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tk13
01-13-2005, 01:12 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascitystar/sports/10630920.htm

Gretz expects Thomas' Hall of Fame debate to be spirited

JEFFREY FLANAGAN


The chances of Derrick Thomas making it into the Pro Football Hall of Fame next month on the first try?

About as good as Michael Irvin's, according to KCFX's Bob Gretz, who not only has Kansas City's only vote in the matter but also will be in charge of presenting Thomas' case before the 38 other voters on the Saturday (Feb. 5) before the Super Bowl.

“There are two guys that will be virtually locks — Steve Young and Dan Marino,” Gretz said. “Then there's Derrick and Michael Irvin, guys you can certainly make a case for but guys who certainly aren't locks.”

If you're not familiar with the Pro Football Hall of Fame voting process, it's a far cry from baseball's version, in which guys like me vote once each year on candidates, votes are tabulated and inductees are announced. Simple.

For football, the 39 voters — one for each franchise, plus one from the Pro Football Writers Association and six at-large voters — vote the list down from 75 nominees to 25. Then the voters vote again to reduce the list to 15, which is where we stand now.

Then on the Saturday before the Super Bowl, one voter representing each of the 15 finalists makes a presentation on behalf of his candidate. Another vote then whittles the list to 11. Yet another vote reduces the list to six.

Finally, after all of that, there's a simple “yea” or “nay” on each candidate.

“Probably the most interesting part of the process is the presentation part,” Gretz said. “The discussions can get pretty heated.

“Some of the candidates don't even require a presentation, really. I can't imagine the guy from Miami having to say much about Marino. There wasn't much of a discussion about Joe Montana, either. I remember when it came time for the presentation on Barry Sanders — the guy from Detroit just stood up and said, ‘Barry Sanders is eligible,' and sat back down. What more did you need to say?”

As for Thomas, Gretz said, he expects some interesting discussion.

“Look at a guy like Richard Dent, who is on the list with Derrick,” Gretz said. “Richard Dent has more career sacks than Derrick and has been to two Super Bowls. If you put Derrick in, how can you keep Richard Dent out?”

bringbackmarty
01-13-2005, 02:11 AM
yea but dent didn't die young, and didn't have seven in one game.

melbar
01-13-2005, 02:26 AM
It looks like he will be giving DT a ringing endorsment :rolleyes:

tk13
01-13-2005, 02:30 AM
yea but dent didn't die young, and didn't have seven in one game.
Dent only had about 10 more sacks total, and he played in 4 more seasons and something like 40 more games..... come on Gretz, you probably read the board, the minds of the Planet could come up with all kinds of things to help get DT in... :)

Fairplay
01-13-2005, 02:31 AM
You don't want to know my opinion.

chiefsfolife
01-13-2005, 02:49 AM
if he dont get in im rioting ;)

whoman69
01-13-2005, 06:45 AM
The case for DT is much stronger than Irvin. Both were great players, but Irvin was multiple times cited for drugs during his career and was the poster boy for all the Cowboy drug users of the 90s. DTs flaw was he fathered too many children out of wedlock. But he was heavily into charities and won the Walter Peyton award. He was highly admired in the community. You can't even start to make that statement about Irvin.

cdcox
01-13-2005, 06:50 AM
whoman69: I think the Football HOF explicitly forbids voters to consider off-the-field factors in making their votes.

TEX
01-13-2005, 07:14 AM
So, not going to a Super Bowl counts against LB's?

Wow, Glen Cadrez won 2 of them...

cdcox
01-13-2005, 07:34 AM
I decided to look at Irvin. The last four HOF WR to end their playing career are Charlie Joiner (1986), John Stallworth (1987), Steve Largent (1989) and James Lofton (1993). I found it pretty surprising that their weren't more WR inducted from this time period. We should also consider Art Monk who is the only other WR up for consideration. Here are the career stats:

Joiner 750 12,146 16.2 65 0SB 3PB
Stallworth 537 8723 16.2 63 3SB 3PB
Largent 819 13089 16.0 100 0SB 7PB
Lofton 764 14004 18.3 75 0SB 8PB
Monk 940 12,721 13.5 68 2SB 3PB
Irwin 750 11,904 15.9 65 3SB 5PB

I think Monk and Irwin both certainly have the credentials to fit in with this group, but neither is a lock. Stallworth sticks out like a sore thumb had they not run out of Steelers to send to the HOF, it is doubtful he would have made it. Swann is an even bigger stretch, but I won't go there.

