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Mr. Christopher
12-19-2004, 04:47 PM
With a disappointing 2004 season winding to a close, and the Chiefs once again on a winning streak of three games, I'm beginning to become a little more optimistic about next season. Perhaps it's foolish optimism, but I'm a homer...it comes with being a fan.

Offensively, I think the Chiefs look pretty good. We may need to look depth on the Oline and (dare I say it) a full back in the event that T Rich will call it quits soon. That being said, the only glaring need of offense is a true #1 WR.

Defensively, there's obviously a lot of evaluation that needs to be done. For years, I've disagreed with those that say we need to draft a starting corner, because I thought that we had greater needs to fill.

1. Draft a CB #1, or pick up a proven FA, but don't leave this position unaddressed this year. Bartee HAS to go, and everyone else needs to be pushed to keep their jobs this year in training camp. I'd almost be in favor of picking up two CBs in the offseason, and let competition solidify that group.

2. Pick up a legitimate Defensive End to play opposite Jared Allen. Allen has been a good surprise on defense, but Hicks, Holliday, Stills, and whoever else have been majorly disappointing for quite some time. I'd suggest using the draft to shore up this position, but it seems to me we've already gone that route and failed.

3. We need a leader on defense, and I'd like to see that in a solid MLB. We really haven't had a decent field general in this position since Marvcus Patton, and he was on the tail end of his career. I'd like to see a veteran brought in to man this position, but if we pick up a decent prospect in the middle rounds of the draft, I'd be pretty happy with that, too. We've had pretty decent luck over the years drafting LB in the middle rounds.

4. Outside linebacking is also a concern, and partially due to injury this season. Nevertheless, I think we need a whole lot of speed and physical presence on the defensive side of the ball, and I think that a solid, fast OLB to play opposite Fujita would help a lot.

5. DT and safety need help, too, but not as much as the aforementioned other positions. At DT, we've tried to fix the problems there, and failed. I think with Sims, Dalton, Browning, and Siavii in the middle, we're at least marginally better than we were a few years ago. I'd like to see the Chiefs sit on this one for a little while and hope for more development from these players next year. But if there happens to be a decent tackle fall to them in the draft or FA, I'd like to see them take him.

At safety, I feel the most comfortable with the current staff, excluding the injury problems. As long as Woods and Wesely are healthy, this position is very solid. And due to the past injuries, our backups have pretty good experience here. As long as we shore up the corner position, I don't think that we'll have near as much hassle from the secondary as a whole.

6. I'm not sold on Tynes at the placekicking position. I've seen him miss some pretty easy FGs, and his kickoffs are atrocious. I know Peterson won't do it, but I would be in favor of drafting a place kicker in the later rounds of the draft.

Other than that, the only thing left I need to see defensively is just better fundamentals in general. We need players who are disciplined enough to stay in their positions, and make plays. The two biggest things that frustrate me are when they get a hand on someone in the backfield and fail to wrap up the tackle, and when they misjudge and open field tackle, and miss their assignment which goes another five or ten yards down the field. That and something HAS to be done about our third and long situation. Again, speed and pass rush will help tremendously with this phase of the game.

Well, take my discussion for what it's worth. These are just my thoughts on what I've seen. I fully admit that my observation is probably short sited of a few things, and I will welcome the opinions of others who care to comment.

Deberg_1990
12-19-2004, 04:56 PM
2. Pick up a legitimate Defensive End to play opposite Jared Allen. Allen has been a good surprise on defense, but Hicks, Holliday, Stills, and whoever else have been majorly disappointing for quite some time. I'd suggest using the draft to shore up this position, but it seems to me we've already gone that route and failed.

(Jon Abraham from the Jets would make anice bookend with Allen if we can get him?)

3. We need a leader on defense, and I'd like to see that in a solid MLB. We really haven't had a decent field general in this position since Marvcus Patton, and he was on the tail end of his career. I'd like to see a veteran brought in to man this position, but if we pick up a decent prospect in the middle rounds of the draft, I'd be pretty happy with that, too. We've had pretty decent luck over the years drafting LB in the middle rounds.

(Wish we could have tanked a few more games to get D Johnson from Texas)


At safety, I feel the most comfortable with the current staff, excluding the injury problems. As long as Woods and Wesely are healthy, this position is very solid. And due to the past injuries, our backups have pretty good experience here. As long as we shore up the corner position, I don't think that we'll have near as much hassle from the secondary as a whole.

