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View Full Version : For the Howard "wacko, extremist liberal" Dean bashers...


jAZ
02-13-2005, 10:35 PM
I've repeatedly made the case that while Dean was the poster-boy for the staunchly liberal Democrats during the Dem primary... his track-record (which he downplayed in the always extreme leaning primaries) is far from that of an extreme liberal.

If you don't take my word for it, take these instead.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3845084.htm

Who's the Real Howard Dean?
As Vermont governor, the liberal firebrand was a fiscal conservative with close ties to business

Howard Dean has fought his way to the front of the Democratic pack jostling for the 2004 Presidential nomination partly because he has won the hearts of so many liberals with his antiwar rhetoric and shoot-from-the-lip style. But who is the real Howard Dean? Is he the left-of-center insurgent being portrayed in the press or the business-friendly fiscal conservative and pragmatic moderate who governed Vermont for 11 years?

Many who worked with Dean are astonished at his current image and comparisons to liberal icons such as George McGovern. "The Howard Dean you are seeing on the national scene is not the Dean that we saw around here for the last decade," says John McClaughry, president of the Ethan Allen Institute, a conservative Vermont think tank. "He's moved sharply left."

Conservative Vermont business leaders praise Dean's record and his unceasing efforts to balance the budget, even though Vermont is the only state where a balanced budget is not constitutionally required. Moreover, they argue that the two most liberal policies adopted during Dean's tenure -- the "civil unions" law and a radical revamping of public school financing -- were instigated by Vermont's ultraliberal Supreme Court rather than Dean. "He was not a left-wing wacko," says Bill Stenger, a Republican and president of Jay Peak Resort, who says he supported Dean because of his "fiscally responsible, socially conscious policies."

Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. When Canada's Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. wanted to build a new manufacturing plant on 700 acres of Vermont farmland in the mid-'90s, for instance, Dean greased the wheels. Husky obtained the necessary permits in near-record time. "He was very hands-on," says an appreciative Dirk Schlimm, the Husky executive in charge of the project.

And when environmentalists tried to limit expansion of snowmaking at ski resorts, "Dean had to show his true colors, and he did -- by insisting on a solution that allowed expanding snowmaking," says Stenger. IBM (IBM ) by far the state's largest private employer, says it got kid-gloves treatment. "We would meet privately with him three to four times a year to discuss our issues," says John O'Kane, manager for government relations at IBM's Essex Junction plant, "and his secretary of commerce would call me once a week just to see how things were going."

Dean also wins accolades for his handling of fiscal policy. "He is a very frugal man," says A. Wayne Roberts, president of Lake Champlain Regional Chamber of Commerce, who worked in the Reagan White House in the '80s. "There is no way in heck he would tolerate a deficit." In fact, Dean resisted pleas from more liberal Democratic legislators to hike spending while pushing through two income tax cuts, paying down the state's debt, and funding the state's "rainy day" reserves. As a result, "we are now one of the few states that is in good shape financially," says Jim Douglas, Dean's Republican successor as governor. In fact, Vermont closed the books on its 2003 fiscal year with a $10.4 million surplus, even as California, Massachusetts, and many other states battle huge deficits.

Dr. Dean gets more mixed reviews for his signature effort to extend health insurance to children and low-income adults. He did that by dramatically increasing Vermont's Medicaid program, quadrupling the number of youngsters it covers. Critics argue that this expansion of government-run health care wasn't adequately funded, and tough regulations drove out many private insurers, reducing competition. Part of the cost was offset by limiting reimbursements to doctors to the point where "they are now far less than the cost of actually providing the services," says Paul Harrington, executive vice-president of the Vermont Medical Society. Still, "Medicaid is on an unsustainable track," warns Governor Douglas, who projects that the program will be losing $150 million a year within five years -- a huge shortfall in a small state, though Vermont is hardly alone when it comes to Medicaid woes.

The most controversial change under Dean's watch was the overhaul of Vermont's traditional system of paying for public schools with local property taxes. The new system shifted funds from rich towns to poor towns through a "sharing pool" and raised the burden on Vermonters earning more than $75,000 a year. It sparked an explosion in education spending, "which is up 40% since 1997 even as the number of students are down 6%," says Douglas -- and a firestorm of protest in wealthy towns such as Stowe. After Douglas took office, the sharing pool was eliminated, property taxes for homeowners were reduced, and the sales tax was boosted to make up for lost revenue, making the Dean education plan less controversial.

