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View Full Version : Time Warner trying to stop affordable broadband in K.C.


warpaint99
12-12-2004, 10:58 PM
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/57792

I am a supporter of affordable broadband.

I also don't believe that Time Warner has the best interest of the community but themselves therefore prices are high enough to maximum profits from the wealthy.

One problem for those of you that think this is good. The internet was a GOVERNMENT created public project to share KNOWLEDGE and not a scheme for monopolist to strangle the last mile of connections to our houses.

I think this thread is relative since we all own computers and use the net and alot of us use cable modems. TimeWarner roadrunner 19.99 for just 3 months and then prices back to outlandish ville of 50 bucks a month .

I say municipal broadband needs our SUPPORT.

|Zach|
12-12-2004, 11:02 PM
Municipal Brodband? I don't quite understand how the local government could pull this off beyond doing research into understanding out they can get in the WiFi, WAN game.

I do not mean that in the sense that it can't be done but more so in the sense that I don't understand how they could do it. Becuase you can only lay so much line...

|Zach|
12-12-2004, 11:06 PM
The more I think about it the more I think gov't run broadband service would be crappy.

go bowe
12-12-2004, 11:09 PM
The more I think about it the more I think gov't run broadband service would be crappy.yep...

there ya go again!!

just can't keep yourself from stirring shit, can you?

you should be ashamed of yourself... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

|Zach|
12-12-2004, 11:11 PM
yep...

there ya go again!!

just can't keep yourself from stirring shit, can you?

you should be ashamed of yourself... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I know man, I am a bad person...

This is a matter I would like to know more about...

warpaint99
12-12-2004, 11:18 PM
Zach. What do you think the internet is ???? LOL.

Do you think the internet was invented by private baby bells ?

The private telcoms hate the internet because the public were paying low cost flat fees for long distance communications.

I don't understand the 'hatred' for government projects that work and the love for telcoms and cable companies that gouge us .

|Zach|
12-12-2004, 11:21 PM
Zach. Why do you think the internet is ???? LOL.

Do you think the internet was invented by private baby bells ?

The private telcoms hate the internet because the public were paying low cost flat fees for long distance communications.

I don't understand the 'hatred' for government projects that work and love for telcoms that are known to gouge us .
I am not really that concerned with who made or started the internet.

I do know it is not the government who gives me broadband. Like I said before...you can only lay so much line...

Do you think the gov't and ISP companies should compete and both have their own seperate infrastructure to provide service?

I don't know everything but I also don't know what you would like to be done here. There is a reason my mediacom is the big cable company around here. You cant have 10 companies trying to compete to build physical infrastructure to provide me cable/

Dartgod
12-12-2004, 11:26 PM
I don't think I want the Gov't knowing what websites I visit...

Rausch
12-12-2004, 11:27 PM
Municipal Brodband? I don't quite understand how the local government could pull this off beyond doing research into understanding out they can get in the WiFi, WAN game.

I do not mean that in the sense that it can't be done but more so in the sense that I don't understand how they could do it. Becuase you can only lay so much line...

Well, I've been reading about 2 options: wireless internet nodes and internet through power lines (don't ask on that one, I have no idea how it'd work.)

|Zach|
12-12-2004, 11:27 PM
I don't think I want the Gov't knowing what websites I visit...
Me either.

www.zombo.com

go bowe
12-12-2004, 11:27 PM
I am not really that concerned with who made or started the internet.

I do know it is not the government who gives me broadband. Like I said before...you can only lay so much line...

Do you think the gov't and ISP companies should compete and both have their own seperate infrastructure to provide service?

I don't know everything but I also don't know what you would like to be done here. There is a reason my mediacom is the big cable company around here. You cant have 10 companies trying to compete to build physical infrastructure to provide me cable/provide you with cable?

you mean they let you have cable in springfield?

what kind of school are they running down there?

next you'll tell me that they let you drink, too... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

warpaint99
12-12-2004, 11:28 PM
Zack. Ever hear of wireless broadband ?

And anyways you don't need to dig up the streets to install the optic fiber.