(Woods is solid?? What have you been smoking during games this season???) He needs to go


And your right, A true CB should be drafted not once but twice in this draft.

tomahawk
12-19-2004, 05:10 PM
and I think that a solid, fast OLB to play opposite Fujita would help a lot.



Fujita = overated also. Chiefs can improve here also.

Mr. Christopher
12-19-2004, 05:11 PM
(Woods is solid?? What have you been smoking during games this season???) He needs to go

That's the kind of input I need. When I watch the Chiefs, I don't get sound, so often it's hard for me to determine who's even on the field, let alone who's getting burned or blowing plays. I guess I was just going on past performance, and on the basis that both our starters have been plagued with injuries these later years.

Mr. Christopher
12-19-2004, 05:13 PM
Fujita = overated also. Chiefs can improve here also.
But SHOULD they. Do I think he is overrated, yes. So is Mitchell, so is pretty much everyone else on the LB corps. But given the number of holes we have on defense, I think that this is one area that the Chiefs could leave alone in order to fill other positions of need.

Deberg_1990
12-19-2004, 05:15 PM
That's the kind of input I need. When I watch the Chiefs, I don't get sound, so often it's hard for me to determine who's even on the field, let alone who's getting burned or blowing plays. I guess I was just going on past performance, and on the basis that both our starters have been plagued with injuries these later years.


Yea, sorry about that then. Its pretty wideley accepted on this board that Woods has had a lousy season and needs to be cut. He used to be good but has lost a step or 2 it appears.

MichaelH
12-19-2004, 05:16 PM
My opinion is don't let anyone make you believe they're a star. One good game by any defensive player for the 2004 Chiefs has to be chaulked up to luck. No matter who may be mentioned that plays defense, there's more negatives than postives. There's some players that might earn the right to stay next year, but there's few to none that have earned a starting spot in my opinion.

Raiderhader
12-19-2004, 05:16 PM
Fujita = overated also. Chiefs can improve here also.


I'm not so sure. Remember that his supporting cast has not played well and that he is learning a new system. I think he will look much better next year with this learning curve behind him.

RINGLEADER
12-19-2004, 05:18 PM
The Chiefs aren't a complete trainwreck. Even with the crap defense we could have (and probably should have) won four close games against the Bolts, Bucs, Saints and Texans. Should also have probably beaten the Jaguars. The unfortunate thing is that we're saying the same thing this year that we've been saying for the past two seasons: if our defense could just be average we'd win the Super Bowl. I think it still holds true next year provided Green doesn't fall off the deep end or we don't have a bunch of injuries.

Mr. Christopher
12-19-2004, 05:18 PM
My opinion is don't let anyone make you believe they're a star. One good game by any defensive player for the 2004 Chiefs has to be chaulked up to luck. No matter who may be mentioned that plays defense, there's more negatives than postives. There's some players that might earn the right to stay next year, but there's few to none that have earned a starting spot in my opinion.
That's a great point. I don't think that there's anyone on this defensive squad that I would feel confident in giving the starting job outright. There have been a few solid players at times, but none that are standouts in any way.

Deberg_1990
12-19-2004, 05:20 PM
My opinion is don't let anyone make you believe they're a star. One good game by any defensive player for the 2004 Chiefs has to be chaulked up to luck. No matter who may be mentioned that plays defense, there's more negatives than postives. There's some players that might earn the right to stay next year, but there's few to none that have earned a starting spot in my opinion.

Great post! Ive been saying this as well. I hope Management doesnt get fooled into thinking this is a better team that it really is.

Mr. Christopher
12-19-2004, 05:20 PM
I'm not so sure. Remember that his supporting cast has not played well and that he is learning a new system. I think he will look much better next year with this learning curve behind him.
Jamie, good to see you again!

I think you're right about this, and that there are several other players on defense whose performances would be greatly enhanced by the additions of legitimate starters at CB, DE, and LB positions through draft and FA.

Raiderhader
12-19-2004, 05:20 PM
That's a great point. I don't think that there's anyone on this defensive squad that I would feel confident in giving the starting job outright. There have been a few solid players at times, but none that are standouts in any way.


Dalton and Allen are locks in my book. But that is me.

Claynus
12-19-2004, 05:21 PM
Fujita had a breakthrough game according to Gunther on the postgame.

