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Hoover
12-17-2004, 08:14 AM
So last night I took my employees and friends to the Casion to play in a Texas Holdem No Limit Poker Tourney. $50 buy in, I paid for my employees.

I've played card for money since I was about 12. I'm not the big of a poker player but I watch it on TV and have good card smarts.

Anyway out of 100 players, I finished 3rd, and won $700 bucks. Not bad.

But I should have won. What would you have done with this last hand.

Only 4 players left.

5000 & 10,000 blinds

I have the second most chips but its real close.

I'm in for the big blind.

First player goes all in, he has a short stack.

Second player goes all in has the most chips.

I have pocket 10s. its getting late i know I have 700 buck in my pocket so I go all in.

4th player folds. (he has a short stack)

We flip the cards and player #2 has pocket Kings vs my pocket 10's.

I almost flop a Club Flush, but I lose.

My question: Knoing that I had the second most chips and almost had the most chips, once player #2 went all in should I have folded pocket 10's and played to finsh 2nd fo an extra 200 bucks?

morphius
12-17-2004, 08:18 AM
I would have seriously thought about folding, know that he either had the high pair or was sitting with an A K, but I'm not over aggressive either. Now if he would have just called the short stack all in, sure, but to go all in himself...

RedNeckRaider
12-17-2004, 08:22 AM
I would have to have been around the other players to maybe get a read or tell, or at least know the style. That said pocket 10s flush working I shove in the chips.

Dartgod
12-17-2004, 08:22 AM
I'd have probably played it the same way.

But then again, I'm a loser, so take that in to account...

donkhater
12-17-2004, 08:23 AM
I would have folded. When two players go all in in front of you, it isn't good even if one had a short stack. If I had pocket queens or higher I would've probably called, though.

morphius
12-17-2004, 08:24 AM
Of course I should have also premised my post by the fact that my luck is absolutey crappy.

Hoover
12-17-2004, 08:25 AM
It was four handed so I really liked my odds

RedNeckRaider
12-17-2004, 08:25 AM
Of course I should have also premised my post by the fact that my luck is absolutey crappy.
I failed to bring up the fact my agressive style gets me burned alot.

morphius
12-17-2004, 08:30 AM
It was four handed so I really liked my odds
It was really one of those flip a coin situations, even with a higher pair you still have the same chance to get your matching 10 as he does his King.

BigRedChief
12-17-2004, 08:49 AM
I probably would have folded since I was high stacked but if I knew he bluffed a lot during the game I would have stayed in. But you defintly didn't misplay the hand. It was a good decision. Just the way the cards fell. Can I help you spend the money?

Hoover
12-17-2004, 08:58 AM
I probably would have folded since I was high stacked but if I knew he bluffed a lot during the game I would have stayed in. But you defintly didn't misplay the hand. It was a good decision. Just the way the cards fell. Can I help you spend the money?
No its gone my employees drink a lot. Then they had to have some food.

beavis
12-17-2004, 08:58 AM
I would have folded. When two players go all in in front of you, it isn't good even if one had a short stack. If I had pocket queens or higher I would've probably called, though.
This is dead on, it's almost never a good idea to call off a lot of chips when two players have gone all in ahead of you. It'd take a monster hand to do it.

Heads up, against a short stack, I would have done it in a second. At worst you are probably up against two overcards, in which case you are a slight favorite to win the hand.

Hoover
12-17-2004, 09:01 AM
This is dead on, it's almost never a good idea to call off a lot of chips when two players have gone all in ahead of you. It'd take a monster hand to do it.

Heads up, against a short stack, I would have done it in a second. At worst you are probably up against two overcards, in which case you are a slight favorite to win the hand.
But the guy who went all in (Player #2) bet 80K on a pair of jacks 3 hands before. My thinking is he went all in to scare me off, knowing that if it was head to head action his bet was really only what player 1 put in.

Iowanian
12-17-2004, 09:05 AM
I'm an aggressive player.............I tend to think that short stacks are desperate and will try to buy blinds.

Pocket 2 or 3s, I think about folding...............Pocket 10s, I'm reRaising or going all in....assuming they've got a small pair or some high cards.............hoping I can hit trips.

