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Chiefnj
03-03-2005, 09:30 AM
It is being discussed elsewhere that St. John on 810 this morning said there were issues with Trotter's physical given by KC? Any truth to this from anyone who listens to the show?

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 09:32 AM
It is being discussed elsewhere that St. John on 810 this morning said there were issues with Trotter's physical given by KC? Any truth to this from anyone who listens to the show?

Just tuned in.

Lamenting about Gay-U right now.

Iowanian
03-03-2005, 09:32 AM
I'm listening, but didn't hear that.

It might make sense.......beings that Every NFL team that looked at him was nervous about his knee last season.

Hartwell would sure look nice in Red.

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 09:33 AM
Just tuned in.

Lamenting about Gay-U right now.

Yeah, the tiggers did suck quite a bit of ass last night :D

the Talking Can
03-03-2005, 09:33 AM
the issue with his physical popped up when Trotter mentioned he wouldn't play for free....

keg in kc
03-03-2005, 09:34 AM
I didn't catch that, but I was listening more to DA than Border Patrol today. Although they were both talking so much college BB that I wasn't listening closely.

eazyb81
03-03-2005, 09:34 AM
Hartwell will also probably break the bank. John Clayton said he will be the most expensive LB so i'm not sure we can afford him. Also, with 16 teams supposedly interested in him, it could be a long process to get him signed.

ChiTown
03-03-2005, 09:35 AM
I'm listening, but didn't hear that.

It might make sense.......beings that Every NFL team that looked at him was nervous about his knee last season.

Hartwell would sure look nice in Red.

I wanted the Chiefs to draft Hartwell in 2001. Dude is a stud and would be the perfect fit for our system. I like Trotter, but we can't afford a "maybe" status with his injuries...........

Stinger
03-03-2005, 09:38 AM
Also, with 16 teams supposedly interested in him, it could be a long process to get him signed.

Well then it will happen then because CP knows how patient we fans are :rolleyes:

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 09:39 AM
Yeah, the tiggers did suck quite a bit of ass last night :D

I can't argue with that. My Alma Mater sucks right now.

I can still hate Kansas though.

petegz28
03-03-2005, 09:40 AM
I'm listening, but didn't hear that.

It might make sense.......beings that Every NFL team that looked at him was nervous about his knee last season.

Hartwell would sure look nice in Red.

Yes but supposedly 16 other teams are interested in Hartwell. If he leaves here without a contract then we won't see him again.

eazyb81
03-03-2005, 09:42 AM
I wanted the Chiefs to draft Hartwell in 2001. Dude is a stud and would be the perfect fit for our system. I like Trotter, but we can't afford a "maybe" status with his injuries...........

But we will be able to afford his contract when compared to Hartwell....

Don't get me wrong, Trotter would be awesome, but it seems pretty obvious that Hartwell will get the bigger contract.

bkkcoh
03-03-2005, 09:43 AM
But we will be able to afford his contract when compared to Hartwell....

Don't get me wrong, Trotter would be awesome, but it seems pretty obvious that Hartwell will get the bigger contract.


But Hartwell's contract may translate into more years with a slightly bigger signing bonus so that would equal out over the life of the contract for salary caps purposes...

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 09:44 AM
Hartwell will also probably break the bank. John Clayton said he will be the most expensive LB so i'm not sure we can afford him. Also, with 16 teams supposedly interested in him, it could be a long process to get him signed.

If he truly wants to be a Chief, it shouldn't be an issue.

KC CAN"T use the "afford" excuse this year either. We've got 1 more shot at this thing and the FO can't worry about where we're going to be cap-wise in 3 years.

I think its pretty simple here:

If Gun wants Rolle, you find a way to get it done.

If Hartwell wants to be here, you find a way to get it done.

There is no "next year"; no "tommorrow".

I think that our chances of signing these guys drops significantly if they leave KC to visit other teams. They need to get these guys under contract TODAY and move forward from there.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 09:51 AM
We've got 1 more shot at this thing...

Are the Chiefs folding after this season or something?

...and the FO can't worry about where we're going to be cap-wise in 3 years...

They should and they will.

htismaqe
03-03-2005, 09:52 AM
But Hartwell's contract may translate into more years with a slightly bigger signing bonus so that would equal out over the life of the contract for salary caps purposes...

Any contract over 4-years in length will have the bonus pro-rated as if it were a 4-year deal, due to the CBA expiring.

eazyb81
03-03-2005, 09:54 AM
If he truly wants to be a Chief, it shouldn't be an issue.

KC CAN"T use the "afford" excuse this year either. We've got 1 more shot at this thing and the FO can't worry about where we're going to be cap-wise in 3 years.

I think its pretty simple here:

If Gun wants Rolle, you find a way to get it done.

If Hartwell wants to be here, you find a way to get it done.

There is no "next year"; no "tommorrow".

I think that our chances of signing these guys drops significantly if they leave KC to visit other teams. They need to get these guys under contract TODAY and move forward from there.

