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View Full Version : how do 198 people go before brady?


elvomito
02-06-2005, 12:46 AM
he's was the 199th player picked in his draft?
who was supposed to be watching film in the scouting dept?
how can every organization pass on him several times?
did he show nothing in college?
do we need to start looking for people who suck in college and turn into brady montana or what?

all of you people into this type of stuff, who's the late round draft pick unknown for 2005 who will be something big in 2 years?

ChiefsCountry
02-06-2005, 01:02 AM
Look at the other Michigan QB's (I mean Chiefs QBs), pretty good case for not picking him at the time.

elvomito
02-06-2005, 01:33 AM
yeah that was grbac's last year, and dv's first. i suppose things were in transition here so they missed a lot but how can all the other teams do it too? isn't there some advanced way to scout players by now?

RedNeckRaider
02-06-2005, 01:40 AM
Joe Montana was taken after 81 players, 101 players taken before Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr was taken in the 17th round the list goes on and on...
"all of you people into this type of stuff, who's the late round draft pick unknown for 2005 who will be something big in 2 years?" If we knew that we would not be on a message board would we.

DaWolf
02-06-2005, 01:42 AM
yeah that was grbac's last year, and dv's first. i suppose things were in transition here so they missed a lot but how can all the other teams do it too? isn't there some advanced way to scout players by now?

Dude come on. It happens all the time. Look at Montana going in round 3. Terrell Owens round 6 or something like that. Terrell Davis round 6. College scouting is not an exact science. You really can't measure the intangibles until a player is put in a position to prove it in the NFL. And even at that, if a guy is put in a different situation, they may not wind up being the same player. If Tom Brady had wound up in Chicago rather than New England, for example, the coaching and surrounding cast would have been much different, and worse. He may have wound up as an afterthought if he didn't look as good in that environment. But he was put in a situation that was right for him, he took advantage of that situation, the opportunity allowed for his strenghts to shine, and there you go. You can't really predict it. And it'll always be like that...

Ari Chi3fs
02-06-2005, 01:55 AM
Joe Montana was taken after 81 players, 101 players taken before Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr was taken in the 17th round the list goes on and on...
"all of you people into this type of stuff, who's the late round draft pick unknown for 2005 who will be something big in 2 years?" If we knew that we would not be on a message board would we.


Nope. Johnny U. went undrafted. He then sent a letter to every franchise for a tryout, and eventually someone gave him a spot as the 3rd QB... he paved the rest of his way... Mad Props to Johnny U.

Count Alex's Losses
02-06-2005, 02:04 AM
I wonder how many Super Bowls Trent Green would have won in the last 4 years had he had Brady's defense.

DaWolf
02-06-2005, 02:07 AM
How about Priest Holmes. Undrafted, and barely recieved a sniff from anyone other than the Chiefs when he became a free agent, and we didn't sign him with the expectation that he would become what he did for us. We were gonna pass on Priest and draft Deuce McAllister had the Trent Green deal fallen through. But the Green deal went down, we signed Holmes and went into training camp wondering whether he or TRich would emerge as the every down back...

Count Alex's Losses
02-06-2005, 02:09 AM
Priest had major injury concerns coming out of college.

elvomito
02-06-2005, 02:10 AM
If we knew that we would not be on a message board would we.

well we are now! and i promise no scouting staff are. i'm saying they don't research shit. you don't think by now they's learn a little from past mistakes.
for instance, if i was a scout i'd go back and look at brady's college tapes, do some other things, then look for similar players and compare them to the players around them. there's gotta be little details that expose great players early on. maybe he just didn't get a chance to play in college and there's little game tape.

but you're saying that ryan sims could be somethin big if he went to another team, another situation? tell me that wasn't a whole scouting dept's fault.

DaWolf
02-06-2005, 02:11 AM
I wonder how many Super Bowls Trent Green would have won in the last 4 years had he had Brady's defense.

I wonder how a few of our playoff games and the 1999 sason finale turn out if we had a guy like Vinatieri kicking for us...

elvomito
02-06-2005, 02:11 AM
I wonder how many Super Bowls Trent Green would have won in the last 4 years had he had Brady's defense.

do you think he would have outplayed brady?

