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View Full Version : Results are in Gunther's _efense worse than Greg Robinson's _efense


Logical
01-06-2005, 06:54 PM
Guns defense has actually been worse then GRobs

Gun 435 points allowed
Grob 332 points allowed
Grob's 1st year 344 points allowed

Gun 377.3 yards per game allowed
Grob 356.7 yards per game allowed
Grob's 1st year 346.4 yards per game allowed

Gun Turnover forced 20
Grob Turnovers forced 37
Grob's 1st year Turnovers forced 26

In every meaningful category Grob's defense was better than Gunthers.

Edit someone wanted first years compared so I added that as you can see Grob's _efense was still clearly better than Guns even comparing first years.

CanadaKC
01-06-2005, 06:55 PM
Noooooooooooooooooo.... :Lin:

ROYC75
01-06-2005, 06:58 PM
Gun's 1st year with players in a new scheme, I don't put much into this, let's give Gun 3 years and see what Gun's 3rd year stats are compaired to GROB.

Deberg_1990
01-06-2005, 07:01 PM
Gun's 1st year with players in a new scheme, I don't put much into this, let's give Gun 3 years and see what Gun's 3rd year stats are compaired to GROB.

Exactly. In all honesty, GRobs' scheme is probably better suited to our crappy players. He played alot of zone coverage and they played so far off their man to help keep everything in front of them instead of Man to man to help protect our crappy corners. We did have a much better pass rush out of Gunther than Grob could ever dream of. No surprise there.

tk13
01-06-2005, 07:02 PM
The turnovers is the big thing. I think it's pretty amazing that despite that massive gap in turnovers we're still only 20 yards/game worse than last year... maybe that should be about right, I don't know, seems like that gap should be bigger.

Logical
01-06-2005, 07:02 PM
Gun's 1st year with players in a new scheme, I don't put much into this, let's give Gun 3 years and see what Gun's 3rd year stats are compaired to GROB.

NO, No, Nooo, there were a lot, and I do mean a lot of people on this BB who were saying Gun could fix the problems. Then when Carl did nothing in the offseason they were saying Gun could still fix the problems with the players we have.

Well folks the facts are in and those were both lies. Gun actually made our _efense worse not better.

ChiefsFanatik88
01-06-2005, 07:04 PM
Guns defense has actually been worse then GRobs

Gun 435 points allowed
Grob 332 points allowed

Gun 377.3 yards per game allowed
Grob 356.7 yards per game allowed

Gun Turnover forced 20
Grob Turnovers forced 37

In every meaningful category Grob's defense was better than Gunthers.

You did not do your research properly. Kc allowed 500 less rushing yards than GRob

Logical
01-06-2005, 07:04 PM
Exactly. In all honesty, GRobs' scheme is probably better suited to our crappy players. He played alot of zone coverage and they played so far off their man to help keep everything in front of them instead of Man to man to help protect our crappy corners. We did have a much better pass rush out of Gunther than Grob could ever dream of. No surprise there.

Is no one paying attention to the fact that Grob's defense allowed over 100 points less, 103 to be exact. Face it Gun failed.

OldTownChief
01-06-2005, 07:05 PM
Doesn't mean a damn thing.

Logical
01-06-2005, 07:06 PM
You did not do your research properly. Kc allowed 500 less rushing yards than GRob Who cares when he allowed 860 more passing yards.

Deberg_1990
01-06-2005, 07:06 PM
Is no one paying attention to the fact that Grob's defense allowed over 100 points less, 103 to be exact. Face it Gun failed.

Thats because of turnovers. Ill admit, GRob scheme created more turnovers, at least for now.

brent102fire
01-06-2005, 07:07 PM
Well, if it's not the coaches than it must be the schedule. It can't possibly be the fault of the defensive players. ;)

Chan93lx50
01-06-2005, 07:08 PM
NO, No, Nooo, there were a lot, and I do mean a lot of people on this BB who were saying Gun could fix the problems. Then when Carl did nothing in the offseason they were saying Gun could still fix the problems with the players we have.

Well folks the facts are in and those were both lies. Gun actually made our _efense worse not better.


Yeah and I think I was one of them!

