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View Full Version : Why are we going nuts over Terri Schiavo?


alnorth
02-23-2005, 09:53 AM
I like to think that I'm a fairly reliable conservative Republican, but I have to disagree with the party on this issue. I dont see why its such a controversial issue at all, unless you are generally opposed to medical "Do Not Resuscitate" requests.

Terri Schiavo is a vegetable, and her doctors say there is no hope of recovery. I know we all can cite isolated rare miracle cases where someone recovers after decades of coma, but whatever. I know I would not want to be kept alive in that position. I'm not going to go as far as to claim that a majority of Americans would object to being kept alive as a vegetable because I simply dont know, but its a hell of a lot of people.

Terri never wrote down a "what if" scenario about what to do in case of brain-death. OK, fine. I have no problem with letting the husband make the call, and his word should overrule whatever the parents want. We arent East Asia, where the parents rule supreme, and a new married couple is expected to move in with the parents and live under their thumb. In our culture, when you get married, the parents take a step back and are second to your spouse and your new immediate family, and our laws reflect that aspect of our culture, so we need to honor it.

Michael is now moving on with a new woman? I dont have a problem with it, his wife has been essentially dead for years now, just how long do you want him to grieve? He said that Terri told him she would not want to be kept alive if this happened to her, I believe him. He has the authority to give a "Do not Resuscitate" order in my eyes, and we should respect that.

Thoughts?

Donger
02-23-2005, 09:56 AM
I like to think that I'm a fairly reliable conservative Republican, but I have to disagree with the party on this issue. I dont see why its such a controversial issue at all, unless you are generally opposed to medical "Do Not Resuscitate" requests.

Terri Schiavo is a vegetable, and her doctors say there is no hope of recovery. I know we all can cite isolated rare miracle cases where someone recovers after decades of coma, but whatever. I know I would not want to be kept alive in that position. I'm not going to go as far as to claim that a majority of Americans would object to being kept alive as a vegetable because I simply dont know, but its a hell of a lot of people.

Terri never wrote down a "what if" scenario about what to do in case of brain-death. OK, fine. I have no problem with letting the husband make the call, and his word should overrule whatever the parents want. We arent East Asia, where the parents rule supreme, and a new married couple is expected to move in with the parents and live under their thumb. In our culture, when you get married, the parents take a step back and are second to your spouse and your new immediate family, and our laws reflect that aspect of our culture, so we need to honor it.

Michael is now moving on with a new woman? I dont have a problem with it, his wife has been essentially dead for years now, just how long do you want him to grieve? He said that Terri told him she would not want to be kept alive if this happened to her, I believe him. He has the authority to give a "Do not Resuscitate" order in my eyes, and we should respect that.

Thoughts?

She's not in a vegetative state.

alnorth
02-23-2005, 09:58 AM
She's not in a vegetative state.

Doctors have testified that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope for recovery and would live no more than a week or two without getting food and water through the tube inserted into her abdomen.

Donger
02-23-2005, 10:01 AM
MYTH: Terri is PVS (Persistent vegetative state)
FACT: The definition of PVS in Florida Statue 765.101:
Persistent vegetative state means a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is:

(a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of ANY kind.
(b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.

Terri's behavior does not meet the medical or statutory definition of persistent vegetative state. Terri responds to stimuli, tries to communicate verbally, follows limited commands, laughs or cries in interaction with loved ones, physically distances herself from irritating or painful stimulation and watches loved ones as they move around her. None of these behaviors are simple reflexes and are, instead, voluntary and cognitive. Though Terri has limitations, she does interact purposefully with her environment.

Amnorix
02-23-2005, 10:02 AM
Because the right wing religious nuts are nuts.

memyselfI
02-23-2005, 10:05 AM
I like to think that I'm a fairly reliable conservative Republican, but I have to disagree with the party on this issue. I dont see why its such a controversial issue at all, unless you are generally opposed to medical "Do Not Resuscitate" requests.

Terri Schiavo is a vegetable, and her doctors say there is no hope of recovery. I know we all can cite isolated rare miracle cases where someone recovers after decades of coma, but whatever. I know I would not want to be kept alive in that position. I'm not going to go as far as to claim that a majority of Americans would object to being kept alive as a vegetable because I simply dont know, but its a hell of a lot of people.

