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View Full Version : "Experts" spit on DT's grave


dtebbe
02-05-2005, 09:36 PM
I guess I had a feeling this was going to happen today, but it still pisses me off to no end. How one of the best pass rushers to ever play the game gets passed up, I'll never know. I feel like those guys have spit on the grave of someone in my family, and I'd like to take the sorry bastards apart, to be honest.

I'll be wearing my #58 jersey tomorrow at the superbowl party I'm going to, and I will be wearing it at every football game I attend until DT is in the HOF. I beg the rest of you to do the same, show some support for one of our own. The "experts" let us down.

I hate to say this, but I hope Whitlock tears all those assholes a new one every chance he gets in the coming week. Go get em' Big Sexy!

D.Tebbe

ENDelt260
02-05-2005, 09:44 PM
I'll continue wearing my DT jersey even after he's in the HOF, too.

KCWolfman
02-05-2005, 09:45 PM
I agree that he shouldn't have been passed over, but "specialization" will be the primary excuse.

Was he a speciality player? Sure, but wasn't Jan Stenerud a speciality player as well?

He will get in.

Phobia
02-05-2005, 09:59 PM
Don't count on JW. He has his own, more controversial agendas.... Outrage over DT is a given - it won't sell newspapers, though.

Bowser
02-05-2005, 10:00 PM
Don't count on JW. He has his own, more controversial agendas.... Outrage over DT is a given - it won't sell newspapers, though.

He'll work in some silly "DT vs. the Evil NFL" angle.

ENDelt260
02-05-2005, 10:02 PM
He'll work in some silly "DT vs. the Evil NFL" angle.
It's because DT was black.

FloridaChief
02-05-2005, 10:02 PM
I think I'm just gonna relax, continue to wear my #58 jersey and bide my time...

I didn't expect Derrick to make the HOF this year, though I was disappointed nevertheless. But it will happen. Might take a few years, but he'll get in eventually.

BigRedChief
02-05-2005, 10:08 PM
DT will get in. I thought Irwin would get in and he didn't. Next time will be DT's time.

KCChiefsFan88
02-05-2005, 11:48 PM
I agree that he shouldn't have been passed over, but "specialization" will be the primary excuse.

Was he a speciality player? Sure, but wasn't Jan Stenerud a speciality player as well?

He will get in.


The "specialization" label that people like Paul Zimmerman use for DT as a reason to not put him in the HOF is a pathetic excuse not to put him in the HOF.

Why fault a player who "specialized" in something as gamechanging and pivotal as a QB sack.

RNR
02-06-2005, 12:11 AM
The "specialization" label that people like Paul Zimmerman use for DT as a reason to not put him in the HOF is a pathetic excuse not to put him in the HOF.

Why fault a player who "specialized" in something as gamechanging and pivotal as a QB sack.
There are several players who have a gripe with the Hall. That said DT will get in. The fact he died young and in his prime made him a fan favorite pick. He is not the the first who should have gone and did not.

htismaqe
02-06-2005, 06:06 AM
Whoa...they spit on his grave? That's a little overboard.

As for the specialization, who CARES? He was a guy that the opponent ALWAYS had to account for. That's why he should be in the HoF.

Bob Dole
02-06-2005, 06:27 AM
I agree that he shouldn't have been passed over, but "specialization" will be the primary excuse.

Was he a speciality player? Sure, but wasn't Jan Stenerud a speciality player as well?

He will get in.

Bob Dole doesn't know how someone can honestly look at the side-by-side stat comparison with Lawrence Taylor and decide that Thomas wasn't worthy of induction.

2 fewer seasons, 15 fewer games, 1 less Pro Bowl appearance, 6 fewer sacks but with a higher per-game average, more forced fumbles, more fumble recoveries, more TDs and more safeties.

Cochise
02-06-2005, 06:51 AM
Yeah... I thought he should get in, but "spitting on his grave" is a little overboard imo.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 07:35 AM
Bob Dole doesn't know how someone can honestly look at the side-by-side stat comparison with Lawrence Taylor and decide that Thomas wasn't worthy of induction.

2 fewer seasons, 15 fewer games, 1 less Pro Bowl appearance, 6 fewer sacks but with a higher per-game average, more forced fumbles, more fumble recoveries, more TDs and more safeties.