Sucks to be wrong

Logical
01-06-2005, 07:08 PM
Doesn't mean a damn thing. Sure it does it means we were a worse team with Gun than we were with GRob 7-9 is a byproduct.

tk13
01-06-2005, 07:09 PM
In every meaningful category Grob's defense was better than Gunthers.

Pretty much, except for "punts forced against the Indianapolis Colts", which is probably the most important statistic of the last two seasons.

Logical
01-06-2005, 07:09 PM
Well, if it's not the coaches than it must be the schedule. It can't possibly be the fault of the defensive players. ;)ROFL Ah the DV school of coaching.

Logical
01-06-2005, 07:09 PM
Pretty much, except for "punts forced against the Indianapolis Colts", which is probably the most important statistic of the last two seasons.ROFL

Deberg_1990
01-06-2005, 07:11 PM
Whats ironic is that everyone around here is clamoring for a GRob coached product. DJ Johnson of Texas.

Logical
01-06-2005, 07:13 PM
Whats ironic is that everyone around here is clamoring for a GRob coached product. DJ Johnson of Texas. Good point

ChiefsFanatik88
01-06-2005, 07:13 PM
In every meaningful category Grob's defense was better than Gunthers

Who cares when he allowed 860 more passing yards.

I was just letting you know that rushing yards allowed is a meaningful category. And Gunther did better in that regard than Grob.

BIG_DADDY
01-06-2005, 07:21 PM
I'll take Gun over Robinson any day. I love a D that is more aggressive, we just need more talent. Screw read and react.

ROYC75
01-06-2005, 07:24 PM
NO, No, Nooo, there were a lot, and I do mean a lot of people on this BB who were saying Gun could fix the problems. Then when Carl did nothing in the offseason they were saying Gun could still fix the problems with the players we have.

Well folks the facts are in and those were both lies. Gun actually made our _efense worse not better.

I thought it would be a bit better, but held true to the facts it would take time to weed the scheme and players out to produce a Gunther type defense we need. 2 yrs min , 3 years max.

Deberg_1990
01-06-2005, 07:24 PM
I'll take Gun over Robinson any day. I love a D that is more aggressive, we just need more talent. Screw read and react.


Exactly, lets five Gun some more time to get his kind of players in here before we jump to any conclusions. Just another **** up by Carl IMO. He should have known that the talent on defense wasnt good enough. Hes seen the same things we all have for the past 3 years prior.

Logical
01-06-2005, 07:40 PM
Exactly, lets five Gun some more time to get his kind of players in here before we jump to any conclusions. Just another **** up by Carl IMO. He should have known that the talent on defense wasnt good enough. Hes seen the same things we all have for the past 3 years prior.

Well lets see we got two whole players different under Gun last year and we managed to get much worse. So at that rate in 5 years we should be able to get an entire defense on the field of Guns player and maybe get better instead of worse. I mean after all that is all he accomplished last year was 2 players.

Deberg_1990
01-06-2005, 07:50 PM
I mean after all that is all he accomplished last year was 2 players.

Thats 2 whole players that improved under Gun rather than GRob. Name one player that ever improved playing under GRob??

tk13
01-06-2005, 07:59 PM
Thats 2 whole players that improved under Gun rather than GRob. Name one player that ever improved playing under GRob??
Hater! Ryan Sims got his only career interception under GRob! :)

unlurking
01-06-2005, 08:04 PM
Hey Vlad, since you seem to be happy dissin' Gun and using stats to "back it up", can you do me one favor?

Combine ANY three years (I'll even let you include last years) of Gun's defenses with the Chiefs. Compare those stats to the three year reign of GROB. Although to be truly fair to Gun, you should take 3 consecutive of his years, but you can include this year anyway.

After you have done this and reported back, I will consider your post as an informational product worthy of discussion/debate. Until then, I'll try and realize you are not Taco John, even though your thread is more typical of post trolling to incite people.

Logical
01-06-2005, 08:06 PM
Thats 2 whole players that improved under Gun rather than GRob. Name one player that ever improved playing under GRob??

Actually I would say Fujuita improved under Robinson and got worse under Gun. I would also say that Maslowski got better under Robinson until he got injured. Woods could be a third that got better under Robinson but the injury year in the middle kind of skews that one.

jAZ
01-06-2005, 08:11 PM
Isn't this like that like saying that Jesus failed at staying alive MORE than Ghandi did because he died first?