I agree with everything you say, but no matter what we all say this is still a business to Lamar and Carl. They want to get a really good player, but they also don't want to feel like they spent too much. Peterson will sign some free agents but i'm not sure if he will sign the most expensive guys. I would love Hartwell but i'm just not sold that CP will do whatever it takes to get him, and would rather sign Trotter because he will probably cost less.

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 09:57 AM
They should and they will.

Why should they?

Based on the signing bonus escalations coming in 2006, this team is probably going to look significantly different after 2005 anyway you cut it.

Players like Roaf, Shields, Holmes, Richardson etc. are not getting any younger.

You are already starting to "push it" in terms of this offense maintaining their production at their current level.

You have to do something agressive NOW, in order to make a run at this thing in 2005.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 09:58 AM
Why should they?

Based on the signing bonus escalations coming in 2006, this team is probably going to look significantly different after 2005 anyway you cut it.

Players like Roaf, Shields, Holmes, Richardson etc. are not getting any younger.

You are already starting to "push it" in terms of this offense maintaining their production at their current level.

You have to do something agressive NOW, in order to make a run at this thing in 2005.

Are you going to take out 2nd and 3rd mortgages right now just because you want a better house before the sun blows up?

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 09:59 AM
Are you going to take out 2nd and 3rd mortgages right now just because you want a better house before the sun blows up?

If I know for a FACT that the sun IS going to blow up does it matter?

We're dead anyway.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:01 AM
If KC's going to pony up jack, dont piss it away on an 'iffy' knee...there are other LB's out there.

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 10:02 AM
Are you going to take out 2nd and 3rd mortgages right now just because you want a better house before the sun blows up?

This is the last year in our window of opportunity. Green will be 35, Holmes is coming off another injury-shortened season, Roaf, Shields, and Richardson are all over 34 (or will be by the end of '05). The one area of this team that is already, and HAS BEEN, SB-calibre is getting old. We must strike now, or scrap it and rebuild.

Personally, I think we blew it. Last year was the year and the FO sat on their hands.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:04 AM
Personally, I think we blew it. Last year was the year and the FO sat on their hands.

I think 2003 was the year making this year their 'second' attempt with DV.

The Bad Guy
03-03-2005, 10:04 AM
Any contract over 4-years in length will have the bonus pro-rated as if it were a 4-year deal, due to the CBA expiring.

5 years. Teams can only pro rate bonuses 5 years from what I read.

The Bad Guy
03-03-2005, 10:05 AM
Are you going to take out 2nd and 3rd mortgages right now just because you want a better house before the sun blows up?

Yes. What are we going to do? Wait 13 more years for a playoff win?

htismaqe
03-03-2005, 10:05 AM
5 years. Teams can only pro rate bonuses 5 years from what I read.

I heard Pete Prisco and Howard Balzer both say 4. So I don't know.

That being said, his point is still likely valid, because Hartwell would likely be a 4 or 5-year deal, while Trotter is more like a 2-year deal.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:06 AM
Personally, I think we blew it. Last year was the year and the FO sat on their hands.

Well then there's no hope. Guess I'll start watching tennis.

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 10:06 AM
Yes. What are we going to do? Wait 13 more years for a playoff win?

Not to mention 35 more years for a SuperBowl Ring.

the Talking Can
03-03-2005, 10:06 AM
we "blew it" when Holliday/McCleon/Barber turned out to be busts...CP/Coaches, they all deserve credit for that

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:06 AM
Yes. What are we going to do? Wait 13 more years for a playoff win?

I'll be a fan 13 years from now playoff wins or not. Will you?

Cormac
03-03-2005, 10:07 AM
Hartwell would likely be a 4 or 5-year deal, while Trotter is more like a 2-year deal.

Has anybody heard suggestions about what these guys want? I'd be surprised if Trotter signed anywhere for 2 years. Happy if it was in KC, but surprised nonetheless.

shaneo69
03-03-2005, 10:07 AM
If KC's going to pony up jack, dont piss it away on an 'iffy' knee...there are other LB's out there.

Yes, indeed. The Pierce contract is done, so offer Hartwell a little bit more so that he can say he was the highest paid. Shouldn't be that difficult.

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 10:08 AM
I think 2003 was the year making this year their 'second' attempt with DV.

No, 2003 was the first time KC had been in the playoffs in what, six seasons? Last year was the best opportunity to patch the D and take the next step. Instead, we did shit and ended up in a familiar place: out of the playoffs.

Of course, our schedule was tougher last year :rolleyes:
It's all about the schedule, you know?

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:08 AM
If I know for a FACT that the sun IS going to blow up does it matter?

We're dead anyway.

Yeah, it does matter. Sure the offense is going to look different in a few years. Does that automatically mean it's going to be worse? No.

jspchief
03-03-2005, 10:09 AM
Are you going to take out 2nd and 3rd mortgages right now just because you want a better house before the sun blows up?

If that's what it takes to fix a house that's missing half it's windows and roof? Yes.

eazyb81
03-03-2005, 10:10 AM
Yes, indeed. The Pierce contract is done, so offer Hartwell a little bit more so that he can say he was the highest paid. Shouldn't be that difficult.

