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View Full Version : The Iraq vote in possible historical context


memyselfI
01-31-2005, 08:19 AM
Not to put a damper on the enthusiasm of those ready to call this a done deal...

also not to bring up the controversial parallels to Vietnam. Rather just to remind folks that things are not always what they initially seem.


U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote (NYT 9/4/1967)

U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote :
Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror

by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967: p. 2)

WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting.

According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong.

The size of the popular vote and the inability of the Vietcong to destroy the election machinery were the two salient facts in a preliminary assessment of the nation election based on the incomplete returns reaching here.

Pending more detailed reports, neither the State Department nor the White House would comment on the balloting or the victory of the military candidates, Lieut. Gen. Nguyen Van Thieu, who was running for president, and Premier Nguyen Cao Ky, the candidate for vice president.

A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson's policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam. The election was the culmination of a constitutional development that began in January, 1966, to which President Johnson gave his personal commitment when he met Premier Ky and General Thieu, the chief of state, in Honolulu in February.

The purpose of the voting was to give legitimacy to the Saigon Government, which has been founded only on coups and power plays since November, 1963, when President Ngo Dinh Deim was overthrown by a military junta.

Few members of that junta are still around, most having been ousted or exiled in subsequent shifts of power.

Significance Not Diminished

The fact that the backing of the electorate has gone to the generals who have been ruling South Vietnam for the last two years does not, in the Administration's view, diminish the significance of the constitutional step that has been taken.

The hope here is that the new government will be able to maneuver with a confidence and legitimacy long lacking in South Vietnamese politics. That hope could have been dashed either by a small turnout, indicating widespread scorn or a lack of interest in constitutional development, or by the Vietcong's disruption of the balloting.

American officials had hoped for an 80 per cent turnout. That was the figure in the election in September for the Constituent Assembly. Seventy-eight per cent of the registered voters went to the polls in elections for local officials last spring.

Before the results of the presidential election started to come in, the American officials warned that the turnout might be less than 80 per cent because the polling place would be open for two or three hours less than in the election a year ago. The turnout of 83 per cent was a welcome surprise. The turnout in the 1964 United States Presidential election was 62 per cent.

Captured documents and interrogations indicated in the last week a serious concern among Vietcong leaders that a major effort would be required to render the election meaningless. This effort has not succeeded, judging from the reports from Saigon.

NYT. 9/4/1967: p. 2.

mlyonsd
01-31-2005, 08:22 AM
One huge difference is the Viet cong were repopluating their military ranks at a number of about 300,000 per year.

Apples, meet oranges.

memyselfI
01-31-2005, 08:28 AM
One huge difference is the Viet cong were repopluating their military ranks at a number of about 300,000 per year.

Apples, meet oranges.

O-Kay. :spock:

LamarR Huunt
01-31-2005, 08:32 AM
O-Kay. :spock:

Translation: "I'm too dumb to see the difference."

memyselfI
01-31-2005, 08:33 AM
Translation: "I'm too dumb to see the difference."

Oh, I see the difference and he has a point...

but so do I. The mere holding of a 'successful election' does not automatically equate to a desired end result.

BroWhippendiddle
01-31-2005, 08:33 AM
Not to put a damper on the enthusiasm of those ready to call this a done deal...

also not to bring up the controversial parallels to Vietnam. Rather just to remind folks that things are not always what they initially seem.



You are right. The first time you posted most people thought you were just another Chiefs fan. Now we all see that you are nothing more than a LWDB that refuses to see a positive in relation to anything regarding the republican party.

The worst thing that I can see is that you are raising your offspring to believe something that is not true, you are brainwashing them into believing in the way you think and feel. They will not even have the opportunity to make informed opinions about anything regarding politics as their minds will have been poisoned by your hate.

Truly a shame!

memyselfI
01-31-2005, 08:38 AM
You are right. The first time you posted most people thought you were just another Chiefs fan. Now we all see that you are nothing more than a LWDB that refuses to see a positive in relation to anything regarding the republican party.

The worst thing that I can see is that you are raising your offspring to believe something that is not true, you are brainwashing them into believing in the way you think and feel. They will not even have the opportunity to make informed opinions about anything regarding politics as their minds will have been poisoned by your hate.

Truly a shame!

oh bull shit.

The 'worst' thing bringing up painful history from the past does is remind us NOT to jump to any premature conclusions and to learn from OUR previous mistakes. If this bursts your bubble...

too damn bad.

Chief Henry
01-31-2005, 08:52 AM
Hey BRO,

She's won of the pissed off LWNJ over the last several elections. She's been in complete denile
and spin for years.

