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View Full Version : DV asking Gunther to revert to G Rob's schemes?


shaneo69
12-14-2004, 04:22 PM
Q: Can you expound on what you meant when you said you’re putting them under too much pressure?

VERMEIL: “I already did. I already did. Tight bump-and-run man-to-man coverage when you’re out there on an island by yourself. You can win five or six times when they’re trying to go after you, but if you’re beaten one time and it’s six points that’s the one play you lost. I think we’ve got to look at ourselves and see how many times we did it last week. We got hurt in blitz coverages which normally you’re in tight man-to-man.

“Now there’s other approach that we’ve used here in the past: zone blitz pressures like we used in the second half. Drop a defensive lineman out, rush linebackers and play zone coverages which was a scheme we used here prior. We used some of it in the second half to take some of the pressure off of just one guy on one guy.”

Q: Did you tell Gunther Cunningham to scale it back a little bit?

VERMEIL: “No, I don’t interfere with him. I talk to the coaches on the field. I talk to Peter Giunta and I made a couple of suggestions. And, I talked to Vernon Dean, coaches who are on the field and involved in the perimeter scheme.”



Does this scare anyone else?

Mr. Laz
12-14-2004, 04:25 PM
i otherwords our Cornerbacks suck too much for any scheme to be very successful



:hmmm: now where have i heard that before?

Logical
12-14-2004, 04:25 PM
It scares me that DV does not go straight to the real problem, lack of talent. It also bothers me that he bypasses Gun and goes directly to the position coaches for changes, that is a recipe for disaster.

Rausch
12-14-2004, 04:26 PM
We don't have the players to run Gun's scheme. Big suprise.

Lets not change Gun, let's get him some players. Just a thought...

ChiefsCountry
12-14-2004, 04:30 PM
Why in the hell does he talk to Peter Giunta? That guy is the worst defensive coach in history not named Greg Robinson.

ChiefsCountry
12-14-2004, 04:31 PM
It also bothers me that he bypasses Gun and goes directly to the position coaches for changes, that is a recipe for disaster.

Gunther would probally give him the Jake the Fake salute.
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/customavatars/avatar3504_2.gif

NewChief
12-14-2004, 04:35 PM
Why in the hell does he talk to Peter Giunta? That guy is the worst defensive coach in history not named Greg Robinson.

Him and Petey are buddies back from their days with the Rams. The days when the organization made him fire Petey against his will for a sucky secondary, if I remember correctly. I know Peter got fired, not sure if it was under Dick or Martz, though.

That being said, Dick said he talks to the coaches on the field. Gun isn't on the field. Giunta is.

The Bad Guy
12-14-2004, 04:38 PM
Vermeil goes to Guinta, who was the reason for the Rams 2000 collapse.

That's priceless.

That's like going to Jennifer Lopez and asking her what it takes to have a successful marriage.

Vermeil loves this razzle, dazzle, smoke and mirrors pussy defense.

Gun should tell him to F off.

KCJohnny
12-14-2004, 04:40 PM
We don't have the players to run Gun's scheme. Big suprise.

Lets not change Gun, let's get him some players. Just a thought...


Gun has proven himself on three different teams that he knows how to build a defense. Not even Buddy Ryan with his 46 defense could get a winning yield from this bunch. Or CB play is horrid. Our LBs can't tackle. Our pass rush is OK when augmented by blitzing LBs.

Guys, this defense allows 9.9 yards per play on first downs.

:shake:

I will be the first to apologize to Robinson. :( Sorry, coach.

But hey! We have nice stats and.... :(
..nevermind...

Not to be anal, but has anybody checked out Donnie "too expensive for the Chiefs" Edwards lately? Something like 32 tackles and 3 INTs the last two weeks. Do any of our ILBs have 32 tackles for the season?

Claynus
12-14-2004, 04:43 PM
If we start playing the spinner, our run D will revert to 2003 form.

