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View Full Version : I say...No to the big name FA corners.


Chris Meck
02-05-2005, 07:39 PM
Look folks, in previous years, I'd be all over it. Not now, not with the rule changes. Consider this:

How much difference did Champ Bailey make in the Donkos defense? NOT MUCH.

How much did the Patriots defense suffer when Law went down and they had to, at times, put a WR in at corner as well as mid-round rookies? NOT MUCH.

I've been thinking, and going back and forth on this subject, and I think I've come around to the thought that it's all about the front seven. You must disrupt patterns at the line; you must disrupt the timing; you must get in the QB's face. You must pressure and confuse, because the myth of a 'shut down' corner is just that in this new era-a myth.

You need ferocity out of your LB corps. You need a relentless pass rush. You need a vicious run defense. All you really need of your secondary is to be where they're supposed to be-which is a problem for the Chiefs, for sure. But I don't think the BIG money should be spent there anymore. I think the big money should be spent in the front seven.

I think the reason you see enemy receivers running free is because we did NOT EXECUTE the attack. Sign Hartwell. Hell, sign another OLB. Fuji can stay. Sign a DE to replace Hicks. Allen can stay. Get a bloodthirsty front seven in place and I think the rest will be fine. If you can upgrade at CB, then by all means do it, but I don't think Law, or Smoot, or even Surtain is worth breaking the bank.

Chris

Wile_E_Coyote
02-05-2005, 08:21 PM
http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/images_tv/kids/puffie2.gif

Braincase
02-05-2005, 08:39 PM
Just another brown-noser trying to get a job in the Chiefs' front office. You probably think parking is underprised, too. :p

LTownChief
02-05-2005, 08:51 PM
please, we NEED a corner, no matter the rule change.

philfree
02-05-2005, 09:18 PM
I agree about the front seven being key against the pass but quality CBs are still important and if we don't upgrade we'll be toast.

PhilFree :arrow:

SBK
02-05-2005, 10:29 PM
Look folks, in previous years, I'd be all over it. Not now, not with the rule changes. Consider this:

How much difference did Champ Bailey make in the Donkos defense? NOT MUCH.

How much did the Patriots defense suffer when Law went down and they had to, at times, put a WR in at corner as well as mid-round rookies? NOT MUCH.

I've been thinking, and going back and forth on this subject, and I think I've come around to the thought that it's all about the front seven. You must disrupt patterns at the line; you must disrupt the timing; you must get in the QB's face. You must pressure and confuse, because the myth of a 'shut down' corner is just that in this new era-a myth.

You need ferocity out of your LB corps. You need a relentless pass rush. You need a vicious run defense. All you really need of your secondary is to be where they're supposed to be-which is a problem for the Chiefs, for sure. But I don't think the BIG money should be spent there anymore. I think the big money should be spent in the front seven.

I think the reason you see enemy receivers running free is because we did NOT EXECUTE the attack. Sign Hartwell. Hell, sign another OLB. Fuji can stay. Sign a DE to replace Hicks. Allen can stay. Get a bloodthirsty front seven in place and I think the rest will be fine. If you can upgrade at CB, then by all means do it, but I don't think Law, or Smoot, or even Surtain is worth breaking the bank.

Chris
signed,
Eric, Dexter, William and Julian

DaWolf
02-06-2005, 12:33 AM
You also need corners who can hold coverage for an extra second or two to allow the pass rush and the disruption to get there. Gun's scheme is worthless without good corners because his aggressive tendencies leave corners out there on an island, so if the guy cannot hold his coverage downfield, it won't give enough time for the pressure to get there and the QB can toss it up all day long.

Yeah you need all that other stuff but you also need a guy in your defensive backfield who will give the QB second thoughts about going there which would give the hesitation needed for a blitzing backer to get there and knock something loose. You need a corner who will do his job well and take pressure off of the safeties allowing them to concentrate on what they need to do and allowing Gun to unleash some of his more exotic blitz packages...