Hoover
12-17-2004, 09:19 AM
I'm an aggressive player.............I tend to think that short stacks are desperate and will try to buy blinds.

Pocket 2 or 3s, I think about folding...............Pocket 10s, I'm reRaising or going all in....assuming they've got a small pair or some high cards.............hoping I can hit trips.
yep that was my thinking.

Man I had a blast. I love to gamble. I've gambled 3 times sice November and wone over 300 bucks each time. So I got the bug, but must stay away for about 6 months.

donkhater
12-17-2004, 09:21 AM
From what it sounds three things led you to call the bet..

1) You were in the big blind
2) It was late and you were satisfied with your showing (with a reasonable chance to do better)
3) maybe you hadn't seen good cards in a while and got itchy.

Everyone's different. Personally, I would have folded. Heads up or even with three people left I'd probably play that hand all-in or even raise all-in, but I don't think I would call all-in when two players are already there.

Pocket tens are good cards to open with or raise with, but a risky call for a 3-way all-in.

Iowanian
12-17-2004, 09:23 AM
I go play poker about every time I go to the folks, without the bride................never done a tourn like that, but would like to. I do alright in the 2-4 or 3-6 games, but I'm told their all changing to 4-8 min when Prairie meadows starts(which I think they did).

I play at a bar sometimes...12 players, $20 buy in games....winner take all NL. First time I played, I won the first 2 games, and all of the sudden, it wasn't the "friendly game" they'd been talking about.

I've got enough Poker winnings in a jar to buy us a decent Digital camera for Christmas.....

Its better than a kick to the baows.

beavis
12-17-2004, 09:25 AM
But the guy who went all in (Player #2) bet 80K on a pair of jacks 3 hands before. My thinking is he went all in to scare me off, knowing that if it was head to head action his bet was really only what player 1 put in.
Doesn't matter if you had Aces, when two players go all in ahead of you, it reduces the value of any hand. Especially a medium pair like 10's. You want to be the aggressor going all in, not the one calling.

Hoover
12-17-2004, 09:25 AM
From what it sounds three things led you to call the bet..

1) You were in the big blind
2) It was late and you were satisfied with your showing (with a reasonable chance to do better)
3) maybe you hadn't seen good cards in a while and got itchy.

Everyone's different. Personally, I would have folded. Heads up or even with three people left I'd probably play that hand all-in or even raise all-in, but I don't think I would call all-in when two players are already there.

Pocket tens are good cards to open with or raise with, but a risky call for a 3-way all-in.
All the betting was done before the flop btw

Hoover
12-17-2004, 09:28 AM
I go play poker about every time I go to the folks, without the bride................never done a tourn like that, but would like to. I do alright in the 2-4 or 3-6 games, but I'm told their all changing to 4-8 min when Prairie meadows starts(which I think they did).

I play at a bar sometimes...12 players, $20 buy in games....winner take all NL. First time I played, I won the first 2 games, and all of the sudden, it wasn't the "friendly game" they'd been talking about.

I've got enough Poker winnings in a jar to buy us a decent Digital camera for Christmas.....

Its better than a kick to the baows.
We should go play in a tourney in the Spring, I need to wait a while. I know the Indian Casino in Tama have tourneys every Wed and Thursday night.

sevenand7kc
12-17-2004, 09:30 AM
All the betting was done before the flop btw

I was just about to ask that. I've been in that situation before and it's difficult to lay down a good hand like that.

Congrats though on finishing where you did - that's AWESOME!!!

I think the planet should have a free tourney sometime to hang out and throw a few beers down.

