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View Full Version : Looks like DV doesn't think McCleon is a problem...


brent102fire
01-04-2005, 07:21 PM
GRETZ: Nonetheless, you and your staff have a pretty good idea where the problems are, don’t you?

VERMEIL: “I’ll tell you this: it’s not as defined as you might think. We know we’re not as productive on defense as we ought to be. But at this time we’re not 100% convinced what is the most critical area and why it is the most critical area. For example, everybody’s after our right corner after yesterday’s loss. But he had three balls thrown on him and two of them were push-offs and the other he just got out-leaped for it.

“You could say you need a right corner. Maybe you do, or you need this or you need a heavy pass rusher or a better linebacker or you need a better safety or better coaching. All those things we will evaluate as we go but not this close to having lost the football game. Things will look better to us in terms of not being colored by emotion.”...

“But I don’t have any player that I don’t respect to the point that I want to get his butt out of here because he won’t work or doesn’t care or isn’t a good team guy. That’s one benefit or one positive that I have going through the defense, anyway.”...

VERMEIL: “I don’t start right off running somebody out of here if he’s a good character guy because all too often you do that and bring another guy in and although he might have a better playing reputation you get him here and he doesn’t fit. He won’t work, he sits on his helmet on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday and wants to play on Sunday. I’m too old to put up with that. I just won’t do it.”...



http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2005/01/04/dick_vermeil_show/

Looks like DV could care less whether the guy is a good athlete/football player. He's more concerned if he has good character and is a nice guy. I'm convinced DV has lost his mind! :shake: :banghead:
When is DV going to accept that fact that some of his players suck? There is no coaching Burntee, McCleon is a nickel back at best, Eric Hicks is a has been, and there are 2(maybe 3) serious holes to fill at LB. Those are the problems that need to be addressed whether he likes it or not! Sounds to me like DV would be ok with bringing back the same D next year since they are "good character guys." Unf*ckingbelievable!!!!!:shake: :mad: :cuss: :banghead:

Saulbadguy
01-04-2005, 07:22 PM
He blames 2 of them on fvcking push offs? Unbelievable...

Thig Lyfe
01-04-2005, 07:22 PM
It's official:

DV is on teh crack.

morphius
01-04-2005, 07:31 PM
He blames 2 of them on fvcking push offs? Unbelievable...
Did you not see those push off's, they were both very obvious.

Cochise
01-04-2005, 07:36 PM
I don't think McCleon needs to be run out of town. I just think we need one guy who is a true number 1 corner that we can slot at the top of the depth chart.

jjjayb
01-04-2005, 07:49 PM
What bothers me more about Mcleon's pass coverage on Sunday was his piss poor tackling. Or should I say non-tackling. He couldn't have tackled my 8 year old niece. It's one thing to let the guy you're covering catch the ball, it's another thing entirely to have an easy opportunity to tackle him and give it a half assed attempt letting him gain ten more yards after the catch. :cuss:

Deberg_1990
01-04-2005, 07:54 PM
It's official:

DV is on teh crack.

Its official, im now offcially convinced we WILL NOT win a Super Bowl as long as DV is our coach.

Bob Dole
01-04-2005, 07:55 PM
Did you not see those push off's, they were both very obvious.

They probably wouldn't have been if our CB weighed more than 140 pounds.

alanm
01-04-2005, 07:56 PM
DV needs to stay the f*ck away from the defensive assessment and give Gunther total control over who he wants to keep and get rid of.

TEX
01-04-2005, 07:57 PM
I don't think McCleon needs to be run out of town. I just think we need one guy who is a true number 1 corner that we can slot at the top of the depth chart.


Exactly. Move him to nickle. Then run Woods out of town and replace him with either Bartee/Battle/Harts. It's obvious that Bartee and Battle can't play CB. They both can hit so maybe Safety is better suited for them. I mean both played it in college... :hmmm:

TEX
01-04-2005, 07:58 PM
DV needs to stay the f*ck away from the defensive assessment and give Gunther total control over who he wants to keep and get rid of.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

mikey23545
01-04-2005, 08:21 PM
That display of "tackling" McCleon put on last Sunday had me as angry as anything I can recall in a Chiefs game lately. That ghey little cocksucker showed as little desire and heart as any defensive player I have ever seen. He didn't even try to make it look good.

That pretty well finished his midget ass with me. Let him go play grabass in somebody else's secondary.

Wallcrawler
01-04-2005, 08:21 PM
If there is one thing I cant stand about Dick Vermiel, its that right there.

He makes friends with his players, and then feels bad that he might have to cut them, so he just doesnt do it because he's a good guy.


That sucks.


Basicly, you dont have to have an ounce of football skill to play for Dick Vermiel, if youre not on the offense. He doesnt do defense, never has, never has known anything about defense, so he doesnt care. If youre a nice guy and like being embarrassed by the opposing offense on national television, come suit up and play for Dick Vermiel. As long as youre a nice guy, you'll keep your job.


Thats bullshit.

Bowser
01-04-2005, 08:28 PM
If there is one thing I cant stand about Dick Vermiel, its that right there.

He makes friends with his players, and then feels bad that he might have to cut them, so he just doesnt do it because he's a good guy.


That sucks.


Basicly, you dont have to have an ounce of football skill to play for Dick Vermiel, if youre not on the offense. He doesnt do defense, never has, never has known anything about defense, so he doesnt care. If youre a nice guy and like being embarrassed by the opposing offense on national television, come suit up and play for Dick Vermiel. As long as youre a nice guy, you'll keep your job.


Thats bullshit.

Nate Hobgood-Chittick says you're full of shit.

Deberg_1990
01-04-2005, 08:37 PM
If there is one thing I cant stand about Dick Vermiel, its that right there.

He makes friends with his players, and then feels bad that he might have to cut them, so he just doesnt do it because he's a good guy.


That sucks.


Basicly, you dont have to have an ounce of football skill to play for Dick Vermiel, if youre not on the offense. He doesnt do defense, never has, never has known anything about defense, so he doesnt care. If youre a nice guy and like being embarrassed by the opposing offense on national television, come suit up and play for Dick Vermiel. As long as youre a nice guy, you'll keep your job.


Thats bullshit.

Its a shame really, Nearly every decsion DV makes about offense is as good as gold. Nearly every decsion he makes about Defense has been wrong and misguided. Ive never seen a coach so one-sided in my life. Heck, even Marty Schottenhemier knew a little about offense.

the Talking Can
01-04-2005, 09:09 PM
VERMEIL: “I don’t start right off running somebody out of here if he’s a good character guy because all too often you do that and bring another guy in and although he might have a better playing reputation you get him here and he doesn’t fit.


effort over production....thus our defense has been the worst in the league for 3 years and will be so next year...

2bikemike
01-04-2005, 09:17 PM
WTF game was Vermiel at on Sunday? They threw at McCleon a lot more than 3 times.

The Bad Guy
01-04-2005, 09:17 PM
Honestly, how can we expect this team to have balls or attitude when their head coach makes excuses for their poor play?

He's like a Little League dad. It's never the fact that the player sucks, it's always something else as to why the player fails in sports.

I will do a damn dance when he retires after this year.

I'm sick of the schedule excuses, I'm sick of the excuses about refs.

I'm sick of having a horrible defense for 4 years and this guy has no idea how to fix it. Defense is simple. Find ****ing players that can cover and tackle.

But this team will never account for their mistakes when they have Papa Vermeil defending them around every corner.