Manila-Chief
02-06-2005, 04:10 AM
You may not want a C.B. but from what I'm reading on here Gun wants at least one .... seems to me that he knows more about our D and our present talent than most of us????

I agree ... the rules have changed ... but a quality C.B. will better adopt to the new rules and do his job better. I think we don't have that quality now!!!

Plus, most likely this will be our last year of opportunity. I hope Kingless, D.V. and Gun leave nothing on the table of F.A. and the draft. Spend the money this year. Try your best to get it done. If they don't ... we will be rebuilding any way .... but without even a shot at a S.B.

mikey23545
02-06-2005, 05:50 AM
Damn, did anybody bother to read Chris' post to begin with, or did all the call-in radio knee-jerk stuff just start flowing out involuntarily?

He never said we didn't need an upgrade at CB, he just stated we shouldn't break the bank on one position because that one position has been semi-handcuffed by the new pass defense rules. In other words (and I agree heartily) the worst thing we could do is spend a fortune on one corner (Yes, Ty Law, this means you) and have to then scrimp on the front 7 additions. If anything, it should be the exact opposite.

htismaqe
02-06-2005, 06:04 AM
Damn, did anybody bother to read Chris' post to begin with, or did all the call-in radio knee-jerk stuff just start flowing out involuntarily?

He never said we didn't need an upgrade at CB, he just stated we shouldn't break the bank on one position because that one position has been semi-handcuffed by the new pass defense rules. In other words (and I agree heartily) the worst thing we could do is spend a fortune on one corner (Yes, Ty Law, this means you) and have to then scrimp on the front 7 additions. If anything, it should be the exact opposite.

:bravo:

I agree wholeheartedly.

bricks
02-06-2005, 07:11 AM
:bravo:

I agree wholeheartedly.

You and those bravo hands :D

bricks
02-06-2005, 07:25 AM
Look folks, in previous years, I'd be all over it. Not now, not with the rule changes. Consider this:

How much difference did Champ Bailey make in the Donkos defense? NOT MUCH.

How much did the Patriots defense suffer when Law went down and they had to, at times, put a WR in at corner as well as mid-round rookies? NOT MUCH.

I've been thinking, and going back and forth on this subject, and I think I've come around to the thought that it's all about the front seven. You must disrupt patterns at the line; you must disrupt the timing; you must get in the QB's face. You must pressure and confuse, because the myth of a 'shut down' corner is just that in this new era-a myth.

You need ferocity out of your LB corps. You need a relentless pass rush. You need a vicious run defense. All you really need of your secondary is to be where they're supposed to be-which is a problem for the Chiefs, for sure. But I don't think the BIG money should be spent there anymore. I think the big money should be spent in the front seven.

I think the reason you see enemy receivers running free is because we did NOT EXECUTE the attack. Sign Hartwell. Hell, sign another OLB. Fuji can stay. Sign a DE to replace Hicks. Allen can stay. Get a bloodthirsty front seven in place and I think the rest will be fine. If you can upgrade at CB, then by all means do it, but I don't think Law, or Smoot, or even Surtain is worth breaking the bank.

Chris

chris,

I think it all depends what style, system of defense our team is running. If we had retained Grob rights and services, I would agree with you wholeheartedly on this because Grob's defense involved several zone coverages, zone blites, very little man-to-man. In that case, an effective front seven is required. However, I do somewhat disagree with you. Mainly cause Gun's style of defense requires several press man-to-man coverage, LB blitzing packages. His defense evolves around around a solid back seven. Coincedentally, that's where our problem lies this season. The D-line is ok, pretty good. The Chiefs should break the bank for corners, draft a safety or two, add a few good quality LB's, and the rest will take care of itself. :thumb:

whoman69
02-06-2005, 07:29 AM
I have to agree not to get the big names at any position. What we need is an upgrade. The high priced guys eat up way too much money and are big names because they've been in the league a while. Because of this last fact, they have very little left in the tank. Who are all these big name FAs the Patriot and the Steelers signed? I would go as far to say that most of the best teams in the league did not sign big name FAs. The key is to find players that are better than what we have or what we can get in the draft.