Iowanian
12-17-2004, 09:33 AM
I'm a couple of hrs from the Casino Owner Americans, but that sounds alright to me....let me know when one is coming up and we'll go take their money.................when I win, I'll give some to 37forever.

cheeeefs
12-17-2004, 09:38 AM
all ins before the flop is sloppy poker at best IMO I always stay away from them unles I'm holding the nuts (AA or AKs, AK, KK) any other pocket pairs I fold off unless it's relatively cheap to call it in. (not with four hands, but I usually play with 10 people and it changes the odds). Playing against 4 it wasn't exactly a horrid call, but it wasn't the right one. You mentioned almost hitting the flush, but with pairs that means you needed four on board to get the flush which means you can't really count that as an out because 10 isn't a high card for a flush so you have to count that as a probable out for someone else as well.

pocket 10's and below are what I call trap cards, its best to see the flop if its cheap and if you don't hit trips or have high pair against the board check/fold. It's even odds if there is one overpair on the board, but not A/K especially if someone juiced the pot before the flop. (if they are good, tight players) people don't juice the pot unless they have A/K somewhere. and even loose players will juice a pot with A/X or K/q/j/10 esp if suited. if you think in terms of outs all of the following hands are better starting hands then pocket tens AA KK QQ JJ AK AQ AJ KQ KJ all have more outs then pocket tens. if no ten drops any overcard is going to overpair your tens. Against a short stack alone going all in pre-flop I'd go for it, but when the second guy went all in behind him you definately should have folded.

KC Dan
12-17-2004, 09:55 AM
I'd have probably played it the same way.

But then again, I'm a loser, so take that in to account...
sshhhh!!! .......... Are those crickets, I hear?

Dartgod
12-17-2004, 10:02 AM
sshhhh!!! .......... Are those crickets, I hear?
We were playing a tourney at our house about a month ago with twleve players. Started with six per table and then merged when we got to three at each. Anyway, it's down to me and this gal my wife is friends with and I'm leading in chips. The blinds were up there and the flop showed nothing so I decided to try to buy the pot with a big bet. She called. Next card up shows nothing so I bet big again. She called again. As soon as the river card is shown, she lays down her cards and says, "I go the straight". Well we hadn't bet yet, and there were four spades on the board so I go all in. Figuring she will see the flush draw assume her straight is beat and lay down. Nope. She freaking calls me again and I have NOTHING! I couldn't believe it. She ended up winning the tourney a few hands later. :shake:

cheeeefs
12-17-2004, 10:03 AM
and I'd definately do a chiefsplanet poker tourney

tons of online places it can be done. I know that the planet used to hold lots of small poker games, and I don't know where they did it. But some of the best freeplay poker I've found so far is at pokerplanet.com if you play the 5/10 and the PL NL games people play almost close to as if it was real money, just stay away from the big money NL games because no one respects their money it's just all in all in all in.

I can't today because I have an exam in a few hours, and am going to go wash oceans twelve. but if I'm around I'd play for sure.

KC Dan
12-17-2004, 10:12 AM
We were playing a tourney at our house about a month ago with twleve players. Started with six per table and then merged when we got to three at each. Anyway, it's down to me and this gal my wife is friends with and I'm leading in chips. The blinds were up there and the flop showed nothing so I decided to try to buy the pot with a big bet. She called. Next card up shows nothing so I bet big again. She called again. As soon as the river card is shown, she lays down her cards and says, "I go the straight". Well we hadn't bet yet, and there were four spades on the board so I go all in. Figuring she will see the flush draw assume her straight is beat and lay down. Nope. She freaking calls me again and I have NOTHING! I couldn't believe it. She ended up winning the tourney a few hands later. :shake:
LMAO! I have done the very same thing. Nothing like getting burned by a dumbazz player that doesn't know what they should do or do they read us like a paper? Hmmm.... something to think about.

cheeeefs
12-17-2004, 10:16 AM
LMAO! I have done the very same thing. Nothing like getting burned by a dumbazz player that doesn't know what they should do or do they read us like a paper? Hmmm.... something to think about.

yeah I've learned the hard way... NEVER try to bluff someone who doesn't know how to play. Their strong suit is that they are in every pot so if the cards are hot they are going to clean up, if the cards are cold they will be out first. Stay away from them unless your holding the nuts.

Iowanian
12-17-2004, 10:17 AM
Dart....thats almost as bad as playing against "Mr 3-7 offsuit" and having them hit trips and boats right and left vs your AA KK.

sevenand7kc
12-17-2004, 10:26 AM
yeah I've learned the hard way... NEVER try to bluff someone who doesn't know how to play. Their strong suit is that they are in every pot so if the cards are hot they are going to clean up, if the cards are cold they will be out first. Stay away from them unless your holding the nuts.

