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The Rick
12-01-2004, 07:58 AM
According to Jeffrey Flanagan he does...statistically anyway.
Uh-oh! Grbac and Green have eerily similar statistics

JEFFREY FLANAGAN

Perhaps Elvis Grbac never really left the building.

Elvis Grbac is Trent Green.

Seriously, their statistics are frighteningly similar — virtually identical in some areas.

• Grbac was here four years and was 26-22 as a starter. Green is in his fourth year and is 30-29 as a starter.

• Both quarterbacks started one playoff game here, both losses. Grbac had a 94.4 passer rating in his loss; Green had a 92.6 passer rating in his loss.

• Grbac threw for a touchdown once in every 23.45 passes here. Green has thrown for a touchdown once in every 23.02 passes.

• Grbac threw an interception once in every 32 passes. Green has thrown an interception once in every 32 passes.

• Grbac completed 58 percent of his passes here. Green has completed 61 percent of his passes.

• Green's cumulative numbers for touchdowns and yards are higher than Grbac's, simply because he has played more games. Green averages 7.7 yards per attempt, Grbac 6.9.

One can easily argue that Green has had more weapons, too. Grbac didn't have Priest Holmes or what some say is the league's best offensive line.

Grbac also didn't benefit from the imaginative play-calling of Al Saunders. Grbac was stuck with Paul Hackett and Jimmy Raye.

There is one other striking similarity. Both quarterbacks have a signature end-of-the-game play.

For Grbac, it was throwing the ball 15 yards short of the first down, hoping the receiver could miraculously break 20 tackles to keep the drive alive. For Green, it's taking a sack.

We will allow Green this much: He's never taken a cheap shot at his receivers, like Grbac did.

***

People still refer to NFL schedules as “soft” or “hard,” when in reality it's been years since each divisional team's schedule fluctuated much.

For example, the Chiefs, Broncos, Raiders and Chargers all play the same opponents, except for two.

This year, the Chiefs, based on winning the AFC West last year, had to play the champs of the AFC East (New England) and the AFC North (Baltimore). It just so happens that those two teams have a combined 17-5 record.

The Raiders drew Pittsburgh and Buffalo, who are a combined 15-7.

The Broncos drew Miami and Cincinnati, both having disappointing years while combining for a 7-15 mark.

The Chargers had the Browns and Jets, who are a combined 11-11.

***

Former Chief Nick Lowery didn't make the recent cutdown from 90 to 25 in the voting for the Pro Football Hall of Fame, and that doesn't sit well with those who appreciate the skill of kicking in the NFL.

The Hall of Fame has just one kicker inducted — Jan Stenerud — and zero punters, not even Ray Guy.

Lowery finished his career with 383 field goals, third most in NFL history behind Gary Anderson (533) and Morten Andersen (515).

The best kicker in the game today, New England's Adam Vinatieri, strongly believes it's time that kickers and punters start literally kicking down the doors of the Hall.

“Guy should be in there,” Vinatieri told the Boston Globe. “Lowery should be in there. Both the Andersons (sic) should be, too. You play over 20 years and score 2,000 points and there's no place for you in the Hall of Fame? Maybe in the back somewhere? Come on, now.”

To reach Jeffrey Flanagan call (816) 234-4492 and leave a message or email jflanagan@kcstar.com
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/10307642.htm

The Rick
12-01-2004, 07:59 AM
They may compare statistically, but there's no comparison when it comes to the intangibles.

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:02 AM
They may compare statistically, but there's no comparison when it comes to the intangibles.
W/L and SB are all that count. F@ck intangibles.

Just regurgitating what I was taught in the Grbac era.

NewChief
12-01-2004, 08:02 AM
What a low blow.

Mile High Mania
12-01-2004, 08:03 AM
This thread should have 5 pages by noon.

milkman
12-01-2004, 08:06 AM
Flanagan should ask himself this question.

If he had the choice between Green or GrBac, who would he pick to be his QB?

memyselfI
12-01-2004, 08:07 AM
According to Jeffrey Flanagan he does...statistically anyway.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/10307642.htm


Oh great, the guy is struggling enough and then this comparison has to be made. I'm sure it will speak to some out there...

NO WAY IN HELL is Trent Green even remotely close to Grbackup. Green has heart, and grit, and guts and he's NOT a quitter. Grbackup would have to find a dictionary to even remotely discover the meaning of those intangibles that Green is.

Mile High Mania
12-01-2004, 08:08 AM
How long until Grbac resurfaces in the league somewhere? Hell, the Bears wasted $700k on George... for reasons I still don't understand at this point in the season.

milkman
12-01-2004, 08:12 AM
How long until Grbac resurfaces in the league somewhere? Hell, the Bears wasted $700k on George... for reasons I still don't understand at this point in the season.

I think those reasons are called Craig Krensel and Jonathan Quinn.

One's a rookie with no talent, the other's a career backup with less talent.

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:12 AM
Oh great, the guy is struggling enough and then this comparison has to be made. I'm sure it will speak to some out there...

NO WAY IN HELL is Trent Green even remotely close to Grbackup. Green has heart, and grit, and guts and he's NOT a quitter. Grbackup would have to find a dictionary to even remotely discover the meaning of those intangibles that Green is.
It's not about whether or not he's a quitter, or has 'grit' or 'heart.' It's about whether or not he's a winner. The term 'intangible' has a meaning, folks. And it stands in opposition to 'tangible,' which pretty much covers the standards for success. Green has demonstrated those intangibles throughout his career, and people like to think that those intangibles lead to tangible results. But it hasn't in Green's case. I asked earlier in the week if people thought Green had ever won an important game, or if not what they thought the closest thing was. I got no replies.

morphius
12-01-2004, 08:14 AM
How long until Grbac resurfaces in the league somewhere? Hell, the Bears wasted $700k on George... for reasons I still don't understand at this point in the season.
It is doubtful, when his name comes up he normally shoots them down right away. I think he met his bashing threshold, and called it good enough.

RedNFeisty
12-01-2004, 08:14 AM
Grbac is not even close to the man that Green is. I don't really care how close the numbers compare.

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:16 AM
Grbac is not even close to the man that Green is. I don't really care how close the numbers compare.
So, is our standard wins and losses and SB appearances, or a player who falls short but we can still be proud to support. If it's the latter, may I again assert that I was much more proud of the Chiefs when they played good defense under Schottenheimer, even if they didn't win a SB, than I am today.

RedNFeisty
12-01-2004, 08:16 AM
It's not about whether or not he's a quitter, or has 'grit' or 'heart.' It's about whether or not he's a winner. The term 'intangible' has a meaning, folks. And it stands in opposition to 'tangible,' which pretty much covers the standards for success. Green has demonstrated those intangibles throughout his career, and people like to think that those intangibles lead to tangible results. But it hasn't in Green's case. I asked earlier in the week if people thought Green had ever won an important game, or if not what they thought the closest thing was. I got no replies.