I trust government integrity more than I do Time Warner or telephone companies.

|Zach|
12-12-2004, 11:28 PM
Well, I've been reading about 2 options: wireless internet nodes and internet through power lines (don't ask on that one, I have no idea how it'd work.)
Well I understand the govt trying to get their foot in the door for future wireless based technology. But I don't understand how they would just jump into controlling cable and dsl internet...

|Zach|
12-12-2004, 11:31 PM
Zack. Ever hear of wirless broadband ?

And anyways you don't need to dig up the streets to install the optic fiber.
Like I said research for future wireless things like WiFi and WAN networks I understand but I don't think it is feasable for the govt to jump into DSL and Cable. You may not have to dig up the streets yet it is not make sense for more than one group to lay down infrastructure.

Rausch
12-12-2004, 11:31 PM
Well I understand the govt trying to get their foot in the door for future wireless based technology. But I don't understand how they would just jump into controlling cable and dsl internet...

I guess the Govt would do upkeep on the hardware (like roads) and sell the bandwidth to private industries. If it was somewhat regulated like Cable use to be I really wouldn't mind it.

|Zach|
12-12-2004, 11:32 PM
I guess the Govt would do upkeep on the hardware (like roads) and sell the bandwidth to private industries. If it was somewhat regulated like Cable use to be I really wouldn't mind it.
But isn't that what Warpaint is against...regulated and passed off to companies who have a monopoly in the area.

warpaint99
12-12-2004, 11:36 PM
I have no problem with them controlling it since they started it and alot of the internet backbone is on government property.

Does that answer your question?

I don't want to pay 10 -20 bucks for slow 56k or $ 50 a month for faster cable modem. What a ripoff.

I want the gov to reduce the price for broadband for all people.

Rausch
12-12-2004, 11:37 PM
But isn't that what Warpaint is against...regulated and passed off to companies who have a monopoly in the area.

I don't know. I was just guessing at the "how would that work" question, and saying that if that's how it works I wouldn't be against it...

|Zach|
12-12-2004, 11:39 PM
I have no problem with them controlling it since they started it and alot of the internet backbone is on government property.

Does that answer your question?

I don't want to pay 10 -20 bucks for slow 56k or $ 50 a month for faster cable modem. What a ripoff.

I want the gov to reduce the price for broadband for all people.
You make it sound like the government could hold up some magic wand and just "take it over" right now...

What should the ISP companies do??

|Zach|
12-12-2004, 11:41 PM
I think its a cool idea but I dont see the logistics lining up to make it happen.

Rausch
12-12-2004, 11:43 PM
I think its a cool idea but I dont see the logistics lining up to make it happen.

I could see it going state/federal but not city/county. And at that, still not very likely...

warpaint99
12-12-2004, 11:44 PM
It's not a take over. They are installing their own fiber.

And it would be alot less expensive than what the competition charges.

The cable companies and phone companies are frightened and are paying off local governments to kill these 'municipal broadband' projects .

Here's one that they killed off with dirty campaign ads.
http://www.tricitybroadband.com/index.htm

|Zach|
12-13-2004, 12:30 AM
If they can do it then more power to them. I just don't see it happening...

I have no problem with the price of the internet considering how much I use it...but thats just me...

Logical
12-13-2004, 12:39 AM
Zach. What do you think the internet is ???? LOL.

Do you think the internet was invented by private baby bells ?

The private telcoms hate the internet because the public were paying low cost flat fees for long distance communications.

I don't understand the 'hatred' for government projects that work and the love for telcoms and cable companies that gouge us .

It is pretty simple I prefer the government not to run anything except for the military. I personally believe the waste and red tape inherent in a government run (anything) is worse than a profit based private enterprise.

Valiant
12-13-2004, 01:14 AM
Will this be anything like how they run road repairs???


Trust me, even if this happened it would fail..

A: they would get greedy and raise prices to about 10% under SBC and TW...

B: to appease the cost, SBC and TW would fire 1000's of workers and say go thank the government...

C: What kind of technical support you going to get from the government at 20 bucks a month???