There is no difference between dead and dead.

Inspector
01-06-2005, 08:12 PM
Yikes!

Kinda scary.

I figured it was due to them using a different fabric softener on their uniforms. But maybe it really is the players.......something to think about.

Logical
01-06-2005, 08:14 PM
Yikes!

Kinda scary.

I figured it was due to them using a different fabric softener on their uniforms. But maybe it really is the players.......something to think about.

Hint: My point is that it is the players and that heresy of heresy, Grob may have actually adapted better to the shitty players than Gun is able to do.

Frazod
01-06-2005, 08:18 PM
2003 - Pussy schedule

2004 - Brutal schedule

Plus, remember when the bottom fell out - when Maz got hurt. Imagine how bad it could have been in '03 if that injury had occurred in week one.

I don't buy into this Knobinson-was-better bullshit for a second.

Dartgod
01-06-2005, 08:32 PM
NO, No, Nooo, there were a lot, and I do mean a lot of people on this BB who were saying Gun could fix the problems. Then when Carl did nothing in the offseason they were saying Gun could still fix the problems with the players we have.

Well folks the facts are in and those were both lies. Gun actually made our _efense worse not better.
http://www2.incredimail.com/contents/letters/expressions/told_you_so_prev.gif

LiL stumppy
01-06-2005, 08:36 PM
I still would rather have Gun.

Wile_E_Coyote
01-06-2005, 08:44 PM
LJ

Dartgod
01-06-2005, 08:46 PM
Hint: My point is that it is the players and that heresy of heresy, Grob may have actually adapted better to the shitty players than Gun is able to do.
So GRob gets three years to "adapt" but Gun only one to prove he's a failure? :shake:

Straight, No Chaser
01-06-2005, 08:52 PM
2003 - Pussy schedule

2004 - Brutal schedule

Plus, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH DeBLAH

Simply amazing or is it mystifying (the lack of memory around here). It wasn't a year ago Gunther was hailed as the savior.

One major complaint from arm-chair posters was that Greg Robinson’s defenses were “too complicated”. When Gun was hired I seem to remember he was hailed as the new sheriff in town.

Remember folks, Gunther did say he could get it turned around. His "guys" like Jerome Woods, Greg Wesley, Eric Hicks, Eric Warfield, William Bartee, and John Browning … all players who Gunther had a hand in developing were here.

I do remember one quote:
“We’ve got talent here, some of these guys have to play better. I think we’ll get them to do that.”

What happened?


--->

unlurking
01-06-2005, 08:53 PM
So GRob gets three years to "adapt" but Gun only one to prove he's a failure? :shake:
Of course!

But DV gets to use past SB experience on his resume too!

;)

unlurking
01-06-2005, 08:56 PM
Simply amazing or is it mystifying (the lack of memory around here). It wasn't a year ago Gunther was hailed as the savior.

One major complaint from arm-chair posters was that Greg Robinson’s defenses were “too complicated”. When Gun was hired I seem to remember he was hailed as the new sheriff in town.

Remember folks, Gunther did say he could get it turned around. His "guys" like Jerome Woods, Greg Wesley, Eric Hicks, Eric Warfield, William Bartee, and John Browning … all players who Gunther had a hand in developing were here.

I do remember one quote:

What happened?


--->
Hmmm,

I think I remember you giving me shit about saying Dante Hall was not a starting WR too.

"What happened?"

FringeNC
01-06-2005, 09:27 PM
Although I think the D improved a little over last year (tougher schedule), given what Philips did in SD and Williams did in Washington, it's obvious that Gunther is no D guru.

The forced TOs numbers are a little shocking.

Chiefnj
01-06-2005, 09:29 PM
Hint: My point is that it is the players and that heresy of heresy, Grob may have actually adapted better to the shitty players than Gun is able to do.

I think you are correct. After 3 years of having no talent Robinson was able to design a defense, as bad as it was, that would slowly bleed to death while occassionally creating some turnovers. Gunther thought the talent level was better, designed a more aggressive defense that got more sacks but gave up more big plays and didn't create turnovers.