I actually have no clue what important games Green has won, frankly I don't really care. He has been the best QB that the Chiefs have had in a long time. I liked Gannon and I loved Montana, but I don't think they were as good for the Chiefs as Green is.

KCTitus
12-01-2004, 08:17 AM
W/L and SB are all that count. F@ck intangibles.

Just regurgitating what I was taught in the Grbac era.

LOL...you were taught well, I see.

Gaz
12-01-2004, 08:18 AM
I would like to thank Mr. Flannagan for a fine example of why statistics are dangerous weapons in ignorant hands.

xoxo~
Gaz
Realizes the Planet statmongers can always use a reminder or twelve.

mlyonsd
12-01-2004, 08:20 AM
I actually have no clue what important games Green has won, frankly I don't really care. He has been the best QB that the Chiefs have had in a long time. I liked Gannon and I loved Montana, but I don't think they were as good for the Chiefs as Green is.

It's all about the timing. IMO if Gannon would have started the 97 playoff game against the Broncos the Chiefs would have made the SB, and the rest as they say would be history.

If that had happened we probably wouldn't be talking about Green today.

RedNFeisty
12-01-2004, 08:20 AM
So, is our standard wins and losses and SB appearances, or a player who falls short but we can still be proud to support. If it's the latter, may I again assert that I was much more proud of the Chiefs when they played good defense under Schottenheimer, even if they didn't win a SB, than I am today.

I am very disappointed in the Chiefs this year, but I will not blame Green, Priest, Tony, or most of the offense. I will say that I have been more pumped the last four years then I had been with Marty for years. I was ready to see Marty leave. Not that I haven't been sadly disappointed with the team under DV as of late, I think I mentioned that a little already.

morphius
12-01-2004, 08:21 AM
So, is our standard wins and losses and SB appearances, or a player who falls short but we can still be proud to support. If it's the latter, may I again assert that I was much more proud of the Chiefs when they played good defense under Schottenheimer, even if they didn't win a SB, than I am today.
So, you had a blast in that 98 season where we were going to go unbeaten and march into the SB?

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:22 AM
I would like to thank Mr. Flannagan for a fine example of why statistics are dangerous weapons in ignorant hands.

xoxo~
Gaz
Realizes the Planet statmongers can always use a reminder or twelve.

Thanks for the shining generality, devoid of substance. ;)

morphius
12-01-2004, 08:22 AM
It's all about the timing. IMO if Gannon would have started the 97 playoff game against the Broncos the Chiefs would have made the SB, and the rest as they say would be history.

If that had happened we probably wouldn't be talking about Green today.
Or if the refs would have realized that one knee=two feet and gave Tony that TD in the game...

Morphius
ahhh the if's

mlyonsd
12-01-2004, 08:23 AM
Or if the refs would have realized that one knee=two feet and gave Tony that TD in the game...

Morphius
ahhh the if's

Great, now I'm having flashbacks. Thanks.

morphius
12-01-2004, 08:23 AM
Great, now I'm having flashbacks. Thanks.
You started it pig ****er :D

Count Zarth
12-01-2004, 08:24 AM
Grbac's won-less record would have been significantly crappier had he been stuck with Green's defense.

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:24 AM
So, you had a blast in that 98 season where we were going to go unbeaten and march into the SB?
Geez, one bad season in 10. Wonder how that matches up with DV's tenure. And even then, even after the Monday Night Meltdown, I was not as embarassed to be a CHiefs fan as I am today. We get pity from Cardinal, Bengal, Redskin, and Browns fans nowadays fer chrissake.

memyselfI
12-01-2004, 08:25 AM
It's not about whether or not he's a quitter, or has 'grit' or 'heart.' It's about whether or not he's a winner. The term 'intangible' has a meaning, folks. And it stands in opposition to 'tangible,' which pretty much covers the standards for success. Green has demonstrated those intangibles throughout his career, and people like to think that those intangibles lead to tangible results. But it hasn't in Green's case. I asked earlier in the week if people thought Green had ever won an important game, or if not what they thought the closest thing was. I got no replies.

It hasn't in Green's case because of DV. MOF, I venture to say that coming to KC was a mixed blessing for him. OTOH, he got a second chance because of the emotional connection DV felt for him after he'd lost his job and place in history to the KW 'miracle' but OTOH, he's tied his fortunes to that of the Grandma and as he goes so too goes Green.

I TRULY believe that DV has not had the testicular fortitude to stand up to CP and DEMAND that the necessary additions to the team be made that would further allow Green to be a success. Think about it, CP drafted LJ (CP ploy to force PH to behave) and he brought in a single coach, ONE PERSON, they'd previously run out of town to 'fix' the ailing defense. These are two well known moves that DV was opposed to and have impacted the team in negative ways. This hurts Green because players that have been needed (both WR and defense) have been overlooked or passed on simply because CP pulled rank.

Now, the OL is starting to age and falter and Green is forced to carry the load when his running game has been sporatic and his wide receivers have been inconsistent this not withstanding the nightmare that has been the defense and the bi-polar STs. Not to mention that CP initially did not even WANT Priest Holmes...he freakin lucked out on the acquisition.

So what, specifically, has CP done to HELP Trent Green???? And, with the lack of those moves what has DV done specifically to help him as well? If he's going to bring him here out of some sense of loyalty and retribution then is it not his responsbility to stand up to CP and demand that he make the changes necessary for Green to succeed?

I believe that neither have done much to help the guy succeed...

mlyonsd
12-01-2004, 08:26 AM
Grbac's won-less record would have been significantly crappier had he been stuck with Green's defense.

Or significantly better with Saunders/Priest/and todays Oline.

BigRedChief
12-01-2004, 08:26 AM
Trent, U Da MAN!

Best QB we have had since Montana. I'm glad Trent is my QB. Now would I like to have Manning or McNabb? Sure. But I've lived through some really horrible KC QB's. Grbac? Hurt pinky and can't play? No way that you can paint Trent with Grbac's brush.

memyselfI
12-01-2004, 08:27 AM
I actually have no clue what important games Green has won, frankly I don't really care. He has been the best QB that the Chiefs have had in a long time. I liked Gannon and I loved Montana, but I don't think they were as good for the Chiefs as Green is.

I agree with this. But then Gannon was not ever handed the team either. One wonders what would have happened if he WAS. I know, old argument so no need to rehash.

But Green has been given the EMOTIONAL keys he needs...not much else.

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:27 AM
It's all about the timing. IMO if Gannon would have started the 97 playoff game against the Broncos
Or if the refs would have realized that one knee=two feet and gave Tony that TD in the game...
Grbac's won-less record would have been significantly crappier had he been stuck with Green's defense.
Ah, yes. The stat comparisons are crap. But the 'what ifs' are iron-clad cinches.