The main reason why TW is so high for internet, they have spent over a billion running the fiber and construction, practically broke them.. That and they have been doing this in other cities... I believe my mom lost like 35k worth of stock because of it... Of course she deserved it since she didnt invest in Cerner and Garmin about five years ago like I told her.. I dont even want to know what 10k of stock would be worth now..

I would love for internet to be cheaper, but these companies laid the foundation they should make thier profit and then in five or six more years drop the price...

KCWolfman
12-13-2004, 06:19 AM
By law, since the merger with AOL, Time Warner is required to offer their competitors prices and service the sale as if it is their own.

I have earthlink through Time Warner and pay 7 bucks less a month than TW customers and receive the exact same service and parts. If TW prices themselves out of range, people will simply buy their competitors product.

patteeu
12-13-2004, 07:16 AM
One problem for those of you that think this is good. The internet was a GOVERNMENT created public project to share KNOWLEDGE and not a scheme for monopolist to strangle the last mile of connections to our houses.

The internet was a DEFENSE DEPARTMENT created military project to share KNOWLEDGE across a network that would be survivable in anything up to and including a nuclear exchange.

HIGHER EDUCATION (both public and private) demonstrated it's usefulness as a non-military tool.

The PRIVATE SECTOR made it what it is today.

Cochise
12-13-2004, 07:23 AM
Anyone who thinks the government can do it as well and at the same cost as private business should not be smoking the ganja this early in the morning.

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 07:32 AM
Sorry. "The government made it so we should all get it for nothing" argument isn't going to hold up.

If you want to approach the issue from a "universal service" standpoint and build an argument that the internet has become a necessity, you might stand a chance. (Bob Dole doesn't think that will float at this point in time, either.)

Bob Dole already fought this fight with SWB over a decade ago when they attempted to re-interpret the tariff in MO and intended to charge business rates to residential customers who were found to have modems attached to their line. That case was more clear-cut than this issue, and it was still a battle...

The definition of "affordable" is going to vary substantially from market to market, and the infrastructure just isn't there to enforce any sort of standard connectivity and rate structure. Hell, there are still places where broadband isn't even available, while other lucky bastards like the residents of Keller, TX have FTTP with 15mbps service.

The impending WiMax standard should make community-based wireless broadband more realistic as the technology matures and prices drop. There are already projects in cities like Austin, where it's happening with the existing WiFi capabilities.

If you want to expend effort to make broadband affordable for the masses, then put your efforts behind community projects to do just that.

Screaming for the government to step in a regulate the revenue stream of private industry because you don't want to pay the market price for something just rubs Bob Dole the wrong way.

BigRedChief
12-13-2004, 07:40 AM
I don't think I want the Gov't knowing what websites I visit...They all ready know. Every single ISP in the USA must give the government a user id and password to all of their records and full access to their logs etc. They don't even have to report when they accessed the isp, what they saw. You have a right to know they accessed anything concerning you but how would you know they did? They don't have to tell the ISP. They don't have to tell you. Patriot Act stuff.

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 07:44 AM
They all ready know. Every single ISP in the USA must give the government a user id and password to all of their records and full access to their logs etc. They don't even have to report when they accessed the isp, what they saw. You have a right to know they accessed anything concerning you but how would you know they did? They don't have to tell the ISP. They don't have to tell you. Patriot Act stuff.


You have some sort of verifiable evidence of this, or is this just an unfounded conspiracy theory?

the Talking Can
12-13-2004, 07:44 AM
I don't think I want the Gov't knowing what websites I visit...

uh, too late for that....

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 07:50 AM
Here's a link to information about the Austin Wireless City Project if anyone is looking for a "template" on how to proceed.

http://www.austinwirelesscity.org/

And here's the Verizon press release providing information on their FTTP project in Keller. http://newscenter.verizon.com/proactive/newsroom/release.vtml?id=85137

morphius
12-13-2004, 07:51 AM
I thought the telecoms actually owned most of the Internet backbone. I do remember that Sprint was going to have to see off theirs when they were talking about hooking up with Wolrdcom, because they would have had a near monopoly on it.

