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KevB
03-01-2005, 04:23 PM
NFL.com had Rogers running the 40 in 4.31, while Derrick Johnson came in at 4.56. NFL.com's numbers have been faster than the official electronic time, but those two times might put them squarely in the sights of the Chiefs.

Rogers 40 probably propels him into the 10-20 range, while DJ's 40, while good, doesn't really jump out at you. He could fall to 15....I'm still holding out hope.

HolmeZz
03-01-2005, 04:25 PM
4.56 is outstanding for a linebacker. And Rogers propels him quite a bit.

NaptownChief
03-01-2005, 04:27 PM
They are both player I would love to get...Rogers is the guy I would most want if we go CB in the 1st...Johnson if we go LB and Roth if we go Dline.


If I had the choice it would be:

1a)Johnson
1b)Rogers




3)Roth

Phobia
03-01-2005, 04:27 PM
I agree with Nap. That's my top 3.

KevB
03-01-2005, 04:28 PM
4.56 is outstanding for a linebacker. And Rogers propels him quite a bit.

That's hand timed. Once the electronic time comes out, I'd suspect it will be the low 4.6's. I expected him in the high 4.4s or low 4.5s electronic.

KevB
03-01-2005, 04:29 PM
They are both player I would love to get...Rogers is the guy I would most want if we go CB in the 1st...Johnson if we go LB and Roth if we go Dline.


If I had the choice it would be:

1a)Johnson
1b)Rogers




3)Roth

Are you assuming PacMan and Antrel Rolle are gone, or do you like these guys better?

HolmeZz
03-01-2005, 04:29 PM
Linebackers don't run 4.4's. They just don't. :p

NaptownChief
03-01-2005, 04:33 PM
Are you assuming PacMan and Antrel Rolle are gone, or do you like these guys better?


I like all three better than PacMan...I like Rogers and Johnson better than Rolle.

If it came down to Roth or PacMan I would probably take Jones just because of need but I like Roth better as a football player if you ignore our glaring need at CB.

Herzig
03-01-2005, 04:38 PM
I like all three better than PacMan...I like Rogers and Johnson better than Rolle.

If it came down to Roth or PacMan I would probably take Jones just because of need but I like Roth better as a football player if you ignore our glaring need at CB.

Man...I totally agree with you on this. Carlos Rogers is a stud. It's hard to argue with a Jim Thorpe winner, plus he was big part of Auburn's undefeated defense last year. Not to mention accomplishing this in the SEC...the toughest conference in football. I hope we get this kid.

redsurfer11
03-01-2005, 04:38 PM
NFL.com had Rogers running the 40 in 4.31, while Derrick Johnson came in at 4.56. NFL.com's numbers have been faster than the official electronic time, but those two times might put them squarely in the sights of the Chiefs.

Rogers 40 probably propels him into the 10-20 range, while DJ's 40, while good, doesn't really jump out at you. He could fall to 15....I'm still holding out hope.


Derrick Thomas was a 4.6 linebacker. Any time you can get a linebacker that has talent and 4.6 speed, you draft him if he falls to you.

HolmeZz
03-01-2005, 04:39 PM
My list:

1. Johnson
2. Rolle
3. Jones
4. Rogers

Herzig
03-01-2005, 04:42 PM
My list:

1. Johnson
2. Rolle
3. Jones
4. Rogers

Here's mine

1. Johnson
2. Rogers
3. Jones
4. Rolle

ZootedGranny
03-01-2005, 04:43 PM
Man...I totally agree with you on this. Carlos Rogers is a stud. It's hard to argue with a Jim Thorpe winner, plus he was big part of Auburn's undefeated defense last year. Not to mention accomplishing this in the SEC...the toughest conference in football. I hope we get this kid.

Same here, I've been hoping the Chiefs could get him since the day the season was over and I realized Johnson was out of our grasp. I'd prefer Rogers over Rolle and Jones, but the good news is that even if Rogers leapfrogs Rolle, we'll still have a chance at Antrel, which is perfectly fine by me.

