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Nzoner
12-08-2004, 07:50 PM
Due to the Baltimore interception/fumble/td in Sundays game our FF League has a bit of a mess.

The site we use,Statsworld has ruled the play an offensive td and this has caused an uproar in our league because the ruling caused a team to lose that would've otherwise won.

I couldn't find an official NFL link on the ruling,however,I did find the following at another FF site under their FAQ

A player on Team B intercepted a pass from Team A, then fumbled it and Team A recovered it and ran it back for a TD. How is this scored?

Since neither the defensive team nor the special team was on the field during the fumble, neither get credit for it. Instead, it goes down as an offensive fumble return TD for McMichael.

EXAMPLE: In week 5 of 2003, Michael Doss of Indianapolis intercepted a pass from Brad Johnson of Tampa Bay. Doss then fumbled the ball, and Keenan McCardell of Tampa Bay picked up the fumble and returned it 57 yards for a TD. We score the play as a 57-yard offensive fumble return TD for McCardell. To further clarify, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers began the play on offense. After the interception, according to NFL rules, the defense becomes the offense and vice versa. This is what causes the confusion. But if you really take that logic to its conclusion, it would stand to reason that there could never be a defensive TD, since once a defensive teams intercepts a pass, by NFL rules it has become the offense. Additionally, let's take that interpretation and reapply it to when McCardell gained possession of the ball - he was back on offense again. There is no scenario where McCardell's TD can be credited to the Bucs defense.

Any official links or feedback you may have would be appreciated.

TIA

Logical
12-08-2004, 07:58 PM
I can only tell you I was on the bad end of a similar play a couple of years ago. I was never able to find anything conclusive to get it overturned.

Valiant
12-08-2004, 08:01 PM
Its simple in your example the only points awarded are a touchdown to the player that scored it...

unless your team counts smaller stats like ours does.. then

player A: would get points for the catch, and the yards gained, but lose points for the fumble...

player b: would get points for the fumble for the D, since they lost the fumble no points would be taken away from the defense..

player A: if he had the player that picked the fumble back up and returned it for the score would only get points for the touchdown... unless you count individual defensive return yards...

it depends what player he had on his team...

Hydrae
12-08-2004, 08:22 PM
I take it this is the play you are talking about:

(3:32) C.Palmer pass intended for C.Johnson INTERCEPTED by E.Reed at BLT 15. E.Reed to BLT 39 for 24 yards (T.Stewart). FUMBLES (T.Stewart), recovered by BLT-C.McAlister at BLT 36. C.McAlister for 64 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

It seems like every league scores fumbles differently but this is how I would score it my league:

Palmer loses points for the interception
Reed gains points for making the interception (yes, we run individual defenders, much more fun IMO) and any points for return yardage.
Reed does NOT lose points for the fumble since his team recovered it.
McAlister gets any points for return yardage and the TD.

In the case of defensive team scoring, the defense had an interception and a touchdown is how I would look at it.

How would it be scored if instead of a fumble/recovery by the defense, Reed had lateraled the ball to McAlister and he took it on in for the touch? I think you have to score this similarly.

Nzoner
12-08-2004, 08:23 PM
The guy who lost had the Baltimore defense and Statsworld is ruling that even though McCallister picked up Reed's fumble after the int and took it in for a td that officially it is ruled an offensive td.

I can only assume that is based on the section I have bolded in the original post.

I just wished I could find an official ruling from the NFL as our league has been asked to vote on this matter and I want to make sure I vote the right way.

Hydrae
12-08-2004, 08:25 PM
The guy who lost had the Baltimore defense and Statsworld is ruling that even though McCallister picked up Reed's fumble after the int and took it in for a td that officially it is ruled an offensive td.

I can only assume that is based on the section I have bolded in the original post.

I just wished I could find an official ruling from the NFL as our league has been asked to vote on this matter and I want to make sure I vote the right way.


I doubt the NFL rules would have much if any bearing on fantasy scoring. Each league has its' own set of rules.

Put it this way, is McAlister an offensive player? If not, I do not see how it can be ruled an offensive touchdown. :shrug:

Nzoner
12-08-2004, 08:31 PM
I doubt the NFL rules would have much if any bearing on fantasy scoring. Each league has its' own set of rules.

Put it this way, is McAlister an offensive player? If not, I do not see how it can be ruled an offensive touchdown. :shrug:

I appreciate what you're saying here,however,some of the guys in this league have always said they want to keep the league as close to the NFL as possible.I've always :rolleyes: to this and said forget it it's called Fantasy Football for a reason.

Amazingly these same guys now want this to be considered a defensive td thus,from the way I read the bolded section is officially not how the NFL sees it.

Just trying to do the right thing here and make a point.

morphius
12-08-2004, 08:32 PM
Our league made a specific rule for this situation. The Player that scored the TD gets the points.

tk13
12-08-2004, 08:32 PM
Sounds like a tricky situation. Just for the record, I checked my Yahoo FFL's real quick and they did not credit Baltimore with a defensive TD either.... looks like your stat company ruled it the same (right?) way.

morphius
12-08-2004, 08:41 PM
If you want to stay as close to the NFL ruling as possible you may have to do some research. www.nfl.com/stats will allow you to look up defensive scoring, you just have to figure out if it changed from last week to this week.

Hydrae
12-08-2004, 09:18 PM
Check the offical NFL game book here (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20041205_CIN@BAL).