RedNFeisty
12-01-2004, 08:29 AM
Geez, one bad season in 10. Wonder how that matches up with DV's tenure. And even then, even after the Monday Night Meltdown, I was not as embarrassed to be a CHiefs fan as I am today. We get pity from Cardinal, Bengal, Redskin, and Browns fans nowadays fer chrissake.


If you want to talk about the over all picture, with Marty we were almost guaranteed a one and out at the playoffs. The Chiefs may not be having an outstanding year, but their offense is ranked number three right now. I could complain that every year under Marty we knew we would probably have a par year, enough to make the playoffs, but we also knew that we wouldn't get past them. I think is all a matter of who are willing to put with. With hopes being so high after DV arrived of going to the SB, it is a bigger let down to people that we haven't, and I think there lies the problem.

morphius
12-01-2004, 08:30 AM
Geez, one bad season in 10. Wonder how that matches up with DV's tenure. And even then, even after the Monday Night Meltdown, I was not as embarassed to be a CHiefs fan as I am today. We get pity from Cardinal, Bengal, Redskin, and Browns fans nowadays fer chrissake.
Odd, I remember that being a pretty embarrassing year. The first three years with DV were not embarrasssing to me at all. The first two we expected to be better faster, but hey, he found this great guy Priest Holmes and we were still a blast to watch. This year is basically a replay of the 98 for me, superbowl bound and nothing to show for it.

mlyonsd
12-01-2004, 08:31 AM
Ah, yes. The stat comparisons are crap. But the 'what ifs' are iron-clad cinches.

Somebody's a little grumpy this morning aren't they?

Count Zarth
12-01-2004, 08:31 AM
Or significantly better with Saunders/Priest/and todays Oline.

I highly doubt it. Grbac always found a way to choke. Green may have choked a few times this year, but that certainly wasn't the norm last season.

Besides, apart from his last year here, Grbac had one of the league's better running games and offensive lines. He also had better wide receivers (man how the hell did Derrick Alexander go from 1,300 yards to shitty? :banghead: )

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:33 AM
FTR - I am not as down on Green as it probably appears in reaction to this thread. I am simply trying to get my head around the schizophrenic nature of some Chiefs fans.
Schottenheimer gave us consistently quality results, and a philosophy at least I could be proud of, but not the ultimate results. So he's a loser and has to go.
But when it comes to DV and Trent, just being telegenic and flashing all those 'intangibles' is just fine, regardless of how crappy a team we have.
Do we have standards or don't we? And are those standards tied to the traditional markers for success in competitive sport, or merely a warm feeling in the belly?

RedNFeisty
12-01-2004, 08:35 AM
FTR - I am not as down on Green as it probably appears in reaction to this thread. I am simply trying to get my head around the schizophrenic nature of some Chiefs fans.
Schottenheimer gave us consistently quality results, and a philosophy at least I could be proud of, but not the ultimate results. So he's a loser and has to go.
But when it comes to DV and Trent, just being telegenic and flashing all those 'intangibles' is just fine, regardless of how crappy a team we have.

With hopes being so high after DV arrived of going to the SB, it is a bigger let down to people that we haven't, and I think there lies the problem.

Count Zarth
12-01-2004, 08:35 AM
FTR - I am not as down on Green as it probably appears in reaction to this thread. I am simply trying to get my head around the schizophrenic nature of some Chiefs fans.
Schottenheimer gave us consistently quality results, and a philosophy at least I could be proud of, but not the ultimate results. So he's a loser and has to go.
But when it comes to DV and Trent, just being telegenic and flashing all those 'intangibles' is just fine, regardless of how crappy a team we have.

I'd say you hit the nail on the head.

Basically the only difference between Marty's Chiefs and DV's Chiefs is the former incarnation gave you bonafide reasons to hate them (other than being losers).

mlyonsd
12-01-2004, 08:37 AM
I highly doubt it. Grbac always found a way to choke. Green may have choked a few times this year, but that certainly wasn't the norm last season.

Besides, apart from his last year here, Grbac had one of the league's better running games and offensive lines. He also had better wide receivers (man how the hell did Derrick Alexander go from 1,300 yards to shitty? :banghead: )

Better running games? All I remember was RBBC. But, we digress here. It's all water under the bridge. I'm still convinced it's mostly timing though.

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:38 AM
I'd say you hit the nail on the head.

Basically the only difference between Marty's Chiefs and DV's Chiefs is the former incarnation gave you bonafide reasons to hate them (other than being losers).
I dunno, I pretty much hate knowing that, regardless of the level of talent in our opposition, we're gonna be tied or leading in the fourth and piss it away, most regularly in a game ending sack.

mlyonsd
12-01-2004, 08:38 AM
But when it comes to DV and Trent, just being telegenic and flashing all those 'intangibles' is just fine, regardless of how crappy a team we have.
Do we have standards or don't we? And are those standards tied to the traditional markers for success in competitive sport, or merely a warm feeling in the belly?

No, I'm at the "That aint going to work so WTF can we do now to fix it?" stage.

milkman
12-01-2004, 08:38 AM
FTR - I am not as down on Green as it probably appears in reaction to this thread. I am simply trying to get my head around the schizophrenic nature of some Chiefs fans.
Schottenheimer gave us consistently quality results, and a philosophy at least I could be proud of, but not the ultimate results. So he's a loser and has to go.
But when it comes to DV and Trent, just being telegenic and flashing all those 'intangibles' is just fine, regardless of how crappy a team we have.
Do we have standards or don't we? And are those standards tied to the traditional markers for success in competitive sport, or merely a warm feeling in the belly?

That's not necessarily true.

I like Green, and I would like to see how he fares with a complete team.

I don't like Dick, and he needs to be shown the door.

If Green, with a new coach, and a better team, doesn't get better results, then in the end, he is no better than GrBac.

Count Zarth
12-01-2004, 08:39 AM
Better running games? All I remember was RBBC. But, we digress here. It's all water under the bridge. I'm still convinced it's mostly timing though.

The Chiefs were consistently ranked in the top 10 in rushing yards almost every year Marty was here.

memyselfI
12-01-2004, 08:39 AM
I'd say you hit the nail on the head.

Basically the only difference between Marty's Chiefs and DV's Chiefs is the former incarnation gave you bonafide reasons to hate them (other than being losers).

Hey, I was not a big fan of Marty but I believed HE should have stayed and CP go...

and given the choice between Marty and DV I'd choose Marty hands down even with his lack of SB win. His product, not to mention his personality, is more stable (Greg Hill issues not withstanding) and I believe Carl was riding Marty's success more than the other way around.

Count Zarth
12-01-2004, 08:40 AM
I dunno, I pretty much hate knowing that, regardless of the level of talent in our opposition, we're gonna be tied or leading in the fourth and piss it away, most regularly in a game ending sack.

What's even more hard to swallow is that last year that WASN'T happening to the team.

And it was ALOT of fun to watch. :banghead: :deevee:

philfree
12-01-2004, 08:40 AM
There is no worthy comparison between the two.