Lawrence Taylor was a more complete defender (almost twice the number of tackles) and played on championship teams.

Deberg_1990
02-06-2005, 07:38 AM
Lawrence Taylor was a more complete defender (almost twice the number of tackles) and played on championship teams.

If Thomas would have won a Super Bowl he would have been 1st ballot all the way. Thats pretty much how they judge defensive guys. Its much harder for defensive stars to get in than offensive stars. Relax guys, I know the system is flawed/sucks and its dependent on too many opinionated/biased jounalists, but DT will make it in someday.....

whoman69
02-06-2005, 07:39 AM
DT has to get over the notion that he could not stop the run. IMO that happened only late in his career after perhaps he had lost a step and was playing more as an undersized DE than OLB. Eventually he will get in, but I would not be discouraged because he did not get in on first ballot, which is a rarity.

BTW, Big Sexy would probably rather write an article about how DT was an irresponsible father leaving illegitimate children all over. He won't mention the good things he did in the community, which shouldn't have an effect either on football's HOF vote, unlike baseball.

Bob Dole
02-06-2005, 07:39 AM
Lawrence Taylor was a more complete defender (almost twice the number of tackles) and played on championship teams.

Thanks for re-quoting Dr. Z for the 7000th time. Bob Dole had never heard that argument before this morning.

tomahawk kid
02-06-2005, 08:10 AM
I was just as livid as many of you after the announcment yesterday.

Growing up as a kid in Mid-Missouri (outside the KC Metro Area). Derrick Thomas was the Kansas City Chiefs to me through the early years of "NFL Fandom". He was an easily identifiable icon, and although my understanding of the game was limited, I DID understand that Derrick could completely change the complection of a game with a QB sack. To me, he was on the level of Michael Jordan. Derrick could take over a game at any moment.

Having stated all that (and allowing myself some time to cool off), I guess I shouldn't have been too surpised that DT didn't get in on his first try. I was shocked to read in the paper this morning, that it took Bobby Bell 3 years, Lanier something like 6, and Buck Buchanan 10 freaking years to get inducted. All 3 of these guys were considered to be "dominant" defensive players of there era, and NONE got in on the first try. (I'm sure some of the old AFL prejudices played a role in Bell and Buck's delayed inductions).

Whitlock also had some good info in his column, referring to the fact that few DEFENSIVE players have been selected their first time around.

Derrick will get in someday, we as Chiefs fans just have to remain patient until his time comes.

P.S - Dr Z is a freaking tool the likes of which this world has never seen. One simple stat on Dorkus Z tells it all; 4 Buffalo Bills SB appearances - 4 predicted Buffalo SB titles by Dorkus.

chiefqueen
02-06-2005, 08:16 AM
Jason Whitlock is not KC's vote to the HOF, Bob Gretz is. All through December on Cold Pizza Woody said he was going to lobby against DT getting in on the first ballot. I was surprised when he said Friday that he would vote for him. When I heard this I thought DT might have a chance.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 08:50 AM
Bob Dole doesn't know how someone can honestly look at the side-by-side stat comparison with Lawrence Taylor and decide that Thomas wasn't worthy of induction.

2 fewer seasons, 15 fewer games, 1 less Pro Bowl appearance, 6 fewer sacks but with a higher per-game average, more forced fumbles, more fumble recoveries, more TDs and more safeties.
I agree, but DT didn't play East Coast.

He will get in. It is not a travesty by any stretch and he will eventually be a resident of Canton.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 08:56 AM
Lawrence Taylor was a more complete defender (almost twice the number of tackles) and played on championship teams.
Ridiculous reasoning of one who merely reads and projects the thoughts of others.

Using your analogy, Howie Long should be kicked out today - they didn't record tackles in the 80s, but his total sacks and forced fumbles are significantly lower than either Taylor or Thomas.

Thomas deserves to be in, his play was premier for the time - that should be the only consideration for the HOF.

Dr. Facebook Fever
02-06-2005, 08:57 AM
DT will get in and now it will be even more sweet when it happens. I didn't expect him to get him yesterday being that it was his first time being eligible, he never even got to, let alone won a Super-Bowl, he played in a small market and he did fall off a bit at the end of his career. It was almost a given that he was gonna get shafted this time. He'll get there eventually though.

Is he even on the Chiefs Ring of Fame yet? He should be there first.