DaWolf
02-06-2005, 07:55 AM
Damn, did anybody bother to read Chris' post to begin with, or did all the call-in radio knee-jerk stuff just start flowing out involuntarily?

He never said we didn't need an upgrade at CB, he just stated we shouldn't break the bank on one position because that one position has been semi-handcuffed by the new pass defense rules. In other words (and I agree heartily) the worst thing we could do is spend a fortune on one corner (Yes, Ty Law, this means you) and have to then scrimp on the front 7 additions. If anything, it should be the exact opposite.

I don't think any team is gonna break the bank on any corner. That's all a myth anyway. Good organizations structure contracts so that while they may look big, they work out capwise for the team, and I'd expect the Chiefs would do that for any free agent they brought in. Our cap management team has become much more competent since the arrival of DV.

That said, I have no problem paying premium price for premium players. Philly certainly had no issues doling out the price for TO and Kearse. And I'll tell you one thing, that option is a whole lot better than going into the season 6 mil under the cap like a certain 7-9 team that I follow did. You can spend money and still make the cap work. If you are a smart organization it can be done.

The question is, are the Chiefs a smart organization?

Dr. Facebook Fever
02-06-2005, 09:32 AM
Look folks, in previous years, I'd be all over it. Not now, not with the rule changes.

Thank you Dick Vermeil.

suds79
02-06-2005, 10:00 AM
Look folks, in previous years, I'd be all over it. Not now, not with the rule changes. Consider this:

How much difference did Champ Bailey make in the Donkos defense? NOT MUCH.

Just checked NFL.com

Denver Broncos Pass Defense in regular season 2003: 12th in the lg.

Denver Broncos Pass Defense in regular season 2004: 6th in the lg.

Becuase of the rule changes, I think it's even more important to find CBs who can cover because now there are even fewer of them.

You just can't say forget it.

brent102fire
02-06-2005, 10:34 AM
I agree to a certain extent, but you must compare apples to apples. Those teams have alot more talent on the Defensive side of the ball than do the Chiefs. If a team like the Pats has a solid front 7 and average CB's it will work. Remember, the Chiefs have and average to below average front 7 and Burntee/McCleon at CB. Even if you had a solid front 7, the QB would still take a 5-7 step drop and find the receiver that Burntee was trying to cover. You can't compare the Chiefs D to the Pats, Broncos, Ravens etc...If a team wants average CB's, then they must have a solid DL and above average LB's. The Chiefs need LB help so Woods/Wesley can play safety like they are supposed to and not Safety/LB!!!!!!

In order of importance:
2 LB's
1 CB
1 DE

I do think Ryan Sims is solid when he wants to be...he just needs Gun to kick him in the ass another year. Lional Dalton was pretty damn disruptive all year and deserves to start. Siavii is in the holding pattern but will hopefully take off this year(Sims to the bench?) and we all know how much Jared Allen will be this next season. Woods/Wesley are good, they just need new LB's on their D. Warfield is solid and we all know about the other CB spot. Hicks will be a good backup, but not a starter anymore. But, I think CP and DV will probably do nothing as usual and we will see some good FA go elsewhere. :cuss: :mad: :shake: :banghead:

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
02-06-2005, 10:53 AM
Just checked NFL.com

Denver Broncos Pass Defense in regular season 2003: 12th in the lg.

Denver Broncos Pass Defense in regular season 2004: 6th in the lg.

Becuase of the rule changes, I think it's even more important to find CBs who can cover because now there are even fewer of them.

You just can't say forget it.


Course it helps that Denver faced the "Peyton-less" Colts.

Chris Meck
02-06-2005, 11:19 AM
Wow.

Hey read the post first, before you start signing Bartee's name to it, LOL.

I'm not saying we don't need an upgrade; in fact, I pointed out that our current group is often NOT WHERE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE.