They both sucked. Past experience tells us however that Gunther can field a good defense. Whether he's given the tools to do it, is another question.

go bowe
01-06-2005, 09:32 PM
Hater! Ryan Sims got his only career interception under GRob! :)ha! that's more than bartee has ever had... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

alanm
01-06-2005, 09:42 PM
In all fairness, You should probably compare Grob's 1st year to Guns 1st year.

Straight, No Chaser
01-06-2005, 09:43 PM
Although I think the D improved a little over last year (tougher schedule), given what Philips did in SD and Williams did in Washington, it's obvious that Gunther is no D guru.

The forced TOs numbers are a little shocking.

I'm not sure Gunther even deserves mention this year. I would note a few others ahead of him in line:
Romeo Crennel / Patriots
Jim Johnson / Eagles
Dick LeBeau / Steelers
Monte Kiffin / Buccaneers

Gunther claimed he could get these guys turned around and HE DID NOT. I think most will cut him some slack because of his legacy from '95 - '98. However, I doubt Gunther will reach the defensive production he got from those years. It helps when you have some talent, like he did in Derrick Thomas, Neil Smith, Dale Carter, James Hasty, and Dan Saleamua, etc.

---->

FringeNC
01-06-2005, 09:47 PM
In all fairness, You should probably compare Grob's 1st year to Guns 1st year.

GROB's 1st year was his best

alanm
01-06-2005, 09:49 PM
I'm not sure Gunther even deserves mention this year. I would note a few others ahead of him in line:
Romeo Crennel / Patriots
Jim Johnson / Eagles
Dick LeBeau / Steelers
Monte Kiffin / Buccaneers

Gunther claimed he could get these guys turned around and HE DID NOT. I think most will cut him some slack because of his legacy from '95 - '98. However, I doubt Gunther will reach the defensive production he got from those years. It helps when you have some talent, like he did in Derrick Thomas, Neil Smith, Dale Carter, James Hasty, and Dan Saleamua, etc.

---->We don't even have anyone presently with the talent of Joe Philips.
:(

Den9899
01-06-2005, 09:50 PM
People are presented with the facts and all the responses I read are people plugging their ears and saying "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA CAN'T SEE THAT".

This is hilarious.

Logical
01-06-2005, 10:12 PM
So GRob gets three years to "adapt" but Gun only one to prove he's a failure? :shake:

As you can see Grob was better in his first year in KC than Gun was as well. I added the 2001 stats for you.

go bowe
01-06-2005, 10:14 PM
Guns defense has actually been worse then GRobs

Gun 435 points allowed
Grob 332 points allowed
Grob's 1st year 344 points allowed

Gun 377.3 yards per game allowed
Grob 356.7 yards per game allowed
Grob's 1st year 346.4 yards per game allowed

Gun Turnover forced 20
Grob Turnovers forced 37
Grob's 1st year Turnovers forced 26

In every meaningful category Grob's defense was better than Gunthers.

Edit someone wanted first years compared so I added that as you can see Grob's _efense was still clearly better than Guns even comparing first years.thanks for the info...

facts are facts... :( :huh: :eek:

memyselfI
01-06-2005, 10:16 PM
But was GR's potty mouth better????

Rausch
01-06-2005, 10:22 PM
I'll take Gun over Robinson any day. I love a D that is more aggressive, we just need more talent. Screw read and react.

You might also want to throw in starters who missed more than 4 games under each coache's stats...

Perhaps look at sacks, or tacles for loss, or...oh, nevermind.

stevieray
01-06-2005, 10:25 PM
thanks for the info...

facts are facts... :( :huh: :eek:


It also shows they played better their second year in Grob's system. And it shows they are three years older than their first season with Grob.

Mile High Mania
01-06-2005, 10:38 PM
Didn't you guys read the other thread... it's not the players or the scheme. Hell, it's not GRob or Gunther.

It's the schedule and that's the bottom line, cuz DV said so.

Rausch
01-06-2005, 10:40 PM
Didn't you guys read the other thread... it's not the players or the scheme. Hell, it's not GRob or Gunther.

It's the schedule and that's the bottom line, cuz DV said so.

You need to see the big picture.

It's DV's job to pump players up, make them feel good, and stroke their ego's...

It's Peterson's job to decide who we should keep and who should go die in Siberia mining ore...

