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Mr. Kotter
02-23-2005, 10:15 AM
Interesting.

Pope's Comments on Gay marriage


ROME, Italy (Reuters) -- Homosexual marriages are part of "a new ideology of evil" that is insidiously threatening society, Pope John Paul says in his newly published book.

In "Memory and Identity," the Pope also calls abortion a "legal extermination" comparable to attempts to wipe out Jews and other groups in the 20th century.

He also reveals that he is convinced the Turkish gunman who shot him in 1981 did not act alone and suggests that the former Communist Bloc may have been behind the plot to kill him.

The 84-year-old Pontiff's book, a highly philosophical and intricate work on the nature of good and evil, is based on conversations with philosopher friends in 1993 and later with some of his aides.

In one section about the role of lawmakers, the Pope takes another swipe at gay marriages when he refers to "pressures" on the European Parliament to allow them.

"It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man," he writes.

The Pope's fifth book for mass circulation, issued by Italian publisher Rizzoli, sparked controversy in Germany and elsewhere after Jewish groups protested against leaked excerpts comparing the Holocaust to abortion.

In at least two sections of the book, the Pope talks about the Nazi attempt to exterminate Jews and the wholesale slaughter of political opponents by Communist regimes after World War Two.

'Legal extermination'
In following paragraphs he says that legally elected parliaments in formerly totalitarian countries were today allowing what he called new forms of evil and new exterminations.

"There is still, however a legal extermination of human beings who have been conceived but not yet born," he writes.

"And this time we are talking about an extermination which has been allowed by nothing less than democratically elected parliaments where one normally hears appeals for the civil progress of society and all humanity," he writes.

In Germany, a leader of the country's Central Council of Jews called the comparison unacceptable.

At a news conference presenting the book, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican's top doctrinal official, dismissed the Jewish charges.

Ratzinger said the Pope "was not trying to put the Holocaust and abortion on the same plane" but only warning that evil lurked everywhere, "even in liberal political systems."

In another section, the Pope describes at length the assassination attempt on May 13, 1981, when Turkish gunman Mehmet Ali Agca shot and nearly killed him in St Peter's Square.

Of Agca, the Pope writes the assassination attempt was "not his initiative, someone else masterminded it and someone else commissioned it."

Two trials in the early 1980s failed to prove prosecutors' suspicions that Bulgaria's secret services had masterminded a plot to kill the Pope on behalf of the Soviet Union.

At the time the Polish Pope was a strong supporter of the Solidarity trade union in his native Poland and the Soviet Union saw Solidarity as a threat to the stability of the communist bloc.

The Pope says the assassination attempt against him was perhaps "the last convulsion" of the ideologies of the 20th century -- a clear reference to the Communist bloc.



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Copyright 2005 Reuters. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

siberian khatru
02-23-2005, 10:18 AM
I heard if you eat Pope Rocks and drink Pepsi at the same time, your stomach will explode.

Mr. Kotter
02-23-2005, 10:19 AM
I heard if you eat Pope Rocks and drink Pepsi at the same time, your stomach will explode.

That would be way cool. :hmmm:

gochiefs? wanna volunteer to try it?

Duck Dog
02-23-2005, 10:22 AM
I heard if you eat Pope Rocks and drink Pepsi at the same time, your stomach will explode.


Wasn't that myth busted? :hmmm:

Saulbadguy
02-23-2005, 10:25 AM
Newly published book? Yeah right. He can barely put a sentence together anymore, and he writes a book?

Duck Dog
02-23-2005, 10:25 AM
"It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man," he writes.

I wonder what he thinks about grown men raping little boys? I suppose that's OK.

siberian khatru
02-23-2005, 10:26 AM
Wasn't that myth busted? :hmmm:

No, man, that's how Mikey from the Life cereal commercials died.

Duck Dog
02-23-2005, 10:47 AM
No, man, that's how Mikey from the Life cereal commercials died.

Seriously? I thought the Myth Busters busted that?

siberian khatru
02-23-2005, 10:48 AM
Seriously? I thought the Myth Busters busted that?

Seriously, are you being serious? I can't believe you're taking me seriously.

Saulbadguy
02-23-2005, 11:01 AM
Seriously? I thought the Myth Busters busted that?
ROFL

memyselfI
02-23-2005, 11:01 AM
Newly published book? Yeah right. He can barely put a sentence together anymore, and he writes a book?