I'm just saying that I no longer think that the place to spend the BIG MONEY is at CB. I'd rather upgrade multiple positions than just one, and if we get a Law or Surtain-sized contract, it may curtail our ability to get, say, a Hartwell-type LB. Which, in my opinion, is a bigger area of need due to being important in both phases of the defense. Same thing at DE. Same thing at OLB.

It's important to note, I think, that New England has stayed on top for so long not by signing the high cost, big name FA's, but by being smart with their money and putting it in solid but unspectacular players for the most part. Dillon this year being the one real aberration to that plan.

It is true, however, that they draft remarkably well.

As for Denver's leap from #12 to #6 in pass defense, my point is that Champ didn't equal a better team, did he? So in retrospect, that doesn't seem like a very good move.

I think Woods is done; I think we need new blood at his spot. I just don't think he can run anymore. Wesley is inconsistent but talented-sorta like Warfield. Those two are serviceable, in my opinion.
The rest all need to be upgraded. Bartee is done, McCleon is done. keep Battle around, he may pan out but I wouldn't start him. We need a solid corner, maybe another solid safety, an OLB, a MLB, and a DE.

Chris

Mr. Laz
02-06-2005, 11:45 AM
Just say "YES" to fixing the biggest weakness on our team




bring on the Cornerbacks!!!

milkman
02-06-2005, 11:58 AM
Just say "YES" to fixing the biggest weakness on our team




bring on the Cornerbacks!!!

The problem is that as bad as our corners are, the LB corps and front 4 are are equally as bad.

Kawika Mitchell at MLB, Shawn Barber or Quinton Caver and Scott Fugita at OLB, and Eric Hicks, an underachieving Ryan Sims at tackle, not to mention an overmatched John Browning.

Those names make a list of who's who of "How the hell can these guys be starters in the NFL".

Every group is just pathetic.

Mr. Laz
02-06-2005, 12:10 PM
The problem is that as bad as our corners are, the LB corps and front 4 are are equally as bad.

Kawika Mitchell at MLB, Shawn Barber or Quinton Caver and Scott Fugita at OLB, and Eric Hicks, an underachieving Ryan Sims at tackle, not to mention an overmatched John Browning.

Those names make a list of who's who of "How the hell can these guys be starters in the NFL".

Every group is just pathetic.

tis a sad thing really :sulk:

bringbackmarty
02-06-2005, 12:30 PM
You also need corners who can hold coverage for an extra second or two to allow the pass rush and the disruption to get there. Gun's scheme is worthless without good corners because his aggressive tendencies leave corners out there on an island, so if the guy cannot hold his coverage downfield, it won't give enough time for the pressure to get there and the QB can toss it up all day long.

Yeah you need all that other stuff but you also need a guy in your defensive backfield who will give the QB second thoughts about going there which would give the hesitation needed for a blitzing backer to get there and knock something loose. You need a corner who will do his job well and take pressure off of the safeties allowing them to concentrate on what they need to do and allowing Gun to unleash some of his more exotic blitz packages...
good analysis of the problem

bringbackmarty
02-06-2005, 12:33 PM
I don't think any team is gonna break the bank on any corner. That's all a myth anyway. Good organizations structure contracts so that while they may look big, they work out capwise for the team, and I'd expect the Chiefs would do that for any free agent they brought in. Our cap management team has become much more competent since the arrival of DV.

That said, I have no problem paying premium price for premium players. Philly certainly had no issues doling out the price for TO and Kearse. And I'll tell you one thing, that option is a whole lot better than going into the season 6 mil under the cap like a certain 7-9 team that I follow did. You can spend money and still make the cap work. If you are a smart organization it can be done.

The question is, are the Chiefs a smart organization?
again this is right on

Knob
02-06-2005, 12:41 PM
Look folks, in previous years, I'd be all over it. Not now, not with the rule changes. Consider this:

How much difference did Champ Bailey make in the Donkos defense? NOT MUCH.