Wallcrawler
01-06-2005, 11:48 PM
Id still much rather have an attack style defense that actually tries to get some disruption going against the offense, that one that is taught to play 10 yards off the line and avoid contact whenever possible.


In Greg Robinson's schemes, guys would play 5 yards off the receivers, ON THE F'ING GOAL LINE!!

Hello?!?

Anyone else see a problem with that?

Grobs schemes were pretty much turn and run away when the ball is snapped, let the offense do their thing, and then at the very last minute, try to do something about it.

Gunther's scheme tries to destroy the play as soon as it begins.

All Gun really needs in his defense to have success is ONE good shutdown corner, and a good pass rusher.

Our corners quite frankly, suck. We have a decent prospect for a pass rusher in Jared Allen, and if Eric Hicks would get the lead out, he could return to his 14 sack season form. If we had one good, kickass corner, I think Eric Warfield is good enough to cover a team's number 2 guy. Mcleon would move to nickel, where there isnt as much pressure.


Greg Robinson ran shit that didnt make any sense. Safeties running to the opposite sides of the field at the snap of the ball, sending his corners to the line, just announcing to everyone that there is a corner blitz coming....I mean come on. He says he likes to create confusion for the opposing offense, but all he did was confuse his own players. Theres a reason safeties cover their own side of the field, and not run 50 yards at the snap of the ball to try to get to the other side of the field in time.

Because it doesnt work.

I will say though that it was neither coordinator's fault that the KC defenders just suck at tackling. You can only show a guy how to do something so many times. Eventually, he either gets it, or he never will.

The KC defenders seem to think that its illegal to use their arms to tackle opposing ball carriers. They like to slam into them, bounce off, and stare at them wondering why they didnt go down. And the most recent case, the final game of the season against San Diego, their second string running back was getting 5-10 yards after first contact. When a scrub is dragging your starting defenders down the field, its time for some new talent.


I have the utmost faith in Gunther Cunningham. I think he went too easy on the defense this year, choosing a more friendly approach. I think once we get the guy back that puts sailors to shame on the sidelines, youll see better reactions from the players. These guys have been cottled for 4 seasons by Dick Vermiel, been taken by the hand, and had a shoulder to cry on with Dick telling them that its OK, that it was the OFFENSE'S fault that they lost the game because they could have scored more points and didnt.

Bullshit.

Its time the defense grew a set of balls, and took it upon themselves to start winning some football games.

Gunther brings the attitude, he just didnt apply it like he did in his last run here. If Gun gets his choice of who to release and who to bring in, I think that there will be a much improved unit taking the field next season.

Greg Robinson has been consistently bad wherever he was. Look at his years with Denver. The only reason they won those championships was because of John Elway, and circumventing the salary cap. His numbers on defense there were horrendous as well.

G-Rob has never had years like Gunther had from 95-98. And lets not forget who Robinson had in denver either. He had several pro bowlers on that defense, and still gave up tons of yardage and points.

Fairplay
01-06-2005, 11:54 PM
Exactly. In all honesty, GRobs' scheme is probably better suited to our crappy players. He played alot of zone coverage and they played so far off their man to help keep everything in front of them instead of Man to man to help protect our crappy corners. We did have a much better pass rush out of Gunther than Grob could ever dream of. No surprise there.




I don't care what coach is in charge of the d, or what scheme. There is not enough talent on the chiefs defense to bring them any better then a 28th ranked defensive team IMO.

Fairplay
01-06-2005, 11:57 PM
Hello?!?






Hello.

Fairplay
01-07-2005, 12:09 AM
I have the utmost faith in Gunther Cunningham. I think he went too easy on the defense this year, choosing a more friendly approach. I think once we get the guy back that puts sailors to shame on the sidelines, youll see better reactions from the players. These guys have been cottled for 4 seasons by Dick Vermiel, been taken by the hand, and had a shoulder to cry on with Dick telling them that its OK, that it was the OFFENSE'S fault that they lost the game because they could have scored more points and didnt.






Good points being made Stinger, rep.

Logical
01-07-2005, 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by The Stinger

I have the utmost faith in Gunther Cunningham.....