The only place something like this works well is somewhere where the local companies are not standing up and giving their customers access in small communities. In larger cities the cost, IMO, might be too much, especially when you throw in the gov't bureaucracy, having to man it 24X7, plus just building it out along with ripping up the roads...

Cochise
12-13-2004, 07:52 AM
You have some sort of verifiable evidence of this, or is this just an unfounded conspiracy theory?

It's true. They are logging all our keystrokes now. The DOJ has millions of employees who monitor all the web traffic. And they have spy cameras on every part of your body, even your peepee.

Uncle_Ted
12-13-2004, 07:55 AM
Anyone who thinks the government can do it as well and at the same cost as private business should not be smoking the ganja this early in the morning.

:bong: While that may be true more often than not, it's not preordained or always necessarily the case. From my own experience some small towns in Iowa have gone to municipally-owned cable and internet, and the response has been very positive.

BigRedChief
12-13-2004, 07:56 AM
You have some sort of verifiable evidence of this, or is this just an unfounded conspiracy theory?

First hand knowledge. It's not a secret. It was published and debated openly. They can go into Library records, utility bills everything. Now they can get int trouble if there is not able to show probable cause later but whos going to call them on it? Noone ever knows they were accesed

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 07:59 AM
First hand knowledge. It's not a secret. It was published and debated openly. They can go into Library records, utility bills everything. Now they can get int trouble if there is not able to show probable cause later but whos going to call them on it? Noone ever knows they were accesed

Bob Dole is not displuting that they <b>can</b>. Bob Dole is disputing that there's some sort of "government account" already created on every server at every ISPs that allows them to continuously monitor traffic (which was your initial claim).

There's a major difference between the two.

HC_Chief
12-13-2004, 08:08 AM
I also don't believe that Time Warner has the best interest of the community but themselves

Well duh, that's business. TW exists to make a profit, not serve the greater good through charitible services.

That said, I'd like to see municpal broadband happen.... but ONLY if one were able to 'opt out'; choosing a private provider instead. The government can't run jack shit properly. I'd rather spend a bit more and have superior service than save a few bucks and have constant problems.

Cochise
12-13-2004, 08:13 AM
Teh patriot act ate my babies~~ >_<

HC_Chief
12-13-2004, 08:14 AM
Teh patriot act ate my babies~~ >_<

Sure it wasn't a dingo?

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 08:14 AM
Teh patriot act ate my babies~~ >_<

Then put the resultant fecal matter in a little vial that resides in your permanent record.

Cochise
12-13-2004, 08:20 AM
You people are stupid!! Dick Cheney and the Pentavorate are watching us type right now!! TEHY ARE WATCHING UR EVERY MOVE OMGZ :eek:

BigRedChief
12-13-2004, 08:41 AM
Bob Dole is not displuting that they can. Bob Dole is disputing that there's some sort of "government account" already created on every server at every ISPs that allows them to continuously monitor traffic (which was your initial claim).

There's a major difference between the two.

I don't know if they have "govenment accounts" on all isp's. They could just give them the admin password and id that they use. Wht I'm saying is that the goivernement has the right legally to look at the sites you have accesed and doesn't have to tell you that they were looking at our surfing habits. Same as library books checked out. When you use your utilites and how much. Again, if questioned they must show just cause but if you never know how do you question.

As far as believing me. This is easily verifible. Just ask someone you know that works in utilities or the library or an isp.

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 08:49 AM
I don't know if they have "govenment accounts" on all isp's. They could just give them the admin password and id that they use. Wht I'm saying is that the goivernement has the right legally to look at the sites you have accesed and doesn't have to tell you that they were looking at our surfing habits. Same as library books checked out. When you use your utilites and how much. Again, if questioned they must show just cause but if you never know how do you question.

As far as believing me. This is easily verifible. Just ask someone you know that works in utilities or the library or an isp.


Again, Bob Dole is not disputing that the government <b>can</b> compel ISPs and libraries to provide access to information like that. Your initial staement, however, was that "Every single ISP in the USA must give the government a user id and password to all of their records and full access to their logs etc."