The Bad Guy
01-04-2005, 09:19 PM
VERMEIL: “I don’t start right off running somebody out of here if he’s a good character guy because all too often you do that and bring another guy in and although he might have a better playing reputation you get him here and he doesn’t fit.


effort over production....thus our defense has been the worst in the league for 3 years and will be so next year...

Seriously, who wants to start a Please Vermeil Retire website?

I've had just about enough of his character bullshit.

You know why he doesn't fit Dick? Because he can tackle?

If I was a beat reporter in KC, I would hammer Vermeil every day about this bullshit. Whitlock is the only one with enough sack to shake the boat.

The Bad Guy
01-04-2005, 09:20 PM
I'm also convinced that Vermeil would rather go 8-8 with his character guys rather than go 14-2 with a couple guys who don't "fit".

Saulbadguy
01-04-2005, 09:20 PM
I'm also convinced that Vermeil would rather go 8-8 with his character guys rather than go 12-2 with a couple guys who don't "fit".
I'd be quite perplexed with 12-2...:)

Cochise
01-04-2005, 09:21 PM
I would like to see them give Gunther control over personnel. I still think if we added another corner >= Warfield and a stud MLB the defense would be 100% better.

Deberg_1990
01-04-2005, 09:22 PM
Honestly, how can we expect this team to have balls or attitude when their head coach makes excuses for their poor play?

He's like a Little League dad. It's never the fact that the player sucks, it's always something else.

I will do a damn dance when he retires after this year.

I'm sick of the schedule excuses, I'm sick of the excuses about refs.

I'm sick of having a horrible defense for 4 years and this guy has no idea how to fix it. Defense is simple. Find ****ing players that can cover and tackle.

But this team will never account for their mistakes when they have Papa Vermeil defending them around every corner.

Well said. Like I said earlier. Im convinced that this team WILL NOT win a Super Bowl as long as he remains the head coach

The Bad Guy
01-04-2005, 09:24 PM
I'd be quite perplexed with 12-2...:)

I'm hoped up on so much cold and cough medicine that I thought the NFL reverted back to a 14 game schedule.

KCJake
01-04-2005, 09:49 PM
Are you guys retarded??? What the hell do you think Dick is going to say???

DV
"That little piece of sh!t McCleon is responsible for 5 of our 9 loses this season."
Come on guys!!!! As long as McCleon is wearing a Chiefs uniform, Vermeil is going to stick up for him. Now, if McCleon is still the starting CB next season, then we have a problem. Then, you can blame Dick.

Deberg_1990
01-04-2005, 10:09 PM
Are you guys retarded??? What the hell do you think Dick is going to say???

DV
"That little piece of sh!t McCleon is responsible for 5 of our 9 loses this season."
Come on guys!!!! As long as McCleon is wearing a Chiefs uniform, Vermeil is going to stick up for him. Now, if McCleon is still the starting CB next season, then we have a problem. Then, you can blame Dick.

No, of course not. But i would like him to say something along the lines of " Well, our defense just didnt get the job done this year. We need to make several signifigant changes in our linebacking corp and defensive backs. Id also like to see more of a pass rushing push up the middle"

I think the fan base would respect him more of he was a little more honest.

Thig Lyfe
01-04-2005, 10:13 PM
Are you guys retarded??? What the hell do you think Dick is going to say???

DV
"That little piece of sh!t McCleon is responsible for 5 of our 9 loses this season."
Come on guys!!!! As long as McCleon is wearing a Chiefs uniform, Vermeil is going to stick up for him. Now, if McCleon is still the starting CB next season, then we have a problem. Then, you can blame Dick.

That's what's I would say... :shrug:

The Bad Guy
01-04-2005, 10:13 PM
Are you guys retarded??? What the hell do you think Dick is going to say???

DV
"That little piece of sh!t McCleon is responsible for 5 of our 9 loses this season."
Come on guys!!!! As long as McCleon is wearing a Chiefs uniform, Vermeil is going to stick up for him. Now, if McCleon is still the starting CB next season, then we have a problem. Then, you can blame Dick.

Go listen to 31 other press conferences and see if those HC's make as many excuses for their players as Vermeil.

KCJake
01-04-2005, 10:35 PM
That's what's I would say... :shrug:
That's why you are talking on the Chiefs Planet and not coaching pro football. Hey guys, no doubt McCleon stunk it up this year. That's why he probably won't be back next year. If he is back, it will be in nickel situations only. If Vermeil planned on cutting McCleon tomorrow, he wouldn't tell us. No coach in the NFL will ever call out a single player. They might say, "the defense just gave up too many big plays." Something that we've heard DV say a hundred times.

Thig Lyfe
01-04-2005, 10:37 PM
That's why you are talking on the Chiefs Planet and not coaching pro football. Hey guys, no doubt McCleon stunk it up this year. That's why he probably won't be back next year. If he is back, it will be in nickel situations only. If Vermeil planned on cutting McCleon tomorrow, he wouldn't tell us. No coach in the NFL will ever call out a single player. They might say, "the defense just gave up too many big plays." Something that we've heard DV say a hundred times.

I don't think admitting that a player sucks (perhaps in less harsh language) is a reason for not coaching in the NFL.

Vermeil needs to get some cojones and be real about this. He's having a love fest with every player, good or not, and that's not going to get this team anywhere.

TEX
01-04-2005, 10:50 PM
No, of course not. But i would like him to say something along the lines of " Well, our defense just didnt get the job done this year. We need to make several signifigant changes in our linebacking corp and defensive backs. Id also like to see more of a pass rushing push up the middle"

I think the fan base would respect him more of he was a little more honest.

Exactly! :thumb: And I'm one of those fans.

KCJake
01-04-2005, 10:54 PM
I disagree. But im to tired to reply. Talk to you guys later :thumb:

WebGem
01-04-2005, 11:03 PM
Dick Vermeil is a ****ing idiot if he thinks McCleon is not a problem. If he can't take the f*cking authority to let him go then I think it should be Peterson and Hunt's responsibility to run Vermeil's stupid ass out. I'm not one that has much against Peterson like most people around here, but this is the most bullshit thing I've ever seen. There is no possible way in f*cking hell that Vermeil does not honestly think McCleon is a problem. IMO that makes Vermeil the problem.

The Bad Guy
01-04-2005, 11:05 PM
That's why you are talking on the Chiefs Planet and not coaching pro football. Hey guys, no doubt McCleon stunk it up this year. That's why he probably won't be back next year. If he is back, it will be in nickel situations only. If Vermeil planned on cutting McCleon tomorrow, he wouldn't tell us. No coach in the NFL will ever call out a single player. They might say, "the defense just gave up too many big plays." Something that we've heard DV say a hundred times.

Yeah, it's something he's said 100 times and DONE NOTHING ABOUT FIXING THE PROBLEM.

All you guys point to PR spin, but Vermeil said last year that they were standing pat and all of you said it was coach speak.

And then look what happened.

WebGem
01-04-2005, 11:09 PM
If ****ing Dexter McCleon is playing CB next year I swear on my God damn life I'm going to go apeshit. There is NO reason he should be out there. What the f*ck is the point of waiting 8 months+ to see his stupid ****ing ass give up more and more touchdowns? The idiot doesn't know how to make a play at the ball, he just runs stride for stride with the reciever until its time to tackle or he loses the f*cking guy. It's nothing other than bullshit. If friendships mean more to Vermeil than winning does, it's bullshit to the fans and the rest of the team that actually wants to win. Also, who the f*ck "doesn't fit" in Kansas City? I don't see how someone can come in here and play good in the secondary and not fit. The fans will sure as hell love him, so that's sure not the problem. Maybe if Jared Allen see's the stupid ass comments by Vermeil he will go beat the shit out of McCleon for no reason other than making him not "fit in" with the teammate that is his entire defense unit.