I have almost NO RESPECT for Gunther because he let Carl f*ck him as a HC and making Gun keep Marty's assistants. Then when he holds all the cards for the DC position he lets Carl F*CK him again by not letting Gun name his own defensive coaching staff. Finally he lets Carl double F*ck him by not letting Gun get rid of all the shitty players and resigns all the craptastic shitholes from the previous years like Bartee and Hicks. Gun is a spineless tool who as a defensive coordinator let Carl shove it up his poop shoot consistently.

Fairplay
01-07-2005, 12:32 AM
I have almost NO RESPECT for Gunther because he let Carl f*ck him as a HC and making Gun keep Marty's assistants. Then when he holds all the cards for the DC position he lets Carl F*CK him again by not letting Gun name his own defensive coaching staff. Finally he lets Carl double F*ck him by not letting Gun get rid of all the shitty players and resigns all the craptastic shitholes from the previous years like Bartee and Hicks. Gun is a spineless tool who as a defensive coordinator let Carl shove it up his poop shoot consistently.




I know what you are saying Vlad. But its all politics. Anyone coach who is under Carls thumb knows before they get hired that they are in the understanding they hes the real one in charge.
I have no doubt about that.

carlos3652
01-07-2005, 01:26 AM
OK, you guys have lost your mind...

Everyone wanted GROB's head after 3 years of _efense, you gave this guy 3 years... But you only give Gun 1????

Carl gave Gun 0 talent to work with...

What has Grob done at Texas... oh yea allowed over 215 points in 12 games... 18pts per game vs the crappiest Big 12 teams (other than OU)
AND he had incredible talent on the D... THe best Linebacker in college and other players that werent too shabby...

Whatever... in three years he will kill the texas D... becasue as his record shows, his first year is his best...

Gun will get the job done...

Fairplay
01-07-2005, 01:38 AM
OK, you guys have lost your mind...








Won't be the first time someone told me that.

JohnnyV13
01-07-2005, 03:28 AM
I hate to admit it, since I thought Gunther could improve the D, but Vlad is right, Gunther didn't get it done.

I would add, however, that offense was up league-wide this year and the chiefs played a much tougher schedule, so those things account for some of the discrepency in sats. But, even so, Gun did not put a respectable D on the field.

I was surprised that Gun went with so many blitzes when teams were still in their own side of the 50, given our terrible D performance. I would not have used a GRob approach, but I would have used more cautious approach until the opposing team hit our 35. (Not bringing those all out blitzes).

I will say, in my own defense, that I DID want to see them bring in D talent. I thought sitting on a chance to improve a weak side of the ball a very negligent approach.

jollymon
01-07-2005, 03:34 AM
How about we give him a year to get a little new talent in there, then let's hand the grades out to ol' goooooonther.

Mile High Mania
01-07-2005, 06:02 AM
I really didn't think it was a bad idea to compare their production with essentially the same players.

The knock on GRob was that his scheme was too complex, so Gun changed that.... but, the results were still horribly bad. Last year, many of you vehemently said "it's not the players, it's the system". Now, you're saying "give Gun better players and see what happens".

That's all GRob ever wanted.

KCTitus
01-07-2005, 06:17 AM
...Last year, many of you vehemently said "it's not the players, it's the system". Now, you're saying "give Gun better players and see what happens".

LOL...funny how that works, aint it?

Mile High Mania
01-07-2005, 06:20 AM
LOL...funny how that works, aint it?

That's rule number 9 of team fandom.... we all do it.

Chief Faithful
01-07-2005, 06:21 AM
Although I think the D improved a little over last year (tougher schedule), given what Philips did in SD and Williams did in Washington, it's obvious that Gunther is no D guru.


Do you really need to be reminded of the talent difference?

Vlad,

The stats you chose to build your case on do not begin to communicate what was seen on the field this year. I think the defense is improved and moving in the right direction, which is something I could not say after last season. Here are some things to consider:

Tougher Schedule
First Year New Scheme
Improved as Year Progressed
Much Improved Against the Run
Did A Good Job Against Denver (in KC) and Indy

I like Gun's scheme and style. What I appreciated the most was watching a defense that could force punts and create 3-and-out once in a while. CP just needs to get him some playmakers.

KCTitus
01-07-2005, 06:22 AM
That's rule number 9 of team fandom.... we all do it.