Mile High Mania
02-06-2005, 08:59 AM
I was a bit surprised that he didn't get in, but only a 1/3 of those in the HOF now got in on their first try. There are a lot of guys that fall into DT's scenario... I don't think it's spitting on his grave though.

I still don't see how Jim Kelly was a first ballot guy though.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:01 AM
Ridiculous reasoning of one who merely reads and projects the thoughts of others..

Actually my reasoning is based on looking up the stats of the two players.

I never said DT didn't deserve the HOF either. I just don't think he's a first ballot HOFer. And comparing him to Lawrence Taylor is dumb, too, because LT was a more complete player, thus more deserving of getting in sooner.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:04 AM
DT will get in and now it will be even more sweet when it happens. I didn't expect him to get him yesterday being that it was his first time being eligible, he never even got to, let alone won a Super-Bowl, he played in a small market and he did fall off a bit at the end of his career. It was almost a given that he was gonna get shafted this time. He'll get there eventually though.

Is he even on the Chiefs Ring of Fame yet? He should be there first.
Yup, our waiting rule was bypassed and he was added to the Chiefs HOF and ROF


And you are right, 100% on all else in your post.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:06 AM
Actually my reasoning is based on looking up the stats of the two players.

I never said DT didn't deserve the HOF either. I just don't think he's a first ballot HOFer. And comparing him to Lawrence Taylor is dumb, too, because LT was a more complete player, thus more deserving of getting in sooner.
No, you based upon stats of teams as well, not just players as the old "He didn't play in a championship game" excuse was used. Stats is not the only reason used for HOF consideration. The MAIN consideration is "Was he A premier player during his considerate time in the NFL on a consistent basis". There is no "He didn't tackle runners real well when he was stopping passing and surpassing sacking recordss", that is just ridiculous.

He was A premier player of his era, that is all that matters.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:07 AM
Actually my reasoning is based on looking up the stats of the two players.



So you believe Howie Long doesn't deserve the HOF based upon his stats compared to DT and LT, right?

Dr. Facebook Fever
02-06-2005, 09:07 AM
Yup, our waiting rule was bypassed and he was added to the Chiefs HOF and ROF


And you are right, 100% on all else in your post.
Thanks for the ROF, HOF info. I can't believe I don't remember seeing his name on the ROF in the three games I went to this year.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:10 AM
He was A premier player of his era, that is all that matters.

I agree 100%. He just wasn't good enough to merit first-ballot induction.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:13 AM
So you believe Howie Long doesn't deserve the HOF based upon his stats compared to DT and Lawrence Taylor , right?

Just because a player doesn't get 100+ sacks doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the HOF. 84 sacks, 8 pro bowls, 1 Super Bowl, All-80's team....that sounds like HOF qualifications to me.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:14 AM
Just because a player doesn't get 100+ sacks doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the HOF. 84 sacks, 8 pro bowls, 1 Super Bowl, All-80's team....that sounds like HOF qualifications to me.
So what you are saying is that stats matter until stats matter.

Nice reasoning.

gblowfish
02-06-2005, 09:15 AM
Spit on his grave? Drama queen...

Here's why he didn't get in, and may not get in for a long time:

1) Played in a small market;
2) Never played in Super Bowl;
3) Was accused of not showing up in big games - and there is a lot of truth to that criticism...
4) Lifestyle (strip clubs, multiple kids with multiple women);
5) Relatively short career compared to other candidates;
6) Lots of folks in the NFL hate Carl Peterson. DT was Carl's pride & joy.

I too think he'll get in eventually. Maybe not next year or the year after, but eventually. DT did a lot of community service, and the players liked him. So eventually I think he'll make it. This might sound crazy, but Priest Holmes or Will Shields might make it in before DT. It might be seven to ten more years before DT gets in, IMHO. That doesn't mean I don't think he deserves it. He does. So does Otis Taylor, Johnny Robinson and Ed Budde. Look how long it took Hank Stram to get in.
So don't be surprised if it takes many years.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:17 AM
So what you are saying is that stats matter until stats matter.

Nice reasoning.

What the hell?

Each player is an individual case.

All I am saying is that Derrick Thomas does not deserve to be a first-ballot hall of famer based on his NFL accomplishments.

He definitely had a HOF career, just not first-ballot.

Mile High Mania
02-06-2005, 09:18 AM
There are lots of things that confuse me about the HOF...