Beyond statistics you have to consider if they were dominant at their position. Irvin was consistently considered the 2nd or 3rd best reciever in the game with Rice and Carter. It is almost unfair to compare him against Rice though, since he is the biggest statistical outlier ever to play the game. Here is where things have worked against Monk. Even though he has the numbers and the SB rings, he was never really dominant. That shows up in his yards per reception, the lowest in the group, and the relatively low numbers of Pro-Bowls. He was more of a possession receiver, but one of the best ever. I think he should make it at some point. It will be increasingly difficult for him to make it though, as WR in his comparison group will start having better and better numbers (Carter, Rice, Brown, etc). I think you have to vote either Monk or Irvin in the first time they make it to the final 6. I would say the same for DT based on the fact that he was a 9-time PB if nothing else.

PastorMikH
01-13-2005, 07:36 AM
Gretz is the one arguing for DT? Great, another obstacle for DT to overcome now.:sulk:



Say, Steve Young, if you are reading this, do me a favor and stand up and mention to them how you still wake up at night in a cold sweat from seeing DT coming at you again.

cdcox
01-13-2005, 07:40 AM
Gretz should just show game film. It speaks for itself.

Coach
01-13-2005, 08:37 AM
Gretz should just show game film. It speaks for itself.

Ah yes, especially where he called "The Safety" shot, and he got it the next play.

royr17
01-13-2005, 11:35 AM
I think he has a very good chance to make the top 5 in the cutdown to 5 on Feb. 5th.

Garcia Bronco
01-13-2005, 11:37 AM
Dent should already be in the hall.....the guy was a defensive Super Bowl MVP. I also think that Irvin three Super Bowl rings out shines anything DT did on the Field, but DT should get in next year.

Garcia Bronco
01-13-2005, 11:39 AM
Monk should already be in as well...when he retired I believe he had the receiving record.

Tuckdaddy
01-13-2005, 11:41 AM
SB's should not matter that much. It's team effort that gets to the bowl. The Hall is more about individual achievement. That's why the Marinio discussion will be short.

Garcia Bronco
01-13-2005, 11:41 AM
The case for DT is much stronger than Irvin. Both were great players, but Irvin was multiple times cited for drugs during his career and was the poster boy for all the Cowboy drug users of the 90s. DTs flaw was he fathered too many children out of wedlock. But he was heavily into charities and won the Walter Peyton award. He was highly admired in the community. You can't even start to make that statement about Irvin.

there is no morality clause for the Football HOF....unfortunately...Lawerence Taylor...I'm looking at you.

royr17
01-13-2005, 11:44 AM
Actually Garcia are you just saying that because you dont wanna see a chief player get into the hall ?????

Mile High Mania
01-13-2005, 11:45 AM
The case for DT is much stronger than Irvin. Both were great players, but Irvin was multiple times cited for drugs during his career and was the poster boy for all the Cowboy drug users of the 90s. DTs flaw was he fathered too many children out of wedlock. But he was heavily into charities and won the Walter Peyton award. He was highly admired in the community. You can't even start to make that statement about Irvin.

Jumping in late ... but, both neither guy was a saint.

I think a player should be inducted for what he did on the field... don't focus on the off the field. Then, you're debating which moral or character flaw wasn't as bad as the other.

Just stick to the body of work.

Taco John
01-13-2005, 11:45 AM
You can't put DT in before Dent, IMO.

Mile High Mania
01-13-2005, 11:46 AM
I can't believe that Monk is still just sitting out there... it's a shame.