I'm all for keeping him.

Hopefully our lineup next year looks like this:

Allen
Dalton
Sims/Siavii
FA DE

FA/Rook ROLB
Edgerton Hartwell
Fujita

FA/Rook CB
Harts/FA FS
Wesley
Warfield

Mr. Christopher
12-19-2004, 05:23 PM
The Chiefs aren't a complete trainwreck. Even with the crap defense we could have (and probably should have) won four close games against the Bolts, Bucs, Saints and Texans. Should also have probably beaten the Jaguars. The unfortunate thing is that we're saying the same thing this year that we've been saying for the past two seasons: if our defense could just be average we'd win the Super Bowl. I think it still holds true next year provided Green doesn't fall off the deep end or we don't have a bunch of injuries.
What concerns me is that these are the last two years with the current personnel on offense, IMO. How much longer can our line hold up? How much longer can we keep the same chemistry in the RB position? How many of our offensive players are going to be coming up on contract years? What happens when DV leaves, and puts the reins in Saunders hands?

There are so many questions around the offense in the upcoming couple of years, that I think it's paramount that something is done on defense NOW...otherwise wait another five years for a hope of a playoff team.

Mr. Christopher
12-19-2004, 05:25 PM
Edgerton Hartwell


Who is Hartwell?

Raiderhader
12-19-2004, 05:26 PM
Jamie, good to see you again!

I think you're right about this, and that there are several other players on defense whose performances would be greatly enhanced by the additions of legitimate starters at CB, DE, and LB positions through draft and FA.


Yeah, I meant to add that it was nice of you to crawl out from underneath that rock you have been hiding under. ;)

Help at corner and safety (though Harts and Pile seem to be doing alright at the moment) would make a lot of difference. Also someone opposite Fuji would make a world of difference. Our run D is improving, perhaps not as quickly as we would like, but it is doing better. I think Mitchell should be better next year, and with someone to take Barber's place we should do better there. A couple of people on the D-line to compliment Allen and Dalton with the pass rush, and I think things start coming together much faster.

But, what do I know?

Raiderhader
12-19-2004, 05:28 PM
What concerns me is that these are the last two years with the current personnel on offense, IMO. How much longer can our line hold up? How much longer can we keep the same chemistry in the RB position? How many of our offensive players are going to be coming up on contract years? What happens when DV leaves, and puts the reins in Saunders hands?

There are so many questions around the offense in the upcoming couple of years, that I think it's paramount that something is done on defense NOW...otherwise wait another five years for a hope of a playoff team.



Run for the hills and prepair for Martz II.

That is my fear anyway.

tomahawk
12-19-2004, 05:29 PM
Fujita should not be necessarily let go, but he should be given stiff competition. Really can't think of any significant thing he has done the last two seasons. But then again thats could be the whole Chiefs D. :(

Mr. Christopher
12-19-2004, 05:30 PM
Yeah, I meant to add that it was nice of you to crawl out from underneath that rock you have been hiding under. ;)


Hey, I'm just ashamed that you passed me on rep and post total; how could I crawl back to CP with so few posts to my name???

I like what I've seen with Allen. I was not so sold on Dalton, but neither have I had as many complaints on the interior of the DLine as on the ends. As long as someone is added to the strong side end, I think our line will do fairly well (given that the other ingredients are added to the LB and secondary).

Raiderhader
12-19-2004, 05:31 PM
Fujita should not be necessarily let go, but he should be given stiff competition. Really can't think of any significant thing he has done the last two seasons. But then again thats could be the whole Chiefs D. :(


By all means, I am for that with every player, including Priest, Gonzo, and Trent. May the best man win.

Raiderhader
12-19-2004, 05:34 PM
Hey, I'm just ashamed that you passed me on rep and post total; how could I crawl back to CP with so few posts to my name???

Well, it would not have been so bad had you not given me crap during the time that I had my "little" slump. :)

I like what I've seen with Allen. I was not so sold on Dalton, but neither have I had as many complaints on the interior of the DLine as on the ends. As long as someone is added to the strong side end, I think our line will do fairly well (given that the other ingredients are added to the LB and secondary).

Dalton is the second biggest surprise on the D-line after Allen. We can get by with what we have now, I believe, but there is some trash that I would prefer to take out if given the choice.

Mr. Christopher
12-19-2004, 05:38 PM
By all means, I for that with every player, including Priest, Gonzo, and Trent. May the best man win.