HolmeZz
03-01-2005, 04:46 PM
Simply put, we should be in position to draft either of those 4 players, or Merriman, who I'd also have no problem taking. Needless to say, if we don't get one of those 5 guys, I'd be disappointed.

tomahawk kid
03-01-2005, 04:48 PM
Simply put, we should be in position to draft either of those 4 players, or Merriman, who I'd also have no problem taking. Needless to say, if we don't get one of those 5 guys, I'd be disappointed.

I've never seen Merriman play a down. He's listed as a "tweener" of sorts. Anyone see this guy play last year?

NaptownChief
03-01-2005, 04:48 PM
Man...I totally agree with you on this. Carlos Rogers is a stud. It's hard to argue with a Jim Thorpe winner, plus he was big part of Auburn's undefeated defense last year. Not to mention accomplishing this in the SEC...the toughest conference in football. I hope we get this kid.


I've not seen a CB in a long time that is as physical as him as a football player and still have excellent cover skills. He will stick his head on running plays and go after a ball carrier like a nasty linebacker and yet has excellent cover skills....There aren't that many defensive players that come along and just really standout play after play like he did against top D One competition.

If this kid doesn't turn out to be a stud I will be shocked unless it were due to injury.

Herzig
03-01-2005, 04:54 PM
I've not seen a CB in a long time that is as physical as him as a football player and still have excellent cover skills. He will stick his head on running plays and go after a ball carrier like a nasty linebacker and yet has excellent cover skills....There aren't that many defensive players that come along and just really standout play after play like he did against top D One competition.

If this kid doesn't turn out to be a stud I will be shocked unless it were due to injury.

Agreed. I saw him play alot because he was in the SEC(Arkansas and Auburn are both in the SEC West). The play he made that sticks out the most to me was one he made in RUN coverage in the Sugar Bowl this year. He basically leaped over and stuffed the RB preventing a TD. He can cover like a shut down CB and hit like a safety. This boy KNOWS how to tackle too. He's an all around tough CB.

HolmeZz
03-01-2005, 04:55 PM
I don't consider Merriman a tweener. I think he's only a linebacker at the next level. He's probably the best physical specimen in the draft.

Hoover
03-01-2005, 04:55 PM
My 40 time* is 4.78


* Time it takes to drink a 40 oz adult beverage

KevB
03-01-2005, 05:01 PM
I don't consider Merriman a tweener. I think he's only a linebacker at the next level. He's probably the best physical specimen in the draft.

He came into the combine at 272lbs.....which would tell me you could put him at RDE and he'd be fine.

He's a tweener in the sense that people aren't sure where to put him, not because of his size. A bit like Kearse when he came out.

KevB
03-01-2005, 05:05 PM
Linebackers don't run 4.4's. They just don't. :p

They do if some are saying the LB in question could be the 1st pick overall. The last draft that had a LB in the top 10 was 2000, with Arrington and Urlacher. I don't remember what Arrington ran (although he was a physical freak), but Urlacher ran a sub 4.5, which is how he got into the top 10.

I think DJ is comparable to Vilma and DJ Williams, who went 12th and 17th last year. That puts him in our range.

NaptownChief
03-01-2005, 05:37 PM
They do if some are saying the LB in question could be the 1st pick overall. The last draft that had a LB in the top 10 was 2000, with Arrington and Urlacher. I don't remember what Arrington ran (although he was a physical freak), but Urlacher ran a sub 4.5, which is how he got into the top 10.

I think DJ is comparable to Vilma and DJ Williams, who went 12th and 17th last year. That puts him in our range.


I remember Dan Morgan ran a high 4.4 forty during his on campus workout.