So so so very true. Someone that doesn't know how to play very well will pay to see every flop. It doesn't matter how much you bet at some of them, they will just continue to call you.

About a month ago. we had a tourney and had 22 people playing. We were teaching a newbie how to play. It's down to final table of 8. Preflop I'm holding JJ and in big blind. I raise. 8 people at the table. 2 callers. Flop comes J, 4, 10 - no possible flushes yet. Check check to me. I am sitting with 3500 in chips - I move all in with my trip Jacks.

Person short stacked called me with $500 ( I guessed he would). Comes around to the newbie - he counts up his chips and has 3700 so he looks at me and says your bluffing I call.

Hands are shown, Short stacked has K 10 suited, newbie has A 7 offsuit. I can not believe he called a $3500 bet on that

Turn comes a K. Don't have to worry about short stacked - even if he gets his 3rd king I get my boat.

River comes a Q. I DO NOT see the straight. I'm getting ready to pull in the chips and the person to might right mumbles huh 10, J, Q, K, A - that's when I realize what he had. I was disgusted by it.

Oh we played a week later and he was the first one out ;) I had the nuts and put him all in about 30 minutes into it.

Gotta love the game though!

cheeeefs
12-17-2004, 10:45 AM
So so so very true. Someone that doesn't know how to play very well will pay to see every flop. It doesn't matter how much you bet at some of them, they will just continue to call you.

About a month ago. we had a tourney and had 22 people playing. We were teaching a newbie how to play. It's down to final table of 8. Preflop I'm holding JJ and in big blind. I raise. 8 people at the table. 2 callers. Flop comes J, 4, 10 - no possible flushes yet. Check check to me. I am sitting with 3500 in chips - I move all in with my trip Jacks.

Person short stacked called me with $500 ( I guessed he would). Comes around to the newbie - he counts up his chips and has 3700 so he looks at me and says your bluffing I call.

Hands are shown, Short stacked has K 10 suited, newbie has A 7 offsuit. I can not believe he called a $3500 bet on that

Turn comes a K. Don't have to worry about short stacked - even if he gets his 3rd king I get my boat.

River comes a Q. I DO NOT see the straight. I'm getting ready to pull in the chips and the person to might right mumbles huh 10, J, Q, K, A - that's when I realize what he had. I was disgusted by it.

Oh we played a week later and he was the first one out ;) I had the nuts and put him all in about 30 minutes into it.

Gotta love the game though!


heh that's classic. just to expound upon this a little that guy would be called a "call station" they won't bet over you unless they really have something, but they will call down anything you have... I don't know if it's because they assume experienced players are trying to muscle them with a bluff, or they don't understand pot odds on calling for a draw... but they are always there, and like I said, if the cards are hot they can hit you hard. Then you have Maniacs you overbet on anything (my personal favorite) and tight players etc..

You can fit any poker player into 4 categories and there play will not deviate from that norm very often. Call stations, maniacs, tight players, and then solid players. if you can accurately categorize the table and know how to shift your play accordingly you should be able to hang in there. some of the adjustments are simple, never bluff a call station or a maniac, if you hold the nuts re-raise either you won't push them out but they will most assuredly juice your pot, you can bluff a tight player by re-raising a tight player is adviseable unless he calls you down or re-raises you back if he does get the hell out.. always slow play a tight player if you hold the nuts, and fast play him to push him out of the pot before he sees the turn/river if you are betting on a draw. A Solid player, well you just never know... most solid players you will have categorized as a tight player because IMO you have to play your cards tight until you get some table image. the only way to tell the difference between a solid player and a tight player is to watch what kind of hands they win off of. and it's not an exact science. I need to learn to play a little tighter I'm still a poker fish hoping to be a shark someday. I know how I should play, I just need to learn to stick to it...

ENDelt260
12-17-2004, 10:48 AM
I think the planet should have a free tourney sometime

And, who do you suggest bankroll the prizes?

sevenand7kc
12-17-2004, 10:50 AM
And, who do you suggest bankroll the prizes?

Just a little braggin' rights is all.