Mile High Mania
01-13-2005, 11:47 AM
I think the "first time ballot" guys are few and far between. I don't know that Irvin or DT are what I would call first time ballot guys. There are a lot of guys waiting to get in with just a good a case of either of them.

Hell, I'm not sold on Young being a first ballot guy.

Taco John
01-13-2005, 11:48 AM
Plus, I think people are overlooking some of the old timers on the list. The HOF selection committee is always good about getting at least two of the older guys in...

Mile High Mania
01-13-2005, 11:50 AM
I'm sure Aikman will be a first time ballot guy and I think that's a joke.

Taco John
01-13-2005, 11:51 AM
Hell, I'm not sold on Young being a first ballot guy.



I am. Young's story was amazing. Here's a Tampa Bay cast off who managed to follow in Joe's footsteps, and lead that team to be one of the greatest franchises in the league...

It's hard to follow a legend, let alone create one yourself in the wake of one.

cdcox
01-13-2005, 11:51 AM
roy17: There are already 7 Chiefs in vs. 1 Donk. And the gap does not look to narrow anytime soon with Thomas, Shields and Gonzo getting ready to que up for KC while the Broncos will get Sharpe in and maybe Atwatter and ...?

Some on the 'mange are pimping Floyd Little for the HOF. I'd say Floyd the barber has a better chance.

Mile High Mania
01-13-2005, 11:53 AM
I am. Young's story was amazing. Here's a Tampa Bay cast off who managed to follow in Joe's footsteps, and lead that team to be one of the greatest franchises in the league...

It's hard to follow a legend, let alone create one yourself in the wake of one.

Eh, he had a really nice career... I'm just not sold on him as a 1st ballot HOF'er. He had 4 great years and a bunch of so-so. Sure, he has a ring.

Garcia Bronco
01-13-2005, 11:54 AM
Actually Garcia are you just saying that because you dont wanna see a chief player get into the hall ?????

No...I don't carry myself that way...I've always with few exceptions shot this board straight. DT should probably be in first ballot....but he's only diminished by the other guys available. It's just the way it worked out. The question you should ask is....do I take pleasure in it? Don't care one way or the other...I think the HOF is a joke anyway. What matters to me is who the individual team honors. Screw sports writers....they don't know anything about the game or players that I don't.

Garcia Bronco
01-13-2005, 11:57 AM
roy17: There are already 7 Chiefs in vs. 1 Donk. And the gap does not look to narrow anytime soon with Thomas, Shields and Gonzo getting ready to que up for KC while the Broncos will get Sharpe in and maybe Atwatter and ...?

Some on the 'mange are pimping Floyd Little for the HOF. I'd say Floyd the barber has a better chance.
I just don't think Atwater gets in to the HOF, but I do think TD should get in....he dominated the game

beer bacon
01-13-2005, 11:58 AM
Dent should already be in the hall.....the guy was a defensive Super Bowl MVP. I also think that Irvin three Super Bowl rings out shines anything DT did on the Field, but DT should get in next year.

I think everyone that was on the Cowboy's dream team should get in. I mean they won so many Super Bowls and everything.

Garcia Bronco
01-13-2005, 12:02 PM
I think everyone that was on the Cowboy's Dream team should get in. I mean they won so many Super Bowls and everything.

I think they should get a few from those teams...the dominated everybody they played...and at the time...The NFC East ws no joke...easily the toughest divsion in football. During the NFC's 13-0 run in the SB...the NFC east won 7 of them.

2 Giants
3 Cowboys
2 Redskins

Redskins also won the Super Bowl the year before the Raiders did.

cdcox
01-13-2005, 12:03 PM
I just don't think Atwater gets in to the HOF, but I do think TD should get in....he dominated the game

No doubt that he dominated for 3 years, but his career numbers just don't stack up against other modern era inductees. Even if KC wins a SB, I don't think Holmes will make it either unless he has a couple more extremely productive seasons. I also think that the success of other Denver backs in "the system" is going to cause some voters pause. That could be enough to keep a borderline candidate like TD out.

