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memyselfI
01-28-2005, 11:27 AM
I remember saying months ago that this was going to be a problem. The US needs these folks on their side and not to be alienating them. :shake:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050128/wl_nm/iraq_election_arabs_dc&cid=574&ncid=1473

Arabs Say Iraq Vote Gives Democracy a Bad Name

Fri Jan 28, 8:52 AM ET World - Reuters


By Tom Perry

CAIRO (Reuters) - President Bush (news - web sites) sees Sunday's election in Iraq (news - web sites) as a beacon for freedom in the Middle East, but Arab reformers say the poll will set back their cause.

Arab human rights activists say the Iraqi election is deeply flawed and will give democracy a bad name. They say violence and the prospect of a Sunni Arab boycott will undermine the poll. Many Arabs, already suspicious of U.S. intentions in Iraq, are also dismissing the vote's credibility because of the presence of the 150,000 U.S. troops there.


"The influence of the elections for us as democrats is disastrous," Syrian human rights activist Haytham Manna told Reuters from Paris. "When you marginalize wide sections of society from the political process ... this is not democracy."


"With this example, all the Arab extremists will say to us: 'You democrats, go to hell, because you haven't been able to solve our problems with your democracy and elections'," said Manna, who left Syria in 1978 as a political exile.


Some Iraqi Sunni Arab groups are boycotting the election, saying it cannot be free and fair because of the U.S. military presence and daily bloodshed in Sunni heartlands.


The prospect that majority Shi'ites and minority Kurds will dominate Iraq's first parliamentary election since Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) fell in April 2003 has fueled fears of communal strife.


"If the U.S. really sees the Iraqi elections as a step to usher in democracy, Arabs don't need it because it would be a leap into more bloodshed and chaos," said Mokhtar Trifi, head of Tunisia's only independent human rights group.


Many Arabs think elections held under U.S. occupation can only produce a government similar to the U.S.-backed interim government, which they view as an American puppet.

DEMOCRATIC CHARADES


"The elections depict democracy as if it is connected to the idea of submission to the American occupier," said Abdel Halim Qandil, who is campaigning against an extension of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak (news - web sites)'s 23-year-old rule.


"The idea of democracy will lose its reputation in the Arab world entirely," Qandil said, comparing the Iraqi election with 20th-century polls held in Egypt under British occupation. "Democratic charades of this type were going on then," he said.


Some Arab dissidents also say violence in Iraq has given Arab governments an excuse to deflect pressure from the Bush administration for democratic reform across the Middle East.


Egyptian civil rights activist Saadeddin Ibrahim said the chaos in Iraq had allowed the Egypt government to discredit the U.S. project at home. Cairo was also warning Washington that political reform in Egypt might unleash extremism.


Rights campaigners say U.S. abuse of Iraqi detainees at the Abu Ghraib jail near Baghdad had also put back the cause of human rights in Arab states accused of torturing prisoners.


Manaa, spokesman for the Arab Commission for Human Rights, said cases of torture in Arab jails had increased since the Abu Ghraib scandal. U.S. soldiers involved have faced court martial.


"Arab governments say: 'This is the reform carried out by the one who calls on us to reform,"' Manaa said.


Saudi academic Madawi al-Rasheed said the Abu Ghraib scandal coupled with air strikes on Falluja, which the U.S. military said was a stronghold for Sunni insurgents, had lost America the support of its natural Arab allies in pushing for democracy.

"The educated, liberal classes, they cannot possibly have positive views vis-a-vis America when these things are going on," she told Reuters from London.

But Rasheed said if democracy did take root in Iraq it would be an example to other Arabs, a view echoed by Shafiq Ghabra, president of the American University of Kuwait.

"Today there are few places in the Arab world where you can have this dynamic expression of ideas, lists, candidates," he said. (Additional reporting by Lamine Ghanmi in Tunis and Noora Kassem in Kuwait)

bkkcoh
01-28-2005, 11:31 AM
Any bad news for the US is good news for MEME :banghead:

memyselfI
01-28-2005, 11:34 AM
Any bad news for the US is good news for MEME :banghead:


Actually, I said this would be bad news months ago and it's still bad news now that it's happening.