Why aren't guys like Monk and Harry Carson in? Why was Kelly a first ballot guy? Why will Aikman be a first ballot guy? You know he will. Aikman was an efficient passer, but he had a great defense ... the NFL's all-time rushing leader, Moose, Irvin, Novacek and Harper. Not to mention, he had a fine Oline and Jimmy Johnson.

Aikman played 12 seasons....
Just over 32,000 yards - 165 TDs / 141 INTs
Only passed 3,000 yards 5 times.
Only had more than 19 TDs twice.

The team won 3 of 4 SBs... but, look at his final 5 years. He never took that team anywhere and his numbers were blah.

12 seasons... 4 or 5 good years... but Aikman did nothing to warrant first ballot HOF consideration in my book. Good guy on a great team.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:18 AM
This might sound crazy, but Priest Holmes or Will Shields might make it in before DT.

I don't think Priest has a chance in hell of making it into the HOF. Shields is a stone-cold lock.

I think DT will make it in the next five years.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:18 AM
What the hell?

Each player is an individual case.

All I am saying is that Derrick Thomas does not deserve to be a first-ballot hall of famer based on his NFL accomplishments.

He definitely had a HOF career, just not first-ballot.
Only your second sentence is correct.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:20 AM
There are lots of things that confuse me about the HOF...

Why aren't guys like Monk and Harry Carson in? Why was Kelly a first ballot guy? Why will Aikman be a first ballot guy? You know he will. Aikman was an efficient passer, but he had a great defense ... the NFL's all-time rushing leader, Moose, Irvin, Novacek and Harper. Not to mention, he had a fine Oline and Jimmy Johnson.

Aikman played 12 seasons....
Just over 32,000 yards - 165 TDs / 141 INTs
Only passed 3,000 yards 5 times.
Only had more than 19 TDs twice.

The team won 3 of 4 SBs... but, look at his final 5 years. He never took that team anywhere and his numbers were blah.

12 seasons... 4 or 5 good years... but Aikman did nothing to warrant first ballot HOF consideration in my book. Good guy on a great team.
Brad - That's it. Some will attempt to reason by numbers and by teams, but the fact is that the current system regarding consideration is flawed if you compare current mambers of the HOF to those past over.

The HOF was designed to highlight the premier PLAYERS and COACHES of an era, not the players on premier TEAMS, which is what is happening.

Dr. Facebook Fever
02-06-2005, 09:20 AM
There are lots of things that confuse me about the HOF...

Why aren't guys like Monk and Harry Carson in? Why was Kelly a first ballot guy? Why will Aikman be a first ballot guy? You know he will. Aikman was an efficient passer, but he had a great defense ... the NFL's all-time rushing leader, Moose, Irvin, Novacek and Harper. Not to mention, he had a fine Oline and Jimmy Johnson.

Aikman played 12 seasons....
Just over 32,000 yards - 165 TDs / 141 INTs
Only passed 3,000 yards 5 times.
Only had more than 19 TDs twice.

The team won 3 of 4 SBs... but, look at his final 5 years. He never took that team anywhere and his numbers were blah.

12 seasons... 4 or 5 good years... but Aikman did nothing to warrant first ballot HOF consideration in my book. Good guy on a great team.
Aikman = the most over-rated QB in history.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:20 AM
There are lots of things that confuse me about the HOF...

Why aren't guys like Monk and Harry Carson in? Why was Kelly a first ballot guy? Why will Aikman be a first ballot guy? You know he will. Aikman was an efficient passer, but he had a great defense ... the NFL's all-time rushing leader, Moose, Irvin, Novacek and Harper. Not to mention, he had a fine Oline and Jimmy Johnson.

Aikman played 12 seasons....
Just over 32,000 yards - 165 TDs / 141 INTs
Only passed 3,000 yards 5 times.
Only had more than 19 TDs twice.

The team won 3 of 4 SBs... but, look at his final 5 years. He never took that team anywhere and his numbers were blah.

12 seasons... 4 or 5 good years... but Aikman did nothing to warrant first ballot HOF consideration in my book. Good guy on a great team.

I heartily agree. I don't think Aikman is a first-ballot HOFer at all.

I think Kelly was well deserved. He put up some gaudy numbers and ran that K-Gun to perfection.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:21 AM
Only your second sentence is correct.