Logical
03-01-2005, 05:40 PM
The electronic time for Derrick Johnson from the combine was 4.65 according to the NFL Network

Chiefnj
03-01-2005, 05:47 PM
pre-2004 report on Rogers:

CB Carlos Rogers
(5-117?8, 195, 4.42) Also lettered in basketball and track in high school, posting top times of 10.7 in the 100 meters and 21.0 in the 200 meters. Attended Hargrave Military Academy in 2000. Named to the All-Southeastern Conference Freshman team in 01, when he started 10-of-12 games and recorded 58 tackles and a team-leading 12 pass breakups. Tore ligaments in his right thumb in November and had surgery but did not miss any time. Started 9-of-12 games in which he played in 02, finishing with 48-9 and four interceptions. Did not start four games after dropping behind Roderick Hood (Eagles) and Horace Willis (Vikings) on the depth chart. Started 12 games in 03, missing the Arkansas game after suffering a left thumb injury vs. Tennessee that required surgery, and finished with 29-9-1. Will be a four-year starter, but his production has dropped off every year. Had too much success early on and has not been able to maintain it. Confidence has been shaky. Rare size-speed combination but lacks great football intelligence. Does not play to timed speed. Soft tackler. Needs to be more physical and improve his backpedal technique. Too much wasted motion coming out of breaks. If he can learn to read routes, react to what he sees and drive on the ball, he could receive first-day consideration. If he continues to rely on his natural speed, avoid contact and lose focus, he will be nothing more than a height-weight-speed prospect worthy of a camp invite.

NaptownChief
03-01-2005, 05:51 PM
Soft tackler. Needs to be more physical and improve his backpedal technique. .


Who ever wrote that doesn't bother to watch players before they cut and paste their reviews from years gone bye....

The one thing this kid isn't, is soft. That is probably the poorest most uninformed write up I have ever seen. You watch that kid for just 10 minutes and the one thing that you can't overlook is how much of a hitter he is for a CB.

keg in kc
03-01-2005, 05:55 PM
Who ever wrote that doesn't bother to watch players before they cut and paste their reviews from years gone bye....pre-2004 report on Rogers

Herzig
03-01-2005, 05:58 PM
http://www.draftshowcase.com/CarlosRogers.htm

CARLOS ROGERS
Cornerback
Auburn
Senior
6'1 | 191 | 4.37*

HOME TOWN: Augusta, GA
HIGH SCHOOL: Butler

*unofficial 40 time, AP Photo

QUICK STRENGTHS: size, speed, aggressiveness, hands
QUICK WEAKNESSES: technique, consistency
NFL COMPARISONS: Rogers is a big, fast cover man who still needs some technical work but has big time upside much like Carolina's Chris Gamble.
Rogers first attended Hargrave Military Academy. He earned Freshman All American honors the next season. He played mostly as a nickel back, starting a few games his first two years at Auburn, but would start all 12 games as a junior. As a senior he would enjoy a breakout year and won the Jim Thorpe Award as the nation's top defensive back.

Rogers has the size and speed to be a shutdown corner in the NFL, however, there are a few things he must work on before he is able to capitalize on his potential. Rogers is a good athlete who shows great quickness on the field. He has good closing speed and has good ability to close on receivers. Rogers is best in zone coverage, he shows good awareness and good anticipation in zone. In man coverage, he does a nice job of playing up on the line and not allowing receivers to get clean releases. However, he tends to stay in a backpedal or sidestep for too long and will look into the backfield which has allowed some receivers to get deep on him. Rogers is a solid tackler who tackles low, but doesn't have the strength to be a big hitter.

Rogers has the ability to be an NFL starter, but he must pick up the consistency. He had his best season as a senior, which is always a good thing. Rogers has a lot of upside potential and that should get him into the mid-late 1st Round.

Year Team Tackles INT PBU TFL
2001 - Fr Auburn 58 0 12 0
2002 - So Auburn 48 4 9 2
2003 - Jr Auburn 29 1 9 1
2004 - Sr Auburn 47 2 8 5
TOTALS - 182 7 39 8

NaptownChief
03-01-2005, 06:03 PM
I saw that but it is still a horrible write up...."Soft players" don't become big time hitters between their Jr and Sr year. A wild transformation like that might happen from an intimidated freshman going into his So year with confidence but that doesn't happen between a Jr and Sr year....It would be like a Tiger changing stripes.