That's just not the case. They may be required to provide access upon request, but there isn't a user ID just sitting there awaiting their login. (Ignoring how they'd actually <b>use</b> the imaginary ID on a server sitting inside a properly configured firewall...)

BigRedChief
12-13-2004, 09:08 AM
Again, Bob Dole is not disputing that the government can compel ISPs and libraries to provide access to information like that. Your initial staement, however, was that "Every single ISP in the USA must give the government a user id and password to all of their records and full access to their logs etc."

That's just not the case. They may be required to provide access upon request, but there isn't a user ID just sitting there awaiting their login. (Ignoring how they'd actually use the imaginary ID on a server sitting inside a properly configured firewall...)

What I'm saying is the same thing I said in the first post on this subject. They don't have to ask permission they have already have asked permission all they have to do is log on. There is an id that they have already to get into the isp records

Cochise
12-13-2004, 09:10 AM
One of you has been reading Moby Dick, haven't you? Don't worry about admitting it, the gentlemen in the helicopters saw everything. Your silly tinfoil hat cannot protect you against our electronic mind control. You have no chance to survive make your time.

Cochise
12-13-2004, 09:11 AM
BTW the admin username and password for all teh websites is u - presidentbush p - spyonj00

beavis
12-13-2004, 09:20 AM
:bong: While that may be true more often than not, it's not preordained or always necessarily the case. From my own experience some small towns in Iowa have gone to municipally-owned cable and internet, and the response has been very positive.
Try it in a town the size of KC. Get ready for corruption and mismanagement.

Can someone give me one example of something the government can do cheaper and more efficiently than private business?

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 09:21 AM
What I'm saying is the same thing I said in the first post on this subject. They don't have to ask permission they have already have asked permission all they have to do is log on. There is an id that they have already to get into the isp records

And what Bob Dole is saying is that Bob Dole thinks you are full of the poo.

And Bob Dole can guarantee you that there aren't accounts like that on all library servers.

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 09:22 AM
Try it in a town the size of KC. Get ready for corruption and mismanagement.

Can someone give me one example of something the government can do cheaper and more efficiently than private business?

Tax your income.

beavis
12-13-2004, 09:22 AM
I have no problem with them controlling it since they started it and alot of the internet backbone is on government property.
You really need to check your facts before you post this crap.

beavis
12-13-2004, 09:23 AM
Tax your income.
I had that typed at the end of my post, but I wanted to see who would be the first one to say it. ROFL

beavis
12-13-2004, 09:24 AM
What I'm saying is the same thing I said in the first post on this subject. They don't have to ask permission they have already have asked permission all they have to do is log on. There is an id that they have already to get into the isp records
Somebody has seen se7en one too many times.

BigRedChief
12-13-2004, 09:58 AM
And what Bob Dole is saying is that Bob Dole thinks you are full of the poo.

And Bob Dole can guarantee you that there aren't accounts like that on all library servers.

Yes, I am. And I'm going to take care of that right now.:p

the Talking Can
12-13-2004, 10:04 AM
Try it in a town the size of KC. Get ready for corruption and mismanagement.

Can someone give me one example of something the government can do cheaper and more efficiently than private business?

burn the constitution?

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 10:04 AM
Yes, I am. And I'm going to take care of that right now.:p


There's nothing quite as satisfying as dropping the kids off at the pool on company time.

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 10:39 AM
Because Bob Dole really hates to speak about things of which he has zero knowledge, Bob Dole just had a conversation with the owner of one of the local ISPs.

Not only is there not a government mandated user account and password on any of their servers, they no longer even maintain logs longer that 24 hours.

A little over a year ago, the Feds sent a demand for them to provide their logs as part of a larger investigation. The ISP discovered what Bob Dole already assumed, which was that any government entity would need to provide the appropriate legal instrument(s) to acquire the information. They also discovered that there was no legal requirement to even <i>maintain</i> such logs, so to avoid any future requests, they stopped maintaining any logs beyond what they felt were necessary to troubleshoot any problems they might have.

BigRedChief
12-13-2004, 10:58 AM
Because Bob Dole really hates to speak about things of which he has zero knowledge, Bob Dole just had a conversation with the owner of one of the local ISPs.