Should we not also be looking at a new QB for a couple years down the road?

Raiderhader
12-19-2004, 05:44 PM
Should we not also be looking at a new QB for a couple years down the road?

Oh hell, I've only been dreaming of a QBOTF since the days of Marty. Yes, yes we should.

tomahawk
12-19-2004, 05:47 PM
Should we not also be looking at a new QB for a couple years down the road



Absolutely! And after watching Quinn play for the Bears this year, he needs to be coached! I mean if you're going to pay a third, at least make it for someone who could potentially play in the league.

Nightfyre
12-19-2004, 05:50 PM
How about Maz coming back next year, eh fellas?

Mr. Christopher
12-19-2004, 05:52 PM
Absolutely! And after watching Quinn play for the Bears this year, he needs to be coached! I mean if you're going to pay a third, at least make it for someone who could potentially play in the league.

After watching Hutchinson play, I'd almost have hopes that a legitimate QBoTF could be out there.

Rain Man
12-19-2004, 05:54 PM
How about Maz coming back next year, eh fellas?


If Maz could come back with no loss of mobility, that'd be huge. Then we could draft an OLB or CB and have a decent MLB as well. I just doubt that it'll happen.

Nightfyre
12-19-2004, 05:56 PM
If Maz could come back with no loss of mobility, that'd be huge. Then we could draft an OLB or CB and have a decent MLB as well. I just doubt that it'll happen.
He had better damn well make our three years of waiting with a roster spot reserved for him worth it.

tomahawk
12-19-2004, 06:02 PM
I'd almost have hopes that a legitimate QBoTF could be out there.


I agree. However it seems the chiefs current phylosophy is to just hire someone off the very used heap of clutter and be happy with it. This is one of the things I have against Vermeils staff. He really hasn't developed anyone since he has been here. And not just talking QB's.

Ralphy Boy
12-19-2004, 09:34 PM
The only comments I'll add is what Mitch H said in the pregame show about our style of CB's & the "shutdown corner's" not doing as well under the newly emphasized rules. Tampa and their Cover 2 scheme are the #1 pass defense this season.

I hadn't thought about it but he's right and we need to adjust our defensive style of play to compensate for it now, not waiting another couple of years to see what happens with the rule. McCleon is a very good zone CB, he and Warfield have very good ball skills, but McCleon has to have help over the top.

Ralphy Boy
12-19-2004, 09:35 PM
I should have added that Bartee has no ball skills (I almost didn't catch my typo and that would have read "has no balls kills") and if anything is going to be salvaged from his football career, it IMO can only be done at Safety.

Claynus
12-19-2004, 11:30 PM
Who is Hartwell?

He plays next to Ray Lewis in the Ravens 3-4. He's a big mofo with speed.

2bikemike
12-19-2004, 11:54 PM
I guess I just don't think drafting a corner is gonna help. I really think we need someone with experience.

We definately need a help at LB. And Maz is not it. We need speed.

philfree
12-20-2004, 12:08 AM
I guess I just don't think drafting a corner is gonna help. I really think we need someone with experience.

We definately need a help at LB. And Maz is not it. We need speed.


Sign a FA CB and draft a CB in the 1st round too! The rookie plays in $.05 and $.10 until he's ready to start. I'm pretty sure a rook can out play Bartee and prolly even pick one off. Fix the CBs now while Guns D demands it. That's my humble opinion anyways :)

PhilFree :arrow:

2bikemike
12-20-2004, 12:17 AM
Sign a FA CB and draft a CB in the 1st round too! The rookie plays in $.05 and $.10 until he's ready to start. I'm pretty sure a rook can out play Bartee and prolly even pick one off. Fix the CBs now while Guns D demands it. That's my humble opinion anyways :)

PhilFree :arrow:

I was kinda thinking picking up a FA and letting Sapp and Battle fight it out. Personally I think Battle is a lost cause. I would not mind letting Bartee and Battle go. McCleon is spotty and may be ok as a back up.

I think our next biggest problem is LB and would like another quality FA aquisition there.

This is a minimum that I think we should get in FA. However I will take a playmaker at any remaining positions. The rest can come from the draft.

Gaz
12-20-2004, 05:45 AM
As Champ Baily has illustrated [and his educational demonstrations have been beautiful to behold], the mythical “shutdown corner” does not exist. Man coverage is dead. Long live the cover 2 zone. Mr. Baily took considerable pains to show you folks this truth. Adjust your mock plans accordingly.