Herzig
03-01-2005, 06:06 PM
For now, here's a quick rundown of the strengths and weaknesses of the 2005 draft:


Interesting read.

http://www.gbnreport.com/scoutsnotebook.htm



Cornerback... The deepest position at the 2005 draft looks like it could be at CB. There is a strong core group of seniors at the position including Antrel Rolle of Miami. Marlin Jackson of Michigan, Carlos Rogers of Auburn and LSU's Corey Webster, augmented by several top underclassmen including juniors Adam Jones of West Virginia and Clemson's Justin Miller and rangy Oregon State sophomore Brandon Browner. None of the four seniors, though, is a blazer, indeed, none is expected to run much under 4.5 in the 40, if at all. That could open the door for the abrasive Jones or the athletic 6-4 Browner to claim the top grade among the CBs, and possibly a spot in the top 10, if they can post some solid times this off-season.

There is also plenty of depth at CB this year, with as many as a couple of dozen players at the position with sub-4.5 speed, although, there isn't necessarily a lot of size across the board. Second-tier CBs to watch include Bryant McFadden of Florida State and Eric Green of Virginia Tech, both of whom could sneak into the latter part of the first round with some solid off-season workouts, along with feisty Darrent Williams of Oklahoma State and Abraham Elimimian of Hawaii, while Nick Collins of Bethune-Cookman and Ronald Bartell of Howard are sleepers at the position.

Herzig
03-01-2005, 06:17 PM
Here's one on Rolle

Cornerback
Miami
Senior
6'1 | 195 | 4.47*

HOME TOWN: Homestead, FL
HIGH SCHOOL: South Dade

*unofficial 40 time, AP Photo
QUICK STRENGTHS: Size, speed, return ability, physical play
QUICK WEAKNESSES: overly aggressive at times
NFL COMPARISONS: Rolle is a big physical corner but has good speed and coverage skills as well, similar to Marcus Trufant.
Antrel played right away as a nickel back his freshman season. He graduated to starter as a sophomore and earned all Big East honors. As a Junior, he again earned all Big East and held 3rd overall pick Larry Fitzgerald to 2 rec for 26 yards. He elected to return to school even though he was projected as a late 1st Round pick.
Physically, Rolle has everything the NFL wants in a corner. He is big, well built, strong and yet fast enough to run with receivers. He has good coverage skills. Gets his hands on receivers at the line and doesn't allow them a clean release. He has decent but not outstanding short area quickness. He does have good recovery speed and runs well with receivers. At times, he gets too physical and will draw some flags. In run support, he is big, strong and can lay the big hits. He also has improved his tackling technique immensely and is now a great wrap up tackler. He shows good ability to time the blitz and has good closing speed to the quarterback. When the ball is in the air, he does a good job of getting to it but has only average hands. After the INT and as a punt returner, he has shown very good open field running skills and is a threat to go the distance when he has the ball in the open field.

There are some that feel Rolle will be a FS at the NFL level, but he has the athleticism and the physicality to be a top NFL corner. There are still some concerns about his pure speed, but you can't question his productivity and his ability to shut down opposing receivers at the college level. Rolle will be a 1st Round pick, and should be top 5 selection.