Deberg_1990
01-04-2005, 11:15 PM
VERMEIL: “I’ll tell you this: it’s not as defined as you might think. We know we’re not as productive on defense as we ought to be. But at this time we’re not 100% convinced what is the most critical area and why it is the most critical area.


I used to think that this sort of stuff was DV PR spin. Now i realize DV really is lost when it comes to defense and its no surprise our D has sucked for 4 years!

2bikemike
01-04-2005, 11:16 PM
That's why you are talking on the Chiefs Planet and not coaching pro football. Hey guys, no doubt McCleon stunk it up this year. That's why he probably won't be back next year. If he is back, it will be in nickel situations only. If Vermeil planned on cutting McCleon tomorrow, he wouldn't tell us. No coach in the NFL will ever call out a single player. They might say, "the defense just gave up too many big plays." Something that we've heard DV say a hundred times.

DV sure doesn't have a problem calling out kickers. What is so different about their failures compared to a CB who's giving up big play after big play?

WebGem
01-04-2005, 11:16 PM
One more ****ing thing.

This should make you wonder how good of a ****ing coach Vermeil would be if he could just get over the friendship bullshit. First of all, Robinson would have been gone after 2002 at the latest. Then the rest of the guys he's never going to get rid of could have already been gone and we'd most likely have a defense right now, waiting to host a divisional game in a couple weeks. Think about it.

WebGem
01-04-2005, 11:19 PM
DV sure doesn't have a problem calling out kickers. What is so different about their failures compared to a CB who's giving up big play after big play?
Because he wants to score more points with the kickers and he wants a better punter so the other team can have worse field position and end up with more yards from scrimmage offensively.

Deberg_1990
01-04-2005, 11:20 PM
Because he wants to score more points with the kickers and he wants a better punter so the other team can have worse field position and end up with more yards from scrimmage offensively.

I do beleive your right!

|Zach|
01-04-2005, 11:22 PM
Because he wants to score more points with the kickers and he wants a better punter so the other team can have worse field position and end up with more yards from scrimmage offensively.
What an idiotic comment.

|Zach|
01-04-2005, 11:23 PM
I do beleive your right!
I do believe you are a dumbass if you believe this.

WebGem
01-04-2005, 11:24 PM
What an idiotic comment.
It wasn't serious. But, why don't you give me an answer to the question that I answered with that.

Chiefsrocker
01-04-2005, 11:25 PM
I think that DV couldnt care less about defensive personnel at all. I think he is gonna leave it all the same and "try to make it next year". Then he will leave, hopefully with Carl in tow, and let the next coach deal with the horrible defense. I think it is all personnel, not defensive coaches. you cant coach "no talent" players. I think that DV is gonna keep this defense in tact, and bow out a loser next year with my KC Chiefs, and that sux! :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :mad: :mad:

Rausch
01-04-2005, 11:25 PM
Yeah, it's something he's said 100 times and DONE NOTHING ABOUT FIXING THE PROBLEM.

All you guys point to PR spin, but Vermeil said last year that they were standing pat and all of you said it was coach speak.

And then look what happened.

Doesn't matter what DV thinks.

DV didn't want LJ, LJ is here. LJ played. LJ did good.

Empty seats hurt business. Records don't matter NEARLY as much as "excitement." When Montana and Marcus came here everyone KNEW we could win it all. There was excitement. There was excitement last year.

This year there was deep rooted cynicism by week 6. He's got to get rid of that. Peterson has to do SOMETHING to get us back on MNF and in championchip contention. A high profile 1st round draft pick won't do that alone. 1/2 the fanbase doesn't even follow the college game close enough to know anything about the guy we pick this year.

Not only that, but there's a reason we topped 11 wins damned near every odd year in the 90's...'Cause he spent $$$ in the even numbered off seasons. There's no reason to believe he won't do what he's always done and spend big this offseason....then win...then stand pat, and lose....then spend in the FA market...then win...then stand pat, and lose...etc...

Rain Man
01-04-2005, 11:25 PM
DV sure doesn't have a problem calling out kickers. What is so different about their failures compared to a CB who's giving up big play after big play?


Maybe he's less worried about a kicker going all Turley on him.

|Zach|
01-04-2005, 11:28 PM
It wasn't serious. But, why don't you give me an answer to the question that I answered with that.
Because a kicker is just that...a kicker...it is more of a baseball type position where you can plug and play. Whereas other positions deal more so with chemistry. Also at CB we didn't have anyone that could play better...Mclean had a shitty season but he didnt play to bad last year...got a lot of picks...a lot of people liked him around here in the role he was in. Seems like for as many worries as we had he was not really one of them. Dropping someone just for the sake of dropping them just not work IMO. We didn't have anyone better...

Rausch
01-04-2005, 11:29 PM
Maybe he's less worried about a kicker going all Turley on him.

Or because you don't invest that much money in a kicker.

You've paid good $$$ for a QB, or RB, or WR...

But you can fire and hire 20 kickers/punters a year and it won't matter much.

WebGem
01-04-2005, 11:30 PM
Doesn't matter what DV thinks.

DV didn't want LJ, LJ is here. LJ played. LJ did good.

Empty seats hurt business. Records don't matter NEARLY as much as "excitement." When Montana and Marcus came here everyone KNEW we could win it all. There was excitement. There was excitement last year.

This year there was deep rooted cynicism by week 6. He's got to get rid of that. Peterson has to do SOMETHING to get us back on MNF and in championchip contention. A high profile 1st round draft pick won't do that alone. 1/2 the fanbase doesn't even follow the college game close enough to know anything about the guy we pick this year.

Not only that, but there's a reason we topped 11 wins damned near every odd year in the 90's...'Cause he spent $$$ in the even numbered off seasons. There's no reason to believe he won't do what he's always done and spend big this offseason....then win...then stand pat, and lose....then spend in the FA market...then win...then stand pat, and lose...etc...
I hope you're right. I really do. I'd take a 13-3 one and done season over this stupid shit, it sucks in the end but it's not as bad as this past season was.

Deberg_1990
01-04-2005, 11:30 PM
Because a kicker is just that...a kicker...it is more of a baseball type position where you can plug and play. Whereas other positions deal more so with chemistry. Also at CB we didn't have anyone that could play better...Mclean had a shitty season but he didnt play to bad last year...got a lot of picks...a lot of people liked him around here in the role he was in. Seems like for as many worries as we had he was not really one of them. Dropping someone just for the sake of dropping them just not work IMO. We didn't have anyone better...

McCleon should not have been dropped based on his performance last year. But Gunther, Carl and DV should have known he wasnt a fit for Gunthers scheme and should have brought in another proven CB to push for his job.

|Zach|
01-04-2005, 11:31 PM
McCleon should not have been dropped based on his performance last year. But Gunther, Carl and DV should have known he wasnt a fit for Gunthers scheme and should have brought in another proven CB to push for his job.
I can accept that and agree with it...but I was responding to you agreeing with a totally outrageous statement that was meant in jest. Your agreement didnt seem to be in jest though.

KCJake
01-04-2005, 11:33 PM
DV sure doesn't have a problem calling out kickers. What is so different about their failures compared to a CB who's giving up big play after big play?
It's a lot easier to replace a kicker, then it is a CB. Well, for the Chiefs its not. For most teams it is. What was DV supposed to do? Bench McCleon and put in Battle?