Under the scoring plays, it shows:

Team Qtr Time Play Description (Extra Point) (Drive Info) Visitor Home
Ravens 1 9:16 M.Stover 20 yd. Field Goal (5-23, 2:12) 0 3
Bengals 2 2:25 S.Graham 41 yd. Field Goal (5-58, 1:46) 3 3
Ravens 2 0:04 M.Stover 22 yd. Field Goal (15-78, 2:21) 3 6
Ravens 3 8:13 C.Taylor 1 yd. run (M.Stover kick) (12-85, 6:47) 3 13
Ravens 3 2:29 C.McAlister 64 yd. fumble recovery (M.Stover kick) 3 20
Bengals 4 14:55 C.Johnson 13 yd. pass from C.Palmer (S.Graham kick) (2-19, 0:21) 10 20
Bengals 4 10:39 C.Johnson 12 yd. pass from C.Palmer (S.Graham kick) (5-76, 2:32) 17 20
Ravens 4 8:34 M.Stover 38 yd. Field Goal (5-53, 2:05) 17 23
Bengals 4 5:38 T.Houshmandzadeh 9 yd. pass from C.Palmer (S.Graham kick) (6-68, 2:56) 24 23
Ravens 4 1:42 M.Stover 45 yd. Field Goal (10-27, 3:56) 24 26
Bengals 4 0:00 S.Graham 24 yd. Field Goal (8-60, 1:42) 27 26


Since this shows no time of possession for the "drive" I would have to say that it is a defensive score.

Nzoner
12-08-2004, 09:49 PM
Check the offical NFL game book here (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20041205_CIN@BAL).

Under the scoring plays, it shows:




Since this shows no time of possession for the "drive" I would have to say that it is a defensive score.

I appreciate the input.

Again I ask though,if the NFL rules state what I have below,couldn't a case be made that it was an offensive td?

.After the interception, according to NFL rules, the defense becomes the offense and vice versa. This is what causes the confusion. But if you really take that logic to its conclusion, it would stand to reason that there could never be a defensive TD, since once a defensive teams intercepts a pass, by NFL rules it has become the offense.

Uncle_Ted
12-08-2004, 09:53 PM
FFL on CBS Sportsline gave points to BAL for a defensive TD on this play (at least it did for my league).

An additional rationale would be that there was no change of players on the field, nor was there a stoppage of play, between the time the ball was intercepted and the TD was scored.

Calling the TD an offensive TD in this situation is silly, hyper-technical, counter-intuitive, and places form over substance.

Nzoner
12-08-2004, 09:56 PM
FFL on CBS Sportsline gave points to BAL for a defensive TD on this play (at least it did for my league).

An additional rationale would be that there was no change of players on the field, nor was there a stoppage of play, between the time the ball was intercepted and the TD was scored.

Calling the TD an offensive TD in this situation is silly, hyper-technical, counter-intuitive, and places form over substance.

And yet Statsworld,Fantasy Commissioner Web and Yahoo have all ruled it an offensive td. :banghead:

tk13
12-08-2004, 10:04 PM
I believe it is an offensive TD.... once the fumble occurs it's an offensive fumble. I checked out the box score and it's listed as an offensive fumble recovered by Baltimore. McAlister is not even credited with a fumble recovery in the defensive stats. Statisically speaking it is the correct call I guess.

Nzoner
12-08-2004, 11:03 PM
I believe it is an offensive TD.... once the fumble occurs it's an offensive fumble. I checked out the box score and it's listed as an offensive fumble recovered by Baltimore. McAlister is not even credited with a fumble recovery in the defensive stats. Statisically speaking it is the correct call I guess.

Well the guy who had Baltimores defense posted on our site that NFL.com was showing it as a Balt D td under the Ravens defensive stats.

Could you give me a link to the box score you're looking at?

tk13
12-08-2004, 11:37 PM
Well the guy who had Baltimores defense posted on our site that NFL.com was showing it as a Balt D td under the Ravens defensive stats.

Could you give me a link to the box score you're looking at?
I was looking at the box on Yahoo. I looked at the NFL.com Gamebook and it was confusing. They did actually show the fumble recovery in the defensive stats... but they also included the fumble and score in the offensive statistics section.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20041205_CIN@BAL

I really think you could make the case that the reason this is considered an offensive touchdown is because of the fumble. That changed the dynamic of the play because Baltimore had possession then fumbled the ball... at that point if the ball were to go out of bounds it would be treated like an offensive fumble and Baltimore would retain possession. Once that fumble happened, I guess that's where it gets confusing. I personally don't think you should get credit for a defensive fumble recovery on a play like that, and without that fumble recovery happening the group that is on the field does not score. So in that case, you have to ask the question of whether you can give the defense points that result from what would be considered an "offensive fumble" by that same unit on the field.

Nzoner
12-09-2004, 06:41 AM
I was looking at the box on Yahoo. I looked at the NFL.com Gamebook and it was confusing. They did actually show the fumble recovery in the defensive stats... but they also included the fumble and score in the offensive statistics section.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20041205_CIN@BAL

I really think you could make the case that the reason this is considered an offensive touchdown is because of the fumble. That changed the dynamic of the play because Baltimore had possession then fumbled the ball... at that point if the ball were to go out of bounds it would be treated like an offensive fumble and Baltimore would retain possession. Once that fumble happened, I guess that's where it gets confusing. I personally don't think you should get credit for a defensive fumble recovery on a play like that, and without that fumble recovery happening the group that is on the field does not score. So in that case, you have to ask the question of whether you can give the defense points that result from what would be considered an "offensive fumble" by that same unit on the field.

I really appreciate all the help.

Care for a job as a FF Commissioner,our league may be needing a new one.