True democratic Arab forces were cast aside by the US and thus likely have set back REAL democratic reform throughout the mid-East for the foreseeable future and beyond.

bkkcoh
01-28-2005, 11:37 AM
Actually, I said this would be bad news months ago and it's still bad news now that it's happening.

True democratic Arab forces were cast aside by the US and thus likely have set back REAL democratic reform throughout the mid-East for the foreseeable future and beyond.


I must have missed who the democratic Araba countries are, can you enlighten me?

mlyonsd
01-28-2005, 11:39 AM
The Iraqi people will determine if the elections are legitimate or not. Nobody else.

Donger
01-28-2005, 11:41 AM
As I understand it...

1. The Sunnis can vote, but they are choosing not to. Too bad for them.

2. I'm not sure I understand the issue of our military being there being an issue. Are our forces preventing certain people from voting, and making others do so? If not, then these people are FOS.

memyselfI
01-28-2005, 11:42 AM
I must have missed who the democratic Araba countries are, can you enlighten me?

MOVEMENTS.

You know like the forces we would hope take hold in Iran... :hmmm:

bkkcoh
01-28-2005, 11:44 AM
MOVEMENTS.

You know like the forces we would hope take hold in Iran... :hmmm:


So, by your response, you are saying there aren't any democratic Arab states!!!!

Aren't we the one's who are trying to move them that way.

:hmmm:

memyselfI
01-28-2005, 11:47 AM
So, by your response, you are saying there aren't any democratic Arab states!!!!

Aren't we the one's who are trying to move them that way.

:hmmm:

Yes, that is our stated intention (after the whole WMD thing didn't pan out...) but as I said BEFORE this became our stated intention that the way it's being done would alienate those forces trying to bring democracy to the region. Previous history showed the governments within the region will resist democracy within but the PEOPLE of the region with resist democracy being forced by forces from outside.

bkkcoh
01-28-2005, 11:52 AM
Yes, that is our stated intention (after the whole WMD thing didn't pan out...) but as I said BEFORE this became our stated intention that the way it's being done would alienate those forces trying to bring democracy to the region. Previous history showed the governments within the region will resist democracy within but the PEOPLE of the regioin with resist democracy being forced by forces from outside.

For those people in power, why would you want to give people who you control, the power to make decisions on their own.

It is very amazing to me how people latch onto the WMD argument that was listed in the reasons for removing SH from power. But they can't accept that the general purpose was positive to remove SH from power.

redbrian
01-28-2005, 11:53 AM
And in other news, this just in.

Iraqi Expatriates Begin Voting in U.S.

Updated 12:33 PM ET January 28, 2005

Joyful tears and frequent applause marked the start of U.S. voting Friday in Iraq's first independent elections in more than 50 years.

Security was tight at the abandoned store-turned-polling place in this Detroit suburb, with guards checking IDs at the parking lot entrance and using metal detectors at the doors. Inside, an oversized, homemade Iraqi flag hung from the ceiling. One poll worker could be seen weeping.

"We feel happy now. This is like America, this voting," said Zoha Yess, 64. "We want fair, good government."

Nearly 26,000 Iraqi expatriates registered beginning last week to vote here or in the other four U.S. polling places: Chicago, Nashville, Tenn., Los Angeles and Washington.

Adl Almusasarah, 30, traveled from Denver to Nashville, arriving at the polling site an hour early so he could be first in line.

"We pray for the election to go well," said Almusasarah, who has been in the United States for 12 years. "I wish well for all the parties for all the people in Iraq."



Ayad Barzani, 42 flew into Nashville from Dallas on Thursday night, casting his ballot early so he could get back to the restaurant he owns before the busiest night of the week.

"This is one of the happiest days of my life," said Barzani, who has been in the United States for about 25 years after his family fled Iraq because of a crackdown on Kurds. "This is one of the greatest days in Iraqi history. I'm very proud."

Barzani said he chose the Kurdish Party slate of candidates from the 111 choices on the paper ballot. Parties were listed by name, number and logo.

The expatriates here and in 13 other countries about 280,000 registered altogether were going to the makeshift polling stations to choose the 275-member assembly that will draft Iraq's new constitution. Overseas voting continues through Sunday, which is election day in Iraq itself.

Elsewhere, many voters in Iran, waiting to cast ballots at a Tehran mosque, said they came out of respect for Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, Iraq's top Shiite cleric, who has called voting a "religious duty."

"I am happier than on my wedding day," said Saja Verdi, 26, an unemployed mother of two. "We are going to a start a new life in Iraq after long years of oppression."

In London, voters and election officials clapped their hands and sang to celebrate the start of voting, and one staff member banged a water container like a drum.

"Today I feel that I am born again," said Darbaz Rasool, 23, a Kurd who fled Iraq in 1994.

Donger
01-28-2005, 11:55 AM
but the PEOPLE of the regioin with resist democracy being forced by forces from outside.

Who's forcing any of these people to vote?

Donger
01-28-2005, 11:56 AM
And in other news, this just in.

Iraqi Expatriates Begin Voting in U.S.

Updated 12:33 PM ET January 28, 2005

Joyful tears and frequent applause marked the start of U.S. voting Friday in Iraq's first independent elections in more than 50 years.

Security was tight at the abandoned store-turned-polling place in this Detroit suburb, with guards checking IDs at the parking lot entrance and using metal detectors at the doors. Inside, an oversized, homemade Iraqi flag hung from the ceiling. One poll worker could be seen weeping.

"We feel happy now. This is like America, this voting," said Zoha Yess, 64. "We want fair, good government."

Nearly 26,000 Iraqi expatriates registered beginning last week to vote here or in the other four U.S. polling places: Chicago, Nashville, Tenn., Los Angeles and Washington.

Adl Almusasarah, 30, traveled from Denver to Nashville, arriving at the polling site an hour early so he could be first in line.

"We pray for the election to go well," said Almusasarah, who has been in the United States for 12 years. "I wish well for all the parties for all the people in Iraq."



Ayad Barzani, 42 flew into Nashville from Dallas on Thursday night, casting his ballot early so he could get back to the restaurant he owns before the busiest night of the week.

"This is one of the happiest days of my life," said Barzani, who has been in the United States for about 25 years after his family fled Iraq because of a crackdown on Kurds. "This is one of the greatest days in Iraqi history. I'm very proud."

Barzani said he chose the Kurdish Party slate of candidates from the 111 choices on the paper ballot. Parties were listed by name, number and logo.

The expatriates here and in 13 other countries about 280,000 registered altogether were going to the makeshift polling stations to choose the 275-member assembly that will draft Iraq's new constitution. Overseas voting continues through Sunday, which is election day in Iraq itself.

Elsewhere, many voters in Iran, waiting to cast ballots at a Tehran mosque, said they came out of respect for Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, Iraq's top Shiite cleric, who has called voting a "religious duty."

"I am happier than on my wedding day," said Saja Verdi, 26, an unemployed mother of two. "We are going to a start a new life in Iraq after long years of oppression."

In London, voters and election officials clapped their hands and sang to celebrate the start of voting, and one staff member banged a water container like a drum.

"Today I feel that I am born again," said Darbaz Rasool, 23, a Kurd who fled Iraq in 1994.

Nice story. Thanks for posting it.

memyselfI
01-28-2005, 12:17 PM
For those people in power, why would you want to give people who you control, the power to make decisions on their own.

It is very amazing to me how people latch onto the WMD argument that was listed in the reasons for removing SH from power. But they can't accept that the general purpose was positive to remove SH from power.


Oh bugaboo. The 'democracy to Iraq' idea was an after thought contrived to cover up a major f*ck up. There is NO WAY in hell that most people would have supported the mission if that would have been the primary intention.

It's really quite clear to those outside of the US. I suppose we'll see if it's equally clear within those who are affected within Iraq.

Loki
01-28-2005, 12:24 PM
Oh bugaboo. The 'democracy to Iraq' idea was an after thought contrived to cover up a major f*ck up. There is NO WAY in hell that most people would have supported the mission if that would have been the primary intention.

It's really quite clear to those outside of the US. I suppose we'll see if it's equally clear within those who are affected within Iraq.

you can't HANDLE the truth...
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/colnathanjessep33.jpeg

Donger
01-28-2005, 12:27 PM
Who's forcing any of these people to vote?

No answer, eh, Denise?

bkkcoh
01-28-2005, 12:34 PM
Oh bugaboo. The 'democracy to Iraq' idea was an after thought contrived to cover up a major f*ck up. There is NO WAY in hell that most people would have supported the mission if that would have been the primary intention.

It's really quite clear to those outside of the US. I suppose we'll see if it's equally clear within those who are affected within Iraq.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1998/11/01/981101-in.htm" target="_blank">LINK</a>



On Oct 30, Radio Free Iraq began broadcasting. In an Oct 30 press
statement, David Newton, head of RFI, explained "that in addition to
local news about Iraq, programs will focus on democracy, free speech and human rights. 'Under the dictatorship of President Saddam Hussein,
people in Iraq never a chance to hear about these issues,' said Newton,
a former US ambassador to Iraq. He says broadcasts to Iraq will
eventually expand to six hours a day, airing in the Arabic as well as
Kurdish languages."

Yesterday, Clinton signed into law HR 4655, the "Iraq Liberation Act
of 1998." In a presidential statement, issued by the White House,
Clinton said, "This Act makes clear that it is the sense of the Congress that the United States should support those elements of the Iraqi opposition that advocate a very different future for Iraq than the bitter reality of internal repression and external aggression that the current regime in Baghdad now offers. . . .

It seems as if Bush and Co was just trying to follow the lead of BC! :hmmm: I thought that if Bush was following the lead of such a smart guy, he would have received some credit for it, afterall, BC didn't have the balls to do anything except lob a couple of missles over there....

memyselfI
01-28-2005, 12:39 PM
No answer, eh, Denise?

Supposedly no one. The vote hasn't happened yet so we'll see.

Donger
01-28-2005, 12:42 PM
Supposedly no one. The vote hasn't happened yet so we'll see.

I see. So, your crystal ball only sees what could be construed as bad news. There's a shocker.

but the PEOPLE of the regioin will resist democracy being forced by forces from outside.

Again, who exactly is forcing democracy on these people? Back it up, or retract the above.

redbrian
01-28-2005, 01:38 PM
Supposedly no one. The vote hasn't happened yet so we'll see.

The voting has already started. To much cheers in 14 countries.

Cochise
01-28-2005, 01:56 PM
I heard some lib squawking on the news this morning because not even 50% of voters were going to go to the polls.

I guess she objects to every election in the US in the past 50 years, too.

mlyonsd
01-28-2005, 02:16 PM
I heard some lib squawking on the news this morning because not even 50% of voters were going to go to the polls.

I guess she objects to every election in the US in the past 50 years, too.

No, just the last two.

memyselfI
01-28-2005, 03:09 PM
I see. So, your crystal ball only sees what could be construed as bad news. There's a shocker.



Again, who exactly is forcing democracy on these people? Back it up, or retract the above.

The 'force' is the occupation of a foreign country and a vote being held while being occupied.

Donger
01-28-2005, 03:17 PM
The 'force' is the occupation of a foreign country and a vote being held while being occupied.

If you really believe that, you're an idiot.

Yes, we are presently occupying their country.
Yes, we are giving them the opportunity to vote.
No one is being forced to vote, however. And, no is is being restricted from voting.

You add all that up and conclude that we are "forcing" democracy on the Iraqis?

Loki
01-28-2005, 03:26 PM
If you really believe that, you're an idiot.

Yes, we are presently occupying their country.
Yes, we are giving them the opportunity to vote.
No one is being forced to vote, however. And, no is is being restricted from voting.

You add all that up and conclude that we are "forcing" democracy on the Iraqis?

first of all has anyone tried to define what "movement(s)" means?


Democratic Arab movements see 'election' as a sham...


i can think of one type of "movement" to describe the arab world in
general...

Chief Henry
01-28-2005, 03:39 PM
Can you just imagine how gung ho DUHknees
would be for these elections had they been happening under Clinton?

beavis
01-28-2005, 03:43 PM
Oh bugaboo. The 'democracy to Iraq' idea was an after thought contrived to cover up a major f*ck up.
Oh give me a f*cking break. How many times did Bush mention the freeing of Iraq before the war started? Or did you just tune that out.

RINGLEADER
01-28-2005, 03:44 PM
Oh bugaboo. The 'democracy to Iraq' idea was an after thought contrived to cover up a major f*ck up. There is NO WAY in hell that most people would have supported the mission if that would have been the primary intention.

It's really quite clear to those outside of the US. I suppose we'll see if it's equally clear within those who are affected within Iraq.


Well, the liberal movement pretty much has nothing else it can do now except hope that democracy fails in Iraq, lest George W Bush and Republicans get the credit.

BTW, the "democracy to Iraq" idea was NOT an afterthought contrived to cover up a major f*ck up, as you say D-Nise. From George Bush's speech to the United Nations on September 12, 2002:

"If all these steps are taken, it will signal a new openness and accountability in Iraq and it could open the prospect of the United Nations helping to build a government that represents all Iraqis, a government based on respect for human rights, economic liberty and internationally supervised elections.

The United States has no quarrel with the Iraqi people. They've suffered too long in silent captivity. Liberty for the Iraqi people is a great moral cause and a great strategic goal.

The people of Iraq deserve it. The security of all nations requires it. Free societies do not intimidate through cruelty and conquest. And open societies do not threaten the world with mass murder. The United States supports political and economic liberty in a unified Iraq."

Once again, sorry to shake you out of the Fahrenheit 9/11-induced coma with the facts, but Bush made a variety of statements prior to the invasion about the reasons we were going in and WMDs were one of them (and only an invalid one if you ignore CIA intelligence, foreign intelligence, UN statements just weeks before the invasion, Saddam's own generals and history).

Donger
01-28-2005, 03:47 PM
"If all these steps are taken, it will signal a new openness and accountability in Iraq and it could open the prospect of the United Nations helping to build a government that represents all Iraqis, a government based on respect for human rights, economic liberty and internationally supervised elections.

The United States has no quarrel with the Iraqi people. They've suffered too long in silent captivity. Liberty for the Iraqi people is a great moral cause and a great strategic goal.

The people of Iraq deserve it. The security of all nations requires it. Free societies do not intimidate through cruelty and conquest. And open societies do not threaten the world with mass murder. The United States supports political and economic liberty in a unified Iraq."

Jeez, RL. Where's the "oops!!?"

RINGLEADER
01-28-2005, 04:13 PM
I also don't remember this clown criticisizing Saddam's election with 100% of the vote a couple years ago...You should do a little research on the guy supplying the conclusion reached in the title of this thread D-Nise.

Manna blames Israel not only for not reaching peace with Palestine (I seem to remember Arafat being the one who turned his back on that idea), but for causing the two wars that the Arabs launched against Israel (?!?!)...

Trifi is even more blunt, saying recently "We do not welcome US Secretary of State Colin Powell here because the US is occupying Iraq and continuing its support for Israel to kill Palestinians."

I guess that puts this thread in a new light, doesn't it D-Nise?

(This is when D-Nise disappears from her own discussion)

Loki
01-28-2005, 04:20 PM
...
I guess that puts this thread in a new light, doesn't it D-Nise?
(This is when D-Nise disappears from her own discussion)
...


chortle

redbrian
01-28-2005, 04:31 PM
(This is when D-Nise disappears from her own discussion)

I think she is out buying a minivan...........God only knows what she has planned for it's use.

stumppy
01-28-2005, 04:34 PM
I think she is out buying a minivan...........God only knows what she has planned for it's use.

She mentioned something about Tim Mcvey's handbook in another thread.:hmmm:

memyselfI
01-28-2005, 04:39 PM
I also don't remember this clown criticisizing Saddam's election with 100% of the vote a couple years ago...You should do a little research on the guy supplying the conclusion reached in the title of this thread D-Nise.

Manna blames Israel not only for not reaching peace with Palestine (I seem to remember Arafat being the one who turned his back on that idea), but for causing the two wars that the Arabs launched against Israel (?!?!)...

Trifi is even more blunt, saying recently "We do not welcome US Secretary of State Colin Powell here because the US is occupying Iraq and continuing its support for Israel to kill Palestinians."

I guess that puts this thread in a new light, doesn't it D-Nise?

(This is when D-Nise disappears from her own discussion)

Had kids to pick up from school...

no disappearing, sorry RL.

These people might have extreme views of Israel but their views of Iraq are quite mainstream in the Arab world, sorry RL.

memyselfI
01-28-2005, 04:42 PM
Well, the liberal movement pretty much has nothing else it can do now except hope that democracy fails in Iraq, lest George W Bush and Republicans get the credit.