Mr. Laz
12-14-2004, 04:46 PM
our cornerbacks have been costing us defensively for years.


everyone thinks it was the loss of Derrick Thomas that killed our defense.


more likely it was the loss of James hasty and Dale Carter(pre-druggie)



last year Greg Robinson pulled back the safeties to give the corners help deep. Robinson also dropped the linebackers deep into pass zones to help the cornerbacks short.

that left our 4 defensive lineman pretty much all alone to stop the run and handle the screen passes.

so we couldn't stop the run


this year gunther is pressuring the line of scrimmage... having the linebackers help in the run defense and screen passes.

the safeties come up and blitz some... basically play like safeties are supposed to IMO.

this year we are better against the run, but completely suck against the pass.


no surprise ... Robinson did everything he could to protect our suck@ss cornerbacks, Gunther told them to suck it up and play.


they couldn't :( :(

6 Iron
12-14-2004, 04:49 PM
Guys, this defense allows 9.9 yards per play on first downs.

:shake:



I heard that stat last night, but I believed they qualified it as the average of all first down pass plays. Not that it makes me feel that much better. Still, enjoyed the win.

KCJohnny
12-14-2004, 04:53 PM
I think the decision to not sign Donnie Edwards was the fatal decision. He has 128 tackles this year so far. Fujita's our best guy with 73. Unfortunately, our CBs and safteys make most of the tackles because the other team is always in our secondary.
We are dead last in points allowed.
2nd to last in yds allowed (look out, Saints).
:banghead:
The '00 Chiefs defense looks like the '85 Bears compared to this bunch. Kudos to Dv for getting the NFL's 8th best offense ('00) all the way to #2. Shame on DV for driving the 18th best defense ('00)into the hall of shame.

Warrior5
12-14-2004, 04:55 PM
Do any of our ILBs have 32 tackles for the season?

Closest is Fujita: 54 solo, 19 assists, 4.5 sacks.

Claynus
12-14-2004, 04:56 PM
Closest is Fujita: 54 solo, 19 assists, 4.5 sacks.

To be fair, Mitchell didn't start at middle linebacker until the 7th game of the season.

Chiefs Pantalones
12-14-2004, 04:58 PM
We don't have the players to run Gun's scheme. Big suprise.

Lets not change Gun, let's get him some players. Just a thought...

Amen, Brad.

We need talent bad (understatement).


Even if we had the talent to run an aggressive man-to-man defense, I think DV would still want Gun to back off a bit. I just think DV is a walking contradiction and is getting kind of wacko with old age. He's kind of liberal when it comes to offense, he wants to attack most of the time, but he's kind of like Marty a bit when it comes to 4th and 3 or 5, he gets conservative. On defense, he's totally conservative. Like I mentioned, he'd rather drop back into zone than go man-to-man, I think, no matter what, IMO. I just think the guy is kind of a nutcase when you break it down. His so-called philosophy when it comes to football has psychological mess written all over it. And FWIW, I think the whole team is soft because DV is soft. A team often plays to the personality of its coach.

Overall, I don't think he knows what he wants to do. That's why the team as a whole is inconsistent; that's why he's been inconsistent his 4 years here (mostly on D, but the O, IMO, is overrated).

Maybe the right players will change things, the type of players that have...um...what is it called?..yeah!,... talent. Or maybe not.

KCJohnny
12-14-2004, 05:02 PM
In DV's defense, a lot of teams give up yards galore between the 20s and then stiffen in the RZ. Our guys get beat on a lot of big plays.
In Gun's defense, you have to start building your D with a stout run defense. That way you CAN stiffen in the RZ when most teams that succeed in the RZ run the ball well.

Mr. Laz
12-14-2004, 05:04 PM
Amen, Brad.

We need talent bad (understatement)

weren't you one of the guys insisting that not adding talent this last offseason was ok?


thought you were one... maybe i'm wrong :shrug:

tk13
12-14-2004, 05:04 PM
If G-Rob was still here, Jared Allen would probably have 4 sacks as a situational pass rusher that was dropped back in zone several times a game... and I would've already lost my mind.

Calcountry
12-14-2004, 05:04 PM
Why in the hell does he talk to Peter Giunta? That guy is the worst defensive coach in history not named Greg Robinson.
I am sure that Gunther has now read the Planet, and found out about DV going behind his back on the internet. :thumb:

Calcountry
12-14-2004, 05:06 PM
our cornerbacks have been costing us defensively for years.


everyone thinks it was the loss of Derrick Thomas that killed our defense.


more likely it was the loss of James hasty and Dale Carter(pre-druggie)



last year Greg Robinson pulled back the safeties to give the corners help deep. Robinson also dropped the linebackers deep into pass zones to help the cornerbacks short.

that left our 4 defensive lineman pretty much all alone to stop the run and handle the screen passes.

so we couldn't stop the run


this year gunther is pressuring the line of scrimmage... having the linebackers help in the run defense and screen passes.

the safeties come up and blitz some... basically play like safeties are supposed to IMO.

this year we are better against the run, but completely suck against the pass.


no surprise ... Robinson did everything he could to protect our suck@ss cornerbacks, Gunther told them to suck it up and play.


they couldn't :( :(
That sums it up nicely.