Now that President Bush is proven to be RIGHT AGAIN, she just can't stand that this "dumb" country bumkin from Texas is proving her wrong
AGAIN.

Cochise
01-31-2005, 08:57 AM
Why don't you ask your boy LBJ why they couldn't make it work? This time we are actually committed to getting the job done, instead of appeasing some quacks back at home.

The fact remains that if people like Duhnise, Kerry, or Kennedy were in charge, this day would have never happened.

memyselfI
01-31-2005, 09:02 AM
Why don't you ask your boy LBJ why they couldn't make it work? This time we are actually committed to getting the job done, instead of appeasing some quacks back at home.

The fact remains that if people like Duhnise, Kerry, or Kennedy were in charge, this day would have never happened.

Yeah, at the time of this 'election' the US public had no idea they'd be 'committed' almost another ten years and 10 of thousands more dead soldiers.

Again, let's see how the after election scenarios play out before we decide the mere ACT of voting equates to a successful democracy.

Cochise
01-31-2005, 09:05 AM
Yeah, at the time of this 'election' the US public had no idea they'd be 'committed' almost another ten years and 10 of thousands more dead soldiers.

Again, let's see how the after election scenarios play out before we decide the mere ACT of voting equates to a successful democracy.

No one said that. I just pointed out your pathetic attempt to paint Bush with the failings of Johnson.

But, we all know if you'd had your way, none of this would had happened and that Iraq would still a totalitarian regime with Hussein in power today.

memyselfI
01-31-2005, 09:06 AM
No one said that. I just pointed out your pathetic attempt to paint Bush with the failings of Johnson.

But, we all know if you'd had your way, none of this would had happened and that Iraq would still a totalitarian regime with Hussein in power today.

I'm not painting DUHbya with anything.

I'm merely pointing out that the WH/pro-war rhetoric post the Vietnam vote was nearly identical to what we are hearing NOW. And the end result was quite different from what we anticipated that vote actually would bring.

Joe Seahawk
01-31-2005, 09:14 AM
I'm not painting DUHbya with anything.

I'm merely pointing out that the WH/pro-war rhetoric post the Vietnam vote was nearly identical to what we are hearing NOW. And the end result was quite different from what we anticipated that vote actually would bring.

Weel Geez Denise, maybe if you're lucky it will work out just as bad in Iraq..

We all know thats what you would like to see..

HC_Chief
01-31-2005, 09:16 AM
moron

memyselfI
01-31-2005, 09:19 AM
Weel Geez Denise, maybe if you're lucky it will work out just as bad in Iraq..

We all know thats what you would like to see..

Untrue. To AVOID previous history is what I would like to see. That is why it is sooooooo important we keep this election (done under the occupation and supervision of the largest superpower in the history of the world) in context.

There are few people who believe the post-election process will be a success without security in the country. And simply having a secure election does not mean the country is secure...

the only reason the election happened was because of a complete lockdown of the country. That level of security is impossible to maintain and in the end does not advance freedom.

Chief Henry
01-31-2005, 09:22 AM
Weel Geez Denise, maybe if you're lucky it will work out just as bad in Iraq..

We all know thats what you would like to see..


ITs really hard to beleave that thats exactly what she wants. :shake:
How sad is that?

Chief Henry
01-31-2005, 09:34 AM
the only reason the election happened was because of a complete lockdown of the country. That level of security is impossible to maintain and in the end does not advance freedom.


To think, the Iraqi election would not have happen'd had AL Gore
been elected. Imagine that :hmmm:

Warrior5
01-31-2005, 09:47 AM
You are right Denise; there are some striking parallels between what happened then and what just happened...definitely a lot of lessons-learned for the administration to analyze.

"Not to put a damper on the enthusiasm of those ready to call this a done deal..."

This is where I fail to see the connection. While many probably thought it was a "done deal" back then, I haven't heard any pundit, nor any Planeteer, claim that this historic election was anything but a crucial first step. On the contrary, even the most positive rhetoric has been couched in cautious optimism.

Who claimed this is a "done deal"?

Radar Chief
01-31-2005, 10:02 AM
Who claimed this is a "done deal"?

Denise is of course. Without first claiming, “done deal” she’s got less footing to biatch. Just like claiming that “end of major combat operations” meant, “pack everything up and head home” to her, despite what was actually said by the POTUS at the time.

BroWhippendiddle
01-31-2005, 10:07 AM
oh bull shit.

The 'worst' thing bringing up painful history from the past does is remind us NOT to jump to any premature conclusions and to learn from OUR previous mistakes. If this bursts your bubble...

too damn bad.

In America we are loaded with freedoms that others do not have.