WebGem
01-04-2005, 11:34 PM
Because a kicker is just that...a kicker...it is more of a baseball type position where you can plug and play. Whereas other positions deal more so with chemistry. Also at CB we didn't have anyone that could play better...Mclean had a shitty season but he didnt play to bad last year...got a lot of picks...a lot of people liked him around here in the role he was in. Seems like for as many worries as we had he was not really one of them. Dropping someone just for the sake of dropping them just not work IMO. We didn't have anyone better...
McCleon is fine in zone. It's when he's man to man he is f*cking horrible. He runs stride for stride with the reciever until he catches the ball, or else he loses the guy sometime during the play. He doesn't belong. I want the Chiefs to win games and that's the bottom line.

|Zach|
01-04-2005, 11:36 PM
McCleon is fine in zone. It's when he's man to man he is f*cking horrible. He runs stride for stride with the reciever until he catches the ball, or else he loses the guy sometime during the play. He doesn't belong. I want the Chiefs to win games and that's the bottom line.
I agree with all of this...I am jsut trying to find a few realistic views amongst the people that sit around and talk about how DV is an idiot and does not know anything about football.

As much as I would like to go into the Madden settings and turn all of these guy's skill bars up to 100 we can't.

WebGem
01-04-2005, 11:38 PM
I agree with all of this...I am jsut trying to find a few realistic views amongst the people that sit around and talk about how DV is an idiot and does not know anything about football.

As much as I would like to go into the Madden settings and turn all of these guy's skill bars up to 100 we can't.
I never said he knows nothing about football. The man can build an offense like no other. But, the loyalty to his friends on the team and the fact that he doesn't care enough for the defense is total BS. I don't know how you can disagree with that, or how it can't piss you off.

2bikemike
01-04-2005, 11:41 PM
It's a lot easier to replace a kicker, then it is a CB. Well, for the Chiefs its not. For most teams it is. What was DV supposed to do? Bench McCleon and put in Battle?

Oh I agree there was not much choice in sticking McCleon out there. But now the season is over and its time for Vermiel to take the Diapers off and demand some changes. No time to defend now. Admit there is a problem and correct it.

My point to you was the fact that DV won't call out a player in public unless he is a kicker or named Larry Johnson.

KCJake
01-04-2005, 11:54 PM
I never said he knows nothing about football. The man can build an offense like no other. But, the loyalty to his friends on the team and the fact that he doesn't care enough for the defense is total BS. I don't know how you can disagree with that, or how it can't piss you off.
All coaches have loyalty towards their players. These players go to battle for him. As soon as the coach/player loyalty ends, you have MAJOR PROBLEMS(Raiders) Is DV too loyal to his players? Maybe. We will find out this off-season. Trust me, DV cares about the defense. Maybe he's just not smart enough to do anything about it. He does what he can. Hire a quality defensive coordinator, try and bring in quality players, and try and draft defensive players. Dick doesn't have as much power as you guys might think. He doesn't own the Chiefs. He doesn't even run them. Maybe DV wanted to sign some defensive talent last off-season. Maybe Lamar wouldn't sign the check? Maybe Carl P didn't push him to do it? Both these guys are above DV. Believe me man, I wish we were in the playoffs as much as anyone. Look at our offense!!! Even without Priest, we can score with any team in the NFL. I think Carl will sign some defensive players this off season. Hopefully, they will make a difference.

KCJake
01-05-2005, 12:02 AM
Oh I agree there was not much choice in sticking McCleon out there. But now the season is over and its time for Vermiel to take the Diapers off and demand some changes. No time to defend now. Admit there is a problem and correct it.

My point to you was the fact that DV won't call out a player in public unless he is a kicker or named Larry Johnson.
I agree. McCleon probably should be cut or atleast demoted. But not until we draft/sign someone better. DV isn't going to rip McCleon until he knows he has somebody waiting to replace him. That's the exact reason why DV calls out kickers. He knows at anytime he can toss them to the curb. As for LJ, DV has always been a little bitter towards him. It's pretty clear that Dick didn't want to draft him in the first place. Dick didn't like LJ's attitude from the start. Maybe that's why he "called him out." Also, I really don't think DV realized how much of an impact the diaper statement would have.

Taco John
01-05-2005, 12:04 AM
What a fantastic interview.

Rausch
01-05-2005, 12:05 AM
What a fantastic interview.

I think the commentary on it is far more entertaining...

Chiefs Pantalones
01-05-2005, 12:18 AM
DV has been a problem since he got here. We have half a team.

Rausch
01-05-2005, 12:20 AM
DV has been a problem since he got here. We have half a team.

If you could, right now, would you trade him for Bill Parcells or the Walrus?

Taco John
01-05-2005, 12:22 AM
I think the commentary on it is far more entertaining...



Indeed... entertaining, but inconsequential... Reading Dick wax philisophical about problems that are otherwise pretty damned obvious to every Joe with basic cable is reassuring. It's going to be a difficult schedule next year and an even tougher division. The more Dick waxes on, the more comfortable I feel about the Chiefs place in the division.

Chiefs Pantalones
01-05-2005, 12:24 AM
If you could, right now, would you trade him for Bill Parcells or the Walrus?

For Bill Parcells, yes. For Holmgren, no.

You?

Rausch
01-05-2005, 12:26 AM
Indeed... entertaining, but inconsequential... Reading Dick wax philisophical about problems that are otherwise pretty damned obvious to every Joe with basic cable is reassuring. It's going to be a difficult schedule next year and an even tougher division. The more Dick waxes on, the more comfortable I feel about the Chiefs place in the division.

Again, here DV and Shanny are interchangable...

You look at the box scores for every Chiefs and Broncos game and both are a few plays away from a division win...other than the traded ass-handings, of course...

Rausch
01-05-2005, 12:30 AM
For Bill Parcells, yes. For Holmgren, no.

You?

Remind me what Parcells has done that DV hasn't...

I want a superbowl, and I don't care if Hitler or Mammy Theresa is our head coach as long as they bring us one.

Chiefs Pantalones
01-05-2005, 12:37 AM
Remind me what Parcells has done that DV hasn't...

I want a superbowl, and I don't care if Hitler or Mammy Theresa is our head coach as long as they bring us one.

Parcells has made it to more Super Bowls, IIRC, and won more. He knows how to build a D, but this is the only stop where DV hasn't had a good D, so...

Rausch
01-05-2005, 12:41 AM
Parcells has made it to more Super Bowls, IIRC, and won more.

Nope...

Won one with the G-men and lost one with the Pats...

He knows how to build a D, but this is the only stop where DV hasn't had a good D, so...

And Parcells is sucking as much poo on offense as DV is on defense right now.

Taco John
01-05-2005, 12:46 AM
Again, here DV and Shanny are interchangable...

You look at the box scores for every Chiefs and Broncos game and both are a few plays away from a division win...other than the traded ass-handings, of course...



I wouldn't want DV. I can't stand the huggy approach to football...

I'd take Walrus over DV every time.

Chiefs Pantalones
01-05-2005, 12:49 AM
Nope...

Won one with the G-men and lost one with the Pats...



And Parcells is sucking as much poo on offense as DV is on defense right now.

No, Parcells won XXI and XXV with the Giants. Against the Bills and against the Broncos, IIRC.

Chiefnj
01-05-2005, 12:55 AM
He won both Super Bowls with the Giants and lost with the Pats.