How much did the Patriots defense suffer when Law went down and they had to, at times, put a WR in at corner as well as mid-round rookies? NOT MUCH.

I've been thinking, and going back and forth on this subject, and I think I've come around to the thought that it's all about the front seven. You must disrupt patterns at the line; you must disrupt the timing; you must get in the QB's face. You must pressure and confuse, because the myth of a 'shut down' corner is just that in this new era-a myth.

You need ferocity out of your LB corps. You need a relentless pass rush. You need a vicious run defense. All you really need of your secondary is to be where they're supposed to be-which is a problem for the Chiefs, for sure. But I don't think the BIG money should be spent there anymore. I think the big money should be spent in the front seven.

I think the reason you see enemy receivers running free is because we did NOT EXECUTE the attack. Sign Hartwell. Hell, sign another OLB. Fuji can stay. Sign a DE to replace Hicks. Allen can stay. Get a bloodthirsty front seven in place and I think the rest will be fine. If you can upgrade at CB, then by all means do it, but I don't think Law, or Smoot, or even Surtain is worth breaking the bank.

Chris



If the Chiefs sit pat, then expect the same result as last year. No playoffs, or Superbowl

milkman
02-06-2005, 12:50 PM
If the Chiefs sit pat, then expect the same result as last year. No playoffs, or Superbowl

He's not suggesting that the Chiefs stand pat.

He's suggesting that upgrading the front 7 is more of a priority than the mythical shutdown corner.

I agree with him.

We do need an upgrade at corner, but we don't need to break the bank on one, because we need upgrades all across the board on D.

Knob
02-06-2005, 01:01 PM
He's not suggesting that the Chiefs stand pat.

He's suggesting that upgrading the front 7 is more of a priority than the mythical shutdown corner.

I agree with him.

We do need an upgrade at corner, but we don't need to break the bank on one, because we need upgrades all across the board on D.


If the Chiefs stand pat on any position on the Defense then they will continue to get it handed to themselves agian next year. Only people worth a spot are Allen, Dalton, and the younger guys because we've yet to see the potential to the fullest. If they don't shake it up then they will be back to the dark ages agian. :thumb:

Gaz
02-07-2005, 05:51 AM
The “shutdown corner” is a myth. The NFL’s relentless campaign for completed passes put the final nail in that particular coffin. Get over it, folks. This is the new Receiver-friendly NFL. CBs were the first position to be neutered. The rest of the Defense is no doubt on deck.

We need an upgrade a CB. No argument. But it would be foolish to spend “Pro-Bowl” money on a CB when the rules-tinkering has reduced him to another Safety. Get a second-tier veteran CB and draft a young CB in the first couple of Rounds. A second-tier veteran CB would be a clear and present upgrade from Bartee or McCleon.

You will get far more bang for your buck with a “Pro-Bowl” Linebacker than a “Pro Bowl” Cornerback.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not sure why the NFL hates Defense so much.

Gaz
02-07-2005, 05:53 AM
Champ Bailey.

[Heh…I love saying that]

xoxo~
Gaz
Has all the evidence he needs to put the “shutdown corner” to rest.

King_Chief_Fan
02-07-2005, 06:18 AM
The “shutdown corner” is a myth. The NFL’s relentless campaign for completed passes put the final nail in that particular coffin. Get over it, folks. This is the new Receiver-friendly NFL. CBs were the first position to be neutered. The rest of the Defense is no doubt on deck.

We need an upgrade a CB. No argument. But it would be foolish to spend “Pro-Bowl” money on a CB when the rules-tinkering has reduced him to another Safety. Get a second-tier veteran CB and draft a young CB in the first couple of Rounds. A second-tier veteran CB would be a clear and present upgrade from Bartee or McCleon.

You will get far more bang for your buck with a “Pro-Bowl” Linebacker than a “Pro Bowl” Cornerback.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not sure why the NFL hates Defense so much.


as usual, you are right on target.