Herzig
03-01-2005, 06:18 PM
One on Jones


| ADAM "Pacman" JONES
Cornerback
West Virginia
Junior
5'10 | 185 | 4.40*

HOME TOWN: College Park, GA
HIGH SCHOOL: Westlake

*unofficial 40 time, Photo by Pete Memerson
QUICK STRENGTHS: quickness, coverage ability, playmaking
QUICK WEAKNESSES: size, overaggressive
NFL COMPARISONS: Nicely built, tough cover man with solid athletic skills but is a tad undersized for the position similar to the Eagles' Lito Sheppard.
A fairly touted recruit out of high school, Jones played mostly as a nickel back his freshman year. He started for much of the year as a sophomore and every game as a junior. His best season was as a junior when he earned 1st team All Big East honors.
Pacman is an exciting playmaker with decent measureables. He is about average height for a corner and has a decent build. While playing at West Virginia, Jones has played a lot of deep zone and also man to man. He shows good coverage skills and fluid hips. He has outstanding speed and can turn and run with the faster receivers. He shows good agility and can turn and break on the ball well, he shows good closing/recovery speed. At times he can be overaggressive playing the ball though. He gambles and can be beaten with double moves. He likes to play physically but has only avererage strength and doesn't always affect his man's release enough. When the ball is in the air, Jones shows good ball skills and attacks the ball aggressively. He is a good return man as well and is dangerous in the open field both as a return man and following interceptions. In run support, Jones is quick to the ball and is a reliable tackler. He doesn't have great size/strength though and has some difficulty getting off blocks..

Jones is a good overall prospect, not quite the top 10 player he's being rated as but he has the potential to become a very good cover corner in this league. He has something that can't be taught and that's speed. Mid 1st Round.

Year Team Tackles INT PBU TFL
2002 - Fr West Virginia 36 1 1 0
2003 - So West Virginia 89 4 14 6
2004 - Jr West Virginia 69 3 7 3
TOTALS - 194 8 22 9

KevB
03-01-2005, 06:24 PM
I remember Dan Morgan ran a high 4.4 forty during his on campus workout.

Yep, and he went 11th. With Derrick Johnson's 4.65, I think it's perfectly legit to think he could drop to 15.

Herzig
03-01-2005, 06:33 PM
Yep, and he went 11th. With Derrick Johnson's 4.65, I think it's perfectly legit to think he could drop to 15.

I would be shocked if he drops outta the top 10. You can always hope though.

NaptownChief
03-01-2005, 06:35 PM
If Morgan would quit with the concusion problems he is a guy I would love to snag when he becomes a FA which I think is after this season. He has battled injuries but when he is on the field he is a playa hatta.

HolmeZz
03-01-2005, 07:07 PM
Yep, and he went 11th. With Derrick Johnson's 4.65, I think it's perfectly legit to think he could drop to 15.

He's not going to drop because of a 4.65. That's a perfectly fine time for a linebacker.

Mr. Laz
03-01-2005, 07:19 PM
Rogers has been my fav the whole time...


i've been reluctant to say he's better than Rolle, but imo his "weakness" against the run is completely overblown.


i look at Rolle and get safety/corner conversion nightmares. :spank:

KevB
03-01-2005, 07:49 PM
He's not going to drop because of a 4.65. That's a perfectly fine time for a linebacker.

"Perfectly fine" doesn't equate to a top 10 LB. I'm not saying he will drop, but a 4.49 would have solidified him as a top 10 pick....a 4.65 doesn't. In fact, 4.65 is pedestrian for an attacking OLB these days.

Chiefnj
03-01-2005, 08:49 PM
If you want to be impressed by numbers look no further than David Pollack.

I found these posted at Bernies Insiders:

"3 Cone Drill: 6.86
-- Mayock was commenting during the LB sessions that they should shoot for a 7 flat because that's when you get close to DB speed. The next fastest D-lineman was clocked at 7.09!

20 Yard Shuttle: 3.90
-- Next fastest D-lineman was clocked at 4.07

Oh and Pollack even finished in the top 5 of Defensive linemen for vertical jump."

HolmeZz
03-01-2005, 09:15 PM
"Perfectly fine" doesn't equate to a top 10 LB. I'm not saying he will drop, but a 4.49 would have solidified him as a top 10 pick....a 4.65 doesn't. In fact, 4.65 is pedestrian for an attacking OLB these days.

You're out of your skull if you're saying he's not a top 10 LB based on ONE 40 time. He's plenty fast enough to be a star at the next level. Plus, the difference between like a 4.4 and a 4.6 is like a blink of an eye. You can't put too much emphasis on one 40 time.

KevB
03-01-2005, 09:47 PM
You're out of your skull if you're saying he's not a top 10 LB based on ONE 40 time. He's plenty fast enough to be a star at the next level. Plus, the difference between like a 4.4 and a 4.6 is like a blink of an eye. You can't put too much emphasis on one 40 time.

Did you read my post? I said I'm not saying this 40 time would drop him out of the top 10. BUT, a time in the 4.4s would solidify it. If you don't think the 40 times matter, you're out of your skull.

Terrell Suggs was a DEnd who dominated in college. He was considered a shoe-in as a top 5 pick. He worked out, didn't put up eye popping numbers, and he dropped. It happens, especially for a non-essential position. Teams don't spend top 10 picks on LB's very often.

Chiefnj
03-01-2005, 09:58 PM
Did you read my post? I said I'm not saying this 40 time would drop him out of the top 10. BUT, a time in the 4.4s would solidify it. If you don't think the 40 times matter, you're out of your skull.

Terrell Suggs was a DEnd who dominated in college. He was considered a shoe-in as a top 5 pick. He worked out, didn't put up eye popping numbers, and he dropped. It happens, especially for a non-essential position. Teams don't spend top 10 picks on LB's very often.

He dropped because he weighed 250 lbs. The first 3-4 team picked him and it was a good move for the Ravens.

KevB
03-01-2005, 10:00 PM
He dropped because he weighed 250 lbs. The first 3-4 team picked him and it was a good move for the Ravens.

He dropped due to his size/speed combo, but running a 4.7 or 4.8 is what really got people's attention. The expectation was that he'd be a workout warrior, and he wasn't.

Chiefnj
03-01-2005, 10:04 PM
He dropped due to his size/speed combo, but running a 4.7 or 4.8 is what really got people's attention. The expectation was that he'd be a workout warrior, and he wasn't.

250lb defensive ends are useless to most teams. Draft gurus were disappointed with his 40 time (which is completely 100% meaningless for a DE - if your DE is running 40 yards to make a play your D is in trouble), but I don't think NFL teams were concerned. He had 10 sacks his rookie season - so much for a slow 40 time being relevant.

KevB
03-01-2005, 10:14 PM
250lb defensive ends are useless to most teams. Draft gurus were disappointed with his 40 time (which is completely 100% meaningless for a DE - if your DE is running 40 yards to make a play your D is in trouble), but I don't think NFL teams were concerned. He had 10 sacks his rookie season - so much for a slow 40 time being relevant.

I didn't say it was relevant. My contention is that 40 performance does affect draft status. And even more for a "playmaking" OLB than a DE.

mcan
03-02-2005, 04:47 AM
You're crazy if you think that 40 times don't matter... I think most NFL teams look at the 40 yard dash AND the 20 yard shuttle as a measure of speed and agililty. They are hoping that the guy runs the shuttle at least a 1/2 a second less than his 40 yard dash time, and that both numbers are impressive. I've heard several people say that the 40 yard dash is slightly overrated, but that it still is the gold standard for speed. The same way that the bench press is overrated, but is still the gold standard for strength.

They do care about it though. Otherwise, they wouldn't do the tests...

Chiefnj
03-02-2005, 06:02 AM
You're crazy if you think that 40 times don't matter... I think most NFL teams look at the 40 yard dash AND the 20 yard shuttle as a measure of speed and agililty. They are hoping that the guy runs the shuttle at least a 1/2 a second less than his 40 yard dash time, and that both numbers are impressive. I've heard several people say that the 40 yard dash is slightly overrated, but that it still is the gold standard for speed. The same way that the bench press is overrated, but is still the gold standard for strength.

They do care about it though. Otherwise, they wouldn't do the tests...


40 times for DE's are virtually meaningless. Michael Strahan - 4.91.

whoman69
03-02-2005, 08:47 AM
The more I read about Rogers, the more I like him. He's got the speed, the size, the agressiveness, toughness, experience, talent and the attitude.