He also inherited a Jet team that had 4 wins in 2 years and in his first year they went 9-7 and then in his second year they made it to the AFC Championship game with a 12-4 record.

I'd take Parcells over Vermeil in a heartbeat.

Rausch
01-05-2005, 01:01 AM
No, Parcells won XXI and XXV with the Giants. Against the Bills and against the Broncos, IIRC.

I stand corrected.

While my facts were faulty I still believe my "grass is always greener" logic still applies.

Rausch
01-05-2005, 01:02 AM
I wouldn't want DV. I can't stand the huggy approach to football...

I'd take Walrus over DV every time.

He's done nothing to prove to me he isn't Mike Martz in more likeable clothing...

2bikemike
01-05-2005, 01:10 AM
I wouldn't want DV. I can't stand the huggy approach to football...

I'd take Walrus over DV every time.

Walrus + no Favre= no championships
Shanahan + no Elway = no championships

And before you try laying some smack

DV + no defense= no championships

whoman69
01-05-2005, 07:43 AM
Exactly. Move him to nickle. Then run Woods out of town and replace him with either Bartee/Battle/Harts. It's obvious that Bartee and Battle can't play CB. They both can hit so maybe Safety is better suited for them. I mean both played it in college... :hmmm:
He couldn't really play the nickle either. Sapp did a better job at nickle because Sapp can at least make tackles. Do any of you ever remember McCleon helping make a tackle on a running play?

KCTitus
01-05-2005, 08:46 AM
... Heck, even Marty Schottenhemier knew a little about offense.

You're kidding, right? I think Im going to start a Chiefsplanet Urban Legends Lexicon as well. This has to be the silliest thing Ive ever seen.

Dr. Facebook Fever
01-05-2005, 08:53 AM
VERMEIL: “I’ll tell you this: it’s not as defined as you might think. We know we’re not as productive on defense as we ought to be. But at this time we’re not 100% convinced what is the most critical area and why it is the most critical area.

Translation... "I don't know what the fvck I'm doing."


VERMEIL: “I don’t start right off running somebody out of here if he’s a good character guy because all too often you do that and bring another guy in and although he might have a better playing reputation you get him here and he doesn’t fit. He won’t work, he sits on his helmet on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday and wants to play on Sunday. I’m too old to put up with that. I just won’t do it.”...

Translation... "My ego is too out of control to put players on the field that will actually help us win."

Dick is the biggest problem we have on defense.

pos.

:shake:

Chiefnj
01-05-2005, 09:00 AM
You're kidding, right? I think Im going to start a Chiefsplanet Urban Legends Lexicon as well. This has to be the silliest thing Ive ever seen.


In 5 of Marty's 10 years the Chiefs offense finished in the top 10 in points scored. No doubt they folded in crunch time, but Marty had more success with the Chiefs O than Vermeil has had success with the D. But hey, feel free to add it to your lexicon for your amusement.

KCTitus
01-05-2005, 09:10 AM
In 5 of Marty's 10 years the Chiefs offense finished in the top 10 in points scored. No doubt they folded in crunch time, but Marty had more success with the Chiefs O than Vermeil has had success with the D. But hey, feel free to add it to your lexicon for your amusement.

Fun with stats...and in all that time, he got 2 playoff wins with Montana at the helm.

It's amusing to read, today, the historical revision of Marty's tenure here. The same guy that said the job of the offense was 'not to turn the ball over'--not score points.

penguinz
01-05-2005, 09:16 AM
WTF is this about good character guys? Didn't this guy draft and do everything he could to keep Lawrence Phillips inthe league?

KCTitus
01-05-2005, 09:17 AM
WTF is this about good character guys? Didn't this guy draft and do everything he could to keep Lawrence Phillips inthe league?

OMG! LOL, I cannot believe it...CP UL #2!

Chiefnj
01-05-2005, 09:19 AM
Fun with stats...and in all that time, he got 2 playoff wins with Montana at the helm.

It's amusing to read, today, the historical revision of Marty's tenure here. The same guy that said the job of the offense was 'not to turn the ball over'--not score points.


3 wins total.

A win over the Raiders in the playoffs is always welcomed. Remember the Chiefs making the playoffs on a regular basis?

shaneo69
01-05-2005, 09:27 AM
Fun with stats...and in all that time, he got 2 playoff wins with Montana at the helm.

It's amusing to read, today, the historical revision of Marty's tenure here. The same guy that said the job of the offense was 'not to turn the ball over'--not score points.

I think ChiefNJ said that Marty had more success with offense than DV has had with defense. I agree with that, based on the stats. If you just want to go by what statements they've made....well, Marty may have made the statement above that you attributed to him, but I've heard stupid-er statements from Vermiel after losing games 41-40 like, "Our turnovers in the redzone really killed us." No, Dick, you're offense isn't to blame when you lose 41-40, dumbazz.

That would akin to Marty saying after the Colts playoff loss in '95, "Boy, if our defense hadn't given up that one TD, we could've won the game.

bricks
01-05-2005, 09:32 AM
No, of course not. But i would like him to say something along the lines of " Well, our defense just didnt get the job done this year. We need to make several signifigant changes in our linebacking corp and defensive backs. Id also like to see more of a pass rushing push up the middle"

I think the fan base would respect him more of he was a little more honest.

Exactly. Well said :thumb: This is exactly where I lost respect for Vermeil. He can't admit that his defense isn't good enough, nor have the players. Instead it's excuses like, "profile", "high charactered guys, "oh it's the push offs", "oh I like what I see in our defense", "oh our defense is going in the right direction" that pisses me off. Why can't he just admit the fact, he doesn't know anything about defense? And that his players just aren't good enough? It's pretty sad that it took a Greg Robinson resignation for him to admit that he is NOT a defensive football coach. I wonder what will it take for him to admit his players on defense aren't good enough? :hmmm:

KCTitus
01-05-2005, 09:34 AM
3 wins total.

A win over the Raiders in the playoffs is always welcomed. Remember the Chiefs making the playoffs on a regular basis?

Right...I forgot about that one. Wasnt that the beginning of the end of Marinovich? I believe he and Vince Evans saved KC from dropping that 9-7 squeaker.

KCTitus
01-05-2005, 09:39 AM
I think ChiefNJ said that Marty had more success with offense than DV has had with defense. I agree with that, based on the stats. If you just want to go by what statements they've made....

The offenssive success during Marty's tenure was in spite of Marty not because of Marty.

We're drifting away from the original point that was made that Marty knew more about offense than DV knew about defense...hardly. If anything they were equal in their disinterest on that side of the ball.

nmt1
01-05-2005, 09:42 AM
Exactly. Well said :thumb: This is exactly where I lost respect for Vermeil. He can't admit that his defense isn't good enough, nor have the players. Instead it's excuses like, "profile", "high charactered guys, "oh it's the push offs", "oh I like what I see in our defense", "oh our defense is going in the right direction" that pisses me off. Why can't he just admit the fact, he doesn't know anything about defense? And that his players just aren't good enough? It's pretty sad that it took a Greg Robinson resignation for him to admit that he is NOT a defensive football coach. I wonder what will it take for him to admit his players on defense aren't good enough? :hmmm:

Do you actually expect Vermiel to publicly berate players and coaches? If so, you're going to be waiting a long time.
As far as Vermiel admitting he's not a defensive coach, he said from day one that he lets his coordinators run things, particularly the defensive coach because it's not his strong suit. What more do you want him to say?

shaneo69
01-05-2005, 09:48 AM
Do you actually expect Vermiel to publicly berate players and coaches? If so, you're going to be waiting a long time.
As far as Vermiel admitting he's not a defensive coach, he said from day one that he lets his coordinators run things, particularly the defensive coach because it's not his strong suit. What more do you want him to say?