Terri never wrote down a "what if" scenario about what to do in case of brain-death. OK, fine. I have no problem with letting the husband make the call, and his word should overrule whatever the parents want. We arent East Asia, where the parents rule supreme, and a new married couple is expected to move in with the parents and live under their thumb. In our culture, when you get married, the parents take a step back and are second to your spouse and your new immediate family, and our laws reflect that aspect of our culture, so we need to honor it.

Michael is now moving on with a new woman? I dont have a problem with it, his wife has been essentially dead for years now, just how long do you want him to grieve? He said that Terri told him she would not want to be kept alive if this happened to her, I believe him. He has the authority to give a "Do not Resuscitate" order in my eyes, and we should respect that.

Thoughts?

Me thinks you need to learn more about the case before you spew an opinion...


Bottom line here, is the Xhusband's case is based on heresay and backed up with his brother and sister in law. To me, that is not nearly enough of proof to pull the plug on this woman's life. Especially, if she has family who are willing to pay for her care and take the responsibility for her life off of the husband's hands.

I think the guy is on a power trip. He's moved on with his life. I do not understand why he won't allow Terri's family to just have her and be done with this.

siberian khatru
02-23-2005, 10:13 AM
Bottom line here, is the Xhusband's case is based on heresay and backed up with his brother and sister in law. To me, that is not nearly enough of proof to pull the plug on this woman's life. Especially, if she has family who are willing to pay for her care and take the responsibility for her life off of the husband's hands.

I think the guy is on a power trip. He's moved on with his life. I do not understand why he won't allow Terri's family to just have her and be done with this.

Surprisingly, you and I have always been on the same side of this. But let me play devil's advocate: Maybe he's fighting so hard to kill her because that really was her wish and he truly believes in doing what she wanted -- that he truly is honoring her and her memory by doing this.

Now, if it were me and my wife's family was ADAMANT to the point of going to all these courts to oppose me, I think I'd say, "Fine, you take care of her. Good luck. But I'm telling you, this isn't what she wanted. That will be on your conscience. I'm done with this. Goodbye."

bkkcoh
02-23-2005, 10:19 AM
Surprisingly, you and I have always been on the same side of this. But let me play devil's advocate: Maybe he's fighting so hard to kill her because that really was her wish and he truly believes in doing what she wanted -- that he truly is honoring her and her memory by doing this.

Now, if it were me and my wife's family was ADAMANT to the point of going to all these courts to oppose me, I think I'd say, "Fine, you take care of her. Good luck. But I'm telling you, this isn't what she wanted. That will be on your conscience. I'm done with this. Goodbye."

I would think you would have to truly look at his actions since this event happened. Has he acted like he is looking out for her best interest. He already has another women and family. They was abuse in the marriage and it was mentioned that he was the cause of her state of being.

It would be a very difficult situation to go through being the parents of a child in Terry's position.

memyselfI
02-23-2005, 10:22 AM
Surprisingly, you and I have always been on the same side of this. But let me play devil's advocate: Maybe he's fighting so hard to kill her because that really was her wish and he truly believes in doing what she wanted -- that he truly is honoring her and her memory by doing this.

Now, if it were me and my wife's family was ADAMANT to the point of going to all these courts to oppose me, I think I'd say, "Fine, you take care of her. Good luck. But I'm telling you, this isn't what she wanted. That will be on your conscience. I'm done with this. Goodbye."

I think what you would do is EXACTLY what he should be doing. He's fought the good fight 'for' her and he has no reason to feel like her wishes were not attempted. His conscience could be crystal clear.

Amnorix
02-23-2005, 10:22 AM
On reviewing some websites and stuff, I see why the case is complicated. Indeed, she doesn't appear to be in a vegetative state but is responsive to at least some stimuli.

It's unfortunate, but if the family wants to care for her and the husband wants to move on with his life, he should rpobably just get a divorce.