Opinions are neither correct nor incorrect.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:23 AM
I heartily agree. I don't think Aikman is a first-ballot HOFer at all.

I think Kelly was well deserved. He put up some gaudy numbers and ran that K-Gun to perfection.
Gaudy numbers?

He had only one season with more than 25 TDs and never had a 4,000 yard season. IIRC, he threw only about 60 less INTs than TDs. There are plenty of QBs who played with better stats who are not in - they just don't have the luxury of losing 4 SBs in a row.

siberian khatru
02-06-2005, 09:24 AM
I've never understood the "he's a HOF, not just first ballot" stuff, especially in baseball.

I'm a hard ass on these things. I think it's clearer in baseball than football, the criteria are a bit less subjective, but my philosophy has always been:

1) If you have to make an argument for someone, they probably don't deserve to be in. The HOF should be reserved for the best of the best, the no-brainers, the guys where you immediately think "greatness."

2) If you follow Rule 1 and don't get voted in the first time you're eligible, you're off the ballot forever. I've never understood how someone could not be considered a HOFer the first 7 times he was on a ballot, then suddenly he's in simply because of the competition around him that year. Either you're a HOFer or you're not. Some years you may have 6 or 8 inductees because of a strong field, other years you may not have any.

That's just me. Like I said, I'm a hardass who's been espousing that view for more than 15 years, so I'm used to being in the minority on this.

Mile High Mania
02-06-2005, 09:25 AM
Kelly had good numbers for just 11 years, and was the leader of that team. But, I don't think he was "first ballot" material. The Bills did see the playoffs 8 times in his 11 years and 4 straight SBs, so really I don't have an issue with it... I just wouldn't have put him in on the first try.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:25 AM
Gaudy numbers?

He had only one season with more than 25 TDs and never had a 4,000 yard season. IIRC, he threw only about 60 less INTs than TDs. There are plenty of QBs who played with better stats who are not in - they just don't have the luxury of losing 4 SBs in a row.

I don't think you can say no to 35K+ yards and 237 TDs. 100+ career wins ain't too shabby either.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:27 AM
I don't think you can say no to 35K+ yards and 237 TDs. 100+ career wins ain't too shabby either.
Not too shabby was not your original statement, you said "gaudy" as though no one else was near his totals. He was an above average QB on a very good team - that is all.

Mile High Mania
02-06-2005, 09:29 AM
I think 35,000 yds and 175 TDs in 11 years ... with 8 playoff trips, 4 being SBs is pretty impressive. But, not first ballot.

I think of first ballot HOF QBs and I think of Montana, Elway, Marino, Favre... I might even put Moon in as a first ballot guy.

You can have a guy that's HOF worthy and not be a first ballot guy. Some guys are just no brainers and those are the 1st ballot guys in my eyes. There are other guys that deserve to be in, but they're in a mix of 5-6 other guys with the same credentials. That's where the debates pop up.

That's where guys like Carson, Irvin, Thomas, Monk and MANY others find themselves. Should they be in? Most likely.... question is when.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:30 AM
I honestly think the thing that hindered DT most was his AFC Championship performance in 1993. His only Championship game and he was pulled for poor performance. Is that a reason not to be 1st round material? Not in my opinion, but it is a legitimate argument.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:30 AM
Not too shabby was not your original statement, you said "gaudy" as though no one else was near his totals. He was an above average QB on a very good team - that is all.

I guess we will agree to disagree.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:32 AM
I think 35,000 yds and 175 TDs in 11 years ... with 8 playoff trips, 4 being SBs is pretty impressive. But, not first ballot.

I think of first ballot HOF QBs and I think of Montana, Elway, Marino, Favre... I might even put Moon in as a first ballot guy.

You can have a guy that's HOF worthy and not be a first ballot guy. Some guys are just no brainers and those are the 1st ballot guys in my eyes. There are other guys that deserve to be in, but they're in a mix of 5-6 other guys with the same credentials. That's where the debates pop up.

That's where guys like Carson, Irvin, Thomas, Monk and MANY others find themselves. Should they be in? Most likely.... question is when.

237 TDs...

I don't remember the class Kelly went in with....that might helped in his induction as a first-ballot guy.