ROFL

I'm sure both will make sense to some people...

picasso
02-23-2005, 11:22 AM
Homophobes talking about the Popes rocks?
He does have infinite wisdom ya know. I mean the priests in the catholic church are about as much in the closet as the Bush administration.

Baby Lee
02-23-2005, 11:36 AM
http://animatedtv.about.com/library/graphics/nelson_small.jpg
Ha ha!! The Pope says you need to think of gays as EVIL!!

whoman69
02-23-2005, 11:46 AM
This book could not have been written by the Pope. It was most likely put together by the group that has been running the church since he has been essentially an invalid. The catholic church wipes its hands of priests who sexually abuse boys, believes that any form of birth control besides the rhythm method is immoral, believes that a woman cannot give advice on the same level a man can, is against capital punishment, and is generally in the 19th century still. The catholic church also took a neutral approach to naziism despite the holocaust. Forgive me if I say the church is out of touch.
While I cannot approve of a religious ceremony to consecrate a gay marriage, they should have the option to have a legal equivelent.

Mr. Kotter
02-23-2005, 12:06 PM
This book could not have been written by the Pope. It was most likely put together by the group that has been running the church since he has been essentially an invalid. The catholic church wipes its hands of priests who sexually abuse boys, believes that any form of birth control besides the rhythm method is immoral, believes that a woman cannot give advice on the same level a man can, is against capital punishment, and is generally in the 19th century still. The catholic church also took a neutral approach to naziism despite the holocaust. Forgive me if I say the church is out of touch.
While I cannot approve of a religious ceremony to consecrate a gay marriage, they should have the option to have a legal equivelent.

You and a few others apparently have difficulty grasping the changes in the church over the past couple of decades. It's understandable. Religious bigotry is the only acceptable bigotry anymore. FTR, I'm with you on the "civil union" idea.

Mr. Kotter
02-23-2005, 12:08 PM
Homophobes talking about the Popes rocks?
He does have infinite wisdom ya know. I mean the priests in the catholic church are about as much in the closet as the Bush administration.

Religious stereotyping and bigotry is en vogue, though....eh?
:)

BigMeatballDave
02-23-2005, 12:50 PM
Newly published book? Yeah right. He can barely put a sentence together anymore, and he writes a book?I think he's dead. He's just propped up like a marionette...

Duck Dog
02-23-2005, 01:31 PM
Seriously, are you being serious? I can't believe you're taking me seriously.

Seriously, I'll never take you seriously again.

siberian khatru
02-23-2005, 01:54 PM
Seriously, I'll never take you seriously again.

Surely you jest. :p :)

Logical
02-23-2005, 01:54 PM
Kotter,

You do realize that the Pope's views are not really his but of a committee of Vatican scholars who publish as mouthpieces for the Church using the Pope as cover. The Pope who is/was a fine man is basically now senile and just a figurehead.

Calcountry
02-23-2005, 01:56 PM
I wonder what he thinks about grown men raping little boys? I suppose that's OK.I think they should let their priests get married TO WOMEN. Perhaps they can control their urges that way.

I mean, its in the Bible. "If you can't control yourself then marry, there is no sin in this." A loose paraphrase, I believe it is found in Timothy or something.

Calcountry
02-23-2005, 01:57 PM
Seriously, are you being serious? I can't believe you're taking me seriously.I think he has been misconstrued.

Mr. Laz
02-23-2005, 02:00 PM
the pope is a senile 90 yr old fart



he is expressing religious beliefs which is fine for church


the U.S. government is not suppose to govern from church pulpit

Mr. Kotter
02-23-2005, 02:11 PM
Kotter,

You do realize that the Pope's views are not really his but of a committee of Vatican scholars who publish as mouthpieces for the Church using the Pope as cover. The Pope who is/was a fine man is basically now senile and just a figurehead.

You know this to be a verifiable fact? :hmmm:

He may be senile, but my understanding is his intellect is still in tact. Perhaps that has changed with his most recent illnesses. Regardless, I suspect the book accurately portrays his beliefs--so what's the point? :shrug:

whoman69
02-23-2005, 03:40 PM
You and a few others apparently have difficulty grasping the changes in the church over the past couple of decades. It's understandable. Religious bigotry is the only acceptable bigotry anymore. FTR, I'm with you on the "civil union" idea.
I notice you didn't refute any of my points, just pulled out the bigotry trump card. If anything over the past couple decades of Pope John-Paul IIs reign has been even more restrictive and conservative.
Its common knowlege, admitted by the church, that many of the day to day functions are no longer handled by the pope. I asked my wife why they don't let the Pope retire. He is not physically up to the job anymore and he has done his service. Unfortunately its an appointment until death. Even if he were to go into a coma he could not be removed from office.

Logical
02-23-2005, 03:48 PM
You know this to be a verifiable fact? :hmmm:

He may be senile, but my understanding is his intellect is still in tact. Perhaps that has changed with his most recent illnesses. Regardless, I suspect the book accurately portrays his beliefs--so what's the point? :shrug:I know for a fact that the proclamations like that one for years have been written by a council and published under the name of the Pope. I have no reason to believe that one should be different. As far as his senility you must be joking anyone who has seen him or heard him in a public address knows that he can now barely function.

Duck Dog
02-23-2005, 04:26 PM
Surely you jest. :p :)


And stop calling me Surely. :)

KCWolfman
02-23-2005, 05:14 PM
Newly published book? Yeah right. He can barely put a sentence together anymore, and he writes a book?
You and D-enise seem to post without issue.

KCWolfman
02-23-2005, 05:17 PM
I think they should let their priests get married TO WOMEN. Perhaps they can control their urges that way.

I mean, its in the Bible. "If you can't control yourself then marry, there is no sin in this." A loose paraphrase, I believe it is found in Timothy or something.
Baptist married ministers sexually assault children. The Catholic Church has a problem not because of celibacy, but rather because they are celibate. Homosexuals and pedophiles can hide without having to answer why they aren't married.

I agree changes need to occur, but I believe it should be through mental evaluations and screenings, not changing a basic and pragmatic pillar.

KCWolfman
02-23-2005, 05:18 PM
I know for a fact that the proclamations like that one for years have been written by a council and published under the name of the Pope. I have no reason to believe that one should be different. As far as his senility you must be joking anyone who has seen him or heard him in a public address knows that he can now barely function.
The book is a compilation of material written by the Pope over several decades.

KCFalcon59
02-23-2005, 08:40 PM
Baptist married ministers sexually assault children. The Catholic Church has a problem not because of celibacy, but rather because they are celibate. Homosexuals and pedophiles can hide without having to answer why they aren't married.

I agree changes need to occur, but I believe it should be through mental evaluations and screenings, not changing a basic and pragmatic pillar.

So do rabbi's, clerics, and leaders of most faiths and cults. This problem doesn't reside in the Catholic Church only.

Pitt Gorilla
02-24-2005, 12:07 AM
Baptist married ministers sexually assault children. The Catholic Church has a problem not because of celibacy, but rather because they are celibate. Homosexuals and pedophiles can hide without having to answer why they aren't married.

I agree changes need to occur, but I believe it should be through mental evaluations and screenings, not changing a basic and pragmatic pillar.Would mandated castration solve the problem? Hey, you wanna be a priest, you lose your nuts; it's not like you were going to use them anyway...

DanT
02-24-2005, 12:30 AM
God bless the Pope!

DanT
02-24-2005, 12:48 AM
Here's a story from catholic.net on John Paul II's new book:

http://www.catholic.net/global_catholic_news/template_news.phtml?channel_id=2&news_id=66800

Book Deals With Pope's "Inner Being," Says Aide
ROME, FEB. 23, 2005 (Zenit.org).- John Paul II's new book, "Memory and Identity," is a biography of his "inner being," says Vatican spokesman Joaquín Navarro Valls.

The director of the Vatican press office made that assessment Tuesday when presenting the volume to the press.

He explained that the book was the result of conversations the Pope had with Polish philosophers Jozef Tischner and Krzysztof Michalsk, in the gardens of Castel Gandolfo, the summer papal residence, in 1993. The Pope has made some changes and additions to the material recorded at that time.

"Why did the Pope wait so long to publish it?" Navarro Valls asked rhetorically.

"He wished to have time to reflect, to perceive the dimensions of the historical events, and to go to the root" of the issues, the spokesman said.

Navarro Valls called the book a "biography" of John Paul II's "inner being."

"It has two parts, one is more theoretical and consists of 10 chapters; the other has more recent historical references," he said.

"Throughout the book he addresses the problem of evil, more specifically, the coexistence of good and evil, not a physical but a moral evil, stemming from free human decision," the Vatican spokesman added.

The Pope suggests that one should emerge from "ideologies to understand them," and he encourages his readers to see how evil is limited. "God has set limits to evil," noted Navarro Valls, paraphrasing the Holy Father.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger amplified this view of evil by reminding his listeners that "redemption is the key word of all of John Paul II's thought" and, from this perspective, "evil becomes an instrument for good."

Navarro Valls added: "I don't know if the Pope is writing anything else. It wouldn't surprise me, as he has written much all his life."

KCWolfman
02-24-2005, 06:33 AM
Would mandated castration solve the problem? Hey, you wanna be a priest, you lose your nuts; it's not like you were going to use them anyway...
I guess.

Perhaps we should castrate all males to prevent rape.

While we are at it, we should separate all children from their mothers to prevent them from drowning the infants as the woman did in Texas.

whoman69
02-24-2005, 09:50 AM
Would mandated castration solve the problem? Hey, you wanna be a priest, you lose your nuts; it's not like you were going to use them anyway...
How about a different solution. Allow men to be human beings. Sex is a natural function like breathing. I don't think the fact that I have sex with my wife takes away my ability to be close to God. Its an outdated policy that has never really been adhered to. Its costing our young, and that is unforgivable.

Pitt Gorilla
02-24-2005, 02:34 PM
[QUOTE=KCWolfman]I guess.

Perhaps we should castrate all males to prevent rape.

QUOTE]Most men have use for their nuts; priests don't. There is no comparison.

Iowanian
02-24-2005, 02:37 PM
I somehow knew this was going to be nothing but a good Catholic Bashin'.

Go ahead and have at the guy, who has given his entire life to the Church and Charity, and isn't doing well again.

Iowanian
02-24-2005, 02:58 PM
If some of you bashes wish to step back, and take an objective look at the guy, here is a pretty decent link from CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/pope/

Mr. Kotter
02-24-2005, 03:19 PM
[QUOTE=KCWolfman]I guess.

Perhaps we should castrate all males to prevent rape.

QUOTE]Most men have use for their nuts; priests don't. There is no comparison.

So you'll allow rapists to keep their nuts for future use, but having individuals knowingly choose a life of celibacy shouldn't be tolerated...? :hmmm:

Cochise
02-24-2005, 03:20 PM
I somehow knew this was going to be nothing but a good Catholic Bashin'.

Go ahead and have at the guy, who has given his entire life to the Church and Charity, and isn't doing well again.

I have a pretty dim view of the Catholic church as a whole, but the way people bash on the guy is pretty weak, I think. The problem is at the level of local parishoners and maybe up to Cardinals. I doubt that the 300 year old pope was actively participating in some kind of cover up.

Cochise
02-24-2005, 03:21 PM
How about a different solution. Allow men to be human beings. Sex is a natural function like breathing. I don't think the fact that I have sex with my wife takes away my ability to be close to God. Its an outdated policy that has never really been adhered to. Its costing our young, and that is unforgivable.

Most churches don't have this policy. There's no vow of celibacy in any protestant denomination that I'm aware of, and every minister I have ever been around has been married and had a family.

Iowanian
02-24-2005, 03:51 PM
Priests are celebate because the church believes that the Priest is Married to the Church, and should be devoted only to the church.

What I find the most ironic, is that the people doing the most squealing about what the "Catholic Church should do".........aren't Catholic, and aren't affected. Catholics aren't knocking on your door at 8am on saturday. The Membership will eventually work the mess out. The majority of things heard about today, happend 30 years ago or more.

yeah.......some assholes have wiggled their way in.......but the same thing can be said for any profession. Look how many female Teachers have been raping 13 year old boys lately..........It doesn't make Schools, Teachers, Principals, Superitendants ALL bad.

Taco John
02-24-2005, 04:00 PM
So you'll allow rapists to keep their nuts for future use, but having individuals knowingly choose a life of celibacy shouldn't be tolerated...? :hmmm:



Wolfman said "All Males." Not just rapists... Keep up.

KCWolfman
02-24-2005, 04:59 PM
[QUOTE=KCWolfman]I guess.

Perhaps we should castrate all males to prevent rape.

QUOTE]Most men have use for their nuts; priests don't. There is no comparison.
Go sand off your nipples, then we can talk.

They serve no purpose.

KCWolfman
02-24-2005, 05:00 PM
Wolfman said "All Males." Not just rapists... Keep up.
You don't have balls, you have no rights on this topic.

KCWolfman
02-24-2005, 05:01 PM
Most churches don't have this policy. There's no vow of celibacy in any protestant denomination that I'm aware of, and every minister I have ever been around has been married and had a family.
So if you choose not to be celibate and still want to be a minister, you have that option?

Wow, I guess some people just feel the need to mandate the religion of others.

Logical
02-24-2005, 05:05 PM
I somehow knew this was going to be nothing but a good Catholic Bashin'.

Go ahead and have at the guy, who has given his entire life to the Church and Charity, and isn't doing well again.

Just to be clear, I was not bashing on the Pope. His senility cannot be helped it is just a result of his age. I have huge respect for this Pope the things he did in his life for his country and his Church deserve tremendous respect.

Iowanian
02-24-2005, 08:16 PM
Where does ANYONE say that the guy has lost his Mind and functional thinking?

He has advanced Parkinsons and is getting older.......but that doesn't automatically make him a raiduh fan.

The Man has been nothing but a pathmaker....he challenged the Communists from within the curtain....he brought the Catholic and Jewish faiths closer together and attempted to mend fences, he promoted Healthy marraige, worked against abused children and women as a priest. He spent his life helping people.

If you don't believe the faith, let it go.......no one is recruiting you, no one is asking you for money for the Largest Charity in the world. It doesn't hurt or affect you as a non-believer.

The man had a trach put in today and is probably nearing death.

marsaray
02-24-2005, 08:23 PM
Where does ANYONE say that the guy has lost his Mind and functional thinking?

He has advanced Parkinsons and is getting older.......but that doesn't automatically make him a raiduh fan.

The Man has been nothing but a pathmaker....he challenged the Communists from within the curtain....he brought the Catholic and Jewish faiths closer together and attempted to mend fences, he promoted Healthy marraige, worked against abused children and women as a priest. He spent his life helping people.

If you don't believe the faith, let it go.......no one is recruiting you, no one is asking you for money for the Largest Charity in the world. It doesn't hurt or affect you as a non-believer.

The man had a trach put in today and is probably nearing death.
I find the roman catholic religion funny because of certain priests.

KCWolfman
02-24-2005, 08:25 PM
I find the roman catholic religion funny because of certain priests.
I find teenagers funny because of certain killers and molesters.

Your reason is hardly justified.

marsaray
02-24-2005, 08:29 PM
I find teenagers funny because of certain killers and molesters.

Your reason is hardly justified.
I assure you i am not a killer.

KCWolfman
02-24-2005, 08:30 PM
I assure you i am not a killer.
I assure you most priests are not pedophiles.

marsaray
02-24-2005, 08:33 PM
I assure you most priests are not pedophiles.
That last one went right over your head.

Pitt Gorilla
02-25-2005, 12:06 AM
Go sand off your nipples, then we can talk.

They serve no purpose.They also don't make me want to f*ck. Think, then try again.

Duck Dog
02-25-2005, 08:04 AM
Let me get this straight. All priests should be castrated because of a few peds? Or they should be castrated because they do not need their testies for procreation?

:rolleyes:

Iowanian
02-25-2005, 08:45 AM
The Most Ironic part, is that previously, when I've said that "ALL Child Molesters should be castrated"....several of the libs, probably the same haters on threads like these, have said that is "inhuman and that molestation isn't about sex, its power, and they'll just get meaner"

patteeu
02-25-2005, 10:03 AM
I notice you didn't refute any of my points, just pulled out the bigotry trump card. If anything over the past couple decades of Pope John-Paul IIs reign has been even more restrictive and conservative.
Its common knowlege, admitted by the church, that many of the day to day functions are no longer handled by the pope. I asked my wife why they don't let the Pope retire. He is not physically up to the job anymore and he has done his service. Unfortunately its an appointment until death. Even if he were to go into a coma he could not be removed from office.

Maybe you should stop while you are behind. You obviously don't know what you are talking about. The Pope can retire if he wants to. The overwhelming weight of tradition and the Pope's own statements make it very unlikely, but it can be done.

patteeu
02-25-2005, 10:04 AM
I know for a fact that the proclamations like that one for years have been written by a council and published under the name of the Pope. I have no reason to believe that one should be different. As far as his senility you must be joking anyone who has seen him or heard him in a public address knows that he can now barely function.

His body is physically crippled. It is impossible to know from this distance whether he is senile.

*edit* By "distance" I mean the fact that we don't get to see much of him or ask him questions or hear him converse. I don't mean the number of miles between here and Vatican City. */edit*