PhilFree :arrow:

Count Zarth
12-01-2004, 08:40 AM
Hey, I was not a big fan of Marty but I believed HE should have stayed and CP go...

and given the choice between Marty and DV I'd choose Marty hands down even with his lack of SB win. His product, not to mention his personality, is more stable (Greg Hill issues not withstanding) and I believe Carl was riding Marty's success more than the other way around.

I'd agree with that. There was no way Marty was going to stay, though. He had totally lost control of the team.

Cochise
12-01-2004, 08:41 AM
Hey, I was not a big fan of Marty but I believed HE should have stayed and CP go...

and given the choice between Marty and DV I'd choose Marty hands down even with his lack of SB win. His product, not to mention his personality, is more stable (Greg Hill issues not withstanding) and I believe Carl was riding Marty's success more than the other way around.

Right. Vermeil's been to the super bowl twice. Marty will never get there. Write it down.

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:42 AM
Hey, I was not a big fan of Marty but I believed HE should have stayed and CP go...

and given the choice between Marty and DV I'd choose Marty hands down even with his lack of SB win. His product, not to mention his personality, is more stable (Greg Hill issues not withstanding) and I believe Carl was riding Marty's success more than the other way around.
:eek: - And the eye-opener of the week goes to.

Count Zarth
12-01-2004, 08:42 AM
Right. Vermeil's been to the super bowl twice. Marty will never get there. Write it down.

The DV we know is never going to get there either.

Lzen
12-01-2004, 08:42 AM
Thanks for the shining generality, devoid of substance. ;)
Truth hurts, eh?

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:44 AM
I like Green, and I would like to see how he fares with a complete team.
I agree to an extent. I must admit that I'm a little nervous in that Trent has been in the league for so long and not been in an important game. Will he Elway/Brady up, or Manning/Schottenheimer out?

memyselfI
12-01-2004, 08:45 AM
I'd agree with that. There was no way Marty was going to stay, though. He had totally lost control of the team.

That he had but I think it was because the team knew, thanks to the 1997 playoffs, that he wasn't the one calling the shots.

Mile High Mania
12-01-2004, 08:46 AM
This thread should have 5 pages by noon.

:clap: 4 pages and it's not even 10am. I knew I could count on you guys. :thumb:

Count Zarth
12-01-2004, 08:47 AM
I agree to an extent. I must admit that I'm a little nervous in that Trent has been in the league for so long and not been in an important game. Will he Elway/Brady up, or Manning/Schottenheimer out?

Did you watch the playoff game last year? He looked pretty damn good out there if you ask me.

Hell, if his receivers hadn't dropped five passes, we'd probably have won.

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:49 AM
Did you watch the playoff game last year? He looked pretty damn good out there if you ask me.

Hell, if his receivers hadn't dropped five passes, we'd probably have won.
There is all the difference in the world between playing catch up and playing for the win.
There are thing in each of Schottenheimer's playoff loses where, if they'd have gone a little different, we'd have been in the SB. How come Green gets the what if pass and Schottenheimer [and even Grbac] gets the what if brush off?

milkman
12-01-2004, 08:51 AM
I agree to an extent. I must admit that I'm a little nervous in that Trent has been in the league for so long and not been in an important game. Will he Elway/Brady up, or Manning/Schottenheimer out?

That is the $64K question.
If he gets the chance, this will be how he'll be judged.

If he never gets to play with a more complete team, the only comparison that we'll be able to draw from, besides meaningless stats, is that Elvi was a pussy, and Green isn't.

Lzen
12-01-2004, 08:51 AM
Did you watch the playoff game last year? He looked pretty damn good out there if you ask me.

Hell, if his receivers hadn't dropped five passes, we'd probably have won.

Heh, there were a lot of "if this had happened and if that had happened" type things in that game. But none of them were on Green, IMO. The man did everything in his power to win that game. He played outstanding and should've had the W.

This piece by Flannigan is about the same quality as a roll of Charmin. As a matter of fact, if I bought the KC Star, I would use this piece for that very purpose.

RedNFeisty
12-01-2004, 08:52 AM
There is all the difference in the world between playing catch up and playing for the win.
There are thing in each of Schottenheimer's playoff loses where, if they'd have gone a little different, we'd have been in the SB. How come Green gets the what if pass and Schottenheimer [and even Grbac] gets the what if brush off?

Marty had how many years to prove himself and get the Chiefs to the SB?

Count Zarth
12-01-2004, 08:55 AM
There is all the difference in the world between playing catch up and playing for the win.
There are thing in each of Schottenheimer's playoff loses where, if they'd have gone a little different, we'd have been in the SB. How come Green gets the what if pass and Schottenheimer [and even Grbac] gets the what if brush off?

I'm not sure I fully take your meaning.

Green didn't choke AT ALL in that playoff game. Grbac choked like a beyotch in his.

milkman
12-01-2004, 08:55 AM
Marty had how many years to prove himself and get the Chiefs to the SB?

Not to metion how many years with the Browns before that?

Count Zarth
12-01-2004, 08:57 AM
THIS THREAD IS DEPRESSING :(

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 08:58 AM
I'm not sure I fully take your meaning.

Green didn't choke AT ALL in that playoff game. Grbac choked like a beyotch in his.
My point is that he didn't get a chance to. Doesn't mean he will. Doesn't mean he won't. Means it's still an unknown variable.

Count Zarth
12-01-2004, 08:59 AM
My point is that he didn't get a chance to. Doesn't mean he will. Doesn't mean he won't. Means it's still an unknown variable.

OK I see your point now.

Brock
12-01-2004, 09:00 AM
There are thing in each of Schottenheimer's playoff loses where, if they'd have gone a little different, we'd have been in the SB.

No. The Chiefs would have advanced to the second round in most cases.

HC_Chief
12-01-2004, 09:03 AM
Grbac = aloof dipshit with zero leadership ability
Green = stand-up, take-charge guy with tons of leadership ability

There's the main difference.

FAX
12-01-2004, 09:04 AM
Plus, Grbac was way ahead of Trent in the gangly rating.

FAX

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 09:05 AM
Grbac = aloof dipshit with zero leadership ability
Green = stand-up, take-charge guy with tons of leadership ability

There's the main difference.
Any truth to the rumor we're bringing in Rudy Guiliani as our QBOTF? ;)

BigRedChief
12-01-2004, 09:06 AM
Marty had lost the team. He had to go. The players wern't buying what he was selling.

milkman
12-01-2004, 09:12 AM
THIS THREAD IS DEPRESSING :(

This has been a depressing 3 1/2 decades.

memyselfI
12-01-2004, 09:14 AM
There is all the difference in the world between playing catch up and playing for the win.
There are thing in each of Schottenheimer's playoff loses where, if they'd have gone a little different, we'd have been in the SB. How come Green gets the what if pass and Schottenheimer [and even Grbac] gets the what if brush off?

:hmmm:

Ask yourself what is the common denominator that both of them share?

As have 2 other coaches and at least 2 other QBs????

Dartgod
12-01-2004, 09:17 AM
:hmmm:

Ask yourself what is the common denominator that both of them share?

As have 2 other coaches and at least 2 other QBs????
DAMMIT, CARL!! :cuss:







sheesh, I REALLY hate agreeing with Duh-nese...

Demonpenz
12-01-2004, 09:20 AM
I tried to see how good grbac would be with the 04 chiefs offense. So i created him in madden 2005, but sadly there is no slider for "Size of vagina" so i think the experiment will be off alittle bit

Pants
12-01-2004, 09:22 AM
I tried to see how good grbac would be with the 04 chiefs offense. So i created him in madden 2005, but sadly there is no slider for "Size of vagina" so i think the experiment will be off alittle bit

LMAO, teh rep.

Mr. Laz
12-01-2004, 09:22 AM
FTR - I am not as down on Green as it probably appears in reaction to this thread. I am simply trying to get my head around the schizophrenic nature of some Chiefs fans.
Schottenheimer gave us consistently quality results, and a philosophy at least I could be proud of, but not the ultimate results. So he's a loser and has to go.
But when it comes to DV and Trent, just being telegenic and flashing all those 'intangibles' is just fine, regardless of how crappy a team we have.
Do we have standards or don't we? And are those standards tied to the traditional markers for success in competitive sport, or merely a warm feeling in the belly?
needs to be quoted again...



is it the best player/coach or just the one we think is "prettiest"

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 09:23 AM
So far the only real difference I have read is "Green has intangibles". Green also has a better RB and better OLine. Grbac had a better defense, but that didn't help him directly.

The stats say they are virtually the same. I know that pisses off a lot of people here, but there will be no "intangible" stat 20 years from now to show us the difference.

ChiefsOne
12-01-2004, 09:23 AM
I'lll take a stand-up guy like Green anyday over a puzzy-azz finger-pointing Grbac.

No comparison IMHO.

milkman
12-01-2004, 09:24 AM
DAMMIT, CARL!! :cuss:







sheesh, I REALLY hate agreeing with Duh-nese...

Don't we all?

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 09:27 AM
So far the only real difference I have read is "Green has intangibles". Green also has a better RB and better OLine. Grbac had a better defense, but that didn't help him directly.

The stats say they are virtually the same. I know that pisses off a lot of people here, but there will be no "intangible" stat 20 years from now to show us the difference.
What I've said from the beginning.
And it'd be different if we had some history of saying "f@ck the SB, we want players with the intangibles." But our history [at least for the past 6-8 years] has been "f@ck everything else, the SB is all that matters."

ChiefsOne
12-01-2004, 09:27 AM
I supported Grbac when he was here just because he was the Chiefs QB.

But we have a real leader in Green.

HC_Chief
12-01-2004, 09:28 AM
So far the only real difference I have read is "Green has intangibles". Green also has a better RB and better OLine. Grbac had a better defense, but that didn't help him directly.

The stats say they are virtually the same. I know that pisses off a lot of people here, but there will be no "intangible" stat 20 years from now to show us the difference.

True enough, but those of us who witnessed both QBs will definitely remember those intangibles. Grbac, the whiner who pointed the finger at everyone but himself versus Green, the charasmatic, who shouldered blame, even when it wasn't necessarily his fault. The latter takes responsibilty for his actions, and as the offensive leader, also takes responsibility for the offensive failures as a whole. :thumb:

I am a huge Trent Green fan. He's a good player with a great attitude. I'd like to have a guy like him on defense.... would make all the difference IMO>

Demonpenz
12-01-2004, 09:29 AM
i think because i like Green. It changes my view from "Oh he got lucky" to "Man that was a great throw!" I wonder if anyone else does this

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 09:29 AM
I am a huge Trent Green fan. He's a good player with a great attitude. I'd like to have a guy like him on defense.... would make all the difference IMO>
We did, his name is Mike Maslowski. Lots of heart, lots of character, making the most of his abilities, never been in an important game.

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 09:29 AM
I'lll take a stand-up guy like Green anyday over a puzzy-azz finger-pointing Grbac.

No comparison IMHO.
Again, why? Did Grbac have better WR or a better RB? If Green is better than Grbac, why don't his stats indicate thus?

However, I do take umbrage to the author of the article, as I look at the stats, he picked and chose what he wanted to make his comparison. While in KC Grbac had the rating of 79.1, 53.1, 81.7, and 89.9. Green has fared much better with 71.1, 92.6, 93.8, and 93.8.

But overall their careers, their stats are eerily similar.

In KC, Green is the better QB, but over an entire career, there is little difference.

Pants
12-01-2004, 09:31 AM
Trent = Class Act + Good QB Skills. Remeber that time he stood up for defense when the commissioner was joking about it's performance at some banquet? Grbac would have been laughing with the rest of them...

HC_Chief
12-01-2004, 09:31 AM
We did, his name is Mike Maslowski. Lots of heart, lots of character, making the most of his abilities, never been in an important game.

Good point.

Wile_E_Coyote
12-01-2004, 09:31 AM
Grbac wanted out & nobody really cared for him anyway ( Christmas party, hunting trip) he was a pussy among thugs

Green wants to be here, I can only assume he is wanted here by his teammates

Mr. Laz
12-01-2004, 09:31 AM
I'lll take a stand-up guy like Green anyday over a puzzy-azz finger-pointing Grbac.

No comparison IMHO.
ya, but kinda the point


you LIKE green better personally ... but is he really a better Quarterback?


Vermeil LIKES william bartee, but does that mean we should of resigned him?




the danger of judging a team by the "pretty" chart instead of performance.

Taco John
12-01-2004, 09:31 AM
This thread should have 5 pages by noon.



Noon?

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 09:34 AM
ya, but kinda the point


you LIKE green better personally ... but is he really a better Quarterback?


Vermeil LIKES william bartee, but does that mean we should of resigned him?




the danger of judging a team by the "pretty" chart instead of performance.
For further clarity. I make no Green/Bartee comparisons. Green has proven himself capable of quality play. My concerns are that; 1) he hasn't led us to playoff success yet, and 2) he hasn't been put in the forge of having an important game on the line.

Mr. Laz
12-01-2004, 09:39 AM
For further clarity. I make no Green/Bartee comparisons. Green has proven himself capable of quality play. My concerns are that; 1) he hasn't led us to playoff success yet, and 2) he hasn't been put in the forge of having an important game on the line.
i wasn't trying to compare the talent level of bartee/green either


just saying that "like" and "performance" can be too seperate things.


some people complain about Vermeil being to loyal, making decisions about a player on who he "likes"


don't we, the fans, do the same?

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 09:45 AM
i wasn't trying to compare the talent level of bartee/green either


just saying that "like" and "performance" can be too seperate things.


some people complain about Vermeil being to loyal, making decisions about a player on who he "likes"


don't we, the fans, do the same?
Yes, see Joe Valerio for a perfect example.