Count Alex's Losses
02-06-2005, 02:13 AM
do you think he would have outplayed brady?

I don't think he would have had to.

elvomito
02-06-2005, 02:13 AM
Priest had major injury concerns coming out of college.

chiefs snatched him because they evaluated pro tape. but i remember when it happened. we knew he was gonna be the starter.

DaWolf
02-06-2005, 02:14 AM
Priest had major injury concerns coming out of college.
True, but a lot of people do. Deuce McAllister had major questions about his durability and ankle injuries. Jamal Lewis had knee issues if I recall. Hell Willis McGahee could barely walk when he was drafted...

elvomito
02-06-2005, 02:14 AM
I don't think he would have had to.
could he have?

elvomito
02-06-2005, 02:15 AM
don't think so, be he turned out well

Count Alex's Losses
02-06-2005, 02:16 AM
could he have?

Trent's capable of scorching any defense.

DaWolf
02-06-2005, 02:19 AM
could he have?
I like Green but a big difference I have seen between the two is that Green tends to force certain passes that are not there and will throw into coverage while Brady generally avoids this. Or at least it seems that way. Of course a lot of that may have to do with the fact that Green knows his defense sucks and tries to force himself to get us points even if it isn't there...

tk13
02-06-2005, 02:31 AM
I wonder how a few of our playoff games and the 1999 sason finale turn out if we had a guy like Vinatieri kicking for us...
Gah. I don't even want to think about that. We'd all be dusting off and watching the Super Bowl XXX championship tape this time of year....

Ultra Peanut
02-06-2005, 08:55 AM
True, but a lot of people do. Deuce McAllister had major questions about his durability and ankle injuries. Jamal Lewis had knee issues if I recall. Hell Willis McGahee could barely walk when he was drafted...Heh... I don't think Jamal Lewis played more than four games each year awhile he was at Tenneskurred. I had taken to calling him Candy Ass.

Bob Dole
02-06-2005, 09:36 AM
You realize that players coming out of college, in many cases, have not yet reached their full physical or mental maturity, right?

FloridaChief
02-06-2005, 09:38 AM
How about Priest Holmes...barely recieved a sniff from anyone other than the Chiefs when he became a free agent

Almost true. The Patriots were hot and heavy after him. They were ready to sign him if his deal w/ the Chiefs had fallen through, IIRC...

Over-Head
02-06-2005, 09:51 AM
Plunket is another great one.
Came out late in teh draft, got tagged "injury prone" in Frisco, and New England.
Get's traded to the Raiderz as back up, Pastorini goes out hurt in week 5, Jim leads the team to a wild card win in the big dance

Count Alex's Losses
02-06-2005, 09:55 AM
Plunket is another great one.
Came out late in teh draft, got tagged "injury prone" in Frisco, and New England.
Get's traded to the Raiderz as back up, Pastorini goes out hurt in week 5, Jim leads the team to a wild card win in the big dance

164 TDs, 198 interceptions

Only one season with 20+ TDs

Manila-Chief
02-06-2005, 10:01 AM
Dude come on. It happens all the time. Look at Montana going in round 3. Terrell Owens round 6 or something like that. Terrell Davis round 6. College scouting is not an exact science. You really can't measure the intangibles until a player is put in a position to prove it in the NFL. And even at that, if a guy is put in a different situation, they may not wind up being the same player. If Tom Brady had wound up in Chicago rather than New England, for example, the coaching and surrounding cast would have been much different, and worse. He may have wound up as an afterthought if he didn't look as good in that environment. But he was put in a situation that was right for him, he took advantage of that situation, the opportunity allowed for his strenghts to shine, and there you go. You can't really predict it. And it'll always be like that...

Another part of this argument is that many of these type of player do not get a fair look from their coaches. Some of that is due to the fact that they are not suppose to be good ... also, some of the guys play much better than they practice. My baby brother tried out for the Birmingham Stallions way back when. He said they knew who they were going to keep from the first day ... thus other player don't stand a chance.

IIRC Brady got a chance to play when the starting QB we down. One wonders how many other back ups might turn out to be outstanding were they given a shot?????

Saulbadguy
02-06-2005, 10:17 AM
Damnit, Carl! :cuss:

jspchief
02-06-2005, 10:30 AM
IIRC Brady got a chance to play when the starting QB we down. One wonders how many other back ups might turn out to be outstanding were they given a shot?????

Brady was Drew Henson's back-up IIRC. Everyone had such a boner for Henson, Brady was an afterthought. He was thought to be a product of the system and the talent around him. He doesn't have physical gifts that would make him stand out. Wasn't thought to be very athletic, didn't have a strong arm, etc. There's no combine exercise that measures a player's ability to be a winner.

It's far from an exact science. Look no further than Ryan Leaf for evidence.

Dr. Facebook Fever
02-06-2005, 10:30 AM
do we need to start looking for people who suck in college
we already do that.

Ultra Peanut
02-06-2005, 10:44 AM
Everyone had such a boner for Henson, Brady was an afterthought.I know I did. I didn't think Brady would amount to squat. When Bledsoe went down, my response was, "Wow, Tom Brady? They're ****ed."

Heh.

suds79
02-06-2005, 10:53 AM
he's was the 199th player picked in his draft?
who was supposed to be watching film in the scouting dept?
how can every organization pass on him several times?
did he show nothing in college?
do we need to start looking for people who suck in college and turn into brady montana or what?

all of you people into this type of stuff, who's the late round draft pick unknown for 2005 who will be something big in 2 years?

I think a big factor into how successful someone becomes is in what type or quality of team they go to.

Would Tom Brady be drawing the Montana comparisons if he didn't land on the the Patriots? Don't get me wrong. He's really, really good but I don't think it'd be happening. If he somehow ended up on the Chiefs he'd just be a good QB on a team that's going nowhere because of bad defense.

Is Ben Rothlisberger(sp?) that much better than Eli Manning right now? How would they've faired if their were on eachothers teams?

Would Priest Holmes of become the stud he is today if he wouldn't of gone to a team that has a system that runs sweeps & screens all day long as compared to smashing it up between the tackles.

You want a prediction? I'll give you one. Any player that the Colts draft in the mid rounds on offense that see's the field will look pretty good. Any player that the Pats draft in the middle rounds that see's the field will look pretty good.

There ya go.

RedNeckRaider
02-06-2005, 11:17 AM
Nope. Johnny U. went undrafted. He then sent a letter to every franchise for a tryout, and eventually someone gave him a spot as the 3rd QB... he paved the rest of his way... Mad Props to Johnny U.
Yep.
http://www.profootballhof.com/history/general/draft/1955.jsp

HolmeZz
02-06-2005, 11:19 AM
1) Brady simply wasn't as good in college as he's become in the Pros
2) 99% sure he backed up Drew Henson like his last 2 years in school

Pats Fan
02-06-2005, 03:48 PM
It is so simple. I used to play tennis with a friend of mine. We were pretty equal in talent. But he had something I did not, the absolute that he would not lose. So, it would get close and then the eyes would change, his attitude would change, and DARN he would win. It really was not that important to me. I just wanted to go out and play tennis. But I learned something, some people just cannot stand to lose.

Brady is one. That fight, even if you are equal in talent drives the win. Drives it.

That is why Brady is so good. And when it really counts, I get calm, I am not going to lose, I AM NOT GOING TO LOSE. Will he, sure. But it is an attitude, you have it, or you do not.

FloridaChief
02-06-2005, 03:58 PM
It is so simple. I used to play tennis with a friend of mine. We were pretty equal in talent. But he had something I did not, the absolute that he would not lose. So, it would get close and then the eyes would change, his attitude would change, and DARN he would win. It really was not that important to me. I just wanted to go out and play tennis. But I learned something, some people just cannot stand to lose.

Brady is one. That fight, even if you are equal in talent drives the win. Drives it.

That is why Brady is so good. And when it really counts, I get calm, I am not going to lose, I AM NOT GOING TO LOSE. Will he, sure. But it is an attitude, you have it, or you do not.

Good post.

Good luck to your team today. I know you must be excited as I would be if the Chiefs were playing....

:(

Over-Head
02-06-2005, 04:02 PM
One wonders how many other back ups might turn out to be outstanding were they given a shot?????