On most issues, however, Dean positioned himself as a moderate, well to the right of many members of his own party. To be sure, that was in the context of what is arguably the most liberal state in the country. Conservative critics complain that for all his efforts to help business, Dean never challenged the state's onerous regulations or heavy tax burden. "These policies really discourage development," says Richard Heaps, vice-president of Northern Economic Consulting, who advises many of his clients not to move to Vermont.

Still, Dean had a knack for positioning himself and never lost an election. Those who know him best believe Dean is moving to the left to boost his chances of winning the nomination. "But if he gets the nomination, he'll run back to the center and be more mainstream," predicts Stenger. Says Garrison Nelson, a political science professor at the University of Vermont: "Howard is not a liberal. He's a pro-business, Rockefeller Republican."

Indeed, virtually everyone who has worked with Dean believes he would be a demon at reducing the federal deficit. While balancing the budget and keeping defense expenditures intact, that would leave precious little room for new liberal programs. What it more likely would leave are a lot of dashed expectations among the crowd that so fervently wants the doctor to be in.

By William C. Symonds in Burlington, Vt.

KCWolfman
02-13-2005, 10:37 PM
Good luck with your candidate.

jAZ
02-13-2005, 10:38 PM
Good luck with your candidate.
Well said.

Bootlegged
02-13-2005, 10:38 PM
who cares? D's are insignificant.

jAZ
02-13-2005, 10:44 PM
who cares? D's are insignificant.
Good impression. Is that Dick Vermeil or Carl Peterson?

KCWolfman
02-13-2005, 10:47 PM
Good impression. Is that Dick Vermeil or Carl Peterson?
Now that is funny

alnorth
02-13-2005, 10:51 PM
Good impression. Is that Dick Vermeil or Carl Peterson?

ok, that was pretty good

BIG_DADDY
02-13-2005, 11:20 PM
jaz,

Your a part of the problem, not the answer.

jAZ
02-13-2005, 11:26 PM
jaz,

Your a part of the problem, not the answer.
I love it when people show gramatical ignorance just as they are attempting to show personal superiority.

BIG_DADDY
02-13-2005, 11:30 PM
I love it when people show gramatical ignorance just as they are attempting to show personal superiority.

Your a moron, I'll be you make less than 50k a year because nobody values anything you have to offer and you don't have the balls or knowledge to do anything on your own.

jAZ
02-13-2005, 11:34 PM
Your a moron, I'll be you make less than 50k a year because nobody values anything you have to offer and you don't have the balls or knowledge to do anything on your own.
Are you drunk again?

It's showing.

BIG_DADDY
02-13-2005, 11:35 PM
Choosing Dean will prove to be an impotent move when it comes to obtaining funds for the party and you can quote me on that drunk or not.

WilliamTheIrish
02-13-2005, 11:37 PM
Well, I feel for Howard Dean regarding the Vermont SC and how they legislated the school funding issue.

Been there, done that.

jAZ
02-13-2005, 11:38 PM
Choosing Dean will prove to be an impotent move when it comes to obtaining funds for the party and you can quote me on that drunk or not.
:p

(guess I was right)

Btw, when you say "prove to be important move when it comes to obtaining funds for the party"... what exactly are you saying? I want to get this quote down properly.

Are you saying Dean will raise LESS money that his predecessor? Or more?

BIG_DADDY
02-13-2005, 11:51 PM
:p

(guess I was right)

Btw, when you say "prove to be important move when it comes to obtaining funds for the party"... what exactly are you saying? I want to get this quote down properly.

Are you saying Dean will raise LESS money that his predecessor? Or more?

Most likely, an F is an F right? Oh I'm sorry you will never consider anything resembling right, right?

jAZ
02-13-2005, 11:57 PM
Most likely, an F is an F right? Oh I'm sorry you will never consider anything resembling right, right?
Can I ask you to revisit this thread tomorrow and provide a slightly clearer version of your thoughts at that time?

I asked an either/or question and your responded with "most likely".

I have no idea what that means.

Have a good night BD.

BIG_DADDY
02-14-2005, 12:11 AM
Can I ask you to revisit this thread tomorrow and provide a slightly clearer version of your thoughts at that time?

I asked an either/or question and your responded with "most likely".

I have no idea what that means.

Have a good night BD.