Mile High Mania
01-13-2005, 12:08 PM
No doubt that he dominated for 3 years, but his career numbers just don't stack up against other modern era inductees. Even if KC wins a SB, I don't think Holmes will make it either unless he has a couple more extremely productive seasons. I also think that the success of other Denver backs in "the system" is going to cause some voters pause. That could be enough to keep a borderline candidate like TD out.

I'm interested in hearing the media debates when TD is in the running...

The guy had a great career in a small amount of time and his post season dominance can't be discounted. And after such a short time he's in the top 50 all time in rushes, yds, TDs.

Will be fun when the debate starts.

Garcia Bronco
01-13-2005, 12:10 PM
No doubt that he dominated for 3 years, but his career numbers just don't stack up against other modern era inductees. Even if KC wins a SB, I don't think Holmes will make it either unless he has a couple more extremely productive seasons. I also think that the success of other Denver backs in "the system" is going to cause some voters pause. That could be enough to keep a borderline candidate like TD out.

It is going to give voters pause...but we haven't had anyone close to that number ever. When you also consider we had TD on the bench in many 4th quarters during his 2000 yard season...I think he would have beat the current record by 150-200 yards or so. But hey...what is...is. The Broncos honor him...that's what is really important to me. Same with Atwater. The only thing that gives me hope for him in the HOF is Gale Sayers....which is an argument that may...or may not work.

Mile High Mania
01-13-2005, 12:21 PM
One thing about the HOF ... it already has some guys in (or not) that make you say "it's a joke".

Starting in the early 90s as offenses started to be more empowered by the rules changes, we're going to see a TON of players that were able to play 10 or 11 years and just rack up stats and accolades.

Some may or may not be HOF worthy, but 5 years after they retire, we'll go back to stats and compare them to those previously in and say "Damn, there's no question".

I mean, look at some of the RBs and WRs playing today that have been in the league for 7-8 years... they're really putting up numbers.

Players are better physically now, so if you can hang around long enough, you can build your HOF resume and may not really be thought of as "the premier player at your spot in your era".

That is when the HOF will become a certified joke.

cdcox
01-13-2005, 12:21 PM
Interestingly, Davis and E. James have both played exactly 81 games in their careers and have remarkabley similar career statistics. I wouldn't even dream of considering James if he hung them up now.

Davis,Terrell 81 1655 7607 60
James,Edgerrin 81 1828 7720 51

Garcia Bronco
01-13-2005, 12:24 PM
Interestingly, Davis and E. James have both played exactly 81 games in their careers and have remarkabley similar career statistics. I wouldn't even dream of considering James if he hung them up now.

Davis,Terrell 81 1655 7607 60
James,Edgerrin 81 1828 7720 51

You could really throw out the last three years of Davis's stats...he didn't really play after game 4 1999.

cdcox
01-13-2005, 12:34 PM
You could really throw out the last three years of Davis's stats...he didn't really play after game 4 1999.


That is true. Davis' ypc is also signficantly better than James. I think both ways of looking at it (short term dominance vs good but not great career stats) are valid and different people will make different judgements based on which perspective they weight more. It will be interesting.

shaneo69
01-13-2005, 06:42 PM
I'm interested in hearing the media debates when TD is in the running...

The guy had a great career in a small amount of time and his post season dominance can't be discounted. And after such a short time he's in the top 50 all time in rushes, yds, TDs.

Will be fun when the debate starts.

If Terrell Davis gets in, then Priest deserves to be in. I don't think either one deserves it for four all-pro years. My god, Mike Anderson put up 1,500 yards behind that line. Only difference was, Elway was gone by then.

shaneo69
01-13-2005, 06:50 PM
Dent should already be in the hall.....the guy was a defensive Super Bowl MVP. I also think that Irvin three Super Bowl rings out shines anything DT did on the Field, but DT should get in next year.

You're putting waaaaayyyy too much stock in Super Bowl wins. Dent was like the 4th best player on Chicago's defense behind Singletary, Hampton, and Wilbur Marshall. He was Super Bowl MVP? Big deal, so was Larry Brown and Dexter Jackson.

Michael Irvin was in 5 Pro Bowls compared to DT's 9. Shouldn't even be close. Who was more dominant at his position?

Rain Man
01-13-2005, 06:57 PM
One thing about the HOF ... it already has some guys in (or not) that make you say "it's a joke".

Starting in the early 90s as offenses started to be more empowered by the rules changes, we're going to see a TON of players that were able to play 10 or 11 years and just rack up stats and accolades.

Some may or may not be HOF worthy, but 5 years after they retire, we'll go back to stats and compare them to those previously in and say "Damn, there's no question".

I mean, look at some of the RBs and WRs playing today that have been in the league for 7-8 years... they're really putting up numbers.

Players are better physically now, so if you can hang around long enough, you can build your HOF resume and may not really be thought of as "the premier player at your spot in your era".

That is when the HOF will become a certified joke.


I never thought about this, but I bet the money is another issue. The money is so insane now that players will extend their careers as long as is humanly possible, whereas 40 years ago they probably just quit when their bodies told them to. Combine that with the better medical technology today for things like knee injuries, and you've got a lot of long careers.

A guy like Don Hutson would've been like Jerry Rice in today's world, I bet.

shaneo69
01-13-2005, 07:09 PM
I mean, look at some of the RBs and WRs playing today that have been in the league for 7-8 years... they're really putting up numbers.

Players are better physically now, so if you can hang around long enough, you can build your HOF resume and may not really be thought of as "the premier player at your spot in your era".

That is when the HOF will become a certified joke.


That's why you almost have to ignore those guys' stats compared to the older players' and take a closer look at how many Pro Bowls they played in, and whether they really dominated.

Mile High Mania
01-14-2005, 05:27 AM
That's why you almost have to ignore those guys' stats compared to the older players' and take a closer look at how many Pro Bowls they played in, and whether they really dominated.

Eh, Pro Bowls are a bit of a joke...

Didn't Hines Ward make the pro bowl this year? That's a joke.

I thought Harrison getting it over Wayne was laughable.

Bailey? He had a good year, but getting burned by 3 players in 3 games (2 in prime time) should have kept him out.

Lots of guys get in on name... Ward sure as hell didn't dominate this year. Wards was 14th in the AFC with 1,004 yards and 4 TDs.

Ashley Lelie kicked his ass.

Cannibal
01-14-2005, 06:51 AM
Eh, Pro Bowls are a bit of a joke...

Didn't Hines Ward make the pro bowl this year? That's a joke.

I thought Harrison getting it over Wayne was laughable.

Bailey? He had a good year, but getting burned by 3 players in 3 games (2 in prime time) should have kept him out.

Lots of guys get in on name... Ward sure as hell didn't dominate this year. Wards was 14th in the AFC with 1,004 yards and 4 TDs.

Ashley Lelie kicked his ass.

Ward is also the best blocking receiver in the league. His numbers were a little down, but some of that was conservative play calling due to having a rookie start at QB. He still made a huge impact in the running game. I'd take Ward over many receivers in the league.

Mile High Mania
01-14-2005, 06:58 AM
Ward is also the best blocking receiver in the league. His numbers were a little down, but some of that was conservative play calling due to having a rookie start at QB. He still made a huge impact in the running game. I'd take Ward over many receivers in the league.

Sure, he's a great WR... but, not an AFC Pro Bowl Selection in 2004. Doesn't matter that they play call was conservative or having a rookie starter (that was undefeated).

Rank Player Team Rec Yds Avg TDs Long
1 Chad Johnson CIN 95 1274 13.4 9 53
2 Tony Gonzalez KC 102 1258 12.3 7 32
3 Drew Bennett TEN 80 1247 15.6 11 48
4 Reggie Wayne IND 77 1210 15.7 12 71
5 Jimmy Smith JAC 74 1172 15.8 6 65
6 Derrick Mason TEN 96 1168 12.2 7 37
7 Rod Smith DEN 79 1144 14.5 7 85
8 Andre Johnson HOU 79 1142 14.5 6 54
9 Marvin Harrison IND 86 1113 12.9 15 59
10 Eddie Kennison KC 62 1086 17.5 8 70
11 Ashley Lelie DEN 54 1084 20.1 7 58
12 Brandon Stokley IND 68 1077 15.8 10 69
13 Eric Moulds BUF 88 1043 11.9 5 49
14 Hines Ward PIT 80 1004 12.6 4 58

He had decent receptions with 80, but kinda blah other than that.

Jimmy Smith, Reggie Wayne... all much more deserving. Rod Smith, Lelie, Kennison ... you could make much better cases.

shaneo69
01-14-2005, 07:50 AM
Sure, he's a great WR... but, not an AFC Pro Bowl Selection in 2004. Doesn't matter that they play call was conservative or having a rookie starter (that was undefeated).

Rank Player Team Rec Yds Avg TDs Long
1 Chad Johnson CIN 95 1274 13.4 9 53
2 Tony Gonzalez KC 102 1258 12.3 7 32
3 Drew Bennett TEN 80 1247 15.6 11 48
4 Reggie Wayne IND 77 1210 15.7 12 71
5 Jimmy Smith JAC 74 1172 15.8 6 65
6 Derrick Mason TEN 96 1168 12.2 7 37
7 Rod Smith DEN 79 1144 14.5 7 85
8 Andre Johnson HOU 79 1142 14.5 6 54
9 Marvin Harrison IND 86 1113 12.9 15 59
10 Eddie Kennison KC 62 1086 17.5 8 70
11 Ashley Lelie DEN 54 1084 20.1 7 58
12 Brandon Stokley IND 68 1077 15.8 10 69
13 Eric Moulds BUF 88 1043 11.9 5 49
14 Hines Ward PIT 80 1004 12.6 4 58



Remember back when Tony G.'s contract was up and Peterson and Gretz went on a massive public campaign to lower his perceived value by saying that TG should only be paid as the top TE and shouldn't be given WR money because he didn't put up numbers like the top WR's? Well now when you look at the numbers, it's hard to argue that TG doesn't deserve to be paid like a top WR.

Mile High Mania
01-14-2005, 08:51 AM
Remember back when Tony G.'s contract was up and Peterson and Gretz went on a massive public campaign to lower his perceived value by saying that TG should only be paid as the top TE and shouldn't be given WR money because he didn't put up numbers like the top WR's? Well now when you look at the numbers, it's hard to argue that TG doesn't deserve to be paid like a top WR.

True, but if KC were to ever field two consistently good threats at WR... TG will likely fall back to the 75 catch - 850 - 7 TD range.

shaneo69
01-14-2005, 09:08 AM
True, but if KC were to ever field two consistently good threats at WR... TG will likely fall back to the 75 catch - 850 - 7 TD range.

I don't know.....Stokley managed to get 1,000 yards receiving for the Colts despite having threats like Harrison and Wayne playing with him. Why couldn't TG still get 1,000 yards with two other receiving threats playing with him?

Mile High Mania
01-14-2005, 09:12 AM
I don't know.....Stokley managed to get 1,000 yards receiving for the Colts despite having threats like Harrison and Wayne playing with him. Why couldn't TG still get 1,000 yards with two other receiving threats playing with him?

Well, this was a special year with Indy, and it's not often a team has 3 1,000 yd receivers.

I was just going by average for TG... He's had 2 1,000 yd seasons in his career. So, there's no reason he couldn't get 1,000 again.

TG will continue to be one of the best TEs in the game until he quits.

tk13
01-14-2005, 01:15 PM
Ward is also the best blocking receiver in the league. His numbers were a little down, but some of that was conservative play calling due to having a rookie start at QB. He still made a huge impact in the running game. I'd take Ward over many receivers in the league.
He also has excellent hands... probably the best in the league.

ENDelt260
01-14-2005, 01:25 PM
Goshdammit, can you guys get back on track and start justifying DT getting in?

Clearly Gretz's plan is to steal material from us classless and deranged folks because he can't come up with a good case on his own.

C'mon, work together for the greater good, eh.