CB is not our #1 priority. As Shannon Sharpe so eloquently stated in one of his interviews, why pay these guys when they can’t DO anything?

No, we need MLB, DE, OLB & CB, in that order.

xoxo~
Gaz
Eagerly awaits Champ’s next demonstration of ineptitude.

MichaelH
12-20-2004, 05:49 AM
It's been discussed here before. The only way to play good defense under the current rules is to pressure the QB. I think a quick and nasty MLB and a DE is just what the Chiefs need.

the Talking Can
12-20-2004, 07:08 AM
yeah, I'm coming around to the "CB is hamstrung" position....with these rules the front 7 become the focus...I wanted a CB then a LB, but we'd be better served by a stud MLB or OLB than a stud CB....

we still have to upgrade our CB but our LB core will have more to do with us being successful next year....

Gaz
12-20-2004, 07:12 AM
...we still have to upgrade our CB but our LB core will have more to do with us being successful next year....

Yah, we still need to upgrade the CB position.

xoxo~
Gaz
Watching the slow, agonizing death of the “shutdown corner.”

ROYC75
12-20-2004, 07:25 AM
As Champ Baily has illustrated [and his educational demonstrations have been beautiful to behold], the mythical “shutdown corner” does not exist. Man coverage is dead. Long live the cover 2 zone. Mr. Baily took considerable pains to show you folks this truth. Adjust your mock plans accordingly.

CB is not our #1 priority. As Shannon Sharpe so eloquently stated in one of his interviews, why pay these guys when they can’t DO anything?

No, we need MLB, DE, OLB & CB, in that order.

xoxo~
Gaz
Eagerly awaits Champ’s next demonstration of ineptitude.



Hammered home Gaz.

With the new 5 yrd rule, the league wants offense. The man to man coverage will soon be a dinasour as a primary D. More and more teams are in zone coverage now.

We played alot of zone yesterday, we don't have the players to play man to man like Gun wants. It will take 2 - 3 years of building the D to get it.

Even Gun,CP and DV claimed they need to adjust the scheme to the players they have.

FWIW, after 17 games now, Mitchell had a decent game yesterday, still lacking the ability to wrap up a tackle on most plays.

I see us going FA CB, FA MLB and using the draft for young developing talent.

bsp4444
12-20-2004, 07:38 AM
I'm scared to death to say what the Chiefs actually have and what they don't have. They have been so reluctant to play Larry Johnson when he looks like a legitimate back in this league, they have a DE in Jared Allen that could pass Derrick Thomas's rookie sack record and they weren't even starting him until the end of the season. I think the organization has done a terrible job of recognizing the talent they already have. Thoughts?

MichaelH
12-20-2004, 07:43 AM
I'm scared to death to say what the Chiefs actually have and what they don't have. They have been so reluctant to play Larry Johnson when he looks like a legitimate back in this league, they have a DE in Jared Allen that could pass Derrick Thomas's rookie sack record and they weren't even starting him until the end of the season. I think the organization has done a terrible job of recognizing the talent they already have. Thoughts?

I agree 100%. They've not only done a terrible job of evaluating their present talent, but in the free agent and college markets as well. Most successful teams have their rookie and second year players starting much earlier in their careers. Some of the Chief's defensive starters couldn't make third string on some teams. I just don't get it.

Mark M
12-20-2004, 08:19 AM
While we definitely need a solid CB, LB has GOT TO BE THE #1 PRIORITY!!!! Fuj is the only one who plays with any consistency, and even then he's often out of position and misses tackles.

MLB should be the foundation of a 4-3, and KC does NOT have a true leader and playmaker at the position.

With that being said, there's not a whole lot of MLB's available in FA this year, and I'm not sure who will be there in the draft. So, I say go with the biggest stud defensive player out there in the draft, and that is Erasmus James. The guy is a freaking stud. Make whatever trade of picks is necessary to move up and get the guy.

I honestly think that if KC got three of these four they'd be all good:
1. New MLB
2. new LOLB
3. New CB
4. Bada$$ DE

Then, cut Bartee and McCleon, move Sapp to the nickel back and Battle to FS (where he belongs), and it'd be a big help.

Of course, I could be wrong ...

MM
~~:arrow: