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Dartgod
01-30-2005, 05:43 PM
I hope someone knows what's causing this.

I have Road Runner cable internet that runs to a Motorola wireless router. All the proper lights are lit on my cable modem and my home PC is connected via a LAN cable. After the computer sits idle for a long period (couple of hours or so) I lose my internet connection. Any web site I go to returns a DNS error. If I reboot, everything works fine. I'm pretty sure the problem is in the PC, but I can't figure it out.

Any of you fellow geeks have any ideas?

Mr. Laz
01-30-2005, 05:58 PM
sounds like a firewall of some kind with a automatic time lock of some kind.



you zone alarm or something running?

Dartgod
01-30-2005, 06:12 PM
sounds like a firewall of some kind with a automatic time lock of some kind.



you zone alarm or something running?
Yes, on the Zone Alarm. I've never had a problem before. Now that I think about it, it might have started when I added the wireless router a couple of months ago. I'm looking at the configuration now.

Firewall on router was enabled. I've disabled it. Maybe that was it?

Count Zarth
01-30-2005, 06:42 PM
If you have your wireless router set up correctly, you can ditch Zone Alarm. That's like having a wood door behind a wall of steel 6 inches thick.

Dartgod
01-31-2005, 10:06 AM
Still having the problem. I left my computer on all night and this morning could not browse the internet, get email, etc. If I try to ping a web site it comes back host not found. I recycleed my router and no help. I should have recycled the modem but didn't. I'll try that next time. Anyone else have any thoughts?

nmt1
01-31-2005, 10:11 AM
Still having the problem. I left my computer on all night and this morning could not browse the internet, get email, etc. If I try to ping a web site it comes back host not found. I recycleed my router and no help. I should have recycled the modem but didn't. I'll try that next time. Anyone else have any thoughts?

I would guess you could probably get away with just power cycling the router. Go to Motorola's site and see if they have a firmware update for the router. Also, check their support knowledgebase to see if anyone else is experiencing the problem. One other thing to try is unplug the router and plug the PC directly into the modem. You'll have to get the mac address re-registered with your ISP but it'll help you see if it's the router or modem. Probably not the PC.

Dartgod
01-31-2005, 11:23 AM
I would guess you could probably get away with just power cycling the router. Go to Motorola's site and see if they have a firmware update for the router. Also, check their support knowledgebase to see if anyone else is experiencing the problem. One other thing to try is unplug the router and plug the PC directly into the modem. You'll have to get the mac address re-registered with your ISP but it'll help you see if it's the router or modem. Probably not the PC.
Yeah, I'll have to try that stuff. I already thought about bypassing the router, but I didn't have enough time this morning. One problem is after moving the cable over, I have to power recycle the modem to clear the MAC address and reboot the PC , but rebooting fixes my problem. Then I have to wait another few hours for the problem to re-appear. :banghead:

Oh, and I already tried power recycling the router. It didn't help. I wish to hell I would have tried recycling the modem this morning.

Mr. Laz
01-31-2005, 11:55 AM
Yeah, I'll have to try that stuff. I already thought about bypassing the router, but I didn't have enough time this morning. One problem is after moving the cable over, I have to power recycle the modem to clear the MAC address and reboot the PC , but rebooting fixes my problem. Then I have to wait another few hours for the problem to re-appear. :banghead:

Oh, and I already tried power recycling the router. It didn't help. I wish to hell I would have tried recycling the modem this morning.

i suggest isolating the problem first


can you take the router outa of the loop and see if it still does it

uninstall zone alarm firewall program from you computer and see if it does it

did you install SP2? does the service pack firewall have a "timer" on it?



if all those things don't effect it, i would think it might be a bad modem



(imo still sounds like time lock firewall some place)

go bowe
01-31-2005, 12:15 PM
I hope someone knows what's causing this.

I have Road Runner cable internet that runs to a Motorola wireless router. All the proper lights are lit on my cable modem and my home PC is connected via a LAN cable. After the computer sits idle for a long period (couple of hours or so) I lose my internet connection. Any web site I go to returns a DNS error. If I reboot, everything works fine. I'm pretty sure the problem is in the PC, but I can't figure it out.

Any of you fellow geeks have any ideas? a really big hammer...

nmt1
01-31-2005, 05:55 PM
Yeah, I'll have to try that stuff. I already thought about bypassing the router, but I didn't have enough time this morning. One problem is after moving the cable over, I have to power recycle the modem to clear the MAC address and reboot the PC , but rebooting fixes my problem. Then I have to wait another few hours for the problem to re-appear. :banghead:

Oh, and I already tried power recycling the router. It didn't help. I wish to hell I would have tried recycling the modem this morning.

Well, I have to power cycle my cable modem every once in a while. My brother has to power cycle his almost every day. It's a pain for sure. I never had that problem when I had DSL.
If the problem comes back after you take the router out of the loop then I suggest trying another cable modem. If you're renting your modem from the cable company, call them and tell them to send you another one. If not, you'll have to plunk down some bucks I guess.
You could try a different NIC card in your PC but I really doubt that's the problem.

Dartgod
01-31-2005, 08:32 PM
Well, I have to power cycle my cable modem every once in a while. My brother has to power cycle his almost every day. It's a pain for sure. I never had that problem when I had DSL.
If the problem comes back after you take the router out of the loop then I suggest trying another cable modem. If you're renting your modem from the cable company, call them and tell them to send you another one. If not, you'll have to plunk down some bucks I guess.
You could try a different NIC card in your PC but I really doubt that's the problem.
Well, the router is out of the loop now. I'll know tomorrow morning if it that's it.

jspchief
01-31-2005, 09:24 PM
I have the same problem with my DSL router. At least once a day I have to restart my computer to get it to work again. I used to just be able to cycle the power on the unit, but that doesn't work anymore. This is the second one I've gotten from the company. It pisses me off, but I've learned to accept it as a part of life because I refuse to give my business to the alternate source for high speed.

Miles
01-31-2005, 09:40 PM
I have the exact same problem and i havent found a solution yet. It started after i added a wireless router. I have check all of the setting numerous time and cant find something that prevents it. I end up rebooting my computer once or twice a day. Definitly a pain in the ass.

Dartgod
02-01-2005, 05:25 AM
I have the exact same problem and i havent found a solution yet. It started after i added a wireless router. I have check all of the setting numerous time and cant find something that prevents it. I end up rebooting my computer once or twice a day. Definitly a pain in the ass.
Apparently it's the wireless router. I ran straight from the cable modem to the PC and left it on all night and its still working this morning.

Thanks for all the tips. Now I've just got to find out why the router is doing this. Firmware upgrade or configuration settings I suupose. :shrug:

nmt1
02-01-2005, 06:01 AM
Apparently it's the wireless router. I ran straight from the cable modem to the PC and left it on all night and its still working this morning.

Thanks for all the tips. Now I've just got to find out why the router is doing this. Firmware upgrade or configuration settings I suupose. :shrug:

Check to see if it's under warranty. If so, get them to send you a new one. If not, upgrade firmware. Send their tech support an email about the problem. It may take them a while to get back to you but they usually do eventually.

nmt1
02-01-2005, 06:04 AM
Apparently it's the wireless router. I ran straight from the cable modem to the PC and left it on all night and its still working this morning.

Thanks for all the tips. Now I've just got to find out why the router is doing this. Firmware upgrade or configuration settings I suupose. :shrug:

You might check this out.

Motorola.com (http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/support/default.asp?SupportSection=HomeNetworking)

Dartgod
02-02-2005, 07:55 AM
You might check this out.

Motorola.com (http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/support/default.asp?SupportSection=HomeNetworking)
I upgraded the firmware last night but still having same problem. Power resetting the modem didn't help either. I honestly don't see any settings on the router that would cause this. Next step is to contact Motorola.

nmt1
02-02-2005, 08:42 AM
I upgraded the firmware last night but still having same problem. Power resetting the modem didn't help either. I honestly don't see any settings on the router that would cause this. Next step is to contact Motorola.

Yeah, I think that's your best bet. Did you find out if it's still under warranty?

Dartgod
02-02-2005, 08:50 AM
Yeah, I think that's your best bet. Did you find out if it's still under warranty?
Their site says 90 day, but I'm not sure when I bought it. Probably less than 90 day though. I think I'll take it back to Walmart and see if I can get them to exchange it.

HC_Chief
02-02-2005, 09:59 AM
Sounds to me like your DHCP lease is expiring and your system is not renewing.

Before calling tech support, try resetting your DHCP lease.

From the command line type: ipconfig /release

Allow it to complete, then type: ipfonfig /renew

Again, allow it to complete. If you don't get an error, try browsing. If that works, report back and we'll walk through next steps.

nmt1
02-02-2005, 10:33 AM
Sounds to me like your DHCP lease is expiring and your system is not renewing.

Before calling tech support, try resetting your DHCP lease.

From the command line type: ipconfig /release

Allow it to complete, then type: ipfonfig /renew

Again, allow it to complete. If you don't get an error, try browsing. If that works, report back and we'll walk through next steps.

Would the lease expire even if the PC was connected and turned on?

HC_Chief
02-02-2005, 10:38 AM
Would the lease expire even if the PC was connected and turned on?

Yep.

Dartgod
02-02-2005, 10:47 AM
Yep.
In a matter of hours? I see what you're saying. But I don't think that's the problem. I checked and the PC is getting a valid IP address from the router. And at some point while I've been trying to troubleshoot this, I reset the router to the factory defaults. Also I can ping the modem, yet still can't get to the internet. The problem seems to be that DNS is quits working.

HC_Chief
02-02-2005, 10:50 AM
In a matter of hours? I see what you're saying. But I don't think that's the problem. I checked and the PC is getting a valid IP address from the router. And at some point while I've been trying to troubleshoot this, I reset the router to the factory defaults. Also I can ping the modem, yet still can't get to the internet. The problem seems to be that DNS is quits working.

Your DNS values are set in your DHCP lease.

If you can ping your router, but can't go out on the internet, then it may be the lease from the ISP. Do you have your modem behind a firewall?

Dartgod
02-02-2005, 11:01 AM
Your DNS values are set in your DHCP lease.

If you can ping your router, but can't go out on the internet, then it may be the lease from the ISP. Do you have your modem behind a firewall?
No. I just have Zone Alarm.

And I did not experience the same problem when connecting the PC directly to the modem. Only when the wireless router is in the loop do I have a problem.

Another thing. When I am unable to browse the internet, I go to the configuration utility for the router and the ISP's DNS addresses are correctly listed. But if I run an ipconfig /all command, it shows the router address in the DNS entries. I think this has something to do with it, but cannot find out where to change in the configuration.

Here is a link to the user manual for the router, maybe someone can see where the problem might be.

http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/products/WR850g/downloads/WR850G_userguide.pdf

HC_Chief
02-02-2005, 11:20 AM
Another thing. When I am unable to browse the internet, I go to the configuration utility for the router and the ISP's DNS addresses are correctly listed. But if I run an ipconfig /all command, it shows the router address in the DNS entries.

The router IP should be the gateway address on your PC(s). It is fine for it to be the DNS address as well, as it will simply pass the DNS requests to the modem (port 53). At least, it should.

Your router should be configured to accept DHCP leases on the WAN side, and you should configure a non-routable address on the LAN side (it should already do this by default... probably a 192.168.x.x address).

If your IP address on your PC(s) is still valid, ie you can ping the LAN-side address of your router, then look at your router's WAN-side configuration. That's your problem. If your router includes a firewall, ensure port 53 requests to the internet (your modem) are not blocked.

Miles
02-02-2005, 12:03 PM
Sounds to me like your DHCP lease is expiring and your system is not renewing.

Before calling tech support, try resetting your DHCP lease.

From the command line type: ipconfig /release

Allow it to complete, then type: ipfonfig /renew

Again, allow it to complete. If you don't get an error, try browsing. If that works, report back and we'll walk through next steps.

Sweet those commands worked for me. What do i need to do permanently fix this?

Dartgod
02-02-2005, 05:50 PM
Interesting development.

When I came home tonight, it still wasn't working. Tried releasing/renewing the IP address to no avail. I was playing around with some of the config settings on the router and there is a setting to clone the MAC address of the PC. I enabled this setting and it didn't make any difference. But when disabled it again, *boom* I can browse the internet now. So, WTF?

nmt1
02-03-2005, 05:30 AM
Interesting development.

When I came home tonight, it still wasn't working. Tried releasing/renewing the IP address to no avail. I was playing around with some of the config settings on the router and there is a setting to clone the MAC address of the PC. I enabled this setting and it didn't make any difference. But when disabled it again, *boom* I can browse the internet now. So, WTF?

That is interesting. Try enabling again and putting the mac address of your PC's nic card in there.

Dartgod
02-03-2005, 06:40 AM
Try enabling again and putting the mac address of your PC's nic card in there.
That's is the address I put in. I did it again this morning.

- Internet not working
- Enabled cloning MAC address of PC
- Internet still not working
- Disabled cloning
- Voila! Internet works

This process is faster than rebooting, but I still don't understand what's going on.

nmt1
02-03-2005, 09:16 AM
Yeah, that is strange. I think it points to something being out of whack with the router though. Did you contact Motorola yet?

HC_Chief
02-03-2005, 09:29 AM
Check with your ISP... they may be logging MAC addresses to insure you are putting only ONE system on the internet, per terms of your service agreement.

I know some ISPs do that.

You do not need to clone your PC's MAC address unless that's the address they have on file as the permitted address.

Dartgod
02-03-2005, 09:32 AM
Yeah, that is strange. I think it points to something being out of whack with the router though. Did you contact Motorola yet?
No, not yet. I'm going to try to exchange it at Walmart first.

Dartgod
02-03-2005, 09:33 AM
Check with your ISP... they may be logging MAC addresses to insure you are putting only ONE system on the internet, per terms of your service agreement.

I know some ISPs do that.

You do not need to clone your PC's MAC address unless that's the address they have on file as the permitted address.
I've thought about that. I wonder if cloning the modem address might help.

HC_Chief
02-03-2005, 09:38 AM
I've thought about that. I wonder if cloning the modem address might help.

Shouldn't have to. Unless, again, the ISP has some sort of MAC tracing enabled. Give them a call and see. I know when I was on Communistcast, they traced MAC addies, so I had to clone.

TWC doesn't... plus my service is 100% up and running at 5Mbps :D

Dartgod
02-03-2005, 09:54 AM
Shouldn't have to. Unless, again, the ISP has some sort of MAC tracing enabled. Give them a call and see. I know when I was on Communistcast, they traced MAC addies, so I had to clone.

TWC doesn't... plus my service is 100% up and running at 5Mbps :D
I've got Time Warner (Roadrunner) also. I think I'll swap the router out and if I still have the same issue, call Motorola.

nmt1
02-08-2005, 11:11 AM
I've got Time Warner (Roadrunner) also. I think I'll swap the router out and if I still have the same issue, call Motorola.

Any update on the problem?

Dartgod
02-08-2005, 11:40 AM
Any update on the problem?
Last night it was acting up so I hardcoded the DNS addresses on my NIC card TCP/IP properties. This morning it worked fine although Outlook had some problems connecting to my mail server initially. I got errors that it couldn't connect, but I hit Send/Receive again and it downloaded the mail just fine. I left the PC on all day so I'll see if it still connects ok when I get home.

chiefz
02-09-2005, 02:14 PM
Essentially the WAN side (cable) will now pickup the DHCP address which used to be directed to your PC and the LAN side will be assigned an internal private address that will either perform NAT if you have multiple public IPs or PAT (most likely).

Sound to me like an arp cache problem on return traffic.

I can't see any other reason why you router would stop passing traffic to your PC but start again once the machince is reset or when you enable, then disable the MAC cloning option.

Basically when you do either of these things the CAM table of the switch is clear along with any arp entries associated with those MAC addresses.

The problem has to reside somewhere at the MAC/LLC layer (layer 2 of the OSI model) or on some layer offering support to both layer 2 and 3 like ARP.

Just out of curiousity, is there a setting in your router to clear the arp cache?

chiefz
02-09-2005, 02:20 PM
Last night it was acting up so I hardcoded the DNS addresses on my NIC card TCP/IP properties. This morning it worked fine although Outlook had some problems connecting to my mail server initially. I got errors that it couldn't connect, but I hit Send/Receive again and it downloaded the mail just fine. I left the PC on all day so I'll see if it still connects ok when I get home.

Also, check your BIOS for a setting called "Wake On LAN" and make sure that anything associated with the LAN functionality of your machine is disabled as far as power management is concerned.

What could be happening is that when you plug your machine directly into the cable it is on what is called a broadcast domain with all other machinces that share an IP address in your subnet mask range.

In other words it will hear broadcasts from other machines within its own network pretty well all of the time causing the NIC (network interface card) to never be able to go into sleep mode (if wake on LAN is enabled).

Now when you plug it in with a router in the middle it changes things.

Suddenly the public interface of your router in on that broadcast domain an you are on your own.

Routers will not forward broadcasts by default and eventually any TCP connections you had will timeout with no activity over a period of time.

With no traffic being received the NIC will shut itself down (sleep mode) if wake on LAN is enabled and will not come back up until new traffic is received.

Generally I always disable it because I have found that it rarely works like it is supposed.

Note: Most machines these days are Energy Star compliant and wake on LAN is enabled by default.

It might not be your issue but I have seen similar things happen before.

Dartgod
02-20-2005, 09:15 PM
Update: I upgraded to the latest version of ZoneAlarm and the problem seems to have gone away. The PC has been on for 4 days straight without a reboot and the internet works everytime I've tried it. Thanks to all of you for your advice.