He says that he lets the coordinator handle the defense, but he doesn't let him bring Chuck Cecil along with him to help implement his scheme, and then at the end of the year, he was quoted as saying that he told Guinta to switch from man-to-man to more zone schemes, because our poor defensive players were under too much pressure. Saying, and doing, are two separate things with Vermiel.

nmt1
01-05-2005, 09:55 AM
He says that he lets the coordinator handle the defense, but he doesn't let him bring Chuck Cecil along with him to help implement his scheme, and then at the end of the year, he was quoted as saying that he told Guinta to switch from man-to-man to more zone schemes, because our poor defensive players were under too much pressure. Saying, and doing, are two separate things with Vermiel.

I think I remember this conversation with Guinta. I believe Vermiel said he didn't talk to Gunther because Gunther wasn't on the sidelines. He spoke to Guinta because Guinta was on the sidelines. Gunther calls the defenses. How does Guinta trump that?
So our defensive woes are due to Chuck Cecil not being hired? I thought it was Vermiel's disinterest in the defense that was the problem. I'm getting confused I guess.

Chiefnj
01-05-2005, 09:56 AM
Do you actually expect Vermiel to publicly berate players and coaches?

Only punters and first round draft picks he didn't want.

nmt1
01-05-2005, 10:02 AM
Only punters and first round draft picks he didn't want.

Regarding the punters and kickers, I never heard Vermiel come out and berate them. I believe he said they weren't getting it done and were too inconsistant. You must have thin skin if you think that's berating someone.
Vermiel has said on several occasions that he made a mistake in calling Johnson out the way he did. I have no inside knowledge but I believe that it was said in jest and then blown out of proportion by the KC media(big surprise).
Vermiel has stated that he wanted a defensive player in Johnson's place but saying that he didn't want Johnson at all is conjecture.
That made me think of something. If Vermiel is so disinterested in the defense, why did he want to draft a defensive player instead of Johnson... :hmmm:

bricks
01-05-2005, 10:02 AM
Do you actually expect Vermiel to publicly berate players and coaches? If so, you're going to be waiting a long time.
As far as Vermiel admitting he's not a defensive coach, he said from day one that he lets his coordinators run things, particularly the defensive coach because it's not his strong suit. What more do you want him to say?

Nope. I don't expect him to berate his players and coaches. Mainly because of his personality. He's too loving, and loyal to make bad comments about his coaches and players. I wish he would berate his defensive players and a few of his coaches on D. I wish he could change his attitude. Whitlock was 100% right about that. I wish he was tough, had a bit of nuck sack instead of being "soft", and making stupid excuses all the time to defend and show his love, loyalty for his players. F*ck it. I'm tired of it. Time for a change. Parcells has the guts to call his team "stupid" when they f*ck up. Those are the type of coaches I admire.

2bikemike
01-05-2005, 10:03 AM
Only punters and first round draft picks he didn't want.

Snacks Willis wasn't a first rounder there were others as well I just can't remember who they were. He has had no problem berating players that he doesn't like.

nmt1
01-05-2005, 10:05 AM
Parcells has the guts to call his team "stupid" when they f*ck up. Those are the type of coaches I admire.

Vermiel's not that type of coach. You've got two choices...root for a coach with guts or grin and bear it for another year.

KCTitus
01-05-2005, 10:05 AM
Parcells has the guts to call his team "stupid" when they f*ck up. Those are the type of coaches I admire.

The cowboys are in as much, if not more, disarray as KC...that's probably a poor example.

nmt1
01-05-2005, 10:06 AM
Snacks Willis wasn't a first rounder there were others as well I just can't remember who they were. He has had no problem berating players that he doesn't like.

What did Vermiel say about Willis?

bricks
01-05-2005, 10:07 AM
The cowboys are in as much, if not more, disarray as KC...that's probably a poor example.

Why is it a poor example? I need your two cents on this. I'll give you my two as well. Tell me yours first.

bricks
01-05-2005, 10:09 AM
Vermiel's not that type of coach. You've got two choices...root for a coach with guts or grin and bear it for another year.

I'll go for the coach with guts. Cause I'm not optimistic we will win with Vermeil as the head coach.

nmt1
01-05-2005, 10:10 AM
I'll go for the coach with guts. Cause I'm not optimistic we will win with Vermeil as the head coach.

We ain't getting a "coach with guts" for at least a year so I guess you're stuck.

KCTitus
01-05-2005, 10:11 AM
Why is it a poor example? I need your two cents on this. I'll give you my two as well. Tell me yours first.

I dont follow Dallas as much as I do KC, so I dont have a whole lot more to input, but the whole QB thing appears to be a mess and the defense went flat this year and they play in the 2nd worst conference in the league and managed a 6-10 season.

bricks
01-05-2005, 10:11 AM
We ain't getting a "coach with guts" for at least a year so I guess you're stuck.

Yep. At least for one year :(

morphius
01-05-2005, 10:13 AM
I think many people missed the subtle comment from DV that they were going to start looking at the secondary first when evaluating the D...

nmt1
01-05-2005, 10:13 AM
Yep. At least for one year :(

And there's no guarentee beyond that.

nmt1
01-05-2005, 10:13 AM
I think many people missed the subtle comment from DV that they were going to start looking at the secondary first when evaluating the D...

You're making stuff up. Vermiel doesn't care about the defense.

2bikemike
01-05-2005, 10:15 AM
What did Vermiel say about Willis?

IIRC thats where Snacks came from. Mayby not a direct tag line by DV but maybe in a round about way.

I think all anybody wants from DV is to admit a guy is not getting it done and its time to move on. He is unwilling to do that with McCleon and several others. He defends their horrid play and tries to make excuses. He does not do that with kickers and he did not do that with several other players.

shaneo69
01-05-2005, 10:15 AM
I think I remember this conversation with Guinta. I believe Vermiel said he didn't talk to Gunther because Gunther wasn't on the sidelines. He spoke to Guinta because Guinta was on the sidelines. Gunther calls the defenses. How does Guinta trump that?
So our defensive woes are due to Chuck Cecil not being hired? I thought it was Vermiel's disinterest in the defense that was the problem. I'm getting confused I guess.

Actually, Titus was the one who said Vermiel was disinterested in the defense like Marty used to be disinterested in the offense.

Personally, I think Vermiel meddles too much. He talked Peterson into bringing back all the scrubs from last year because they were "good guys." He refused to fired idiot Guinta and replace him with Cecil, he "convinces" Gunther to use the "hugs instead of screams" coaching method, and then he admits (and actually acted like he was taking credit for) telling Guinta (who relays to Gunther) that we should switch to the G Rob zone schemes at the end of the year.

All this, after saying that he stays away from the defensive side and lets his coordinator handle it. Once again, I say that saying, and doing, are two separate things with DV.

nmt1
01-05-2005, 10:23 AM
Actually, Titus was the one who said Vermiel was disinterested in the defense like Marty used to be disinterested in the offense.

Personally, I think Vermiel meddles too much. He talked Peterson into bringing back all the scrubs from last year because they were "good guys." He refused to fired idiot Guinta and replace him with Cecil, he "convinces" Gunther to use the "hugs instead of screams" coaching method, and then he admits (and actually acted like he was taking credit for) telling Guinta (who relays to Gunther) that we should switch to the G Rob zone schemes at the end of the year.