Not only is there not a government mandated user account and password on any of their servers, they no longer even maintain logs longer that 24 hours.

A little over a year ago, the Feds sent a demand for them to provide their logs as part of a larger investigation. The ISP discovered what Bob Dole already assumed, which was that any government entity would need to provide the appropriate legal instrument(s) to acquire the information. They also discovered that there was no legal requirement to even maintain such logs, so to avoid any future requests, they stopped maintaining any logs beyond what they felt were necessary to troubleshoot any problems they might have.

And I have first hand knowledge of a different approach.

Does it really matter? I don't surf to anyplace illegal or considered immoral by rule of law.

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 11:04 AM
And I have first hand knowledge of a different approach.

Well, since it's impossible for one to refute someone else's personal experience, Bob Dole supposes you are correct.

The same law that requires ISPs to maintain that user ID and password probably requires the ISP to lie about its existence.

Uncle_Ted
12-13-2004, 12:33 PM
Because Bob Dole really hates to speak about things of which he has zero knowledge, Bob Dole just had a conversation with the owner of one of the local ISPs.

Not only is there not a government mandated user account and password on any of their servers, they no longer even maintain logs longer that 24 hours.

A little over a year ago, the Feds sent a demand for them to provide their logs as part of a larger investigation. The ISP discovered what Bob Dole already assumed, which was that any government entity would need to provide the appropriate legal instrument(s) to acquire the information. They also discovered that there was no legal requirement to even <i>maintain</i> such logs, so to avoid any future requests, they stopped maintaining any logs beyond what they felt were necessary to troubleshoot any problems they might have.

A lot of libraries do the same thing -- they only maintain records of what books are currently checked out, not what books have been checked out and returned by a particular patron.

My understanding is that a subpoena is still required to "force" an ISP to turn over user logs. Some ISP's will do it voluntarily (they see no reason to fight it since they'll likely lose anyway) and they say so in their user agreements. If the subpoena is issued under the authority of the Patriot Act (or other statutes providing for unassailable subpoena power) then the ISP has an even smaller chance of successfully quashing the subpoena.

To the best of my knowledge, and in agreement with the Senator, there is no legal "requirement" for ISP's to maintain user activity logs.

Uncle_Ted
12-13-2004, 12:40 PM
Try it in a town the size of KC. Get ready for corruption and mismanagement.

Can someone give me one example of something the government can do cheaper and more efficiently than private business?

And there's never corruption and/or mismanagement in the private sector, is there? :) Those two seem to be in plentiful supply these days.

I tend to agree with you though that the case for a municipally-owned utility of this type isn't as great in the case of a larger city, where presumably customers can enjoy the benefits of competition.

BigRedChief
12-13-2004, 12:54 PM
To the best of my knowledge, and in agreement with the Senator, there is no legal "requirement" for ISP's to maintain user activity logs.

I didn't say that any isp maintains user activity logs. Nobody keeps records. It's expensive and who cares? well besides marketing info.

Back to the orginal question. You are seeing this everywhere. Philly is spending 25 mil to build a free wireless zone. Just about every city is doing it and every isp, telecom is fighting it. Cities can spend there money how thet seem fit but it seems to me personally that providing money for good schools, roads and police and fire protection might be a better idea than cheap broadband.

warpaint99
12-13-2004, 02:23 PM
Listening to you people talk up private enterprise as if it were the best for big projects is funny as hell.

Nothing big would have been built in this country if it were'nt for government. Damns, highways,military,Electric,Water and space would be nowhere.

Hearing you dumb bubus using your government created internet to trash government projects to help the poor who are shut out of broadband is suck stupid hipocracy it's not even funny but sad.

I loved Enron. They did great in managing California's energy crisis .

Bell telephone monopoly was wonderful . Damn that evil government for tearing them apart.

Paying bribes to politicians to stop affordable broadband is great !!!

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 02:28 PM
Hearing you dumb bubus using your government created internet to trash government projects to help the poor who are shut out of broadband is suck stupid hipocracy it's not even funny but sad.

Providing free broadband to poor people who don't have a computer is probably even more stupid...

HC_Chief
12-13-2004, 02:29 PM
Providing free broadband to poor people who don't have a computer is probably even more stupid...

lol

No home? No job? Live in a van down by the river? Well at least you've got government-funded WiFi! :thumb:

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 02:37 PM
lol

No home? No job? Live in a van down by the river? Well at least you've got government-funded WiFi! :thumb:

Bob Dole actually had a BBS persona back in the late 80's who claimed he was posting messages from a phone booth utilizing an acousticly coupled 300b modem.

Damnit. It was funny at the time...

HC_Chief
12-13-2004, 02:38 PM
You mean you're no

warpaint99
12-13-2004, 02:39 PM
I agree we need to kill the poor.Those worthless poor people !

Jesus should have charged !

Habitat for humanity puts hard working private construction people out of work. Damn them.



When will Bob Dole pass away ? Shouldn't he be dead by now ? Kansas born , Florida living. Soon dead hopefully.

HC_Chief
12-13-2004, 02:39 PM
t doing that now?

(sorry, had to add more quarters)

HC_Chief
12-13-2004, 02:39 PM
lol

What a frigging drama queen

BigRedChief
12-13-2004, 02:55 PM
I agree we need to kill the poor.Those worthless poor people !

Jesus should have charged !

Habitat for humanity puts hard working private construction people out of work. Damn them.



When will Bob Dole pass away ? Shouldn't he be dead by now ? Kansas born , Florida living. Soon dead hopefully.
Hey I like the Bob Dole that frequents this neck of the woods (even though he's blind as a bat when it comes to conspiracies :p) Don't go dissing him or else I'll sic Taco John on you and faster than you can say Elton John who? Wham, youre gay. just look what happened to the last guy:
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1536520&postcount=2

WarPaint99 this isn't really a politically/religious forum. They have another form named "Washington DC" to discuss those issues in.

Bob Dole
12-13-2004, 03:00 PM
I agree we need to kill the poor.Those worthless poor people !

Nah. Just stop propping them up and let them die on their own.

On second thought, simply withholding free broadband will probably kill them.

patteeu
12-13-2004, 06:48 PM
I didn't say that any isp maintains user activity logs. Nobody keeps records. It's expensive and who cares? well besides marketing info.

Back to the orginal question. You are seeing this everywhere. Philly is spending 25 mil to build a free wireless zone. Just about every city is doing it and every isp, telecom is fighting it. Cities can spend there money how thet seem fit but it seems to me personally that providing money for good schools, roads and police and fire protection might be a better idea than cheap broadband.

Cheap broadband, just like good roads, modern ports/airports, low tax rates, and a well-educated workforce can attract businesses to a community and lead to increased tax receipts which can be reinvested into the community.

I see nothing wrong with a municipality trying to modernize their infrastructure in this way in order to better themselves. I tend to agree with those who think the government isn't good at running service businesses, but I have no objection to local governments trying this kind of thing. They can always outsource the project at a later date anyway if they find out they are too inefficient.

patteeu
12-13-2004, 06:50 PM
Listening to you people talk up private enterprise as if it were the best for big projects is funny as hell.

Nothing big would have been built in this country if it were'nt for government. Damns, highways,military,Electric,Water and space would be nowhere.

Hearing you dumb bubus using your government created internet to trash government projects to help the poor who are shut out of broadband is suck stupid hipocracy it's not even funny but sad.

I loved Enron. They did great in managing California's energy crisis .

Bell telephone monopoly was wonderful . Damn that evil government for tearing them apart.

Paying bribes to politicians to stop affordable broadband is great !!!

To be honest, given the content of your original post, I don't think you should be casting dumb stones in here.

Valiant
12-13-2004, 07:38 PM
You have some sort of verifiable evidence of this, or is this just an unfounded conspiracy theory?


I know google gives each computer a number and tracks what they search...

htismaqe
12-13-2004, 08:07 PM
I thought the telecoms actually owned most of the Internet backbone. I do remember that Sprint was going to have to see off theirs when they were talking about hooking up with Wolrdcom, because they would have had a near monopoly on it.

The only place something like this works well is somewhere where the local companies are not standing up and giving their customers access in small communities. In larger cities the cost, IMO, might be too much, especially when you throw in the gov't bureaucracy, having to man it 24X7, plus just building it out along with ripping up the roads...

I work for MCI and we own the legacy UUNet (AlterNet) backbone, which we got when we merged with WorldCom. We had to sell our backbone to Cable and Wireless in order to do so. AlterNet was the very first commercial Internet backbone and without it, the Internet as we know it today would not exist. The former NSFNet is also one of our backbones - we call it vBNS+.

Plus Vinton Cerf works here. He was the co-author of the IEN (pre-RFC RFC) for transmission control protocol for packet-switched networks.

beavis
12-13-2004, 09:44 PM
Listening to you people talk up private enterprise as if it were the best for big projects is funny as hell.

Nothing big would have been built in this country if it were'nt for government. Damns, highways,military,Electric,Water and space would be nowhere.

Hearing you dumb bubus using your government created internet to trash government projects to help the poor who are shut out of broadband is suck stupid hipocracy it's not even funny but sad.

I loved Enron. They did great in managing California's energy crisis .

Bell telephone monopoly was wonderful . Damn that evil government for tearing them apart.

Paying bribes to politicians to stop affordable broadband is great !!!
I still find it hilarious that you are giving the government all the credit for "creating" the Internet. The original project you keep refering to was a couple of tin cans tied together with string compared to the massive infrastructure that has been put together today.

I guess I just can't believe that someone would actually want another industry to be assimilated.

stanleychief
12-13-2004, 11:39 PM
Sorry. "The government made it so we should all get it for nothing" argument isn't going to hold up.

If you want to approach the issue from a "universal service" standpoint and build an argument that the internet has become a necessity, you might stand a chance. (Bob Dole doesn't think that will float at this point in time, either.)

Bob Dole already fought this fight with SWB over a decade ago when they attempted to re-interpret the tariff in MO and intended to charge business rates to residential customers who were found to have modems attached to their line. That case was more clear-cut than this issue, and it was still a battle...

The definition of "affordable" is going to vary substantially from market to market, and the infrastructure just isn't there to enforce any sort of standard connectivity and rate structure. Hell, there are still places where broadband isn't even available, while other lucky bastards like the residents of Keller, TX have FTTP with 15mbps service.

The impending WiMax standard should make community-based wireless broadband more realistic as the technology matures and prices drop. There are already projects in cities like Austin, where it's happening with the existing WiFi capabilities.

If you want to expend effort to make broadband affordable for the masses, then put your efforts behind community projects to do just that.

Screaming for the government to step in a regulate the revenue stream of private industry because you don't want to pay the market price for something just rubs Bob Dole the wrong way.

Wow.. I didn't think anyone remembered that fight with SBC. Did you attend the meeting at Baptist Medical center with SBC? I was there, as were a lot of other people (more than SBC thought would attend I'm sure). I used to run a BBS here in town, and it was pretty amazing to see how many people in the BBS community represented their interests that night.

Funny, after that meeting I never heard another word about the plan they came up with. I'm pretty sure SBC was hoping to slip one by the public, but once word got out, it spread through FidoNet around town. Nice to see that sometimes your voice really does matter.

Bob Dole
12-14-2004, 10:15 AM
Wow.. I didn't think anyone remembered that fight with SBC. Did you attend the meeting at Baptist Medical center with SBC? I was there, as were a lot of other people (more than SBC thought would attend I'm sure). I used to run a BBS here in town, and it was pretty amazing to see how many people in the BBS community represented their interests that night.

Funny, after that meeting I never heard another word about the plan they came up with. I'm pretty sure SBC was hoping to slip one by the public, but once word got out, it spread through FidoNet around town. Nice to see that sometimes your voice really does matter.


Actually, Bob Dole was the guy with his arm in a cast (GKCSA president) who opened the meeting and gave William Bailey the t-shirt at the end.

Small world.