An F is an F which is failure BTW. You got me all wrong, I want to see a two party system. I also want to see a good moderate take the office. However, as long as the left (people like you)continue to disconnect from the main body of America by going to the left further and further the right will continue to enjoy complete omnipotence. Of course I don't expect you to GET that. **** an A you don't even get the privatization of SS what should I expect?

jAZ
02-14-2005, 12:23 AM
An F is an F which is failure BTW. You got me all wrong, I want to see a two party system. I also want to see a good moderate take the office. However, as long as the left (people like you)continue to disconnect from the main body of America by going to the left further and further the right will continue to enjoy complete omnipotence. Of course I don't expect you to GET that. **** an A you don't even get the privatization of SS what should I expect?
If your view of right/left/middle is so skewed that you are taking to pegging me as "the (disconnected from the main body of America) left", you have already swallowed the red pill and gone down the rabbit hole.

BIG_DADDY
02-14-2005, 12:48 AM
If your view of right/left/middle is so skewed that you are taking to pegging me as "the (disconnected from the main body of America) left", you have already swallowed the red pill and gone down the rabbit hole.

Nice deflection, not really. All I want from the left is to not fall into the complete socialism category, is that a bad thing? If you don't get the SS thing you will never get it. Like I said earlier,you make less than 50k a year and you think you deserve more than that but nobody else does so you need the communis....I mean government to back you up.

Saggysack
02-14-2005, 01:21 AM
Wow, just wow...

Saggysack
02-14-2005, 03:06 AM
Your a moron, I'll be you make less than 50k a year because nobody values anything you have to offer and you don't have the balls or knowledge to do anything on your own.

Damn. 99% of Police Officers and Military members don't make 50K a yr.

Quite a superiority complex you are displaying with money there, BD.

BushGaveMeApplePie
02-14-2005, 04:50 AM
I love it when people show gramatical ignorance just as they are attempting to show personal superiority.
that's the best! (no offense BIG_DADDY.)

jAZ
02-14-2005, 08:14 AM
Nice deflection, not really. All I want from the left is to not fall into the complete socialism category, is that a bad thing?
No that's not a bad thing at all. I totally agree with that. If that's all you want, then you have a beef with only a very small part of the Democratic Party. I'm certainly not the one you have a beef with.
Like I said earlier,you make less than 50k a year and you think you deserve more than that
And like I should have said before... comments like this make you look like a complete idiot. Absolute, total, complete moron. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are pulling crap outa your ass because you are drunk and your back is against a wall.

I just bought a half-million dollar business with my own money, credit and hard work. It's the 2nd company I currently own. I just quit my corporate job as a Financial Analyst at one of the fastest growing companies in America (yes, making more than $50k/year in cheap-ass Tucson, AZ) because I can afford to. The nice chunk of stock in own in my former company just split (again) 2-1. My wife is an attorney, we are in the top 10% in income.

And based on your comments about my income, you are nothig more than the village idiot. Congratulations.

KCTitus
02-14-2005, 09:02 AM
So lemme get this straight...Jaz is pimping Dean not because he's a true lib, but a conservative dressed up as a lib.

What does this say? That Jaz is proud he's been fooled (or to use a recent favorite term 'bait and switch') by another conservative dressed up as a lib?

Even if Dean did have conservative philosphies, he's beholden to the 'hate-america', greenie weenie, socialist, communist lefties of this country, so he'd better get his mind right.

Cochise
02-14-2005, 09:30 AM
ROFL

The libs are already at work trying to "Hillary" his image. I'm sure he'll be on TV within a week to drop the G-word a few times and say something about how he thinks faith is important.

It'll be interesting to see the person who hates Republicans AND everything Republicans stand for to try to convince people who believe in some or many of those things to vote for his comical party.

It will also be fun to watch the jAZ's of the world convince themselves that Howard Dean is going to reel in moderates after John Kerry sent them racing for the exits.

Iowanian
02-14-2005, 09:49 AM
that's the best! (no offense BIG_DADDY.)

Thats the reply I'd expect you to give about sleeping with small boys.(no offense burnformansteak)


Dean is a socialist, and will do nothing to bring the Dems back to the Center.

BIG_DADDY
02-14-2005, 11:49 AM
jaz,

My only point about the 50k was that people who are smart enough to make more than that are rarely Democrats. Sounds like you got your shit together congratulations. Your wife being an attorney would explain a lot when it comes to you being a Democrat. The bottom line is Dean will hurt the party because he is a socialist and because of that he will fail at raising the money necessary to bring the party back. I would love nothing more than to see the party come back with a good moderate leading the way, Dean is not that guy.

BIG_DADDY
02-14-2005, 11:52 AM
Damn. 99% of Police Officers and Military members don't make 50K a yr.