I think Moon is definitely a first-ballot guy....but only because it's the pro football hall of fame, not the NFL hall of fame.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:32 AM
I guess we will agree to disagree.
Gaudy is 50K plus yards in a career - 35K is far from "gaudy"

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:33 AM
237 TDs...

I don't remember the class Kelly went in with....that might helped in his induction as a first-ballot guy.

I think Moon is definitely a first-ballot guy....but only because it's the pro football hall of fame, not the NFL hall of fame.
173 INTs - It's easy to make reasons when you selectively pick your stats. Evidently, he wasn't an "all around" player like Montana, Young, Marino, Elway, Favre, etc. Which means, according to you, he wasn't first round material.

Mile High Mania
02-06-2005, 09:34 AM
Yeah - I mistyped Kelly's TDs... I think he has nice stats and is a HOF guy, just not "first ballot".

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:38 AM
173 INTs - It's easy to make reasons when you selectively pick your stats. Evidently, he wasn't an "all around" player like Montana, Young, Marino, Elway, Favre, etc. Which means, according to you, he wasn't first round material.

How was Kelly not all-around? He was a complete QB, and he ran his own offense every year of his career if I am not mistaken, which has to be worth something.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:44 AM
How was Kelly not all-around? He was a complete QB, and he ran his own offense every year of his career if I am not mistaken, which has to be worth something.
Yup, you are right. There is no way a below average QB could take that same team and have the same results - someone like hmmmmmm, Frank Reich for example.

Kelly was an above average QB - There are plenty of QBs who played at the same time he did who were premier and well above him.

Mile High Mania
02-06-2005, 09:45 AM
Kelly was an above average QB - There are plenty of QBs who played at the same time he did who were premier and well above him.

Kelly was better than Aikman though... :thumb:

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 09:48 AM
Yup, you are right. There is no way a below average QB could take that same team and have the same results - someone like hmmmmmm, Frank Reich for example.

Reich had like two good years in Buffalo, man. And even then he never attempted more than 93 passes in one year...hardly a sample to judge anyone on.

chiefs4me
02-06-2005, 09:51 AM
Aikman = the most over-rated QB in history.



I'll dance to that...PBJ

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:56 AM
Kelly was better than Aikman though... :thumb:
Yup, both of them just lucked out to play in the decade of the QB and reap the HOF benefits from the play of others and their teammates.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 09:57 AM
Reich had like two good years in Buffalo, man. And even then he never attempted more than 93 passes in one year...hardly a sample to judge anyone on.
You want to judge DT on ALL stats against LT for your reasoning to state he is not first round material, then you want to selectively choose stats for Kelly against other players of his era for your excuse that he is first round material.

You have no logic in your reasoning.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 10:02 AM
You want to judge DT on ALL stats against Lawrence Taylor for your reasoning to state he is not first round material, then you want to selectively choose stats for Kelly against other players of his era for your excuse that he is first round material.

You have no logic in your reasoning.

I'm not judging DT on all stats. He accomplished squat beyond the regular season.

I'm not selectively choosing Kelly's stats either. His stats are pretty much great all around...he threw a few picks but so did Namath.

Kelly isn't deserving if the Bills don't dominate the AFC for a half-decade, either....

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 10:04 AM
I'm not judging DT on all stats. He accomplished squat beyond the regular season.

I'm not selectively choosing Kelly's stats either. His stats are pretty much great all around...he threw a few picks but so did Namath.

Kelly isn't deserving if the Bills don't dominate the AFC for a half-decade, either....
Your reasoning was that DT was not an all around player as per LT - now you change your argument when cornerned with facts.


Was Kelly as good a QB as Montana, Young, Elway, and Marino - who all played in his era? If the answer is no, he is not a first round ballot inductee.

Kelly made it because he went to four SBs, that is the main reason. He went on the shoulders of his teammates, not his own accomplishments.

Count Zarth
02-06-2005, 10:10 AM
Your reasoning was that DT was not an all around player as per Lawrence Taylor - now you change your argument when cornerned with facts.


Nope, I stand by my argument. Thomas had similar pass rushing numbers, but wasn't a complete player and didn't play on championship teams. That's all I've ever said.



Was Kelly as good a QB as Montana, Young, Elway, and Marino - who all played in his era? If the answer is no, he is not a first round ballot inductee.

So only the top 4 QBs of that time span deserve to be first-ballot HOFers? I don't agree with that at all.