Multiple videos showing Terri Shiavo interacting to a degree found here:

http://hyscience.typepad.com/hyscience/2005/02/the_video_micha.html

siberian khatru
02-23-2005, 10:23 AM
On reviewing some websites and stuff, I see why the case is complicated. Indeed, she doesn't appear to be in a vegetative state but is responsive to at least some stimuli.

It's unfortunate, but if the family wants to care for her and the husband wants to move on with his life, he should rpobably just get a divorce.

Multiple videos showing Terri Shiavo interacting to a degree found here:

http://hyscience.typepad.com/hyscience/2005/02/the_video_micha.html

That's a far better post than your disappointing first one. :p

memyselfI
02-23-2005, 10:24 AM
They was abuse in the marriage and it was mentioned that he was the cause of her state of being.



Maybe he's afraid an autopsy might show something... :hmmm:

Amnorix
02-23-2005, 10:25 AM
I would think you would have to truly look at his actions since this event happened. Has he acted like he is looking out for her best interest. He already has another women and family. They was abuse in the marriage and it was mentioned that he was the cause of her state of being.

For the record, my stunning 10 minutes of research seems to indicate that rumors of abuse are just that, nothing more than rumors.

It's true he now has 2 kids by another woman. He should just divorce Terri and move on.

Amnorix
02-23-2005, 10:26 AM
That's a far better post than your disappointing first one. :p

Never let it be said that I never change my mind. I will now cite to this incident for the rest of my life to prove otherwise anytime I'm accused of being the stubborn, pigheaded bastard that I am. err....wait, I mean... :)

Amnorix
02-23-2005, 10:27 AM
Maybe he's afraid an autopsy might show something... :hmmm:

err...then wouldn't he want to delay her death?

Baby Lee
02-23-2005, 10:30 AM
There is something infinitely more macabre about starving someone to death, as opposed to our more conventional conception of turning off life support.

would live no more than a week or two without getting food and water through the tube inserted into her abdomen.
That's one way to write it. Another is, 'it will take up to two weeks for her to die from malnutrition, once denied sustenance.'

memyselfI
02-23-2005, 10:33 AM
err...then wouldn't he want to delay her death?

You would think. But he seems like a moron. :p

Cochise
02-23-2005, 10:34 AM
What's there to go nuts about?

Do we routinely starve retarded children to death?

I don't see the difference between that kind of a situation and what we have here.

Baby Lee
02-23-2005, 10:38 AM
What's there to go nuts about?

Do we routinely starve retarded children to death?

I don't see the difference between that kind of a situation and what we have here.
Is it sick that my initial thought was "aren't tards usually chubby little buggers?"


Yeah, I thought so. :banghead:

Cochise
02-23-2005, 10:45 AM
Is it sick that my initial thought was "aren't tards usually chubby little buggers?"

Yeah, I thought so. :banghead:

Well, when I was in grade school they seemd to be rewarded with food all the time.

Donger
02-23-2005, 10:46 AM
Because the right wing religious nuts are nuts.

Huh? Are you at all familiar with this case Amnorix?

Amnorix
02-23-2005, 10:47 AM
Huh? Are you at all familiar with this case Amnorix?

See my subsequent posts.

Donger
02-23-2005, 10:49 AM
See my subsequent posts.

Heh. Yes, I've read them now. But, what was the reason for your initial utterance?

KCFalcon59
02-23-2005, 10:49 AM
http://www.terrisfight.org/

FACT: In 1992, Terri was awarded nearly one million dollars by a malpractice jury and an out-of-court malpractice settlement which was designated for future medical expenses. Of these funds, less than $50,000 remains today. The financial records revealing how Terri’s medical fund money is managed are SEALED from inspection. Court records, however, show that Judge Greer has approved the spending down of Terri’s medical fund on Schiavo’s attorney’s fees - though it was expressly awarded to Terri for her medical care. Schiavo’s primary attorney, George Felos, has received upwards of $400,000 dollars since Schiavo hired him. This same attorney, at the expense of Terri’s medical fund, publicly likened Terri to a “houseplant” and has used Terri’s case on national television to promote his newly published book.

Atty George Felos $397,249.99

To me something has gone wrong if this judge is awarding money meant for her care to this attorney.

siberian khatru
02-23-2005, 10:50 AM
Heh. Yes, I've read them now. But, what was the reason for your initial utterance?