Quite a superiority complex you are displaying with money there, BD.

Public servants don't count for many reasons when I was trying to make my point. Most military are Republicans as are most police officers.

beavis
02-14-2005, 11:52 AM
This is going to be a fun four years watching these assclowns puke all over themselves.

Saggysack
02-14-2005, 05:48 PM
Public servants don't count for many reasons when I was trying to make my point. Most military are Republicans as are most police officers.

Military members aren't public or civil servants.

I met just as many Democrats as Republicans while I was in the military. Funny thing though. I don't think political ideology meant jack shit to us. It was never a issue. We were all there for different reasons, we just wanted to do the job that was given to us and go home at the end of the day. It didn't matter to us if you were Republican or Democrat, we just wanted that our fellow squad members would take the responsibilty to watch our backs as much we woudl take watching theirs. It's kinda funny you know, out there when the zip and the zing of rounds flying over your head, that political crap don't mean shit. FWIW, The International Brotherhood of Police Officers supported the Democratic ticket last election.

KCWolfman
02-14-2005, 07:18 PM
So lemme get this straight...Jaz is pimping Dean not because he's a true lib, but a conservative dressed up as a lib.

What does this say? That Jaz is proud he's been fooled (or to use a recent favorite term 'bait and switch') by another conservative dressed up as a lib?

Even if Dean did have conservative philosphies, he's beholden to the 'hate-america', greenie weenie, socialist, communist lefties of this country, so he'd better get his mind right.
No reply to your accusations? How unusual :dUhnise:

jAZ
02-14-2005, 10:25 PM
So lemme get this straight...Jaz is pimping Dean not because he's a true lib, but a conservative dressed up as a lib.

What does this say? That Jaz is proud he's been fooled (or to use a recent favorite term 'bait and switch') by another conservative dressed up as a lib?

Even if Dean did have conservative philosphies, he's beholden to the 'hate-america', greenie weenie, socialist, communist lefties of this country, so he'd better get his mind right.
And Bush isn't a real "conservative" either. But the religious fundies and the neo-cons love the guy.

I liked Dean exactly BECAUSE he was a moderate. I learned about that early on... before the media made him into the posterboy for left leaning liberalism.

Prior to his staunchly anti-war positions in the Dem primaries Dean was labled as a faux-Liberal and was called a Republican in sheeps clothing (just llike they said about Wes Clark).

But Dean touched a nerve with his anti-war rhetoric with the most liberal in the party. That's what you are supposed to do in order to win the primary. If Dean had made it out of the primary, you would have heard a lot more about his moderate views & more conservative positions.

That the Republican apologists around here refuse to admit that the Dean=UberLiberal chants are baseless, says more about their willingness to parade their ignorance than it does anything else.

jAZ
02-14-2005, 10:26 PM
No reply to your accusations? How unusual :dUhnise:
This is when you make yourself look like a child. Not sure what motivates you do this, but it's unflattering.

KCWolfman
02-15-2005, 06:23 AM
This is when you make yourself look like a child. Not sure what motivates you do this, but it's unflattering.
Are you in charge of everyone's character flaws on this particular thread?

KCTitus
02-15-2005, 08:03 AM
But Dean touched a nerve with his anti-war rhetoric with the most liberal in the party. That's what you are supposed to do in order to win the primary.

Apparently that's not what you're supposed to do...he didnt win the primary and we all know the history from there.

I find it odd you would like a moderate considering just how far out in left field your rhetoric is.

jAZ
02-15-2005, 08:16 AM
Apparently that's not what you're supposed to do...he didnt win the primary and we all know the history from there.

I find it odd you would like a moderate considering just how far out in left field your rhetoric is.
I truely am a moderate, but when surrounded by a pack of wild (conservative) dogs, all you guys ever see is me knocking down the BS that flies around here.

I am far from the left.

I piss my wife off because I'm moderate. She's pretty far to the left of me, and even she's not the most liberal person in the world.

Problem is that if you complain about bullshit when a Republican is in charge, the Republicans (knowing that much of the complaining is justifiable) have little else to do but attempt to marginalize the messenger.

jAZ
02-15-2005, 08:16 AM
Are you in charge of everyone's character flaws on this particular thread?
Only the obvious and overwhelming ones.

KCTitus
02-15-2005, 08:23 AM
I truely am a moderate, but when surrounded by a pack of wild (conservative) dogs, all you guys ever see is me knocking down the BS that flies around here.

I am far from the left.