Of course if anyone is in the KC Metro area and wants to hook up for a game sometime drop me a line. We try to play atleast once a month for about $20. Nothing to major, just enough to have an excuse to get away from the little lady and the kids for an evening of entertainment that is cheaper than going to a bar.

cheeeefs
12-17-2004, 10:52 AM
And, who do you suggest bankroll the prizes?

yeah, doesn't need to be for money... it sounds like we have a lot of people who know how to play. Would be fun.

ENDelt260
12-17-2004, 10:54 AM
Months ago, folks from here used to play free games at pokerroom.com

I don't figure I'd be interested in poker that doesn't involve folks putting up money. The game just feels different if I don't have some cash invested.

Hoover
12-17-2004, 10:55 AM
yeah, doesn't need to be for money... it sounds like we have a lot of people who know how to play. Would be fun.
Yeah I'm all in


:D

Swanman
12-17-2004, 10:55 AM
In that particular case, I would have folded the pocket 10s. I may have called with pocket Q/K/A. With that said, pocket 10s is a strong hand if you don't have to push all your chips in.

cheeeefs
12-17-2004, 10:56 AM
Months ago, folks from here used to play free games at pokerroom.com

I don't figure I'd be interested in poker that doesn't involve folks putting up money. The game just feels different if I don't have some cash invested.

it is played a lot different without cash. but I was hoping the bragging rights would reign in people enough to play like it meant something. I wouldn't mind putting up money, like 10/20 bucks winner takes all... but obviously it would have to be a pain to pay out, everyone would have to mail in the 20 bucks heh.

BigRedChief
12-17-2004, 10:57 AM
Months ago, folks from here used to play free games at pokerroom.com

I don't figure I'd be interested in poker that doesn't involve folks putting up money. The game just feels different if I don't have some cash invested.

Yeah I use to go to those games with Tommykat and others but its just not the same without cash on the line.

I know at pokerroom.com we could set up a private table, 10 players, everyone chips in $5.00 and first place gets $25, 2nd $15 and 3rd place $10. Anybody interested in something like that?

sevenand7kc
12-17-2004, 10:58 AM
but obviously it would have to be a pain to pay out, everyone would have to mail in the 20 bucks heh.

Paypal. . . .anyone???
Paypal???

Dartgod
12-17-2004, 11:00 AM
LMAO! I have done the very same thing. Nothing like getting burned by a dumbazz player that doesn't know what they should do or do they read us like a paper? Hmmm.... something to think about.
She had no clue what she was doing and had been getting lucky all night. I should have recognized that. Lesson learned though.

Dartgod
12-17-2004, 11:02 AM
Yeah I use to go to those games with Tommykat and others but its just not the same without cash on the line.

I know at pokerroom.com we could set up a private table, 10 players, everyone chips in $5.00 and first place gets $25, 2nd $15 and 3rd place $10. Anybody interested in something like that?
I would be...

beavis
12-17-2004, 11:05 AM
She had no clue what she was doing and had been getting lucky all night. I should have recognized that. Lesson learned though.
If she's the type that would call you with Ace high, you've got to anticipate that she'll call you with the straight. Shoulda taken the opportunity to lay it down.

I have a hard time with this concept myself.

BigRedChief
12-17-2004, 11:26 AM
Paypal. . . .anyone???
Paypal???
We do a ChiefsPlanet poker table on pokerroom.com as soon as the tourney is over the winnings is automaticaly deposited into your account.

BigRedChief
12-17-2004, 11:37 AM
We do a ChiefsPlanet poker table on pokerroom.com as soon as the tourney is over the winnings is automaticaly deposited into your account.

i made a new thread to see if there is interest in a real money Chiefsplanet tourney here
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=106605

yunghungwell
12-17-2004, 12:47 PM
Here is what I would have done...Lay my wang out on the table and said, "Can you beat that?"...Oh, wait, I think that I have the wrong billboard here...sorry. :doh!:

beavis
12-17-2004, 02:06 PM
Here is what I would have done...Lay my wang out on the table and said, "Can you beat that?"...Oh, wait, I think that I have the wrong billboard here...sorry. :doh!:
I think 3 is the minimum bet.