All this, after saying that he stays away from the defensive side and lets his coordinator handle it. Once again, I say that saying, and doing, are two separate things with DV.

Well, which do you want? Someone who cares about the defense or someone who doesn't?
I don't think Vermiel had anything to do with Gunther's change. In fact there were several articles about Gunther that mentioned him changing his ways even before he was hired.
Our defense sucked and needs to be fixed. I don't care about who talks to whom or who said what to whom about whomever. I'm interested in seeing what they try to do to fix things. If it works, I'll be happy. If not, I'll be disappointed.

Chris Meck
01-05-2005, 10:27 AM
Vermeil is not going to come out and publicly say that "So and So" is lousy, and this guy just flat out sucks, and these two guys are just stupid, and we should've fired this coach, and....

that's just not how he works. These people are people; and they're going to be trying to get another job in a few months, and he'll give them all glowing recommendations to try and help them out. But to think that it means he's blind to the situation is just not realistic. This IS a man that's built TWO super bowl teams out of perennial cellar dwellers. He's not stupid. Loyal to a fault at times, perhaps-but that's a BIG part of his success. You have to take the good with the bad.

To say that you'd rather just have a coach with guts is a dumb statement. Vermeil's got guts galore; he'll stand in the face of a relentless media and fans and stick by his guns. That's guts. As far as his constant pumping up of Trent-well, in a year that went this badly, he's looking for positives. And Trent has been a damned fine quarterback over the last three years.

Before Robinson's last season, they changed nearly 50% of the starting defense in an attempt to get better. It didn't work, so they figured that it must've been Robinson that was the problem. Hell, I thought so too. Turns out that some guys just haven't developed, some guys are in decline, and some guys just can't get it done. So they'll make changes again this year in personnel, you can count on it. Guinta will be gone as well-you can bet that Gun is going to get whoever he wants to be on his staff, and it's going to be a defensive draft, and there will be some FA signings-although they will probably not be the big name guys everybody wants. We have too many holes to fill to spend all of the money on one or two guys.

Chris

nmt1
01-05-2005, 10:28 AM
IIRC thats where Snacks came from. Mayby not a direct tag line by DV but maybe in a round about way.

I think all anybody wants from DV is to admit a guy is not getting it done and its time to move on. He is unwilling to do that with McCleon and several others. He defends their horrid play and tries to make excuses. He does not do that with kickers and he did not do that with several other players.

The only thing I heard Vermiel say about his overweight players is that he doesn't like belly boys. IIRC, he was refering to several players at once including Sims and Willis. I don't know who nicknamed Willis "Snacks" and I don't really care.
This is speculation on my part but I think Vermiel thinks he can find servicable kickers mid-season but can't find better players for the defense mid-season. This could be wrong or right but I certainly don't agree that any schmo on the street is better than the players we have.

shaneo69
01-05-2005, 10:39 AM
For all the people who think it's no big deal that Vermiel doesn't rip his players publicly and instead, probably chides them behind closed doors...

Vermiel talks about the players like they're his kids. Okay, think about this. Imagine you're in church, or a restaurant, with your two or three kids. The children are misbehaving, generally making asses of themselves, and completely embarrassing you in public. What would you do to your kids to make them stop? I'm guessing that you'd either smack them upside the head and tell them to behave, or take them outside and give them a good yell or several spanks. In any event, you're letting your kids know that they will not make you look like an ass in public, and everyone else who is there can see that you're making an effort to control your kids.

Vermiel, on the other hand, is doing the equivalent of letting the kids behave like jackasses all through dinner or church and then waiting until they get home to ground them from TV, computer, phone, whatever.

bricks
01-05-2005, 11:10 AM
I dont follow Dallas as much as I do KC, so I dont have a whole lot more to input, but the whole QB thing appears to be a mess and the defense went flat this year and they play in the 2nd worst conference in the league and managed a 6-10 season.

Ok here's my input:

First off, I'm gonna compare resumes:

Dick Vermeil:

-109-99 career regular season record(14 seasons coaching)
-only 4th coach in NFL history to take 3 different teams to the post-season
-only one of 4 head coaches to lead 2 different teams to SB
-6-5 career post-season record
-1 SB championship
-2 SB appearances
-6 post-season appearances
-6 winning seasons
-3 divisional championships


Bill Parcells:

-165-123-1 career regular season record(16 seasons coaching)
-only head coach in NFL history to lead 4 different teams to post-season
-only one of 4 head coaches to lead 2 different teams to SB
-his teams have finished 1st or 2nd in the division 10 times
-11-7 career post-season record
-2 SB championships
-3 SB appearances
-9 post-season appearances
-11 winning seasons
-2nd winningest active coach in NFL

*So, there is my reasoning and understanding as to why Parcells is the better coach. The only disadvantage I can think of, is, Parcells has coached 2 more seasons than Vermeil. Despite that, his resume outweighs Vermeil by a mile!

KCTitus
01-05-2005, 11:14 AM
So, there is my reasoning and understanding as to why Parcells is the better coach. The only disadvantage I can think of, is, Parcells has coached 2 more seasons than Vermeil. Despite that, his resume outweighs Vermeil by a mile!

resume, schmesume...it matters not in this league. This is the 'what have you done for me lately' league...I dont care what they did as much as what they're doing and I dont see Parcells doing any better than Vermeil at this point.

bricks
01-05-2005, 11:23 AM
resume, schmesume...it matters not in this league. This is the 'what have you done for me lately' league...I dont care what they did as much as what they're doing and I dont see Parcells doing any better than Vermeil at this point.

:rolleyes: Your crazy. How could you say that Titus? Honestly. History plays an intergral role in one's successes. Whether it's a franchise, player, or head coach. You can't ignore history. :shake:

KCTitus
01-05-2005, 11:26 AM
:rolleyes: Your crazy. How could you say that Titus? Honestly. History plays an intergral role in one's successes. Whether it's a franchise, player, or head coach. You can't ignore history. :shake:

It does? Really? That's not what Ive read the last few years on this BB...

nmt1
01-05-2005, 11:28 AM
For all the people who think it's no big deal that Vermiel doesn't rip his players publicly and instead, probably chides them behind closed doors...

Vermiel talks about the players like they're his kids. Okay, think about this. Imagine you're in church, or a restaurant, with your two or three kids. The children are misbehaving, generally making asses of themselves, and completely embarrassing you in public. What would you do to your kids to make them stop? I'm guessing that you'd either smack them upside the head and tell them to behave, or take them outside and give them a good yell or several spanks. In any event, you're letting your kids know that they will not make you look like an ass in public, and everyone else who is there can see that you're making an effort to control your kids.

Vermiel, on the other hand, is doing the equivalent of letting the kids behave like jackasses all through dinner or church and then waiting until they get home to ground them from TV, computer, phone, whatever.

Your analogy is flawed. The defensive players are not performing their jobs. They are not children making fools of their parents.

Wallcrawler
01-05-2005, 03:18 PM
First of all, the Bill Parcells comparisons regarding this year, are not entirely fair.

Bill Parcells lost his starting quarterback that had led his team to the playoffs the previous season, after being a horrendous team the past several years.

Now, because of some sort of violation, most likely drugs, but noone has confirmed that, that I know of, Quincy Carter was cut and the Ancient Vinny Testaverde is thrown in there in a totally different offense and expected to run things.

Doesnt usually work out too well. Not to mention that Eddie George being arguably the biggest free agency bust of the year didnt help matters any.