Speak for yourself...I believe it was lack of talent last year, too. Of course, that position netted me the predictable screams of kool aid drinker/homer/CP lover, etc.

Mile High Mania
01-07-2005, 06:25 AM
Speak for yourself...I believe it was lack of talent last year, too. Of course, that position netted me the predictable screams of kool aid drinker/homer/CP lover, etc.

I know you hold strong, but there are times you fall to the homer inside you...

KCTitus
01-07-2005, 06:26 AM
I know you hold strong, but there are times you fall to the homer inside you...

Of course, Im a fan of the team...it's only natural.

Chief Faithful
01-07-2005, 06:36 AM
There is another big consideration I have not seen mentioned, the change in the rules in favor of the receivers. I would like to see the stats at the league level to see on average how many more yards and points teams gave up in general in the passing game this year.

Notice, the Chiefs defense is higher ranked after this season than last. In comparison to the league the defense did not get worse.

Mile High Mania
01-07-2005, 06:38 AM
There is another big consideration I have not seen mentioned, the change in the rules in favor of the receivers. I would like to see the stats at the league level to see on average how many more yards and points teams gave up in general in the passing game this year.

Notice, the Chiefs defense is higher ranked after this season than last. In comparison to the league the defense did not get worse.

That is another excellent point... the NFL set records this season with the # of 100 yard rushers, receivers and 300 yard passers.

Chief Faithful
01-07-2005, 06:38 AM
I really didn't think it was a bad idea to compare their production with essentially the same players.

The knock on GRob was that his scheme was too complex, so Gun changed that.... but, the results were still horribly bad. Last year, many of you vehemently said "it's not the players, it's the system". Now, you're saying "give Gun better players and see what happens".

That's all GRob ever wanted.

Did Denver's pass defense look statiscally better this year? Much improved talent and same scheme. Is is possible the rule changes and tougher schedule had an impact?

Coach
01-07-2005, 07:04 AM
GRob, 0-1 aganist the Colts, 0 punts
Gunther, 1-0 aganist the Colts, 4 punts.

:p

Logical
01-07-2005, 08:20 AM
There is another big consideration I have not seen mentioned, the change in the rules in favor of the receivers. I would like to see the stats at the league level to see on average how many more yards and points teams gave up in general in the passing game this year.

Notice, the Chiefs defense is higher ranked after this season than last. In comparison to the league the defense did not get worse.

Wrong the Chiefs were ranked 31st this year vs 29th last year.

htismaqe
01-07-2005, 08:44 AM
Speak for yourself...I believe it was lack of talent last year, too. Of course, that position netted me the predictable screams of kool aid drinker/homer/CP lover, etc.

Amen.

I said 3 years ago that Greg Robinson won 2 Super Bowls with Denver because he had BETTER TALENT, and was met with a chorus of boos.

Count Zarth
01-07-2005, 08:45 AM
GRob, 0-1 aganist the Colts, 0 punts
Gunther, 1-0 aganist the Colts, 4 punts.

:p

For that alone (and beating the piss out of Denver) I am thankful to Gunther.

the Talking Can
01-07-2005, 08:56 AM
I remember the threads about how Gun could turn these turds into the old KC defenses..we didn't need Hasty or Carter or DT or Saleamua etc....the facts speak for themselves, Gunther's was worse than GR's and many of the players were actually WORSE under Gunther....doesn't mean he won't be successful, eventually, but you can't pretend it isn't true...hell, Gunther even had Dalton and Allen..

BIG_DADDY
01-07-2005, 09:29 AM
Well lets see we got two whole players different under Gun last year and we managed to get much worse. So at that rate in 5 years we should be able to get an entire defense on the field of Guns player and maybe get better instead of worse. I mean after all that is all he accomplished last year was 2 players.

Dude, the schedule was MUCH harder. MOF it was about as far apart as I have seen two schedules. The O's we had to deal with were much, much more difficult. We certainly have more than one year to judge Gunther by as a defensive coordinator in KC as well. I like gun as our D coordinator, we just need to get him some more talent in there. Many of the players had to adjust to a new defensive scheme as well which takes time. When listing your facts that were relevant I noticed you missed all of these. Frankly I am a little surprised to see you have such a hard on for ol Gun.