It is a shame that someone like you can prevert historic events in the eyes of innocent children!

Donger
01-31-2005, 10:09 AM
Something tells me that Denise is the type of person that after giving her kids Christmas presents, berates them for 30 minutes about how some people in the world don't have anything.

Anything even remotely positive that comes to fruition during this administration is immediately thrown to the "but" section for denigration and negative speculation.

It truly is sad that this person is so enamored with her own particular brand of partisan hatred that she can't celebrate, even for a few minutes, people finally getting a say in their own future.

Screw her and all those like her.

Donger
01-31-2005, 10:11 AM
the only reason the election happened was because of a complete lockdown of the country.

Wrong.

As wrong as your assertion that the USA is "forcing democracy" on the Iraqis.

BroWhippendiddle
01-31-2005, 10:13 AM
Yeah, at the time of this 'election' the US public had no idea they'd be 'committed' almost another ten years and 10 of thousands more dead soldiers.

Again, let's see how the after election scenarios play out before we decide the mere ACT of voting equates to a successful democracy.

Are you speaking of LBJ? When he took office we were in Vietnam and he escalated the war beyond belief.

What is your base of reference that we will be in Iraq for another 10 years? That is pure stupidity on your part. The nation would never stand for that.

In any case, the fact that an election has been held and the people of the country, 60% of registered voters, are very vocal about how they feel about the election. They voted and not for Saddam and they didn't die!!!

Get off your soapbox and take a look at reality for a change!

SBK
01-31-2005, 10:14 AM
Wrong.

As wrong as your assertion that the USA is "forcing democracy" on the Iraqis.

Im waiting for some kook link from her that says "US SOLDIERS HOLD GUNS TO POOR INNOCENT IRAQIS FORCING THEM TO VOTE."
also,
"EVEN AFTER ELECTION FOOD STAMPS AND GOV'T HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS NOT IN PLACE IN IRAQ YET."

SBK
01-31-2005, 10:20 AM
I think this is another example of a lib trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

beavis
01-31-2005, 11:18 AM
Wrong.

As wrong as your assertion that the USA is "forcing democracy" on the Iraqis.
They sure look liked they were hating it, didn't they?

BroWhippendiddle
01-31-2005, 11:42 AM
Something tells me that Denise is the type of person that after giving her kids Christmas presents, berates them for 30 minutes about how some people in the world don't have anything.

Anything even remotely positive that comes to fruition during this administration is immediately thrown to the "but" section for denigration and negative speculation.

It truly is sad that this person is so enamored with her own particular brand of partisan hatred that she can't celebrate, even for a few minutes, people finally getting a say in their own future.

Screw her and all those like her.

If she is truly a muslim as she professes, there is no Christmas!!!

go bowe
01-31-2005, 11:56 AM
If she is truly a muslim as she professes, there is no Christmas!!!is she a muslim?

i thought she was married to an iranian or some such middle eastern guy, but did she convert?

i thought i saw where she had been to church yesterday, not the mosque...

but, regardless of her religious affiliation, any parallels between voting in viet nam and voting in iraq are misplaced, imo...

viet nam was being run by a corrupt military junta and was opposed not just by an insurgency, but by an entire country (remember north viet nam?) which was supplied and armed by a super power...

sorry denise, while it might be true that elections don't necessarily translate into a functioning democracy, there are no legitimate parallels to the situation we faced in viet nam...

go bowe
01-31-2005, 12:00 PM
They sure look liked they were hating it, didn't they?every pic i've seen, on all flavors of the media, shows iraq voters proudly holding up their purple fingers...

while there may be some who opposed the election or were too intimidated (in the sunni areas) to vote, it seems like almost all who did vote were damned glad about it and very hopeful for the chance at self-governance...

kudos to the iraqi people... :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:

BroWhippendiddle
01-31-2005, 01:32 PM
is she a muslim?

i thought she was married to an iranian or some such middle eastern guy, but did she convert?

i thought i saw where she had been to church yesterday, not the mosque...

but, regardless of her religious affiliation, any parallels between voting in viet nam and voting in iraq are misplaced, imo...

viet nam was being run by a corrupt military junta and was opposed not just by an insurgency, but by an entire country (remember north viet nam?) which was supplied and armed by a super power...

sorry denise, while it might be true that elections don't necessarily translate into a functioning democracy, there are no legitimate parallels to the situation we faced in viet nam...

I think I've seen her post both ways. Her inconsistancy only proves her lack of ethics.

memyselfI
01-31-2005, 01:33 PM
is she a muslim?

i thought she was married to an iranian or some such middle eastern guy, but did she convert?

i thought i saw where she had been to church yesterday, not the mosque...

but, regardless of her religious affiliation, any parallels between voting in viet nam and voting in iraq are misplaced, imo...

viet nam was being run by a corrupt military junta and was opposed not just by an insurgency, but by an entire country (remember north viet nam?) which was supplied and armed by a super power...

sorry denise, while it might be true that elections don't necessarily translate into a functioning democracy, there are no legitimate parallels to the situation we faced in viet nam...


No, I'm not Muslim and neither is my husband. That is just a prejudicial remark hurled my way when I have something to say that seems to go against US policy in the Middle East. :rolleyes:

As far as 'parallels with Vietnam', again the post was not to raise the controversial comparison but only to remind folks a vote doesn't ensure jack shit...

BroWhippendiddle
01-31-2005, 01:35 PM
No, I'm not Muslim and neither is my husband. That is just a prejudicial remark hurled my way when I have something to say that seems to go against US policy in the Middle East. :rolleyes:

Your firm support of the Muslim ways and your belief that they were justified in their attacks speaks volumns. And you did in the past say that you followed the Muslim belief.

memyselfI
01-31-2005, 01:37 PM
Your firm support of the Muslim ways and your belief that they were justified in their attacks speaks volumns. And you did in the past say that you followed the Muslim belief.

I have not stated I followed 'Muslim belief'.

And I have no 'firm support of Muslim ways'. I have major disagreements with US policies with countries in the region but that is FAR AND AWAY DIFFERENT than supporting or practicing Islam or being a Muslim.
:rolleyes: :cuss:

Bootlegged
01-31-2005, 01:40 PM
Memyasshair must love that her kind keeps losing elections. What would she/it do with her/its pathetic life if she didn't bitch all day?

As long as dems stay out of power, memyasshair has a reason to roll her hairyass out of her cave each morning.

BroWhippendiddle
01-31-2005, 01:43 PM
Memyasshair must love that her kind keeps losing elections. What would she/it do with her/its pathetic life if she didn't bitch all day?

As long as dems stay out of power, memyasshair has a reason to roll her hairyass out of her cave each morning.

You have just laid a tremendous insult on all of the hairyassed women that live in caves!!

Think of it, a Muslim cave dweller named Memyashairi? Sounds alot like Duhnese doesn't it!!!

BroWhippendiddle
01-31-2005, 01:44 PM
I have not stated I followed 'Muslim belief'.

And I have no 'firm support of Muslim ways'. I have major disagreements with US policies with countries in the region but that is FAR AND AWAY DIFFERENT than supporting or practicing Islam or being a Muslim.
:rolleyes: :cuss:

I'm old and my memory isn't what it once was, but you have made those comments and on more than one occasion. It goes all the way back to the KC Star board.

memyselfI
01-31-2005, 01:49 PM
I'm old and my memory isn't what it once was, but you have made those comments and on more than one occasion. It goes all the way back to the KC Star board.

You are insane.

My husband is a 'recovered' Muslim, me a 'recovered' Catholic. At no time have we ever or will we ever practice either religion in our home. We feel we were lucky to have escaped from BOTH cults.

SBK
01-31-2005, 07:27 PM
You are insane.

My husband is a 'recovered' Muslim, me a 'recovered' Catholic. At no time have we ever or will we ever practice either religion in our home. We feel we were lucky to have escaped from BOTH cults.

Now you just practice the democratic cult huh?

Joe Seahawk
01-31-2005, 07:45 PM
You are insane.

My husband is a 'recovered' Muslim, me a 'recovered' Catholic. At no time have we ever or will we ever practice either religion in our home. We feel we were lucky to have escaped from BOTH cults.


I'm a 'recovered' democrat. Thank goodness!

memyselfI
01-31-2005, 09:12 PM
Now you just practice the democratic cult huh?


Yeah, it was the lesser of the two political evils... :p

KCWolfman
01-31-2005, 09:34 PM
I have heard tale that the French, US, and British were all as pessimistic as Duhnise after their first votes as well. After all, look how poorly it turned out for those nations.

SBK
01-31-2005, 09:34 PM
Yeah, it was the lesser of the two political evils... :p
Less.....haha, that's funny. The party of KKK, rapists as presidents and admitted war criminal in the senate, as well as a murderer representing same state. That's great! ROFL

memyselfI
01-31-2005, 10:08 PM
Less.....haha, that's funny. The party of KKK, rapists as presidents and admitted war criminal in the senate, as well as a murderer representing same state. That's great! ROFL

I guess only one party can have HIM. ROFL ROFL ROFL

http://www.u-r-next.com/bushJC.jpg

Iowanian
01-31-2005, 10:12 PM
Dense lays another Cable on the planet

KCWolfman
01-31-2005, 10:16 PM
Dense lays another Cable on the planet
I especially like the "I am not saying this because I want to compare this to Vietnam, but I am comparing this to Vietnam".

Funny, I see comparisons as well, especially by supposed "do gooders" despising our military and those who serve in it with thinly guised words of good intentions for the individuals.

memyselfI
02-01-2005, 07:30 AM
Here ya go, jAZ,

the similiar nature of the hoopla surrounding a US sponsored war time vote having a prior history has already been dismissed by the usual suspects. :hmmm:

Radar Chief
02-01-2005, 07:37 AM
Here ya go, jAZ,

the similiar nature of the hoopla surrounding a US sponsored war time vote having a prior history has already been dismissed by the usual suspects. :hmmm:

Just like the same people are here trying to claim Iraq=Vietnam=quagmire, despite all the differences that’ve been pointed out. :hmmm:
If it weren’t so idiotic it’d be semi-comical, as it is it’s just sad. :shake:

Iowanian
02-01-2005, 08:13 AM
Dense probably thinks her opinion is more realistic and deserving to be heard than this woman's.....but what would she know...she probably didn't even read Dense's suggested websites.

Woman Loses Dad, Husband in Iraq
Tuesday, February 01, 2005

World Hears Freedom's Voice
Less than a year ago, Tabitha Bonilla's father gave his life for his country in Iraq. Last week, her husband gave his, too.

Army Capt. Orlando A. Bonilla (search), 27, of Killeen, Texas, was killed Friday in a helicopter accident in Baghdad. Her father, Army Sgt. 1st Class Henry A. Bacon (search), 45, died last February in a vehicle accident.

Through tears and long pauses, Orlando Bonilla's wife — and Henry Bacon's daughter — tried to "do justice," as she put it, to the two most important men in her life.

[/b]"I stand behind my daddy and my husband, and I stand behind the job they had to do, and that's my take on it," she said. "I just support them, regardless of who sent them over there and why they sent them over there, no matter whether it's for right or wrong reasons."[/b]

memyselfI
02-01-2005, 08:35 AM
Dense probably thinks her opinion is more realistic and deserving to be heard than this woman's.....but what would she know...she probably didn't even read Dense's suggested websites.

Woman Loses Dad, Husband in Iraq
Tuesday, February 01, 2005

World Hears Freedom's Voice
Less than a year ago, Tabitha Bonilla's father gave his life for his country in Iraq. Last week, her husband gave his, too.

Army Capt. Orlando A. Bonilla (search), 27, of Killeen, Texas, was killed Friday in a helicopter accident in Baghdad. Her father, Army Sgt. 1st Class Henry A. Bacon (search), 45, died last February in a vehicle accident.

Through tears and long pauses, Orlando Bonilla's wife — and Henry Bacon's daughter — tried to "do justice," as she put it, to the two most important men in her life.

[/b]"I stand behind my daddy and my husband, and I stand behind the job they had to do, and that's my take on it," she said. "I just support them, regardless of who sent them over there and why they sent them over there, no matter whether it's for right or wrong reasons."[/b]

I read this on Yahoo yesterday. Tragic. I hope for her sake, and those like her, their loss is not in vain and holding an election and the act of voting does not answer that question.

Cochise
02-01-2005, 09:04 AM
I especially like the "I am not saying this because I want to compare this to Vietnam, but I am comparing this to Vietnam".

Funny, I see comparisons as well, especially by supposed "do gooders" despising our military and those who serve in it with thinly guised words of good intentions for the individuals.

Yes, it's my favorite play in the CP lib playbook...

"I will say I don't believe this to insulate me from having to defend it, then post a bunch of articles to try and make the idea spread".

The oldest one in the book.

SBK
02-01-2005, 09:09 AM
I guess only one party can have HIM. ROFL ROFL ROFL

http://www.u-r-next.com/bushJC.jpg

You're retarded. And yes, Im being nice.

stevieray
02-01-2005, 09:26 AM
I guess only one party can have HIM. ROFL ROFL ROFL

http://www.u-r-next.com/bushJC.jpg

Recovered...? yup this proves it without a doubt.

Baby Lee
02-01-2005, 09:30 AM
You're retarded. And yes, Im being nice.
The insurgents have a tantalizing proposition for her.

KABOOM!!!!!

BroWhippendiddle
02-03-2005, 06:21 PM
You are insane.

My husband is a 'recovered' Muslim, me a 'recovered' Catholic. At no time have we ever or will we ever practice either religion in our home. We feel we were lucky to have escaped from BOTH cults.

From your statement I don't believe that you understand what a cult is.