BTW, the "democracy to Iraq" idea was NOT an afterthought contrived to cover up a major f*ck up, as you say D-Nise. From George Bush's speech to the United Nations on September 12, 2002:



Once again, sorry to shake you out of the Fahrenheit 9/11-induced coma with the facts, but Bush made a variety of statements prior to the invasion about the reasons we were going in and WMDs were one of them (and only an invalid one if you ignore CIA intelligence, foreign intelligence, UN statements just weeks before the invasion, Saddam's own generals and history).


Uh, saying the country deserves 'freedom' and 'democracy' and actually using this reason while taking the steps to make it happen are two different things. Again, this was not something sold/told to the American people or the world as reason for invasion until AFTER the fact.

RINGLEADER
01-28-2005, 04:50 PM
Had kids to pick up from school...

no disappearing, sorry RH.

These people might have extreme views of Israel but their views of Iraq are quite mainstream in the Arab world, sorry RH.


Who's RH?

As for having "mainstream" views in the Arab world, that doesn't make them right about democracy or equipped to comment on it.

Anyway, I don't thing there's much "might" about their views of the only functioning democracy in the area. I'm kind of surprised you'd hang your hat on "experts" from any region that can't distinguish between the validity of terrorist acts against Israelis and democracy.

memyselfI
01-28-2005, 04:55 PM
Who's RH?

As for having "mainstream" views in the Arab world, that doesn't make them right about democracy or equipped to comment on it.

Anyway, I don't thing there's much "might" about their views of the only functioning democracy in the area. I'm kind of surprised you'd hang your hat on "experts" from any region that can't distinguish between the validity of terrorist acts against Israelis and democracy.

LOL, sorry. RL. You are not RH, you've just been sounding like him lately. :p

I'm not hanging my hat on these 'experts.' I'm hanging my hat on people I know in/from the region, conservatives critical of DUHBya's policy in the region, blogs I've read, media I've read, heard, or seen, and what I know from the history.

Not much compared to blind faith, I know. :hmmm:

Donger
01-28-2005, 04:59 PM
Again, this was not something sold/told to the American people or the world as reason for invasion until AFTER the fact.

Again, you are wrong, either intentionally or not.

BIG_DADDY
01-28-2005, 05:00 PM
I remember saying months ago that this was going to be a problem. The US needs these folks on their side and not to be alienating them. :shake:



All we need to do is to crush the rebels and **** their women.

RINGLEADER
01-28-2005, 05:02 PM
Uh, saying the country deserves 'freedom' and 'democracy' and actually using this reason while taking the steps to make it happen are two different things. Again, this was not something sold/told to the American people or the world as reason for invasion until AFTER the fact.

Well, I was pointing out that what you said was wrong and what you wrote above is also wrong. The facts are pretty clear what was said and when it was said. Yes, WMDs were the key element of the argument, but they weren't the only one. And the argument about WMDs that was made was valid. He didn't lie about the threat. If you want to say he didn't challenge the CIA, foreign intelligence services, the UN, and history - all of which indicated Saddam was covering something up - then be my guest. But when you read that Saddam's generals believed Iraq had WMDs ready to use and you read the UN report showing that Saddam had not declared the disposition of enough anthrax to wipe out Manhattan and you read in the 9/11 report that Saddam had made overtures to Usama bin Laden it makes me question why and how Bush was supposed to know that he didn't have any of these weapons.

RINGLEADER
01-28-2005, 05:03 PM
All we need to do is to crush the rebels and **** their women.

That's the spirit!

bkkcoh
01-28-2005, 09:31 PM
If you really believe that, you're an idiot.

Yes, we are presently occupying their country.
Yes, we are giving them the opportunity to vote.
No one is being forced to vote, however. And, no is is being restricted from voting.

You add all that up and conclude that we are "forcing" democracy on the Iraqis?


I would be willing to anyone that the winner won't get 100% of the vote, like the last so called election in the country.....

:thumb:

Loki
01-31-2005, 11:11 AM
...
I'm not hanging my hat on these 'experts.' I'm hanging my hat on people I know in/from the region, conservatives critical of DUHBya's policy in the region, blogs I've read, media I've read, heard, or seen, and what I know from the history
...


:LOL:

good sources you got there...