Some fans threw fits about him being dumped. Nice guy, great when reporting in as an eligible receiver, but otherwise much less than average as a player. Well liked, less than average, well liked, less than average - honestly eventually ability has to be considered above ALL else, no matter how much we would pretend otherwise.

memyselfI
12-01-2004, 09:48 AM
So far the only real difference I have read is "Green has intangibles". Green also has a better RB and better OLine. Grbac had a better defense, but that didn't help him directly.

The stats say they are virtually the same. I know that pisses off a lot of people here, but there will be no "intangible" stat 20 years from now to show us the difference.

ah, I remember this from our delightful Grbackup v. Gannon discussions...

what you are forgetting is that guts and grit are NOT merely 'intangibles' as they are visable physically. Describing a guy as having guts when he's scrambling to avoid a sack after suffering a near career ending knee injury is not merely window dressing verbiage, it's REAL and visable and tangible. It takes some serious stones to put yourself on the line knowing your career, indeed your ability to walk normally, may be impacted if re-injured.

Same with grit. He apparently took a helluva hit on Sunday but dragged his aching arse off the ground and stood in to take another. I imagine he'll be in on Sunday as well.

At one point didn't Grbackup sit because his manicure got chipped??? j/k but he was much more fraile and fragile than Green. No one would have described him as having guts or grit...except maybe the deer he'd take shots at.

ENDelt260
12-01-2004, 09:52 AM
This thread should have 5 pages by noon.
Talk about an underestimation.

Mr. Laz
12-01-2004, 09:54 AM
what you are forgetting is that guts and grit are NOT merely 'intangibles' as they are visable physically

ya, but statistically those "gutty intangibles" haven't really made a difference yet, have they?


aren't stats ie win/losses what really count?





(btw i prefer green over grback as well, but we still haven't won the key games with him either)

Son of Logical
12-01-2004, 09:54 AM
I think that the fact we have not seen Trent in a big game is not entirely true. As pointed out earlier in the thread last years playoff game was a big game. Trent played masterfully in that game, unfortunately football is a team sport, and if one side of the team does not show up then the game becomes almost impossible to win. BabyLee, in that game the Chiefs were playing from behind, but not by a large margin. Trent was matching Peyton throw for throw, but Peytons weapons were just better not just on offence on defence as well. Indy's D was just a little better, and that was the difference. Trent did what he needed to do to win the game. I don't believe if Grbac was our QB last year the game would of even been close. It takes a certain type of QB to hang in on a game like that and I don't believe Grbac was that type of QB. Stats don't always tell the story.

memyselfI
12-01-2004, 09:56 AM
BL,

you haven't answered my question.

What, SPECIFICALLY, has King Carl done to HELP Green succeed. What has DV done? And would you not agree that DV is a puzz for bringing the guy here only to back down to Carl and NOT get him what he needs?

memyselfI
12-01-2004, 09:58 AM
ya, but statistically those "gutty intangibles" haven't really made a difference yet, have they?


aren't stats ie win/losses what really count?





(btw i prefer green over grback as well, but we still haven't won the key games with him either)

I beg to differ. Can you imagine what the team would look like if they had someone without them at the helm? This team with Grbac? 2-14.

The last loss could be attributed to Trent's INT but he's come a LONG way from being TRINT to PBer to trying to be comeback kid and getting sacked three times in a row (indicating OL breakdown).

ROYC75
12-01-2004, 10:00 AM
This thread should have 5 pages by noon.

7 pages long @ 11:00 am.......... :clap:

htismaqe
12-01-2004, 10:02 AM
Grbac also didn't benefit from the imaginative play-calling of Al Saunders. Grbac was stuck with Paul Hackett and Jimmy Raye.


That's odd. Lately, I've been thinking Al Saunders looks every bit as stupid as Can't Hackett and 3-Play Raye...

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 10:03 AM
BL,

you haven't answered my question.

What, SPECIFICALLY, has King Carl done to HELP Green succeed. What has DV done? And would you not agree that DV is a puzz for bringing the guy here only to back down to Carl and NOT get him what he needs?
Assembled a quality OL, drafted Gonzo, went out and got Kennison and Morton, drafted Boerigter and Wilson [even if they're not there right now, got Priest, got Blaylock, got LJ [I still think we have the best 1st, 2nd and 3rd string tandem at RB in the league], best blocking TE in FB, best blocking FB in FB, stuck with Dante, . . . then tried like hell to get something on D, with 0 success thus far.

Mr. Laz
12-01-2004, 10:03 AM
I beg to differ. Can you imagine what the team would look like if they had someone without them at the helm? This team with Grbac? 2-14.

The last loss could be attributed to Trent's INT but he's come a LONG way from being TRINT to PBer to trying to be comeback kid and getting sacked three times in a row (indicating OL breakdown).
really?? how many games have we lost this year with the ball in Green's hands and a realistic chance to tie/win the game?


(and Green has better offensive talent around him and a much,much better offensive system to work in)

htismaqe
12-01-2004, 10:09 AM
Hey, I was not a big fan of Marty but I believed HE should have stayed and CP go...

and given the choice between Marty and DV I'd choose Marty hands down even with his lack of SB win. His product, not to mention his personality, is more stable (Greg Hill issues not withstanding) and I believe Carl was riding Marty's success more than the other way around.

stable = mediocre

Baby Lee
12-01-2004, 10:10 AM
stable = mediocre
I'll take 'mediocre' over embarassing and aspiring to mediocrity any day.

David.
12-01-2004, 10:14 AM
Green is overrated IMO, the slightest pressure on him and he completely falls apart. That being said, I'd take him over Grbac anyday. Based only on the fact that Grbac was a pussy, who wasn't a leader at all, green is a leader. Granted it hasn't worked, but I can at least be proud of him.

Mr. Laz
12-01-2004, 10:17 AM
Green is overrated IMO, the slightest pressure on him and he completely falls apart. That being said, I'd take him over Grbac anyday. Based only on the fact that Grbac was a pussy, who wasn't a leader at all, green is a leader. Granted it hasn't worked, but I can at least be proud of him.

fair enough...

Lzen
12-01-2004, 10:23 AM
really?? how many games have we lost this year with the ball in Green's hands and a realistic chance to tie/win the game?


(and Green has better offensive talent around him and a much,much better offensive system to work in)

Green should be given a little slack here. Sure, he did throw the pick against SD. That was a forced throw, no doubt. But in other games, he was sacked by a 3 man rush. Tell me, how the fark do 3 guys beat 5 guys? That isn't supposed to happen. And in some of those, Trent had very little time.