Mr. Gannon, please take a bow ROFL
Like him or not, he did prove for a while he was for real

Pitt Gorilla
02-06-2005, 04:04 PM
Holmes, Richardson, and Waters all went undrafted. Oh, and they've all made the Pro Bowl. All those GMs and scouts should be fired!

crossbow
02-06-2005, 04:12 PM
I like Green but a big difference I have seen between the two is that Green tends to force certain passes that are not there and will throw into coverage while Brady generally avoids this. Or at least it seems that way. Of course a lot of that may have to do with the fact that Green knows his defense sucks and tries to force himself to get us points even if it isn't there...

Could be a reflection of coaching phylosophies. Some want the QB to be agressive and take chances others want him to limit risks. The quality of his defense, as you stated, would be in the back of Green's mind. Green has the pressure of knowing they have to score on almost every drive or they lose. Brady knows his defense will hold and he will get another shot at it.

Brady also knows his kicker is money in the bank if he puts the ball at the 35 yard line. Green has no such guarantees.

HemiEd
02-06-2005, 04:22 PM
Could be a reflection of coaching phylosophies. Some want the QB to be agressive and take chances others want him to limit risks. The quality of his defense, as you stated, would be in the back of Green's mind. Green has the pressure of knowing they have to score on almost every drive or they lose. Brady knows his defense will hold and he will get another shot at it.

Brady also knows his kicker is money in the bank if he puts the ball at the 35 yard line. Green has no such guarantees.

Wow, this is an excellent thread, good posts and rep! :thumb:

JimNasium
02-06-2005, 04:26 PM
chiefs snatched him because they evaluated pro tape. but i remember when it happened. we knew he was gonna be the starter.
WTF are you talking about? I don't think that even Vermiel had given the guy an endorsement until well into his first season in a Chiefs uni.

Ultra Peanut
02-06-2005, 04:45 PM
DAMNIT, ALL GMS AND SCOUTS! :cuss:

Deberg_1990
02-06-2005, 05:01 PM
The NFL has always been filled with players like Brady who got overlooked. Montana, Warner, Green, Priest to name a few. Its impossible to measure a players heart and determination to work hard to improve. It is sort of amazing that the NFL still puts so much stock in the combine and silly stats like 40 yard times, high high someone can jump, height, weight etc......

Ultra Peanut
02-06-2005, 05:04 PM
It is so simple. I used to play tennis with a friend of mine. We were pretty equal in talent. But he had something I did not, the absolute that he would not lose. So, it would get close and then the eyes would change, his attitude would change, and DARN he would win. It really was not that important to me. I just wanted to go out and play tennis. But I learned something, some people just cannot stand to lose.

Brady is one. That fight, even if you are equal in talent drives the win. Drives it.

That is why Brady is so good. And when it really counts, I get calm, I am not going to lose, I AM NOT GOING TO LOSE. Will he, sure. But it is an attitude, you have it, or you do not.I think I'm gonna... I think I'm... I'm gonna...

BLAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH :Lin:

Otter
02-06-2005, 05:17 PM
A lot of stars have to align for a draft prospect to become a good QB. Prolly one of the biggest gambles as far as positions.

On top of raw talent you have offensive line, running back, receivers, coaching, mentors, how patient is the team in respect of development. The list goes on and on.

Joey Harrington probably could have been the next Peyton Manning with the right surrounding. No he doesn’t have the same raw skills as Peyton but the system that surrounds him is a big factor in why he “sucks”.

Awesome position to follow, maybe before I’m worm food the Chiefs will try and develop a QB.

milkman
02-06-2005, 05:36 PM
Joe Montana was taken after 81 players, 101 players taken before Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr was taken in the 17th round the list goes on and on...
"all of you people into this type of stuff, who's the late round draft pick unknown for 2005 who will be something big in 2 years?" If we knew that we would not be on a message board would we.

Bart Starr, if memory serves me, missed his senior season because of injury.
I've read that as a junior, he was thought of as a possible 3rd or 4th round pick, but there was a question whether he could be the same player post injury, so he fell way down in the draft.

With that in mind, I'm thinking that LB from Oklahoma, Lance Mitchell(?) has a shot at being a mid to late round pick who blossoms into a star.