I really dont have the time or inclination to do a quick run down of some of the more nonsensical issues you've championed over the last 18 months or so...frankly, you could be a moderate but your blind hatred for anything Bush related really has painted you into a corner.

You peddle more BS than anyone on this BB save for our recently banned friend from yesterday.

We all remember the whole Rather scene that caused you to tuck tail and run for several months.

jAZ
02-15-2005, 08:43 AM
We all remember the whole Rather scene that caused you to tuck tail and run for several months.
It's BS like this that I am constantly knocking down. The facts of the Rather issue and my stated opinions haven't changed one bit.

They are allegedly fake (no one has proven them to be fake... NO ONE).

Rather f'd up in rushing to be the first to get the story, and deserves what he gets for doing so.

But now I'm an extremist liberal because your facts were wrong and I called you on it. Ahh well... I'm off to work.

Later.

KCTitus
02-15-2005, 08:44 AM
It's BS like this that I am constantly knocking down. The facts of the Rather issue and my stated opinions haven't changed one bit.

They are allegedly fake (no one has proven them to be fake... NO ONE).

Rather f'd up in rushing to be the first to get the story, and deserves what he gets for doing so.

But now I'm an extremist liberal because your facts were wrong and I called you on it. Ahh well... I'm off to work.

Later.

Anyone else find the uproariously funny irony here?

[jaz decoder ring translation]

You got me...time to cut and run and go to 'work'.

[/jaz decoder ring translation]

Cochise
02-15-2005, 08:57 AM
Anyone else find the uproariously funny irony here?

[jaz decoder ring translation]

You got me...time to cut and run and go to 'work'.

[/jaz decoder ring translation]

ROFL

I don't know who he thinks he is fooling with that "I didn't run away for months after that embarassment" tripe.

alanm
02-15-2005, 09:08 AM
It's BS like this that I am constantly knocking down. The facts of the Rather issue and my stated opinions haven't changed one bit.

They are allegedly fake (no one has proven them to be fake... NO ONE).

Rather f'd up in rushing to be the first to get the story, and deserves what he gets for doing so.

But now I'm an extremist liberal because your facts were wrong and I called you on it. Ahh well... I'm off to work.

Later.
Way to go Titus!! You bring Rather up again and he tucks tail and runs. :) :thumb:

Cochise
02-15-2005, 09:15 AM
Way to go Titus!! You bring Rather up again and he tucks tail and runs. :) :thumb:

I admire his attempt to shift the burden of proof here. He says that no one has proved the documents are fake. Well, dipshit, you are making the accusation, it's your side's responsibility to substantiate them. But last I checked, no one could name a device available at the time that is capable of typing that document.

alanm
02-15-2005, 09:27 AM
I admire his attempt to shift the burden of proof here. He says that no one has proved the documents are fake. Well, dipshit, you are making the accusation, it's your side's responsibility to substantiate them. But last I checked, no one could name a device available at the time that is capable of typing that document.I'm suprised that someone somewhere hasn't scoured the earth for a old... What was it, a IBM, Remmington ect. circa 1970 typewriter off of ebay or rummaged at garage sales and finally produced one to hold up for the critics. Saying " See we found it. We we're right!!"
ROFL

KCTitus
02-15-2005, 09:29 AM
I admire his attempt to shift the burden of proof here. He says that no one has proved the documents are fake. Well, dipshit, you are making the accusation, it's your side's responsibility to substantiate them. But last I checked, no one could name a device available at the time that is capable of typing that document.

Ive long been fascinated by the psychological phenomenon that goes on here with our liberal buddies. jettio, penchief and jaz are all famous for this form of 'projection' where they accuse their philosophical oppenents of saying/doing the things that they actually do.

A good example is jaz's last post...

But now I'm an extremist liberal because your facts were wrong and I called you on it.

Quite the contrary, the only one being called on 'questionable' facts here is Jaz. Rather lost his anchor job, and 4 executive producers at CBS were fired--those are the only 'facts' I need to know that story was bogus and politically motivated. Proving these documents fake is kind of like having to 'prove' the sky is blue.--there's no need to prove the obvious.

Yet, that statement twists it around as if Im the one making some wild claim without any supporting evidence...

Baby Lee
02-15-2005, 09:33 AM
They are allegedly fake (no one has proven them to be fake... NO ONE).
And NO ONE has proven that US forces haven't targeted journalists for assassination, eh?

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2005, 12:18 PM
Military members aren't public or civil servants.

I met just as many Democrats as Republicans while I was in the military. Funny thing though. I don't think political ideology meant jack shit to us. It was never a issue. We were all there for different reasons, we just wanted to do the job that was given to us and go home at the end of the day. It didn't matter to us if you were Republican or Democrat, we just wanted that our fellow squad members would take the responsibilty to watch our backs as much we woudl take watching theirs. It's kinda funny you know, out there when the zip and the zing of rounds flying over your head, that political crap don't mean shit. FWIW, The International Brotherhood of Police Officers supported the Democratic ticket last election.

Whatever, that's why the Democrats didn't want the military vote counted in the Gore -vs- Bush election right, because it was even Steven.:rolleyes: As far as cops go your talking to someone who's family is mostly made up of cops. I have never met a cop who was a Democrat although I am sure there are some they are a major minority. I am sure most other public servans are Democrats though, they want to keep their jobs right? A leach is a leach no way around it.

whoman69
02-15-2005, 03:22 PM
Simply put, Dean came out with new methods of fund raising for Democrats. He will help the party fiscally. The thing I did not like about him as a candidate was that his yelling style seemed bullying to me. It was as though he thought he could shout down opposition. Any prominent Democrat is going to be painted as being ultra liberal, warrented or no.

Calcountry
02-15-2005, 06:00 PM
I've repeatedly made the case that while Dean was the poster-boy for the staunchly liberal Democrats during the Dem primary... his track-record (which he downplayed in the always extreme leaning primaries) is far from that of an extreme liberal.

If you don't take my word for it, take these instead.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3845084.htm

Who's the Real Howard Dean?
As Vermont governor, the liberal firebrand was a fiscal conservative with close ties to business

Howard Dean has fought his way to the front of the Democratic pack jostling for the 2004 Presidential nomination partly because he has won the hearts of so many liberals with his antiwar rhetoric and shoot-from-the-lip style. But who is the real Howard Dean? Is he the left-of-center insurgent being portrayed in the press or the business-friendly fiscal conservative and pragmatic moderate who governed Vermont for 11 years?

Many who worked with Dean are astonished at his current image and comparisons to liberal icons such as George McGovern. "The Howard Dean you are seeing on the national scene is not the Dean that we saw around here for the last decade," says John McClaughry, president of the Ethan Allen Institute, a conservative Vermont think tank. "He's moved sharply left."

Conservative Vermont business leaders praise Dean's record and his unceasing efforts to balance the budget, even though Vermont is the only state where a balanced budget is not constitutionally required. Moreover, they argue that the two most liberal policies adopted during Dean's tenure -- the "civil unions" law and a radical revamping of public school financing -- were instigated by Vermont's ultraliberal Supreme Court rather than Dean. "He was not a left-wing wacko," says Bill Stenger, a Republican and president of Jay Peak Resort, who says he supported Dean because of his "fiscally responsible, socially conscious policies."

Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. When Canada's Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. wanted to build a new manufacturing plant on 700 acres of Vermont farmland in the mid-'90s, for instance, Dean greased the wheels. Husky obtained the necessary permits in near-record time. "He was very hands-on," says an appreciative Dirk Schlimm, the Husky executive in charge of the project.

And when environmentalists tried to limit expansion of snowmaking at ski resorts, "Dean had to show his true colors, and he did -- by insisting on a solution that allowed expanding snowmaking," says Stenger. IBM (IBM ) by far the state's largest private employer, says it got kid-gloves treatment. "We would meet privately with him three to four times a year to discuss our issues," says John O'Kane, manager for government relations at IBM's Essex Junction plant, "and his secretary of commerce would call me once a week just to see how things were going."

Dean also wins accolades for his handling of fiscal policy. "He is a very frugal man," says A. Wayne Roberts, president of Lake Champlain Regional Chamber of Commerce, who worked in the Reagan White House in the '80s. "There is no way in heck he would tolerate a deficit." In fact, Dean resisted pleas from more liberal Democratic legislators to hike spending while pushing through two income tax cuts, paying down the state's debt, and funding the state's "rainy day" reserves. As a result, "we are now one of the few states that is in good shape financially," says Jim Douglas, Dean's Republican successor as governor. In fact, Vermont closed the books on its 2003 fiscal year with a $10.4 million surplus, even as California, Massachusetts, and many other states battle huge deficits.

Dr. Dean gets more mixed reviews for his signature effort to extend health insurance to children and low-income adults. He did that by dramatically increasing Vermont's Medicaid program, quadrupling the number of youngsters it covers. Critics argue that this expansion of government-run health care wasn't adequately funded, and tough regulations drove out many private insurers, reducing competition. Part of the cost was offset by limiting reimbursements to doctors to the point where "they are now far less than the cost of actually providing the services," says Paul Harrington, executive vice-president of the Vermont Medical Society. Still, "Medicaid is on an unsustainable track," warns Governor Douglas, who projects that the program will be losing $150 million a year within five years -- a huge shortfall in a small state, though Vermont is hardly alone when it comes to Medicaid woes.

The most controversial change under Dean's watch was the overhaul of Vermont's traditional system of paying for public schools with local property taxes. The new system shifted funds from rich towns to poor towns through a "sharing pool" and raised the burden on Vermonters earning more than $75,000 a year. It sparked an explosion in education spending, "which is up 40% since 1997 even as the number of students are down 6%," says Douglas -- and a firestorm of protest in wealthy towns such as Stowe. After Douglas took office, the sharing pool was eliminated, property taxes for homeowners were reduced, and the sales tax was boosted to make up for lost revenue, making the Dean education plan less controversial.

On most issues, however, Dean positioned himself as a moderate, well to the right of many members of his own party. To be sure, that was in the context of what is arguably the most liberal state in the country. Conservative critics complain that for all his efforts to help business, Dean never challenged the state's onerous regulations or heavy tax burden. "These policies really discourage development," says Richard Heaps, vice-president of Northern Economic Consulting, who advises many of his clients not to move to Vermont.

Still, Dean had a knack for positioning himself and never lost an election. Those who know him best believe Dean is moving to the left to boost his chances of winning the nomination. "But if he gets the nomination, he'll run back to the center and be more mainstream," predicts Stenger. Says Garrison Nelson, a political science professor at the University of Vermont: "Howard is not a liberal. He's a pro-business, Rockefeller Republican."

Indeed, virtually everyone who has worked with Dean believes he would be a demon at reducing the federal deficit. While balancing the budget and keeping defense expenditures intact, that would leave precious little room for new liberal programs. What it more likely would leave are a lot of dashed expectations among the crowd that so fervently wants the doctor to be in.

By William C. Symonds in Burlington, Vt.YeaAHAHAHAHAHHA

Marada
02-15-2005, 09:55 PM
I truely am a moderate, but when surrounded by a pack of wild (conservative) dogs, all you guys ever see is me knocking down the BS that flies around here.

I am far from the left.

I piss my wife off because I'm moderate. She's pretty far to the left of me, and even she's not the most liberal person in the world.

Problem is that if you complain about bullshit when a Republican is in charge, the Republicans (knowing that much of the complaining is justifiable) have little else to do but attempt to marginalize the messenger.

My question is what good is any of this discussion of where Dean fits? I don't think I'll be shallow enough to vote for a man simply because of a label that CNN or Fox or MSNBC has put on him. What I want to hear are solutions. So tell me, pick a percieved problem and tell me what you would do. Then tell me a politicial that has stated the same thing. Seems to me that if you find one that that will attack a problem in a manner that you feel is the proper course, thats who you vote for. Not whether he or she is left/right/center. Would you agree that complaining is not going to change anything? And that like it or not, we cannot change the face of this country till the next election. So instead of complaining maybe we ought to be expressing our solutions to our elected officials.

jAZ
02-15-2005, 10:45 PM
My question is what good is any of this discussion of where Dean fits? I don't think I'll be shallow enough to vote for a man simply because of a label that CNN or Fox or MSNBC has put on him. What I want to hear are solutions. So tell me, pick a percieved problem and tell me what you would do. Then tell me a politicial that has stated the same thing. Seems to me that if you find one that that will attack a problem in a manner that you feel is the proper course, thats who you vote for. Not whether he or she is left/right/center. Would you agree that complaining is not going to change anything? And that like it or not, we cannot change the face of this country till the next election. So instead of complaining maybe we ought to be expressing our solutions to our elected officials.
Best post on this thread. Hands down.

jAZ
02-15-2005, 10:52 PM
Way to go Titus!! You bring Rather up again and he tucks tail and runs. :) :thumb:
You guys are a riot. Clearly ya don't give 2 shits about discussion. It's mostly about talking shit (however irrational) and jerking the rest of the circle. Ahh well... I know what to expect from this crowd...

Anyway, I'm still waiting for anyone to verify that

1) Bush was or was not AWOL

2) That those documents were or were not fake

As far as I know, Bush was still allegedly AWOL and those documents are allegedly fake.

The one thing that we do know is that Rather was responsible for supervising the story and allowing shoddy journalism to occur. We don't know that those docs were fake. Just as we don't know if Bush was AWOL.

Anyone who has proof of either should contact CBS or the Whitehouse.

Pennywise
02-16-2005, 07:44 AM
This can only be filed under "what were you thinking?" The New York Newsday reported this comment from new DNC Chairman just the other day:

No one expects Dean, famously outspoken, to completely muzzle himself. Dean jokes that the Washington insider's definition of a gaffe is "when you tell the truth and they think you shouldn't have."

During a meeting Friday with the Democratic black caucus, Dean praised black Democrats for their work for the party, then questioned Republicans' ability to rally support from minorities.

"You think the Republican National Committee could get this many people of color in a single room?," Dean asked to laughter.

"Only if they had the hotel staff in here."

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/02/15/122832.php



Nice punchline.

bkkcoh
02-16-2005, 08:03 AM
My question is what good is any of this discussion of where Dean fits? I don't think I'll be shallow enough to vote for a man simply because of a label that CNN or Fox or MSNBC has put on him. What I want to hear are solutions. So tell me, pick a percieved problem and tell me what you would do. Then tell me a politicial that has stated the same thing. Seems to me that if you find one that that will attack a problem in a manner that you feel is the proper course, thats who you vote for. Not whether he or she is left/right/center. Would you agree that complaining is not going to change anything? And that like it or not, we cannot change the face of this country till the next election. So instead of complaining maybe we ought to be expressing our solutions to our elected officials.

The democrats are going to have to change their direction. They will have to stand for something other than being against Bush and the republicans.

They haven't really done anything like that for a long time. Have they?

jAZ
02-16-2005, 08:38 AM
The democrats are going to have to change their direction. They will have to stand for something other than being against Bush and the republicans.

They haven't really done anything like that for a long time. Have they?
You've almost got it right.

They have to be unified by something other than an opposition to Bush.

That only goes so far, and attracts so many people it seems.

But the suggestion that the Democratic Party doesn't stand for anything is ridiculous. You may not agree with principles, and that's your choice... but that's a far cry from not "standing for something other than being against Bush".

bkkcoh
02-16-2005, 08:45 AM
..They have to be unified by something other than an opposition to Bush.

That only goes so far, and attracts so many people it seems.

...

I think the fact that Kerry kept saying that he was against what Bush was saying, but only saying that he had a plan but would go into the details, even the high level aspects, of the plan turned a lot of people off.

....But the suggestion that the Democratic Party doesn't stand for anything is ridiculous. You may not agree with principles, and that's your choice... but that's a far cry from not "standing for something other than being against Bush".

They haven't really run on what they truly stand for, they have been running against what the opposition is running on. I saw a lot of instances in which the candidate didn't run on what he thought, but against what Bush was running on. There were only a few occasions in which Bush didn't state what he intended on doing, instead of being against Kerry.

The only time the dems really ran on their core beliefs was at the DNC, and Bush got a bounce from that. Didn't they?

KCTitus
02-16-2005, 09:02 AM
You guys are a riot. Clearly ya don't give 2 shits about discussion. It's mostly about talking shit (however irrational) and jerking the rest of the circle.

He says after posting an 'article' from an alien abductee's blog...

Once again, the projection amazes me.

Donger
02-16-2005, 09:54 AM
Anyway, I'm still waiting for anyone to verify that

1) Bush was or was not AWOL

2) That those documents were or were not fake

As far as I know, Bush was still allegedly AWOL and those documents are allegedly fake.

Wow. That's nice. So, the burden of proof now rests with the people NOT making the allegations?

Baby Lee
02-16-2005, 09:54 AM
As far as I know, Bush was still allegedly AWOL and those documents are allegedly fake.
And you remain allegedly a pedophile.

Not trying to diss you, but trying to bring home the absurdity of using the word 'allegedly' and expect any traction from it.

And you need to recognize that the documents remain "allegedly" fake simply because they've been discredited to the satisfaction of all, and no one has the passion to either try to revive some semblance of credibility or disprove them to a metaphysical certainty.
Meanwhile, Bush remains 'allegedly' AWOL, because people who hate him still accuse him, but no one has any proof.

Brock
02-16-2005, 10:19 AM
As far as I know, Bush was still allegedly AWOL and those documents are allegedly fake.

Just as we don't know if Bush was AWOL.


You're a complete dork, jIZ. And you're not afraid to let everyone know it, which is the sad part.