Mr. Laz
12-01-2004, 10:30 AM
Green should be given a little slack here. Sure, he did throw the pick against SD. That was a forced throw, no doubt. But in other games, he was sacked by a 3 man rush. Tell me, how the fark do 3 guys beat 5 guys? That isn't supposed to happen. And in some of those, Trent had very little time.

i know... but he's still had the ball in his hands at the end of a game with plenty of time to win the game.



we are talking bottomline here


(btw - i hate the play we called in several of those situations. we send all the receivers out in short buttonhook pass patterns. if a DB doesnt slip or play way off we are screwed with very few options. seems to me we ran the same stinking play on 4th down both times)

ChiefsCountry
12-01-2004, 10:36 AM
Grbac and Green have 5 main things in common - They played in the Big 10, both drafted in 1993 8th Round, both were career backups, both were starting quarterbacks for Chiefs, and both played for teams with San in it. Green might not be as talented but he makes up for with smarts, leadership, and taking one for the team. Like that block against Buffalo last year. That is something Grbac never would do.

Grbac = ( v )

htismaqe
12-01-2004, 11:02 AM
I'll take 'mediocre' over embarassing and aspiring to mediocrity any day.

This team has NEVER been as embarassing as the team that took the field against the Broncos in 1998. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Clint in Wichita
12-01-2004, 11:13 AM
It may have (should have) been posted already, but one huge difference between Grbitch and Green was this:


When Grbac was on the sidelines, he was able to watch a fairly effective defense perform.

When Green is on the sidelines, he gets to watch a bunch of little girl mongoloids with A.D.D. perform.

Cochise
12-01-2004, 11:47 AM
Gannon couldn't hold Green's jock

Rausch
12-01-2004, 11:55 AM
We did, his name is Mike Maslowski. Lots of heart, lots of character, making the most of his abilities, never been in an important game.

A good QB has the "intangables."

I don't think any other position allows a lack of talent to be overcome like QB. Montana, and now Brady, don't do anything flashy, they just win. Of course, you have to remember they both had more than ample support from the rest of their team, but they just get it done.

One of Deberg's intangables was toughness. He'd get his $#it RUINED and slowly climb back up and go on. Or playing with that broken wee-finger in a bloody cast. It rubbed off.

I think last year Green's toughness rubbed off. But now we're in a funk, a team funk, and that has permiated everything. The funk has rubbed off on damned near everyone. It's going to take a big infusion to change that. New players, a few new coaches, and a good draft. People who weren't infected by the funk of this year.

It took me a long time to warm up to Green and DV but they've proven themselves to me.

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 12:32 PM
ah, I remember this from our delightful Grbackup v. Gannon discussions...

what you are forgetting is that guts and grit are NOT merely 'intangibles' as they are visable physically. Describing a guy as having guts when he's scrambling to avoid a sack after suffering a near career ending knee injury is not merely window dressing verbiage, it's REAL and visable and tangible. It takes some serious stones to put yourself on the line knowing your career, indeed your ability to walk normally, may be impacted if re-injured.

Same with grit. He apparently took a helluva hit on Sunday but dragged his aching arse off the ground and stood in to take another. I imagine he'll be in on Sunday as well.

At one point didn't Grbackup sit because his manicure got chipped??? j/k but he was much more fraile and fragile than Green. No one would have described him as having guts or grit...except maybe the deer he'd take shots at.
And the difference between manicure and guts has equalled what? That someone feels good about one QB and not the other? Who cares? Honestly, the People Magazine crowd may be interested, I am not as I only care about the team winning - not how gutsy they are.

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 12:33 PM
BL,

you haven't answered my question.

What, SPECIFICALLY, has King Carl done to HELP Green succeed. What has DV done? And would you not agree that DV is a puzz for bringing the guy here only to back down to Carl and NOT get him what he needs?
Holmes, Gonzalez, and Richardson as well as the Oline are not assets?

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 12:36 PM
It may have (should have) been posted already, but one huge difference between Grbitch and Green was this:


When Grbac was on the sidelines, he was able to watch a fairly effective defense perform.

When Green is on the sidelines, he gets to watch a bunch of little girl mongoloids with A.D.D. perform.
And when Grbac was in the game he didn't have Priest Holmes

Valiant
12-01-2004, 12:43 PM
Actually if anything Grbac more resembles plummer...

Wile_E_Coyote
12-01-2004, 01:39 PM
how is this season more embarrassing than picking up the KC Star & reading about drug deals & stolen cars, picking up undercover cops as hookers, ramming into your wife's SUV with your child inside it, Monday Night Football meltdowns or bouncing bad checks & child support going unpaid on a multi-million dollar salary? Those are the ones I can remember

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 01:57 PM
how is this season more embarrassing than picking up the KC Star & reading about drug deals & stolen cars, picking up undercover cops as hookers, ramming into your wife's SUV with your child inside it, Monday Night Football meltdowns or bouncing bad checks & child support going unpaid on a multi-million dollar salary? Those are the ones I can remember
Of which Grbac was not a part of in the least.

I agree, social miscreants are a detriment to the team I want, including a winning team. However, Grbac was guilty of nothing more than being a human being with poor character with bad socialization skills. Character I really don't give a fig about one way or the other.

Rausch
12-01-2004, 01:59 PM
Of which Grbac was not a part of in the least.

I agree, social miscreants are a detriment to the team I want, including a winning team. However, Grbac was guilty of nothing more than being a human being with poor character with bad socialization skills. Character I really don't give a fig about one way or the other.

He was also unable to put together any 4th quarter QB skills...I can remember the Raiders MNF game, but that's about it...

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 02:00 PM
He was also unable to put together any 4th quarter QB skills...I can remember the Raiders MNF game, but that's about it...
We have lost half a dozen games in the 4th quarter this year alone. Grbac is not the QB now.

Wile_E_Coyote
12-01-2004, 02:03 PM
Of which Grbac was not a part of in the least.

I agree, social miscreants are a detriment to the team I want, including a winning team. However, Grbac was guilty of nothing more than being a human being with poor character with bad socialization skills. Character I really don't give a fig about one way or the other.

I was responding to baby Lee saying he was embarrassed of this years team. Losing isn't good, around worst D for three years running is bad, but trying to replace the Raiders as the all thug team is beyond embarrassing

Rausch
12-01-2004, 02:03 PM
We have lost half a dozen games in the 4th quarter this year alone. Grbac is not the QB now.

Green's 4th quarter play this year has been poop. I'm not covering for him, I'm just saying Girlbac wasn't the answer. His character (drive, determination, etc) on the field was just $#itty.

He demonstrated it both here and in B-More.

I like Trent's approach to "team" and the belief this team has in him.

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 02:05 PM
Green's 4th quarter play this year has been poop. I'm not covering for him, I'm just saying Girlbac wasn't the answer. His character (drive, determination, etc) on the field was just $#itty.

He demonstrated it both here and in B-More.

I like Trent's approach to "team" and the belief this team has in him.
Oh, I agree. I already stated the article is biased as Green's QB rating is superior to Grbac's while both were inKC. However, other than that, their careers are mirrors of one another as both end up with overall rankings in the low 80s or upper 70s.