Dick Vermiel, his team is losing because of his own ignorance. He CHOSE to stand pat on defense and re-sign the guys who were being embarrassed all season long, simply because they were good guys and enjoyed his wife's cooking.


I really dont see how anyone could say that Dick Vermiel hasnt slipped up at least a little. Sure, he hasnt ripped anyone publicly, and hasnt since he's been here. But when those defenders were getting owned the first 3 seasons he was here, and they didnt respond to his "Closed door berating" if in fact that ever happened, how were they rewarded for their lack of performance?

They were ALL given new contracts, and re-signed.

HELLO!?!?!?!? Not exactly the kind of outcome most of us were looking for from a coach who supposedly knows what he is doing. You cannot tell me that most of the players that were re-signed to this defense after their horrible performances over 3 seaons would have been re-signed had their contracts been up for another team. They would be out on their asses in the free agency market, begging for a job.


Dick knows one thing. OFFENSE. The rest, I really believe that he could not give a shit about. You can see it in his statements. Like it was mentioned before, losing 41-40, and faulting the OFFENSE for losing the game with a redzone turnover.

40 points is more than enough to win a game on offense. Thats a helluva offensive day. When a defense gives up 41 points, there is a problem, and therein lies the reason you lost the game, NOT because your excellent offense couldnt keep pace with the shitty offense that was absolutely shredding your sorry excuse for a defense.


I guess he just doesnt understand how much easier things would be if the offense didnt have to constantly put up 33 points a game just to have an outside shot at winning the football game, and praying that the defense didnt give up 5 TDs and cost you the game.


Personally, I think Dick has done all he can do. He re-vamped the offense, and did a helluva job doing it. But until he learns some defense, and the sheer importance of it, this team will do nothing but win a little over half of its games, due to the defense giving up points faster than the offense can put them on the board.


The 13-3 season, the Chiefs had the softest schedule in the entire league. Once they met a real contender in the playoffs in the Indianapolis Colts, they couldnt force a single punt. Not one. That is completely pathetic.

And after a performance so abysmal, in the biggest game of the year to that point, Dick chooses to stand pat on defense, thinking that they are going to be fine???

Tell me that was not a stupid f'ing call right there. Not the mark of a coach who knows what he is doing, Ill tell you that.

KCTitus
01-05-2005, 03:27 PM
First of all, the Bill Parcells comparisons regarding this year, are not entirely fair.

Bill Parcells lost his starting quarterback that had led his team to the playoffs the previous season, after being a horrendous team the past several years.

Doesnt usually work out too well. Not to mention that Eddie George being arguably the biggest free agency bust of the year didnt help matters any.

Parcells cut Carter--Carter was not under suspension by the league for failing the drug test that was rumored to have happened and Parcells made the decision to bring in both Vinny and George--and Vinny was a Parcells guy from his Jets days. The comparison's are totally fair.

Chiefnj
01-05-2005, 03:34 PM
Parcells has had two years, Vermeil 4 years. I expect more after the 4th year.

Wallcrawler
01-05-2005, 04:46 PM
Q: The question I was trying to ask was you said there were things you may have to change individually in how you approach things. Do you have to pay more attention to defense as a head coach than you might have in the past?

VERMEIL: “Listen, I pay a lot of attention to it. But I don’t go in and tell them how to coach it. I make suggestions and Gun is a good listener, one of the best coordinators I’ve ever worked with in terms of listening. I’ve just got to make sure I don’t give him poor advice.”





Excerpt from Vermiel's final press conference.

Funny how when he isnt a defensive minded coach, he still wants to give Gun suggestions on how to run the defense. :hmmm:





Q: Defensively you regressed in every category from a year ago and you fired your defensive coordinator and you didn’t make any personnel changes. Are you regretting that now?

VERMEIL: “I don’t regret and I don’t hold grudges. If you regret things you keep regurgitating problems and it just creates a bad frame of mind to work in. I am not the least bit sorry that I re-signed Eric Hicks. He was just elected captain of the football team. He had a good year. Played well. John Browning had a good year. Played well. They did a good job utilizing John Browning.

“We re-signed our two safeties. Both of them experienced injury problems through the year. Greg Wesley finished the season playing strong the last three games after starting out not playing well. But he missed both work and games. Our other safety (Jerome Woods) didn’t play.

“Bartee did not have a great year. He still experienced giving up the big play. No coach can ask a player to do any more than he does on the practice field. He works his butt off and practices really well and evaluates really well. But he gives up the big play from time to time. But we had that problem at the right corner the whole year because more pressure was put on our right corner than the left corner. They’re going to pick on the people that they think they have the best percentage of working on. So, it magnifies the problem of a guy growing at the position.

“You can abolish (these guys), cut ‘em and waive ‘em and say they’re lousy corners but two weeks ago (McCleon) intercepts two balls. But we still have problems on defense giving up big plays. We spent three and a half hours as a defensive staff this morning in a very intense, emotional meeting. I got my a-$% chewed out pretty good. I listened; I learned some things and it was good. We’ve got some problems to solve on defense and some of it is guys having to play better. Some coaches have to coach better.

“The common problem in all defenses is Dick Vermeil. Maybe I’ve got to do some things different. I don’t know what it is yet, but whatever it is I’m going to do it. I was here when Greg Robinson took all the crap. Now this year our defense gave up 103 more points and Greg Robinson’s gone. I am the common denominator, so I’ve got to look at what I’m doing, how I do things is a factor. We’re doing the same things if not better than we did them when we won the world championship with a defensive team that was the sixth rated one in the National Football League.

“One of the biggest problems I think we’re having as a defensive team is we’re not transferring our work ethic and execution and practice to game day. All of a sudden, some phase of it doesn’t go as well. True, it’s different tempo game day, it’s different people game day, but normally you get a better transfer percentage-wise and ratio-wise to how we practice to how we play. We’re not getting a transfer. We’ve got to resolve those problems. If we don’t we’re not going to be a good defense again.”

Q: You say the common denominator is you but the common denominator is your talent. You have the same guys you had last year.

VERMEIL: “We didn’t have anyone better.”

Q: So how can you say it’s just you? You re-signed seven of your free agents on defense and when are the players going to start to take responsibility?

VERMEIL: “Some of it is talent that didn’t play as well. Some of it was talent that got hurt. There’s other things that factor into that, too. Last year we played 10 or 11 losing teams. We played a more challenging schedule this year and we had some distorted offensive performances. But overall, we’re not good enough and have to solve the problems and I have to start looking at myself first and work on down through the ranks.

“Do I second-guess the signing of those players? No. I really don’t. I told the squad that yesterday. Did we not try to go out and evaluate the personnel available and talk to guys and bring some guys in? Yes we did. We even had guys call us on the phone and tell us they wanted to come here. We talked to them and they ended up going to other places. Money talks. You do what you have the wherewithal to do within the environment and who’s available. There aren’t always 11 all-pros out there available that are going to come in and change a defensive scheme over night.

“We know the areas of performance that are not good or consistent enough. We attack that problem that way. But it’s harder today to overhaul a total roster from a defensive or offensive standpoint. We did a hell of a job doing it offensively. I don’t think any team in the National Football League has done as good a job as we have of overhauling an offense with the personnel moves that we made. We tried to draft defensively and some of those choices didn’t work out.



And he still maintains that re-signing the guys they had was the best thing to do, no regrets.

The guy has lost it.

They had more than adequate opportunity to bring in defensive help that would have elevated this defense, they just chose the cheap way out and took the bargain basement deals.

Once again, proof that you really do get what you pay for.