Mr. Laz
12-14-2004, 05:06 PM
In DV's defense, a lot of teams give up yards galore between the 20s and then stiffen in the RZ. Our guys get beat on a lot of big plays.
In Gun's defense, you have to start building your D with a stout run defense. That way you CAN stiffen in the RZ when most teams that succeed in the RZ run the ball well.

that's complete crap


you need 2 cornerbacks that can man up on receivers so that you can throw everyone else at the line of scrimmage.


read a football book or sumthin' already

Claynus
12-14-2004, 05:07 PM
If G-Rob was still here, Jared Allen would probably have 4 sacks as a situational pass rusher that was dropped back in zone several times a game... and I would've already lost my mind.

ROFL

Warrior5
12-14-2004, 05:07 PM
In Gun's defense, you have to start building your D with a stout run defense. That way you CAN stiffen in the RZ when most teams that succeed in the RZ run the ball well.

After last night, KC is 15th in rush D (but 30th in pass D). I think last year, Chiefs were 30th in rush D.

Ain't exactly "taking their heart", but something to build on.

Claynus
12-14-2004, 05:09 PM
After last night, KC is 15th in rush D (but 30th in pass D). Ain't exactly "taking their heart", but something to build on.

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Calcountry
12-14-2004, 05:11 PM
Amen, Brad.

We need talent bad (understatement).


Even if we had the talent to run an aggressive man-to-man defense, I think DV would still want Gun to back off a bit. I just think DV is a walking contradiction and is getting kind of wacko with old age. He's kind of liberal when it comes to offense, he wants to attack most of the time, but he's kind of like Marty a bit when it comes to 4th and 3 or 5, he gets conservative. On defense, he's totally conservative. Like I mentioned, he'd rather drop back into zone than go man-to-man, I think, no matter what, IMO. I just think the guy is kind of a nutcase when you break it down. His so-called philosophy when it comes to football has psychological mess written all over it. And FWIW, I think the whole team is soft because DV is soft. A team often plays to the personality of its coach.

Overall, I don't think he knows what he wants to do. That's why the team as a whole is inconsistent; that's why he's been inconsistent his 4 years here (mostly on D, but the O, IMO, is overrated).

Maybe the right players will change things, the type of players that have...um...what is it called?..yeah!,... talent. Or maybe not.
Yes, the Chiefs are definitely in touch with their feminine side.

Once, my wife, who never EVER watches football, was chilling right before a game, and they had DV on their talking about how he loved Trent and started crying and stuff. My wife asks me, "Is he gay"? I mean, old man loving a young man, it wouldnt' be the first time.

I said, "No, thats just Dick."

They certainly are blaming the officials a lot for the penalties, as if that is the only reason they suck.

Chiefs Pantalones
12-14-2004, 05:12 PM
This may sound kind of bad, but I think the D did well last night for the talent that they have. They played pretty consistent Gunther style ball, but only got beat down because of lack of talent. I'm glad tk13 mentioned him, because the only player I enjoy watching play on this defense is Jared Allen. And like tk13 basically said with the example given, if we revert back to GRob style, the D will be less productive (yes, even less productive than it is, given the lack of talent).

I think we need major personnel changes on D, and upgrade the WRs this offseason. Captain Obvious strikes again.

And, I know everyone agrees with this, Gunther should stick with his scheme, because like it or not, some of these a$$holes will be back next year on defense so we shouldn't confuse them even more than they are born with. We need to stick with Gun's scheme both this year and next year, and go out this offseason and get the talent to run the scheme. Talent will make it all better.

And, I think everyone agrees with this as well, if DV tells Gun to change his scheme Gun needs to tell DV to f%ck off and that he knows more about defense than he ever will. Hell, I'd threaten to quit if I were Gun. He's trying to build something, let him be. If the players can't take the pressure, then they are pussies who shouldn't be in the NFL.

Mr. Laz
12-14-2004, 05:31 PM
After last night, KC is 15th in rush D (but 30th in pass D). I think last year, Chiefs were 30th in rush D.