The concentration of Lombardi Trophies emits powerful radiation which can affect brain synapses.

Cochise
02-23-2005, 10:59 AM
From what I have read about this husband I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire. Raiding her medical fund to pay his lawyer fees in trying to get her feeding tube removed so she starves to death. What a piece of Raiders .

Amnorix
02-23-2005, 11:03 AM
Heh. Yes, I've read them now. But, what was the reason for your initial utterance?
Lack of familiarity with the particulars of her case.

or, radiation from the three Lombardis. One or the other...

(aside to SK -- bastidge! :LOL: )

alnorth
02-23-2005, 11:05 AM
When I described her as a vegetable, I didnt have any legal definitions in mind, I was using just using common sense. Regardless of what reactions you may cite that may or may not indicate anything resembling intelligence that is left in this sad shell of a once-active person, there is, at the very least, some disagreement in the medical community over whether Terri is brain-dead.

To me, thats pretty much irrelevant anyway. Her condition now should be good enough if she didnt want heroic measures performed on her. Terri's husband says she wouldnt want to be kept alive, I dont see why we should object. If you are on the very edge of brain-death with just some vague unclear responces to stimuli, I still wouldnt want to be kept alive, and a hell of a lot of other people wouldnt either. Maybe Terri is a member of that group, and maybe she isnt. We cant make that determination of what she wanted with 100% certainty, but according to our culture, her spouse has got to be trusted as the next-best thing to an expert into what Terri would want, even above her own parents.

As for the whole starvation thing, you really need to get over your visceral reaction. Starvation is horrible only because we imagine someone slowly feeling themselves growing weaker and feeling more pain and discomfort. She wouldnt be aware of any of this at all, to this shell who used to be Terri, it would be the same as heart failure in her sleep.

Donger
02-23-2005, 11:07 AM
Lack of familiarity with the particulars of her case.

or, radiation from the three Lombardis. One or the other...

(aside to SK -- bastidge! :LOL: )

And you just assumed that it was about right-wing, religious nutjobs?

alnorth
02-23-2005, 11:07 AM
From what I have read about this husband I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire. Raiding her medical fund to pay his lawyer fees in trying to get her feeding tube removed so she starves to death. What a piece of ****.

WHY!?!?!?!

Imagine for a moment that Terri looked Michael in the eyes a few years ago and told him "if I'm ever in anything resembling a coma or a vegetative state, then I want to die, Michael." This is essentially what he is saying, whatever words she used to express that wish.

If that is the case, then using her medical award to carry out her dying wish, is definitely a valid use of those funds.

Donger
02-23-2005, 11:09 AM
As for the whole starvation thing, you really need to get over your visceral reaction. Starvation is horrible only because we imagine someone slowly feeling themselves growing weaker and feeling more pain and discomfort. She wouldnt be aware of any of this at all, to this shell who used to be Terri, it would be the same as heart failure in her sleep.

She wouldn't be aware of starving to death? How do you know that?

memyselfI
02-23-2005, 11:10 AM
http://www.terrisfight.org/

FACT: In 1992, Terri was awarded nearly one million dollars by a malpractice jury and an out-of-court malpractice settlement which was designated for future medical expenses. Of these funds, less than $50,000 remains today. The financial records revealing how Terri’s medical fund money is managed are SEALED from inspection. Court records, however, show that Judge Greer has approved the spending down of Terri’s medical fund on Schiavo’s attorney’s fees - though it was expressly awarded to Terri for her medical care. Schiavo’s primary attorney, George Felos, has received upwards of $400,000 dollars since Schiavo hired him. This same attorney, at the expense of Terri’s medical fund, publicly likened Terri to a “houseplant” and has used Terri’s case on national television to promote his newly published book.

Atty George Felos $397,249.99

To me something has gone wrong if this judge is awarding money meant for her care to this attorney.

This entire case smells a big rat...

WilliamTheIrish
02-23-2005, 11:11 AM
http://www.terrisfight.org/

FACT: In 1992, Terri was awarded nearly one million dollars by a malpractice jury and an out-of-court malpractice settlement which was designated for future medical expenses. Of these funds, less than $50,000 remains today. The financial records revealing how Terri’s medical fund money is managed are SEALED from inspection. Court records, however, show that Judge Greer has approved the spending down of Terri’s medical fund on Schiavo’s attorney’s fees - though it was expressly awarded to Terri for her medical care. Schiavo’s primary attorney, George Felos, has received upwards of $400,000 dollars since Schiavo hired him. This same attorney, at the expense of Terri’s medical fund, publicly likened Terri to a “houseplant” and has used Terri’s case on national television to promote his newly published book.

Atty George Felos $397,249.99

To me something has gone wrong if this judge is awarding money meant for her care to this attorney.

Grrr....

Baby Lee
02-23-2005, 11:12 AM
She wouldnt be aware of any of this at all
Pardon me if I don't take your word for it.

WilliamTheIrish
02-23-2005, 11:16 AM
Maybe he's afraid an autopsy might show something... :hmmm:

And you tell others not to spew opinions? Slander the guy some more.

alnorth
02-23-2005, 11:17 AM
Pardon me if I don't take your word for it.

Fine, then your also disagreeing with any possibility that she's a vegetable.

Even that is irrelevant at this point. It is a FACT that Michael says she would not want to live in this condition. If you think he is lying (what the hell would his motive be?), then you can feel free to think what you want, but according to our laws and culture, we have to trust that he's right.

If the only way she could die is starvation, and if she wouldnt want to be kept alive in this condition, and if we have a pretty good reason to believe she wouldnt be aware of the pain (but even that might not be relevant if not living in this state is more important to Terri than avoiding a week of pain), then I dont see why we should pretend to know more about Terri's desires than the man she was married to.

Baby Lee
02-23-2005, 11:20 AM
than the man she was married to.
You buried a pretty big word at the very end. The dude has a whole new family.

alnorth
02-23-2005, 11:23 AM
I know that, and its completely, totally, and utterly irrelevant. What a piece of paper says or doesnt say doesnt change the fact that logically, there is not a human being on the planet who is more qualified as an expert into Terri's wishes than Michael.

Aside from that, as I said before, Terri has been all but dead for years now. You want him to swear an oath of chastity?

Donger
02-23-2005, 11:23 AM
It is a FACT that Michael says she would not want to live in this condition. If you think he is lying (what the hell would his motive be?)

As I understand it, Michael took out a rather large life insurance policy on Terri a few months before her accident, and he refuses to acknowledge that such a policy exists.

If I were conspiratorial, I'd call that a motive for wanting to have her feeding tube removed and lying about Terri's wants.

Cochise
02-23-2005, 11:23 AM
WHY!?!?!?!

Imagine for a moment that Terri looked Michael in the eyes a few years ago and told him "if I'm ever in anything resembling a coma or a vegetative state, then I want to die, Michael." This is essentially what he is saying, whatever words she used to express that wish.

Did she say that? Where is the documentation of it then?

Cochise
02-23-2005, 11:25 AM
As I understand it, Michael took out a rather large life insurance policy on Terri a few months before her accident, and he refuses to acknowledge that such a policy exists.

If I were conspiratorial, I'd call that a motive for wanting to have her feeding tube removed and lying about Terri's wants.

No kidding.

For a while he was even blocking her parents from visiting her in the hospice.

WilliamTheIrish
02-23-2005, 11:27 AM
No kidding.

For a while he was even blocking her parents from visiting her in the hospice.

In-Laws: Ya can't starve em...too.

alnorth
02-23-2005, 11:27 AM
Did she say that? Where is the documentation of it then?

*sigh*

There is no documentation. Most people dont create living wills unless they are 80 with heart trouble. I am saying right now that I, Aaron North, a resident of Frontenac, KS, would want to die if I were in Terri's condition.

however, there is no documentation of that, I would just have to trust that my family would know this.

Anyway, someone said Michael should burn, is the devil incarnate, etc etc etc, all because he used her medical award to help her die. Period, without any caveats, just that Michael is evil because of this no matter the circumstances.

I simply responded with "what if Michael is right?" If Terri wanted to die, then using her money to help carry out this wish is justified.

Baby Lee
02-23-2005, 11:31 AM
*sigh*

There is no documentation. Most people dont create living wills unless they are 80 with heart trouble. I am saying right now that I, Aaron North, a resident of Frontenac, KS, would want to die if I were in Terri's condition.

however, there is no documentation of that, I would just have to trust that my family would know this.

Anyway, someone said Michael should burn, is the devil incarnate, etc etc etc, all because he used her medical award to help her die. Period, without any caveats, just that Michael is evil because of this no matter the circumstances.

I simply responded with "what if Michael is right?" If Terri wanted to die, then using her money to help carry out this wish is justified.
In no way did you say 'what if.'
You were unequivocal. Michael is right. There's 'no one on earth' more right. And his motives are pure. And Terri will feel absolutely no pain. And she absolutely wants this, because Michael the Right told us so.
If you want to play 'what if,' play both sides equal.
What if Terri is fully cognitive of her surroundings? What if she feels pain, hunger, anger, sadness, joy, melancholy, etc.?
What if she spends her days wishing she could relate to those around her her desire to live?
What if she's sitting there hoping the good doctors are working on breaking her from her paralysis and return her to her life?

Cochise
02-23-2005, 11:32 AM
however, there is no documentation of that, I would just have to trust that my family would know this.


Yeah, you're saying that doctors should just take someone's word for it when unplugging someone. There are a lot of people who think that is ridiculous. As a doctor, there's no way in hell I would subject myself to that liability either.

You don't want to live in that situation, go make a living will, or at least write something down, put it on videotape, something. Look at yourself. You know for a fact that you could go out and create a living will right now and save your family the possibility, but you haven't done it yet. Why not?

Cochise
02-23-2005, 11:36 AM
In no way did you say 'what if.'
You were unequivocal. Michael is right. There's 'no one on earth' more right. And his motives are pure. And Terri will feel absolutely no pain. And she absolutely wants this, because Michael the Right told us so.
If you want to play 'what if,' play both sides equal.

Not only is it a disdainful disrespect for 'inferior' human life, but to advocate an exceptionaly cruel and inhuman method of extermination of this person is just beyond my comprehension.

Maybe, if she were in a coma for years and was brain dead, was not going to know anything and would have a peaceful death, maybe I could see the point there. But to come here championing a painful, cruel death that our society does not even give to stray animals is simply disgusting.

siberian khatru
02-23-2005, 11:38 AM
You don't want to live in that situation, go make a living will, or at least write something down, put it on videotape, something. Look at yourself. You know for a fact that you could go out and create a living will right now and save your family the possibility, but you haven't done it yet. Why not?

Well, he's at least now told more than one person, outside his home. We are all witnesses (assuming alnorth is of sound mind and body). That's better than the Schiavo situation.

Look, here's the bottom line for me: When in doubt, err on the side of life.

If nothing else, this case demonstrates, as Cochise said, that everyone really ought to have some kind of living will. I and my wife do. I've also told my parents, not just my spouse, what my wishes are. If you really are adamant about something like that, then be adamant about ensuring that there's no doubt about your wishes.

alnorth
02-23-2005, 11:41 AM
What if Terri is fully cognitize of her surroundings?

She isnt. I misspoke earlier when I called her brain-dead, that she is not. Brain-death and vegetative state are different conditions.

Terri Schiavo fell into a coma in 1990, and has been in a vegetative state ever since. Neurological tests and brain scans indicate that her cerebral cortex is now principally liquid.

According to the National Institutes of Health, patients in a persistent vegetative state lack "the higher cerebral powers of the brain, but the functions of the brainstem, such as respiration (breathing) and circulation, remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli, but the patient does not speak or obey commands. Patients in a vegetative state may appear somewhat normal. They may occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh."

A vegetative state is not the same as being brain dead. If you're brain dead, you can't be kept alive without machines. But in a vegetative state, normal body functions continue without machines -- the body breathes, may twitch occasionally, and has sleep cycles (but without "waking up"). Swallowing requires higher brain function, something vegetables don't have, so a feeding tube is necessary.

Terri's doctors and court-appointed doctors say she cannot be rehabilitated. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, says they discussed the matter when she was capable of a discussion, and Terri explicitly said she would not want to be kept alive in such a hopeless condition. He wants her feeding tube removed, after which she would slowly die of malnutrition -- basically starving to death. He has taken a new lover, but refuses to divorce Terri, because doing so would forfeit his right to determine her care.

Her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, want to let Terri live. They say the situation isn't really hopeless. They believe their daughter responds to them when they visit, and that she could recover with therapy. They see a smile in Terri's toothy facial expression.

It is, in short, a sad family situation, undoubtedly painful for everyone involved (except, of course, Terri).

In 2003, a court-appointed guardian for Terri wrote that during the years-long legal struggle, the Schindlers had ''voiced the disturbing belief that they would keep Terri alive at any and all costs," even if that required amputation of her limbs. "As part of the hypothetical presented," the guardian's report stated, "Schindler family members stated that even if Terri had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it.''

Folks, you could make the arguement that her parents are freaking nuts here. They have said that even if Terri had told her parents she would want to die, they would refuse to honor her dying wish, effectively saying they know whats best for her better than she does.

Terri is a vegetable, the parents visit and they cant bear to let go. They see what they want to see, regardless of reality.

Calcountry
02-23-2005, 11:53 AM
I like to think that I'm a fairly reliable conservative Republican, but I have to disagree with the party on this issue. I dont see why its such a controversial issue at all, unless you are generally opposed to medical "Do Not Resuscitate" requests.

Terri Schiavo is a vegetable, and her doctors say there is no hope of recovery. I know we all can cite isolated rare miracle cases where someone recovers after decades of coma, but whatever. I know I would not want to be kept alive in that position. I'm not going to go as far as to claim that a majority of Americans would object to being kept alive as a vegetable because I simply dont know, but its a hell of a lot of people.

Terri never wrote down a "what if" scenario about what to do in case of brain-death. OK, fine. I have no problem with letting the husband make the call, and his word should overrule whatever the parents want. We arent East Asia, where the parents rule supreme, and a new married couple is expected to move in with the parents and live under their thumb. In our culture, when you get married, the parents take a step back and are second to your spouse and your new immediate family, and our laws reflect that aspect of our culture, so we need to honor it.

Michael is now moving on with a new woman? I dont have a problem with it, his wife has been essentially dead for years now, just how long do you want him to grieve? He said that Terri told him she would not want to be kept alive if this happened to her, I believe him. He has the authority to give a "Do not Resuscitate" order in my eyes, and we should respect that.

Thoughts?The issue, IMO, is a power of attourney issue. Does the Husband, or the Parents have the right to keep her in a vegetative state?

alnorth
02-23-2005, 11:54 AM
Yeah, you're saying that doctors should just take someone's word for it when unplugging someone. There are a lot of people who think that is ridiculous. As a doctor, there's no way in hell I would subject myself to that liability either.

You don't want to live in that situation, go make a living will, or at least write something down, put it on videotape, something. Look at yourself. You know for a fact that you could go out and create a living will right now and save your family the possibility, but you haven't done it yet. Why not?

For one thing, I'm still just a college student, somewhat athletic, and in next-to-no chance of falling into bad health. It really never occurred to me that a living will might be a good idea untill a few days ago, but I dont think its necessary, because my family has talked about this before. I trust them to not lose their minds and go Schiavo on me.

Iowanian
02-23-2005, 12:40 PM
This case has done something positive.

Its reminded me to tell my wife and parents exactly how I feel about living like that...........I absolutely want to be unplugged and organs donated..........and have asked my brothers to put a pillow over my face if the docs won't unplug me.

no way, would I ever consider her condition "living" for myself. I'm of the thinking that I'd much prefer death, so my family could deal and move on, instead of dragging it out for decades.

Chief Henry
02-23-2005, 01:28 PM
For one thing, I'm still just a college student, somewhat athletic, and in next-to-no chance of falling into bad health. It really never occurred to me that a living will might be a good idea untill a few days ago, but I dont think its necessary, because my family has talked about this before. I trust them to not lose their minds and go Schiavo on me.


Can you say Brain anurism(sp) This has happen'd to THREE
people that I know very well. You could be the picture of perfect health, like all three of these people, and then you can be dead or worse yet, laying on your back in a nursing home with a fricking feeding tube all the while you've got drool running out of the side of your mouth.

If any planeteers don't want to live like Terri Schavo, then you better get your ass into an attorneys office and get a living will made.
Both my wif and I have one. My mom has a copy of it. Make dam sure your parents have copies of your living will.

alnorth
02-23-2005, 02:02 PM
Can you say Brain anurism(sp) This has happen'd to THREE
people that I know very well. You could be the picture of perfect health, like all three of these people, and then you can be dead or worse yet, laying on your back in a nursing home with a fricking feeding tube all the while you've got drool running out of the side of your mouth.

If any planeteers don't want to live like Terri Schavo, then you better get your ass into an attorneys office and get a living will made.
Both my wif and I have one. My mom has a copy of it. Make dam sure your parents have copies of your living will.

Hmmm... thanks for that advice, I'm seriously going to consider it. I'm graduating this May and getting a nice entry-level corporate job lined up this summer, but after I get all settled down and have the money to do it, I may do just that.

KCWolfman
02-23-2005, 04:36 PM
I don't see how anyone can be opposed to DNRs.

A person has the right to end their own life. I just don't believe that anyone has the right to assist them in doing so.

KCWolfman
02-23-2005, 04:38 PM
Can you say Brain anurism(sp) This has happen'd to THREE
people that I know very well. You could be the picture of perfect health, like all three of these people, and then you can be dead or worse yet, laying on your back in a nursing home with a fricking feeding tube all the while you've got drool running out of the side of your mouth.

If any planeteers don't want to live like Terri Schavo, then you better get your ass into an attorneys office and get a living will made.
Both my wif and I have one. My mom has a copy of it. Make dam sure your parents have copies of your living will.
A DNR is sufficient, and you don't need a lawyer.

Just copy and paste this, it is legally binding in all 50 states. Keep one in your wallet and a copy at home. Make sure a notary stamps it after you sign in front of them.



(DNR) Do Not Resusitate


If I,__________________, should have an incurable or irreversible condition that will cause my death, it is my desire that my life not be prolonged by administration of life-sustaining procedures.
If my condition is terminal and I am unable to participate in decisions regarding my medical treatment, I direct my attending physician to withhold or withdraw procedures that merely prolong the dying process and are not necessary to my comfort or freedom from pain.

It is my intention that this declaration shall be valid until revoked by me.

SIGNED this_______________day of________________20____.

Sign and Print Name_________________________/____________________________________

________________________________________________
City, County State of Residence

The declarant is known to me and voluntarily signed this document in my presence.



______________________________
Witness Sign


___________________________

Address



______________________________
Witness Sign


___________________________

Address

Donger
02-23-2005, 04:59 PM
A DNR is sufficient, and you don't need a lawyer.

Just copy and paste this, it is legally binding in all 50 states. Keep one in your wallet and a copy at home. Make sure a notary stamps it after you sign in front of them.



(DNR) Do Not Resusitate


If I,__________________, should have an incurable or irreversible condition that will cause my death, it is my desire that my life not be prolonged by administration of life-sustaining procedures.
If my condition is terminal and I am unable to participate in decisions regarding my medical treatment, I direct my attending physician to withhold or withdraw procedures that merely prolong the dying process and are not necessary to my comfort or freedom from pain.

It is my intention that this declaration shall be valid until revoked by me.

SIGNED this_______________day of________________20____.

Sign and Print Name_________________________/____________________________________

________________________________________________
City, County State of Residence

The declarant is known to me and voluntarily signed this document in my presence.



______________________________
Witness Sign


___________________________

Address



______________________________
Witness Sign


___________________________

Address


That's great KCW. Thanks.

Boozer
02-23-2005, 05:31 PM
A DNR is sufficient...


I'd caution against "one size fits all" solutions. Depending on your family's attitudes, a DNR is definitely NOT sufficient, especially for a Nancy Cruzan-type persistent vegitative state. A durable power of attorney, heath care directive, etc. can be particularly helpful.