The team approach makes you feel good, but is obviously not paying dividends on the field as the w/l are mirror-like with both players.

I honestly don't care about intangibles, I care about wins.

Brock
12-01-2004, 02:05 PM
I like Trent's approach to "team" and the belief this team has in him.

I believe in drafting his replacement this year.

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 02:06 PM
I was responding to baby Lee saying he was embarrassed of this years team. Losing isn't good, around worst D for three years running is bad, but trying to replace the Raiders as the all thug team is beyond embarrassing
Yup, I screamed the day we brought in Bam Morris and celebrated the day he left with all his cronies.

Rausch
12-01-2004, 02:08 PM
I believe in drafting his replacement this year.

Is it a strong QB year? I honestly know next to nothing about this years draft crop...

If so, and we've got a couple of choices there, where we can pick a guy we really feel good about, I'm all for it...if he's the best on the board.

KCTitus
12-01-2004, 02:08 PM
Yup, I screamed the day we brought in Bam Morris and celebrated the day he left with all his cronies.

Yep...from 1998 through the end of Gunther's era, KC was the most penalized team in the league setting records in both 1999 and 2000.

Rausch
12-01-2004, 02:13 PM
The team approach makes you feel good, but is obviously not paying dividends on the field as the w/l are mirror-like with both players.

I honestly don't care about intangibles, I care about wins.

Right now 1/2 our team is killing the other 1/2. Blame that on Peterson, DV, or whomever you want. But our defense is still playing like poop and our offense should not be required to score 30 pts a game to win. The defense is killing us.

I'm not going to blame Trent or Holmes or even Morton for our season. Sure, all three have made mistakes and poor plays but NO OFFENSE should be required to play flawless, which we are now to get a win.

tk13
12-01-2004, 02:16 PM
I think Grbac was a more physically talented quarterback than Trent Green, but that doesn't mean he's as good. I've read a lot of crap in this thread. Not clutch? Never helped us win a game? Hello, McFly? Does anybody on this board honestly believe that Grbac would've been smart enough to pitch the ball the John Tait while getting knocked on his ass to save the day in Cleveland? Does anyone think Grbac would've played well in that last offensive drive we had of the playoff game, having to march down the field being put in 4th quarter situations where we HAD to get 4th and sometimes long conversions or the season was over? Does anyone really think Grbac would throw a block to allow Priest to spring around the corner for a touchdown?

I think all this "loser" talk is hogwash too, in his career Green started for teams whose defenses have allowed 25 points points per game. Twenty-five. That is obscene. Last year's Chiefs defense was the BEST defense Trent Green has EVER had anywhere he's played..... EVER. If that doesn't give you an idea of how perfect he's been forced to play over his career I don't know what does. When he was given the best defense of his career, he helped put up a 13-3 record. Saying that defense doesn't matter here is like getting angry and hitting a car window with a hammer then telling your wife that it's the window's fault for not being sturdy enough to withstand the stupidity of being a dumbass.

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 02:17 PM
Right now 1/2 our team is killing the other 1/2. Blame that on Peterson, DV, or whomever you want. But our defense is still playing like poop and our offense should not be required to score 30 pts a game to win. The defense is killing us.

I'm not going to blame Trent or Holmes or even Morton for our season. Sure, all three have made mistakes and poor plays but NO OFFENSE should be required to play flawless, which we are now to get a win.
Other teams have beat us without scoring 30 points this season. The defense is still very bad, but it is not atrocious. I still don't see a statistical major difference in the two QBs

NewChief
12-01-2004, 02:19 PM
Someone care to do a similar comparison, throwing Jeff George into the mix? Then, provided George shows up similarly, all you people saying there's no meaningful difference between Trent and Grbac can continue to dig your graves, substituting George for Elvis.

Rausch
12-01-2004, 02:20 PM
Other teams have beat us without scoring 30 points this season. The defense is still very bad, but it is not atrocious. I still don't see a statistical major difference in the two QBs

They might end up with the exact same stats. That doesn't mean they are equal or the same type of QB.

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 02:56 PM
They might end up with the exact same stats. That doesn't mean they are equal or the same type of QB.
I agree again.

But if the results are the same and neither are committing crimes to embarrass me and my city, then I really don't care about anything else like "character" and "intangibles".

HolmeZz
12-01-2004, 03:10 PM
Don't know if anyone's said this, but IMO our current offense would be half as productive if Grbac was quarterbacking instead of Green.

Rausch
12-01-2004, 03:12 PM
I agree again.

But if the results are the same and neither are committing crimes to embarrass me and my city, then I really don't care about anything else like "character" and "intangibles".

Agreed.

RIght now I want a super bowl win. I'd prefer it to be a team of high character and goals (see Pats), but if Saddam can come in here and play CB, and take us to a super bowl, sign his ass...

Wile_E_Coyote
12-01-2004, 03:22 PM
Agreed.

RIght now I want a super bowl win. I'd prefer it to be a team of high character and goals (see Pats), but if Saddam can come in here and play CB, and take us to a super bowl, sign his ass...

if Saddam kicks TO in the nuts & shoves a sharpie up his ass, I'll buy his jersey

redhed
12-01-2004, 03:24 PM
I think the improtance of a good D is being understated here. A good D helps the O get back on the field. If the Schottenheimer era D were here now, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. If Grbac had the current O, he'd still be wettting his panties and blaming the WRs for dropping passes. What's that you say? They still drop 'em? I don't hear Green beeyatching about it.
If we had a decent D, Green's stats would be even better, with or w/o Priest. Grbac's were inflated because of the D.
Must've been a slow news day for Flanagan.
Fuggin' non-story...

alpha_omega
12-01-2004, 03:27 PM
Green = Good guy

Grbac = Jerk!

BigChiefFan
12-01-2004, 03:30 PM
Green's got heart. Grbac didn't.

stevieray
12-01-2004, 03:38 PM
I could give a shit about stats, Green has made plays that Grbac would never even attempt.

Besides, completions depend on WR's.

6 Iron
12-01-2004, 03:43 PM
I am with Gunther Cunningham on this one. I need a side by side beard comparison.

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 06:06 PM
Don't know if anyone's said this, but IMO our current offense would be half as productive if Grbac was quarterbacking instead of Green.
Green would be a lot less productive with Grbac's RBs as well

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 06:06 PM
Green = Good guy

Grbac = Jerk!
That stat is nice but means nothing

KCWolfman
12-01-2004, 06:08 PM
I could give a shit about stats, Green has made plays that Grbac would never even attempt.

Besides, completions depend on WR's.
That is true, Green takes more risks and gets higher rewards, but he also pays a higher penalty for those double and triple coverages that he constantly plays with.

Neither QB has had decent WRs

philfree
12-01-2004, 06:20 PM
I would just like to add to the thread that there is no way Elvis is smart enough to learn much less run our offense. Great arm with no intangibles.

PhilFree :arrow: