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View Full Version : Where is Bill Belichek on the list of all-time great coaches?


Ari Chi3fs
01-17-2005, 08:36 AM
This guy is unreal.

2 of 3 SB champs... chance this year... Plus he was a coach on Parcells SB staff. He is moving up the list of top coaches ever. I would say he is definately in my top 10... and close to top 5. He wins this SB... He is top 3.

He just gave the Pats franchise a mental toughness that they didnt have before. He puts fear in them. You fugg up, your locker is emptied. Its all about the win... in KC it is mostly excuses. Belichek doesnt put up with that shit. His winning mentality is second to none right now.

Im kinda jealous.

To think we could have had him instead of Goonther in 1999. :-(

bricks
01-17-2005, 08:58 AM
This guy is unreal.

2 of 3 SB champs... chance this year... Plus he was a coach on Parcells SB staff. He is moving up the list of top coaches ever. I would say he is definately in my top 10... and close to top 5. He wins this SB... He is top 3.

He just gave the Pats franchise a mental toughness that they didnt have before. He puts fear in them. You fugg up, your locker is emptied. Its all about the win... in KC it is mostly excuses. Belichek doesnt put up with that shit. His winning mentality is second to none right now.

Im kinda jealous.

To think we could have had him instead of Goonther in 1999. :-(

He is the main reason why the Pats are the Pats. And Vermeil is the main reason why the Chiefs are the Chiefs.

Hoover
01-17-2005, 09:06 AM
he is the best HC in the NFL now by far.

If he gets another he will be top 5. If he can win 2 more he will be 2nd only to VL

cdcox
01-17-2005, 09:08 AM
Too soon to say. No doubt he is a great coach and will probably end his career on the list of 10 greatest coaches ever. The luster always fades a bit when a coach hits a dry spell. The real question is can he re-establish dominance after this group of players fades away. No one has ever done that before.

shaneo69
01-17-2005, 09:12 AM
The top guys to me are Lombardi, Noll, Shula, Landry, Paul Brown, and Walsh, because each guy dominated an entire decade.

Right now, I'd put Belichick in the Parcells category of just outside the top 6, but if he wins this Super Bowl, I think there's a good case for him being in the top 7. However, he's been dominant in a 5 year period similar to Jimmy Johnson. I'd like to see Belichick win at least one Super Bowl in the 2nd half of this decade to call him one of the top 6.

JimNasium
01-17-2005, 09:12 AM
He is also responsible for their cap-strategy and the chemistry that this team has. He is certainly the real "genious" (CPS) in the current NFL coaching fraternity.

blsilks
01-17-2005, 09:16 AM
Belichek is a mediocre coach with a medicre team. The only problem is that the rest of the league stinks so it makes him look really good. A coach should not go down is history as the greatest coach of all time just because he does his job. I do my job at work and you dont see me going down in history has the greatest employee of all time.

Alphaman
01-17-2005, 09:17 AM
He's definitely up there with the top guys. I think there are 2 categories of great coaches:

1) A guy who takes his team to multiple SBs. Belichek, Landry, Walsh, Nolls, Lombardi, Stram, even Levy

2) A guy who takes multiple teams to a SB. Parcells, Vermeil


Good, but not great.....Marty - has taken 3 teams to the playoffs.

Skip Towne
01-17-2005, 09:19 AM
And, of course, there's Marty, the winningest active coach. (I just had to do it)

MOhillbilly
01-17-2005, 09:19 AM
how did gibbs not make the list?WTF?

JimNasium
01-17-2005, 09:28 AM
how did gibbs not make the list?WTF?
Agreed.

RNR
01-17-2005, 09:29 AM
Belichek is a mediocre coach with a medicre team. The only problem is that the rest of the league stinks so it makes him look really good. A coach should not go down is history as the greatest coach of all time just because he does his job. I do my job at work and you dont see me going down in history has the greatest employee of all time.
Greatest of all-time is a reach, but not near the reach of calling him mediocre. He is the first coach to deal with the cap and free agency and put together a run of of any length. The Cowboys had a run but Johnson built that team without dealing with free agents or the cap. When they came into effect the Cowboys fell to earth.

PatriotofMaine
01-17-2005, 10:06 AM
#2. (Behind some old guy grom the Green Bay Packers...lol)

Deberg_1990
01-17-2005, 10:14 AM
Where is the love for Marv Levy? Why did we ever fire that guy anyway??

blsilks
01-17-2005, 10:15 AM
Shula?

Bob Dole
01-17-2005, 10:16 AM
He is the main reason why the Pats are the Pats. And Vermeil is the main reason why the Chiefs are the Chiefs.

The sun is the main reason we have daylight. The moon is the main reason we have tides.

Deberg_1990
01-17-2005, 10:19 AM
Shula?

ah..i forgot about him. Hes like the forgotten giant. He was a great one as well.

blsilks
01-17-2005, 10:23 AM
Why does Belichek have to be one of the greatest of all time. Why can't he be one of the luckiest of all time?

JimNasium
01-17-2005, 10:24 AM
Guys like Shula and Levy were great coaches but they don't belong in the list with guys that have won multiple Super Bowls in my opinion. I think getting to the dance plays a role in the occassion but screwing the prom queen multiple times is the biggest factor.


************EDIT*******************

If Shula has won two Super Bowls I apologize to him and retract the above.

Phobia
01-17-2005, 10:27 AM
Why does Belichek have to be one of the greatest of all time. Why can't he be one of the luckiest of all time?

I don't know. If he's so great, why didn't the Browns win a Super Bowl?

blsilks
01-17-2005, 10:28 AM
I don't know. If he's so great, why didn't the Browns win a Super Bowl?

OOOHHH SNAP!!!

Skip Towne
01-17-2005, 10:31 AM
Guys like Shula and Levy were great coaches but they don't belong in the list with guys that have won multiple Super Bowls in my opinion. I think getting to the dance plays a role in the occassion but screwing the prom queen multiple times is the biggest factor.


************EDIT*******************

If Shula has won two Super Bowls I apologize to him and retract the above.
You're always trying to turn the conversation to sex.

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 10:32 AM
He's definitely up there with the top guys. I think there are 2 categories of great coaches:

1) A guy who takes his team to multiple SBs. Belichek, Landry, Walsh, Nolls, Lombardi, Stram, even Levy

2) A guy who takes multiple teams to a SB. Parcells, Vermeil


Good, but not great.....Marty - has taken 3 teams to the playoffs.


Dan Reeves....Mike Shanahan...Shula....Bud(the Vikings Coach from the 70's)......Joe Gibbs...Tom Flor(can't spell his name)...

Deberg_1990
01-17-2005, 10:34 AM
Dan Reeves....Mike Shanahan...Shula....Bud(the Vikings Coach from the 70's)......Joe Gibbs...Tom Flor(can't spell his name)...


I was wondering when "The Rats" name would pop up??

RNR
01-17-2005, 10:35 AM
Guys like Shula and Levy were great coaches but they don't belong in the list with guys that have won multiple Super Bowls in my opinion. I think getting to the dance plays a role in the occassion but screwing the prom queen multiple times is the biggest factor.


************EDIT*******************

If Shula has won two Super Bowls I apologize to him and retract the above.
He did, and coached in five or six

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 10:37 AM
I don't know. If he's so great, why didn't the Browns win a Super Bowl?

First, he was with the Browns for 5 years. The first 3 were nothing special. The 4th year he went 11-5 and won a playoff game. The last year they were like 3-1 when Modell announced the move to Baltimore, the season went in the crapper, and he got canned. That was 1997.

In 2000, the team he started to build, and the personnel guys he brought in who had gone to Baltimore with the team (Newsome and Savage, among others), won a championship (Ravens).

Who knows what would have happened if Modell hadn't taken the team to Baltimore?

Secondly, he was the youngest HC in the NFL, or in NFL history mebbe, when he became HC of the Browns.

In any event, he's now like 52 years old and hopefully has many years left in him.

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 10:39 AM
He also shit canned Bernie Kosar for no real good reason other than to make Testeverde his QB....but my memory might be bad.

Phobia
01-17-2005, 10:41 AM
Dan Reeves....Mike Shanahan...Shula....Bud(the Vikings Coach from the 70's)......Joe Gibbs...Tom Flor(can't spell his name)...

If you can spell Garcia, you should be able to spell Flores.

Deberg_1990
01-17-2005, 10:42 AM
First, he was with the Browns for 5 years. The first 3 were nothing special. The 4th year he went 11-5 and won a playoff game. The last year they were like 3-1 when Modell announced the move to Baltimore, the season went in the crapper, and he got canned. That was 1997.

In 2000, the team he started to build, and the personnel guys he brought in who had gone to Baltimore with the team (Newsome and Savage, among others), won a championship (Ravens).


Who knows what would have happened if Modell hadn't taken the team to Baltimore?

Secondly, he was the youngest HC in the NFL, or in NFL history mebbe, when he became HC of the Browns.

In any event, he's now like 52 years old and hopefully has many years left in him.

Thirdly, he had Vinny Testaverde as his QB back then. Why does any coach think they can win with that turd??

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 10:42 AM
If you can spell Garcia, you should be able to spell Flores.


See...I could barely remember his name...I was 7 for cripes sake.

RNR
01-17-2005, 10:42 AM
Secondly, he was the youngest HC in the NFL, or in NFL history mebbe, when he became HC of the Browns.
Not even close
http://www.profootballhof.com/history/stats/youngest_coaches.jsp

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 10:42 AM
He also shit canned Bernie Kosar for no real good reason....but my memory might be bad.

While that move made him immensely unpopular in Cleveland, it was clear Testaverde was better (it was Testaverde that took them to the 11 win season and playoff victory, and a few years later took the Jets to a 12 win season. Kosar's expiration date had come due).

BTW, have you come to realize the error of your ways with respect to elite teams??

DTLB58
01-17-2005, 10:43 AM
Belichek is a mediocre coach with a medicre team. The only problem is that the rest of the league stinks so it makes him look really good. A coach should not go down is history as the greatest coach of all time just because he does his job. I do my job at work and you dont see me going down in history has the greatest employee of all time.

They might have mediocre talent but then if that coach can get those players to win 2 out 3 S.B. and possibly 3 out of 4. I would call that a great coach. You can't tell me the rest of the league all 31 other teams have been that sorry for 3 of those years.

He has found a winning way, whether it be offense and especially defense and has gotten his players to play as a TEAM like no other franchise during this span.

If he wins a third SB he will be tied 2nd with Bill Walsh and Joe Gibbs for MOST wins coaching in a SB! I don't think anyone refers to either of those guys as mediocre.

Frankly, I'm sick of the Patroits I want someone else in the SB, but the numbers don't lie. If anyone says this run he has put together is lucky is just in denial and jealous.

Phobia
01-17-2005, 10:43 AM
First, he was with the Browns for 5 years. The first 3 were nothing special. The 4th year he went 11-5 and won a playoff game. The last year they were like 3-1 when Modell announced the move to Baltimore, the season went in the crapper, and he got canned. That was 1997.

In 2000, the team he started to build, and the personnel guys he brought in who had gone to Baltimore with the team (Newsome and Savage, among others), won a championship (Ravens).

Who knows what would have happened if Modell hadn't taken the team to Baltimore?

Secondly, he was the youngest HC in the NFL, or in NFL history mebbe, when he became HC of the Browns.

In any event, he's now like 52 years old and hopefully has many years left in him.

That's a nice rebuttal. But, I hate it when a head coach gets ALL the credit. I like how Belichek runs his team a LOT better than I like Vermeil. Belichek knows how to prepare a game plan. But that team has a whole lot more going for it than just Belichek.

Belichek is a good coach and I'd like to have him as a coach for KC. It would make no difference though - he wouldn't be able to produce the same results in KC.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 10:46 AM
He's a great coach ... specifically defensively, but I wonder what would the Pats and Bill's legacy have become had Bledsoe NEVER been injured?

I doubt that Brady would have seen any action that year... doubt that NE would have advanced and likely would have dealt with "QB issues" the following season.

Big kudos to Bill for drafting Brady in R6, but who knows how it all would have turned out had Bledsoe not have had a collapsed lung, thus ending his tenure.

Deberg_1990
01-17-2005, 10:48 AM
He's a great coach ... specifically defensively, but I wonder what would the Pats and Bill's legacy have become had Bledsoe NEVER been injured?

I doubt that Brady would have seen any action that year... doubt that NE would have advanced and likely would have dealt with "QB issues" the following season.

Big kudos to Bill for drafting Brady in R6, but who knows how it all would have turned out had Bledsoe not have had a collapsed lung, thus ending his tenure.

Well, he did dump Kosar for Vinny when he was in Cleveland, so he probably would have pulled the plug on Bledsoe sooner or later.

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 10:48 AM
While that move made him immensely unpopular in Cleveland, it was clear Testaverde was better (it was Testaverde that took them to the 11 win season and playoff victory, and a few years later took the Jets to a 12 win season. Kosar's expiration date had come due).

BTW, have you come to realize the error of your ways with respect to elite teams??

I still say denver would have played you better than that because we match up better. Like I said the other day....you can call yourself "Elite" all you want....doesn't increase your chances of winning a game. But don't worry about the donk fan...worry about the Steeler fans.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 10:52 AM
Not even close
http://www.profootballhof.com/history/stats/youngest_coaches.jsp

Okay. Youngest HC in the NFL at that time, then. I couldn't quite remember what it was.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 10:54 AM
That's a nice rebuttal. But, I hate it when a head coach gets ALL the credit. I like how Belichek runs his team a LOT better than I like Vermeil. Belichek knows how to prepare a game plan. But that team has a whole lot more going for it than just Belichek.

Belichek is a good coach and I'd like to have him as a coach for KC. It would make no difference though - he wouldn't be able to produce the same results in KC.

I absolutely agree with all of the above to the degree that it means "you need good players too". I saw with my own eyes an entire season of "we can't stop the run" in 2002. We were horrible. Without a decent nose tackle, and with an injury or two to our inside LBs, we were DONE. No scheme could fix it.

(p.s. -- it was the Chiefs who exposed us in the 3rd game of that season).

IMHO, however, Belichick, if given full control of operations and allowed to bring his sidekick Pioli to run personnel, would succeed ANYWHERE.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 10:56 AM
He's a great coach ... specifically defensively, but I wonder what would the Pats and Bill's legacy have become had Bledsoe NEVER been injured?

I doubt that Brady would have seen any action that year... doubt that NE would have advanced and likely would have dealt with "QB issues" the following season.

Big kudos to Bill for drafting Brady in R6, but who knows how it all would have turned out had Bledsoe not have had a collapsed lung, thus ending his tenure.

For whatever they're worth, the rumor is that Bledsoe wasn't likely to start past the 2001 year. Brady had already moved up to #2 and was likely to be given a chance to take over in 2002.

This is the same guy who cashiered Kosar in Cleveland, so he kinda had a history of ignoring popular opinion. Luckily, Bledsoe DID get injured so BB didn't get crucified for doing it. It's beyond clear now that Brady is the better QB.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 10:57 AM
I still say denver would have played you better than that because we match up better. Like I said the other day....you can call yourself "Elite" all you want....doesn't increase your chances of winning a game. But don't worry about the donk fan...worry about the Steeler fans.

I agree that Denver probably would have done better. The bad weather wouldn't have affected them as much either.

Saying you're "elite" doesn't change anything in any given game. It's just an accurate label to describe a team.

The Cardinals, for many years, have sucked. The Patriots for the last 4 years have been, and are, elite.

Denver....isn't.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 10:58 AM
For whatever they're worth, the rumor is that Bledsoe wasn't likely to start past the 2001 year. Brady had already moved up to #2 and was likely to be given a chance to take over in 2002.

This is the same guy who cashiered Kosar in Cleveland, so he kinda had a history of ignoring popular opinion. Luckily, Bledsoe DID get injured so BB didn't get crucified for doing it. It's beyond clear now that Brady is the better QB.

Sure, but nobody knows how it would have turned out and goes back to the notion that every team - good and bad - needs a little luck.

Phobia
01-17-2005, 11:00 AM
IMHO, however, Belichick, if given full control of operations and allowed to bring his sidekick Pioli to run personnel, would succeed ANYWHERE.

Likewise, I think it's a whole lot more than just Pioli, Bill, and some players. Everything has fallen into place for your team. Everything.

Who in the hell gives up first round picks for a washed up QB? That would have been like Vermeil getting picks from Baltimore for Grbac. WTF? That's just one small example of the shit that has gone right for the Pats.

bricks
01-17-2005, 11:01 AM
That's a nice rebuttal. But, I hate it when a head coach gets ALL the credit. I like how Belichek runs his team a LOT better than I like Vermeil. Belichek knows how to prepare a game plan. But that team has a whole lot more going for it than just Belichek.

Belichek is a good coach and I'd like to have him as a coach for KC. It would make no difference though - he wouldn't be able to produce the same results in KC.

I agree. Because Carl isn't even a mere quarter a genious like Pioli. Nor, is Lynn Styles even comparable to Andy Wasynczuk, and Jack Mula.

RNR
01-17-2005, 11:02 AM
Okay. Youngest HC in the NFL at that time, then. I couldn't quite remember what it was.
I am glad I ran a google, as I was sure Madden or Gruden were the youngest. That said people can throw rocks all they want, they are throwing uphill as he is sitting on top of it right now.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 11:04 AM
It's a hell of a thing they have going without a doubt... this isn't the only year they've had key injury after key injury and the team just keeps rolling.

It's been a fun ride for NE fans and should be for a few more years...

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 11:05 AM
Likewise, I think it's a whole lot more than just Pioli, Bill, and some players. Everything has fallen into place for your team. Everything.

Who in the hell gives up first round picks for a washed up QB? That would have been like Vermeil getting picks from Baltimore for Grbac. WTF? That's just one small example of the shit that has gone right for the Pats.

I could give you the laundry list of injuries we've had over the last 2 years to show how not everything has gone right.

I could note how we had to win with an offense whose best running back was Antowain Smith.

How we had to overcome Terry Glenn and all his antics on the way to winning the 2001 Super Bowl (he could have been a big distraction).

Or discuss Ty Law's recent offseason where he called the coach a liar etc. in order to try to get out of his contract so he could strike it rich elsewhere.

But I won't... :)

shaneo69
01-17-2005, 11:07 AM
Dan Reeves....Mike Shanahan...Shula....Bud(the Vikings Coach from the 70's)......Joe Gibbs...Tom Flor(can't spell his name)...


Dan Reeves, Bud Grant, and Marv Levy all deserve to be in the special "loser" category. They would be behind Vermiel, Seifert, Holmgren, Weeb Ewbanks, Hank Stram, and several others in my book.

Cochise
01-17-2005, 11:07 AM
Well, he's got 2, maybe on his way to 3 super bowls. Something like 8-1 postseason record, second only to Lombardi. Put together the longest winning streak ever.

They 'benefited' if you will from the Bledsoe injury, but injuries happen to every team, and he put all the personnel in place. Unless I am mistaken I think I heard them say yesterday that there are only 4 players on the team that precede Belichick's tenure. And you can't tell me that all the injuries that they have endured the past few years have been beneficial. And yet it doesn't seem to matter who they are matched up against, or who's healthy, or where they are, they get it done.

Deberg_1990
01-17-2005, 11:07 AM
I could give you the laundry list of injuries we've had over the last 2 years to show how not everything has gone right.

I could note how we had to win with an offense whose best running back was Antowain Smith.

How we had to overcome Terry Glenn and all his antics on the way to winning the 2001 Super Bowl (he could have been a big distraction).

Or discuss Ty Law's recent offseason where he called the coach a liar etc. in order to try to get out of his contract so he could strike it rich elsewhere.

But I won't... :)

Losing Lawyer Milloy didnt stop you guys from rolling either....

Phobia
01-17-2005, 11:07 AM
I could give you the laundry list of injuries we've had over the last 2 years to show how not everything has gone right.

I could note how we had to win with an offense whose best running back was Antowain Smith.

How we had to overcome Terry Glenn and all his antics on the way to winning the 2001 Super Bowl (he could have been a big distraction).

Or discuss Ty Law's recent offseason where he called the coach a liar etc. in order to try to get out of his contract so he could strike it rich elsewhere.

But I won't... :)

Those are all very good points, ones I haven't forgotten. But, dealing with that adversity such that it has little if any effect is, by very definition, having everything go "right". IMO.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 11:08 AM
Why does Belichek have to be one of the greatest of all time. Why can't he be one of the luckiest of all time?

You're kidding right?

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 11:09 AM
Losing Lawyer Milloy didnt stop you guys from rolling either....

Not bad luck, though. If it had hurt it, it would have been a self-inflicted wound. :)

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 11:09 AM
Dan Reeves, Bud Grant, and Marv Levy all deserve to be in the special "loser" category. They would be behind Vermiel, Seifert, Holmgren, Weeb Ewbanks, Hank Stram, and several others in my book.

While Reeves and Levy specifically can't win the big one... they're far from anything relating to "loser coach". Reeves took 3 franchises to the playoffs ... two to Super Bowls. His w/l record is sweet.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 11:10 AM
Well, he's got 2, maybe on his way to 3 super bowls. Something like 8-1 postseason record, second only to Lombardi. Put together the longest winning streak ever.

They 'benefited' if you will from the Bledsoe injury, but injuries happen to every team, and he put all the personnel in place. Unless I am mistaken I think I heard them say yesterday that there are only 4 players on the team that precede Belichick's tenure.

Willie McGinest, Ted Johnson, Ty Law, Troy Brown, Adam Vinatieri, Tedy Bruschi all precede Belichick. Might be a couple others too.

Note these are ALL from the Parcells era. I don't think anybody is left from the drafts/FA acquisitions under that idiot Grier, who ran things when Pete Carroll was HC.

Phobia
01-17-2005, 11:11 AM
While Reeves and Levy specifically can't win the big one... they're far from anything relating to "loser coach". Reeves took 3 franchises to the playoffs ... two to Super Bowls. His w/l record is sweet.

Come on. Reeves couldn't hold Vermeil's jock.

I've never known Reeves to hug a player.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 11:11 AM
Those are all very good points, ones I haven't forgotten. But, dealing with that adversity such that it has little if any effect is, by very definition, having everything go "right". IMO.

I boggle at the twisted logic to arrive at this conclusion...

Phobia
01-17-2005, 11:12 AM
I boggle at the twisted logic to arrive at this conclusion...

You may think it's twisted, but it's MY logic. Mine.

I was actually hoping to jack up the grammar and punctuation so much that nobody would respond.

Ari Chi3fs
01-17-2005, 11:15 AM
wow, the guy who started this great thread is a badass.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 11:16 AM
By the way:

1. Paul Brown (revolutionized how teams schemed and ran their clubs).

2. Vince Lombardi

3/4. Tom Landry / Don Shula (both great in their own way, and IMHO equally so)

Next tier is a group that I would group roughly together that includes Chuck Noll, Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh, Bill Belichick and Jimmy Johnson (no particular order). All were great coaches, and it's hard for me to rank them. Walsh is given credit for ALOT of things that were innovative (West Coast Offense) that are really Paul Brown creations. Not that Walsh wasn't a GREAT coach, he was, but in some ways he's gotten credit for stuff he shouldn't.

Deberg_1990
01-17-2005, 11:16 AM
If Bellicheck is so great how did he lose to the Dolphins this year???? hahah

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 11:17 AM
You may think it's twisted, but it's MY logic. Mine.

I was actually hoping to jack up the grammar and punctuation so much that nobody would respond.

Sadly, I'm a lawyer and, therefore, I'm more than used to struggling through painful sentences or, for that matter, writing them.

:) :p

Phobia
01-17-2005, 11:18 AM
Oh yeah. You are a lawyer. Just think.... there are people like me on juries and benches all over the country. Not me, specifically for I'm far too smart to be roped into jury duty....

Cochise
01-17-2005, 11:20 AM
Well, anyway, what I was getting at is that you can argue about statistics but there can be no dispute over who the best coach in the NFL is. There are a lot of great, famous names of coaches in the past but how many were ever head and shoulders the best of their time? Not all that many.

He's got to be top 10 now, give him another super bowl and he'll be in second place all-time in super bowl wins with three, only behind Knoll, right?

Wouldn't being second-place all time among super bowl winning coaches alone put you in the top 5?

RNR
01-17-2005, 11:21 AM
Sadly, I'm a lawyer and, therefore, I'm more than used to struggling through painful sentences or, for that matter, writing them.

:) :p
You are a lawyer! two out of three superbowls, a chance to win another, and a lawyer....in my best (Doc Holiday) now I really hate you! :)

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 11:21 AM
I agree that Denver probably would have done better. The bad weather wouldn't have affected them as much either.

Saying you're "elite" doesn't change anything in any given game. It's just an accurate label to describe a team.

The Cardinals, for many years, have sucked. The Patriots for the last 4 years have been, and are, elite.

Denver....isn't.

Still doesn't change the fact that it's a media driven label that has nothing to do with the ability to win a game. Will you still be an elite team if you lose to Pittsburg? Sure....why not...."elite" still won't mean anything.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 11:22 AM
Wouldn't being second-place all time among super bowl winning coaches alone put you in the top 5?
I'd like to think so.

What's awesome (for Pats fans) is that guy is like 52 or 53 years old. We could have 10 more years of Belichick/Brady. Woo hoo!

(not that that guarantees anything -- after all I'm sure 'phins fans were saying about the same thing after 1984 when Don Shula and Dan Marino (in his 2nd year having thrown 48 TD passes) lost in the SB --- "no problem -- with this combo, we'll be back MANY times!!!....." Ooops. Haven't been back since).

Ari Chi3fs
01-17-2005, 11:22 AM
Personally, I think Hank Stram is in the top ten--- 2 SB appearance out of the first 4... at one point he had helped lead the chiefs to 100% of the SBs... then 50% of the SBs then 33% of the SBs... then back up to 50% of the SBs...

those are great statistics, innit?

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 11:23 AM
Personally, I think Hank Stram is in the top ten--- 2 SB appearance out of the first 4... at one point he had helped lead the chiefs to 100% of the SBs... then 50% of the SBs then 33% of the SBs... then back up to 50% of the SBs...

those are great statistics, innit?


:shake:




ROFL

PatsWin2002
01-17-2005, 11:26 AM
I think BB will be king when he goes out.

Those guys like Lombardi and Walsh coached in the non salary cap era.

People have always wondered what it would be like if the playing field were leveled....and now you know.

Belichick has the parity thing as an ASSET not a detraction. He just does it better than everybody else right now. And he's arguably the best X and O gameplanner ever.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 11:28 AM
It's only been a few years... granted a great 3-4 years, so let's see what happens as this decade comes to an end.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 11:33 AM
It's only been a few years... granted a great 3-4 years, so let's see what happens as this decade comes to an end.

Agreed. The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades, as it were, but it's still too early to anoint utter greatness or anything.

One variable is I dunno how much BB's 2 SB wins from when he was the Giants DC counts... Does he get a little credit, no credit, alot of credit. :shrug:

Cochise
01-17-2005, 11:34 AM
I'd like to think so.

What's awesome (for Pats fans) is that guy is like 52 or 53 years old. We could have 10 more years of Belichick/Brady. Woo hoo!

Well, teams will go up and down but you know that the great coaches are going to be in the hunt with whatever they have. A great coach can turn out more of those project players, that were maybe not great talents, not highly touted prospects, but he made them into good football players.

That's the difference between an upper echelon coach and someone like Shanahan, Holmgren, etc. A lot of coaches have won super bowls. It has to happen to someone every year. But I bet if you looked you'd see that the majority of them were won by a decent coach who had a huge load of talent that year and got enough breaks along the way.

PatsWin2002
01-17-2005, 11:36 AM
But look how far Gruden has fallen....yet BB and "the system" keep chugging along.

Cochise
01-17-2005, 11:40 AM
But look how far Gruden has fallen....yet BB and "the system" keep chugging along.

You can name tons of people like that. People who IMO won more because their team was loaded than because they were a great coach. Dungy, Holmgren, Johnson, Shanahan, Seifert, Switzer, etc... all those are names that come to mind.

Hoover
01-17-2005, 11:42 AM
I just find it hard to believe that NFL players would play for a Gay Head Coach.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 11:44 AM
But look how far Gruden has fallen....yet BB and "the system" keep chugging along.

I think Gruden is a solid coach, but a terrible GM.

I also give Tony Dungy a good 40% of the credit for that SB victory, although I also think they wouldn't have won it if they hadn't chanced HCs, if you follow my logic.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 11:45 AM
You can name tons of people like that. People who IMO won more because their team was loaded than because they were a great coach. Gruden, Holmgren, Johnson, Shanahan, Seifert, Switzer, etc... all those are super bowl winning names that come to mind.

Switzer -- the ultimate example...

JJ, I think, gets more credit for being a great GM than for being a great coach. I think he was a great GM and a solid HC who had two terrific coordinators (Turner and Wannstedt).

For whatever reason, he lost the magic touch when he went to Miami.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 11:50 AM
You can name tons of people like that. People who IMO won more because their team was loaded than because they were a great coach. Dungy, Holmgren, Johnson, Shanahan, Seifert, Switzer, etc... all those are names that come to mind.

ROFL Now, I'll give you Switzer, but it's silly to put Shanahan on that list. He took over as head coach in 1995 ... the year prior they were 7-9 in '94, 9-7 in '93 and 8-8 in '92.

He took the good from that 7-9 team (Elway, Sharpe, Atwater and a few others) and built a team through FA and the draft. He bult that championship team.. he didn't inherit it.

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 11:51 AM
You can name tons of people like that. People who IMO won more because their team was loaded than because they were a great coach. Dungy, Holmgren, Johnson, Shanahan, Seifert, Switzer, etc... all those are names that come to mind.
You can go ahead and back Shanahan, Holmgren, and Johnson out of that one. Denver Wasn't loaded....Ed McCaffery, TD, and Rod Smith(Smith wasn't in 95)...was considered loaded in 95 when he brought them to the team. Geeze...Rod Smith is an undrafted rookie free agent. Ed McCaffery had been cut from two teams for being white and slow. Terrell Davis was a sixth round pick that got past the first cut down on Special Teams.

Johnson was instrumental in drafting many of the players that made the team "loaded"

Holmgren nursed Brett Favre along until he got his game together to win...Andre Rison, Bennett, Brooks, and rookie Antonio Freeman is loaded?


I disagree.

Deberg_1990
01-17-2005, 11:52 AM
Switzer -- the ultimate example...



God, did he even coach that year? Ill bet someone could make a case that Aikman and Emmit were the "real" coaches. I remember him eating hotdogs on the sidelines with his players.

Cochise
01-17-2005, 11:55 AM
arpe, Atwater and a few others) and built a team through FA and the draft. He bult that championship team.. he didn't inherit it.

I credit him for building that team. But it doesn't change that the team was loaded and won because of that, not because he's some mastermind of coaching. He didn't do more with less. He did what should happen with a boatload of talent.

Call him a great GM if you want I guess... along with Holmgren then, and Jimmy Johnson for being great GMs. Though Shanahan hasn't looked like a great GM or a great coach since that team.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 11:58 AM
Wait a minute ... that team from '94 that Shanahan inherited was loaded!

RB
Leonard Russell - 620 yds / 9 TD
Rod Bernstine / Derrick Clarck / Reggie Rivers for depth

WR
Anthony 'Cancer' Miller - 1107 yds / 5 TD
Glynn Milburn - 549
Cedric Tilman / Mike Pritchard and several others killing time

TE
Shannon Sharpe - 1,010 yds and 4 TDs...

Yeah, I don't know that I can question that talent! It looked really similar to the 95 Broncos...

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 11:59 AM
I credit him for building that team. But it doesn't change that the team was loaded and won because of that, not because he's some mastermind of coaching. He didn't do more with less. He did what should happen with a boatload of talent.



That's complete crap...Denver was regarded by many players and media at the time as a well coached team...not a loaded team...but a well coached team.

Not only did he build those teams...he coached them too...

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 12:01 PM
I credit him for building that team. But it doesn't change that the team was loaded and won because of that, not because he's some mastermind of coaching. He didn't do more with less. He did what should happen with a boatload of talent.

Call him a great GM if you want I guess... along with Holmgren then, and Jimmy Johnson for being great GMs. Though Shanahan hasn't looked like a great GM or a great coach since that team.

You can't look at the 94 roster and tell me it was loaded on either side of the ball... there were 4-5 key players from that team, but that's it.

Discrediting what Shanahan did once taking over is weak. The 95 team was incredibly different than what he took over, as were the 96-98 teams.

Cochise
01-17-2005, 12:07 PM
You can't look at the 94 roster and tell me it was loaded on either side of the ball... there were 4-5 key players from that team, but that's it.

Discrediting what Shanahan did once taking over is weak. The 95 team was incredibly different than what he took over, as were the 96-98 teams.

That is what I am saying. I credit him for being a good GM who put together Super Bowl talent.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 12:11 PM
That is what I am saying. I credit him for being a good GM who put together Super Bowl talent.

Ok, so who coached that talent that he pulled together? Autopilot? Kubiak?

The team set records for wins in that 3 year span of greatness.

39-9 over the regular season from 1996-1998
7-1 in the 3 playoff appearances from 1996-1998.

Somebody had to call the shots of all that talent.

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 12:11 PM
That is what I am saying. I credit him for being a good GM who put together Super Bowl talent.
He coached them as well...really well...

Should I post his coaching resume? It pretty fuggin tight..Championships at every level.

People often are quick to point out that Shanahan hasn't won a Super Bowl since Elway. What they don't point out is the Elway never played in a Super Bowl without Mike Shanahan. Steve Young never won a super bowl without Mike Shanahan. He's a good coach.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 12:13 PM
Right now, Bill B finds himself in the same light that Shanahan was in during that mid-late 90s timeframe. The good thing for him is the youth of guys like Brady.

Shanahan built that team with older guys at key spots, so who knows what they would have done had Elway, Atwater, Smith and others not been towards the ends of their careers.

Cochise
01-17-2005, 12:13 PM
Ok, so who coached that talent that he pulled together? Autopilot? Kubiak?

The team set records for wins in that 3 year span of greatness.

39-9 over the regular season from 1996-1998
7-1 in the 3 playoff appearances from 1996-1998.

Somebody had to call the shots of all that talent.

You missed what I said earlier. A good GM and decent coach.

Though he hasn't looked like either in 7 years since, I will give him that.

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 12:15 PM
You missed what I said earlier. A good GM and decent coach.

Though he hasn't looked like either in 7 years since, I will give him that.

He's a great coach...and a decent GM.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 12:18 PM
Shanahan has made some bone headed moves in FA and the draft. No two ways about it, but he's also kicked ass several times in both.

Denver is not afraid to take chances on guys and they are always willing to go get the help they need... some teams are more passive and conservative.

Sure, being overly agressive in FA bites you sometimes, but I like that the team and the coach are willing to take the chances to improve the team.

He has more positives than negative during his tenure in Denver. To say he's been neither a good GM or coach since Elway retired is absurd.

Cochise
01-17-2005, 12:19 PM
He's a great coach...and a decent GM.

That is your opinion. The case can be made either way. Mine is that he at looked like a great GM/decent coach but is now a decent GM/decent coach.

So where do you guys think Shanahan ranks among active coaches then? I would be curious to see how you think a guy with no playoff wins in 6 or 7 years ranks among his peers...

Cochise
01-17-2005, 12:20 PM
Denver is not afraid to take chances on guys and they are always willing to go get the help they need... some teams are more passive and conservative.

That is true, although in the post-Elway era it's gotten us both the same results.

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 12:25 PM
That is your opinion. The case can be made either way. Mine is that he at looked like a great GM/decent coach but is now a decent GM/decent coach.

So where do you guys think Shanahan ranks among active coaches then? I would be curious to see how you think a guy with no playoff wins in 6 or 7 years ranks among his peers...


Active coaches...

Easy Top 5..

BB
Reid
Shanahan
Cowher
Billck

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 12:26 PM
That is true, although in the post-Elway era it's gotten us both the same results.

If you're referring to "no playoff wins", sure.

But, in that same time frame (6 years)...

Denver has gone to the playoffs 3 times. Only 1 season below .500
KC has gone to the playoffs 1 time. Only 2 seasons greater than .500

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 12:26 PM
Shanahan has made some bone headed moves in FA and the draft. No two ways about it, but he's also kicked ass several times in both.

Denver is not afraid to take chances on guys and they are always willing to go get the help they need... some teams are more passive and conservative.

Sure, being overly agressive in FA bites you sometimes, but I like that the team and the coach are willing to take the chances to improve the team.

He has more positives than negative during his tenure in Denver. To say he's been neither a good GM or coach since Elway retired is absurd.


If you want to go back to the one moment it went wrong for him as a GM....getting that bum from KC..Dale Carter.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 12:31 PM
So where do you guys think Shanahan ranks among active coaches then? I would be curious to see how you think a guy with no playoff wins in 6 or 7 years ranks among his peers...

:hmmm: Lemme think here...

Top Coaches Right now (no order of preference)
Belichick
Reid
Shanahan
Cowher
Fisher
Edward
Dungy
Sherman

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 12:32 PM
If you want to go back to the one moment it went wrong for him as a GM....getting that bum from KC..Dale Carter.

Yeah, that was the first big "WTF?" moment...

mlyonsd
01-17-2005, 12:36 PM
I hate to admit that even though I think Shanahan is an alien that glares but doesn't blink he'd get the Chiefs a playoff win within 3 years if he came here.

Deberg_1990
01-17-2005, 12:41 PM
As far as im concerned, Shanahan is a genius. He won 2 Super Bowls in spite of having GRob as his defensive coach.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 12:42 PM
I hate to admit that even though I think Shanahan is an alien that glares but doesn't blink he'd get the Chiefs a playoff win within 3 years if he came here.

Don't be afraid...

It's only been 6 seasons ... six lonely seasons with 3 playoff appearances and no wins. The thing with Shanahan is that everything went so right too early for him in Denver. Lots of teams would love to say they've had three 10 win seasons in the last 6 years ... only one under .500 and 3 playoff appearances. But, the standards set early don't bring many smiling faces in Denver.

I've become a realists in that I now, I really appreciate the team they were able to build during the 90s. There *might* be 2 (possibly 3) other coaches I'd rather have than Shanahan if he were to leave, probably not even that many.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 12:44 PM
As far as im concerned, Shanahan is a genius. He won 2 Super Bowls in spite of having GRob as his defensive coach.

ROFL I watched the highlight tape from the 97 season about a month ago ... and it really was amazing to go back and see again just how "attacking" that defense was under GRob. There were so many turnovers and defensive scores.

It honestly goes back to talent... those teams had some really nice players. KC didn't have that and he took the blame.

Ari Chi3fs
01-17-2005, 02:21 PM
how dare you say Robinson's name around here.

bogie
01-17-2005, 02:46 PM
How long has Belichick coached for the Pats? What is his win/loss record before and after Brady?

KC Jones
01-17-2005, 03:01 PM
Too soon to say. No doubt he is a great coach and will probably end his career on the list of 10 greatest coaches ever. The luster always fades a bit when a coach hits a dry spell. The real question is can he re-establish dominance after this group of players fades away. No one has ever done that before.

Lombardi did it. You could make a case for Parcells since he did such a great job of rebuilding the Giants, Patriots, and the Jets. Give him another year or two with Dallas and he may do it again.

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 03:12 PM
How long has Belichick coached for the Pats? What is his win/loss record before and after Brady?

5-11 the first year in NE with Bledsoe... then only 2 games with Bledsoe the following year when Brady came on and they won it all.

2000 - 5/11
2001 - 11/5
2002 - 9/7
2003 - 14/2
2004 - 14/2

So, kinda average the last few seasons. :)

Mile High Mania
01-17-2005, 03:16 PM
cdcox - to your statement about nobody ever re-establishing dominance again... Cowher could be on the verge of doing that now.

During a run from 1992 to 1997, Cowhers teams won 11 / 9 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 11 games. then a dry spell. Then 13 in 2001 - 10 in 2002 - 6 last year and 15 this year.

Cowher has easily been the one of the best coaches during the last decade and though he hasn't won a SB, his teams are always very sound and competing at a high level.

And, he's been there since 1992 ... a damn long time in this age of the NFL. I think he's 7-9 all time in the playoffs (including this year).

He has a sweet team with lots of youth, so they could be a force for the next few seasons.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 03:31 PM
How long has Belichick coached for the Pats? What is his win/loss record before and after Brady?

Started in 2000. Before Brady his record sucked. After Brady it's awesome.

Part of it is Brady. Part of it is the time it took him to clear out all the bad talent and install "his" guys.

Amnorix
01-17-2005, 03:34 PM
5-11 the first year in NE with Bledsoe... then only 2 games with Bledsoe the following year when Brady came on and they won it all.

2000 - 5/11
2001 - 11/5
2002 - 9/7
2003 - 14/2
2004 - 14/2

So, kinda average the last few seasons. :)

What he said.

Note 2002 was a year where 3 AFC East teams tied at 9-7. We were in 2nd due to tie-breakers, and missed the playoffs. Given how bad our defense was (especially run defense), we wouldn't have done a thing in the playoffs anyway.