Kelly made it because he went to four SBs, that is the main reason. He went on the shoulders of his teammates, not his own accomplishments.

Again, we're going to just have to agree to disagree. I saw Kelly as the catalyst for that offense. The Bills have been searching for a QB ever since he retired.

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 10:14 AM
So only the top 4 QBs of that time span deserve to be first-ballot HOFers? I don't agree with that at all.




Was he comparable to the 4 mentioned? That was the crux of your argument against DT, he was not comparable to LT. Now you want a different set of standards for Kelly. I wonder why?

Mile High Mania
02-06-2005, 10:33 AM
Was he comparable to the 4 mentioned? That was the crux of your argument against DT, he was not comparable to Lawrence Taylor . Now you want a different set of standards for Kelly. I wonder why?

That's the debate ending response right there...

dtebbe
02-06-2005, 10:41 AM
I honestly think the thing that hindered DT most was his AFC Championship performance in 1993. His only Championship game and he was pulled for poor performance. Is that a reason not to be 1st round material? Not in my opinion, but it is a legitimate argument.

Even Tiger woods has an off day once in a while...

Not many people were able to stop Thurman Thomas and the Bills running game that year either.

DT

gblowfish
02-06-2005, 11:33 AM
Even Tiger woods has an off day once in a while...

Not many people were able to stop Thurman Thomas and the Bills running game that year either.

DTDon't forget the infamous "Monday Night Meltdown" against the Broncos when DT lost his composure on a couple different occasions, drawing personal fouls. That was a very ugly game, several Chiefs players lost their cool. It cost linebacker Wayne Simmons his job, and DT had to make a public apology.

Now...

I'm not saying that should keep him out of the HOF. Hell, Lawrence Taylor did a UPS truck full of cocaine, and he got in. But he played in New York. :banghead:

KCWolfman
02-06-2005, 11:37 AM
Don't forget the infamous "Monday Night Meltdown" against the Broncos when DT lost his composure on a couple different occasions, drawing personal fouls. That was a very ugly game, several Chiefs players lost their cool. It cost linebacker Wayne Simmons his job, and DT had to make a public apology.

Now...

I'm not saying that should keep him out of the HOF. Hell, Lawrence Taylor did a UPS truck full of cocaine, and he got in. But he played in New York. :banghead:
IMO there is a huge difference between off field and on field actions as to determining your ability to enter the HOF

Mr. Laz
02-06-2005, 11:48 AM
"Experts" spit on DT's grave

just's just silly ...


very good players get passed over all the time, it's not a personal attack

Rain Man
02-06-2005, 12:20 PM
Thomas deserved to get in. This should not have happened.

Bob Dole
02-06-2005, 01:09 PM
Kelly was an above average QB - There are plenty of QBs who played at the same time he did who were premier and well above him.

Todd Blackledge immediately leaps to mind.

tomahawk kid
02-06-2005, 01:22 PM
He went on the shoulders of his teammates, not his own accomplishments.

See Len Dawson?

Never saw him play live, but he seemed to be a QB with an average arm, and above average feel for the game and a downright dominating defense.

Can anyone refute that? I'm basically inquiring and NOT making a statement that Lenny doesn't belong.

Bob Dole
02-06-2005, 01:26 PM
See Len Dawson?

Never saw him play live, but he seemed to be a QB with an average arm, and above average feel for the game and a downright dominating defense.

Can anyone refute that? I'm basically inquiring and NOT making a statement that Lenny doesn't belong.

Lenny had flawless technique and made the most of his limited physical ability.

tomahawk kid
02-06-2005, 01:28 PM
Lenny had flawless technique and made the most of his limited physical ability.

Fair enough.

gblowfish
02-06-2005, 04:02 PM
See Len Dawson?

Never saw him play live, but he seemed to be a QB with an average arm, and above average feel for the game and a downright dominating defense.

Can anyone refute that? I'm basically inquiring and NOT making a statement that Lenny doesn't belong.
They didn't call him "Lenny the Cool" for nothing.

He was one of the top three QB's from the AFL (other greats IMHO were Namath and Hadl).

His prime was right around Super Bowl I. By Super Bowl IV he was in the twilight of his career. He was a Super Bowl MVP and when he left the game his stats were among the best in QB rating, completion percentage, TD vs Interception ratio, and yards for a career. He's been passed in many of those categories by contemporary players, but teams pass a hell of a lot more now than they did then. Plus the regular season is two games longer now, and there's one more additional round of playoffs.