Ain't exactly "taking their heart", but something to build on.

we have gained nothing... we have actually gotten worse in the stats

we just flipped our defensive emphasis

stop the run or stop the pass ... we suck at one or the other



Rush per game
Yr RK Team Total
2003 30. Kansas City 146.5
2004 13. Kansas City 112.8

pass per game
Yr RK Team Total
2003 13. Kansas City 210.2
2004 32. Kansas City 270.4

Total per game
Yr RK Team Total
2003 29. Kansas City 356.7
2004 30. Kansas City 383.2

Cannibal
12-14-2004, 06:19 PM
our cornerbacks have been costing us defensively for years.


everyone thinks it was the loss of Derrick Thomas that killed our defense.


more likely it was the loss of James hasty and Dale Carter(pre-druggie)



last year Greg Robinson pulled back the safeties to give the corners help deep. Robinson also dropped the linebackers deep into pass zones to help the cornerbacks short.

that left our 4 defensive lineman pretty much all alone to stop the run and handle the screen passes.

so we couldn't stop the run


this year gunther is pressuring the line of scrimmage... having the linebackers help in the run defense and screen passes.

the safeties come up and blitz some... basically play like safeties are supposed to IMO.

this year we are better against the run, but completely suck against the pass.


no surprise ... Robinson did everything he could to protect our suck@ss cornerbacks, Gunther told them to suck it up and play.


they couldn't :( :(

I think that about sums it up.

KCJohnny
12-14-2004, 06:44 PM
Well, Laz, the diff is, our O has not been playing with a lead most of the time like last year. The O has committed RZ turnovers, 4th quarter turnovers, apple turnovers, and just plain old giveaway turnovers, unlike last year. Dante hall won at least 2 games with return heroics last year as well. Penalties have killed us and losing the NFL's best offensive player to injury hasn't helped. Its amazing that the Chiefs won last night with only 22 min TOP.

Look, this D is bad, but you HAVE to stop the run in the NFL or you're even deader than we are now. I agree with Cunningham's focus on stopping the run and trying to help our hapless secondary with generous blitz packages. It sure as heck worked against Michael Vick. We need another Hasty. One shutdown corner takes away a third of the entire field. Zero shutdown CBs = an open invitation to go over the top of even a good run defense.

warpaint99
12-14-2004, 07:05 PM
If the Chiefs had insanely awesome Dtackles then they could get away with more that 2 db 's on the wr's like what Tampa could do when they had a great Warren Sapp.

Only they could get away with that and not worry about the run.

Tampa's scheme was not to worry about the run but more about stopping the pass since their line dominated. They had like 2 LB playing run . The other was to stop the pass. Don't quote me on this.

They can't play that way anymore but thats the advantage of having a great player.

Valiant
12-14-2004, 07:25 PM
In DV's defense, a lot of teams give up yards galore between the 20s and then stiffen in the RZ. Our guys get beat on a lot of big plays.
In Gun's defense, you have to start building your D with a stout run defense. That way you CAN stiffen in the RZ when most teams that succeed in the RZ run the ball well.


We are tied for 25th in rushing average on defense... 4.5 yards a play..

Earthling
12-14-2004, 08:46 PM
It scares me that DV does not go straight to the real problem, lack of talent. It also bothers me that he bypasses Gun and goes directly to the position coaches for changes, that is a recipe for disaster.
Exactly my take as well...

Wichita Lineman
12-15-2004, 08:55 AM
We have the right scheme and the right D coach. DV knows that but he can't come out and say that his players suck and he's going to replace the assholes until after the last game or everyone would give up on him.

donkhater
12-15-2004, 09:01 AM
Zone is not a bad defense, guys. But when you rush your linebacker and safeties and drop your 300-lb lineman into coverage, it is a bad defense.

Mr. Laz
12-15-2004, 01:51 PM
Zone is not a bad defense, guys. But when you rush your linebacker and safeties and drop your 300-lb lineman into coverage, it is a bad defense.

wrong again... teams with good defense drop lineman back into coverage all that time and still are successful.


our blitzers dont get there when they blitz because the offenses can keep max coverage and send out minimum receivers BECAUSE WE CAN'T cover with a crap.


our safeties can't cover any tightends... our corners can't cover wide recievers.


if you can't cover, nothing else really works.

Cochise
12-15-2004, 01:54 PM
It all starts with the corners.

We don't have the corners to play ANY defense, let alone a pressure defense.

go bowe
12-15-2004, 01:56 PM
It all starts with the corners.

We don't have the corners to play ANY defense, let alone a pressure defense.sad, but true (mostly, warfield is adequate as a #2 cb)...