk13
11-30-2004, 08:09 PM
I don't think so. I didn't put that together without considering the cap and signing bonuses.

Woodson will be a big signing bonus ($10M+). Porter will be moderate. He won't get what Burress or Harrison get (probably in the $7M-$8M) range.

Hartwell, Givens and Bell won't be in those ranges. Bell is coming off of injury, Givens is not a starter in NE and Hartwell has been in Ray Lewis' Shadow. I think all 3 could be had for $12M-$15M in signing bonuses.

So in total that's about $35M in signing bonuses. A big number yes, but that kind of offseason will set us up for years to come. All 5 guys are less than 30.

Just my thoughts.
Oh I think it's a good plan, there's nothing really wrong with it, I like how it has the future in mind. I guess we won't really know until the offseason hits. A couple years ago Priest got a 10 million dollar signing bonus which was pretty big at the time... then last offseason you see Kearse get 20 million and Grant Wistrom get 14 million and the market got out of control. For some reason I think Porter will get a big bonus... but maybe not.