Lenny was also a great leader and had that leadership aura, like Joe Montana had with the 49ers. You could see his leadership when the Chiefs did the "church choir" huddle (the coolest huddle ever), where Dawson faced all the other players standing double deep in line. He wasn't real flashy, but he would kill you with precision. Rarely made the big mistake to lose a game. He didn't get sacked a lot until late in his career when he was immobile from age and injury, and from a crappy offensive line.

Other cool stuff: He was a seventh son (the seventh son is supposed to be the lucky one) and he grew up in Alliance, Ohio, just a stone's throw down the road from Canton. He rode the bench for Pittsburgh and Cleveland before Hank Stram brought him to Dallas to QB the Texans. Stram had been one of his coaches back at Purdue, and thought he could play. The beginning of Dawson's career was similar to Trent Green. It took awhile before they gave him an opportunity to show what he could do, and he made the most of it.

RNR
02-07-2005, 03:14 AM
They didn't call him "Lenny the Cool" for nothing.

He was one of the top three QB's from the AFL (other greats IMHO were Namath and Hadl).
ROFL A cheap knock off from "Bart the cool Starr" who handed him his ass in the big show. Lets forget George Blanda, Daryle Lamonica, Jack Kemp. Too lazy to look up stats. Yeah Lenny won you guys a ring but the record he is known for by people who have been around is being taken off the books more than any other player. Back in the day he was known as "Lenny the Tank"

gblowfish
02-07-2005, 08:34 AM
ROFL A cheap knock off from "Bart the cool Starr" who handed him his ass in the big show. Lets forget George Blanda, Daryle Lamonica, Jack Kemp. Too lazy to look up stats. Yeah Lenny won you guys a ring but the record he is known for by people who have been around is being taken off the books more than any other player. Back in the day he was known as "Lenny the Tank"
Blanda's the only one of those three in the HOF and he was primarily a kicker for the Raiders, he only QBed as a backup on a couple of rare occasions. Lamonica got his ass handed to him in Super Bowl II...and Kemp never made it to a Super Bowl. As far as the gambling rumors, they tried to lay that on Lenny right before Super Bowl IV...same week that his dad died. Real nice bunch of guys. No connection was ever made, and Dawson was the MVP of Super Bowl IV.

Typical Raider fan to bag on Lenny the Cool. I'm so shocked :p

Straight, No Chaser
02-07-2005, 09:06 AM
They didn't call him "Lenny the Cool" for nothing.

...

add to what you've listed an "alleged" connection to gambling and you've got another reason to call the HoF selection committee a joke.


--->

ct
02-07-2005, 11:09 AM
... Eventually he will get in, but I would not be discouraged because he did not get in on first ballot, which is a rarity.
...

This is all we really need to say about DT and the HoF. First ballot inductees are for no-brainers, and face the facts folks, DT is not a no-brainer. He will get in, maybe as soon as next year. It's an ego thing with the voters, only those candidates with unquestioned legacy do they 'honor' with a 1st time entry, and honer within the honer, so to speak.

StcChief
02-07-2005, 12:48 PM
If Thomas would have won a Super Bowl he would have been 1st ballot all the way. Thats pretty much how they judge defensive guys. Its much harder for defensive stars to get in than offensive stars. Relax guys, I know the system is flawed/sucks and its dependent on too many opinionated/biased jounalists, but DT will make it in someday.....

By thought exactly. No SB. He'll get in don't worry.

ChiTown
02-07-2005, 12:56 PM
ROFL A cheap knock off from "Bart the cool Starr" who handed him his ass in the big show. Lets forget George Blanda, Daryle Lamonica, Jack Kemp. Too lazy to look up stats. Yeah Lenny won you guys a ring but the record he is known for by people who have been around is being taken off the books more than any other player. Back in the day he was known as "Lenny the Tank"

This garbage isn't even worth replying to, except to say................
4321

chiefs4me
02-07-2005, 04:22 PM
Thomas deserved to get in. This should not have happened.


:thumb:

Logical
02-07-2005, 05:40 PM
dtebbe,

I am really sorry you feel personally offended, but really the decision was not much of a suprise. Hopefully his incomplete skills as a lb won't keep him out forever.