No kidding, it's obvious that is what he wants. The longer we wait the higher the chances are that some knucklehead team will sign Bell to a huge contract just to get a big name player, therefore driving up the price for Hartwell even more. Let's get him signed today!

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:11 AM
No, 2003 was the first time KC had been in the playoffs in what, six seasons? Last year was the best opportunity to patch the D and take the next step. Instead, we did shit and ended up in a familiar place: out of the playoffs.

Of course, our schedule was tougher last year :rolleyes:
It's all about the schedule, you know?

Actually, I have some inside info that 2003 was the year which is why they made the push in FA. Didnt turn out to fix the problem, and KC's doing the same thing this year, so I imagine it's yet another push.

Last offseason, Lamar didnt open up the checkbook...cant do much when the many says no.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:11 AM
If that's what it takes to fix a house that's missing half it's windows and roof? Yes.

You guys must be up to your eyeballs in debt.

I'm sorry, I don't subscribe to the "This is our last chance" crap. From what I hear around here, if Carl and Vermiel leave after this season, we should automatically be more successful.

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 10:12 AM
Well then there's no hope. Guess I'll start watching tennis.

That's our point.

There IS hope, but the Chiefs have to get agressive in FA this year and, to some extent, mortgage the future.

Carl has tried the "prudent" approach to FA for 16 years. For the most part, he hasn't mortgaged the future (1998 might be the exception)What has it gotten KC? A loss in the AFC Championship game?

I want to see the Chiefs get a ring so badly, I would endure a 3-13 or 4-12 season 2 years from now if that's what it takes.

This city and its fans DESERVE this. Its time to bring another Lombardi Trophy to KC.

Getting agressive to FA is (in my opinion) the ONLY way to get this defense up to snuff in order to win a Championship.

bricks
03-03-2005, 10:13 AM
Of course, our schedule was tougher last year :rolleyes:
It's all about the schedule, you know?

That's a dick vermeil excuse. Dick and Carl are the perfect combination for failure, one makes an excuse the other doesn't back it up.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:13 AM
Carl has tried the "prudent" approach to FA for 16 years. For the most part, he hasn't mortgaged the future (1998 might be the exception)What has it gotten KC? A loss in the AFC Championship game?

that's why KC had 20m in dead cap money going into the 2001 season...

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 10:14 AM
Actually, I have some inside info that 2003 was the year which is why they made the push in FA. Didnt turn out to fix the problem, and KC's doing the same thing this year, so I imagine it's yet another push.

Last offseason, Lamar didnt open up the checkbook...cant do much when the many says no.

Nice, now you're trotting out the "we have no money" excuse. That one's my second favorite behind the "the schedule was tougher this year"

CanadianChief
03-03-2005, 10:15 AM
Where can I find a live stream on the net for KC radio? Is 810 the station to listen to?

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:16 AM
Nice, now you're trotting out the "we have no money" excuse. That one's my second favorite behind the "the schedule was tougher this year"

I didnt 'trot' it out, Carl said it as well as DV...since I dont know or have access to their financial statements I have to take their word for it. Feel free to believe what you want.

Chiefnj
03-03-2005, 10:16 AM
[interrupting the regular scheduled broadcast of "Do the Chiefs Care About the Fans"]
So I guess there hasn't actually been a report about Trotter having problems with the physical?

keg in kc
03-03-2005, 10:17 AM
This has been a total turd of a morning for KC sports talk.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:17 AM
That's our point.

There IS hope, but the Chiefs have to get agressive in FA this year and, to some extent, mortgage the future.

Carl has tried the "prudent" approach to FA for 16 years. For the most part, he hasn't mortgaged the future (1998 might be the exception)What has it gotten KC? A loss in the AFC Championship game?

I want to see the Chiefs get a ring so badly, I would endure a 3-13 or 4-12 season 2 years from now if that's what it takes.

This city and its fans DESERVE this. Its time to bring another Lombardi Trophy to KC.

Getting agressive to FA is (in my opinion) the ONLY way to get this defense up to snuff in order to win a Championship.

So what happens if we "get aggressive" but still don't win the Superbowl?

There are no guarantees and no, the city and the fans don't deserve a Superbowl win. They are owed what they pay for, 8 football games.
I'd love to see the Chiefs win a Superbowl just as much as the next guy but I, in no way, think I deserve it. One sets themselves up for disappointment when they think that way.

jspchief
03-03-2005, 10:17 AM
that's why KC had 20m in dead cap money going into the 2001 season...

And it only took two years to get 13 wins and a first round bye with a completely different team. Looks like "salary cap hell" can be a pretty short trip....

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 10:17 AM
I didnt 'trot' it out, Carl said it as well as DV...since I dont know or have access to their financial statements I have to take their word for it. Feel free to believe what you want.

Sure you did... you posted it here as your justification for '03 being "the year", did you not? I know it was <i>their</i> excuse for wasting '04, not yours. Nice of you to bring it up though :D

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 10:17 AM
[interrupting the regular scheduled broadcast of "Do the Chiefs Care About the Fans"]
So I guess there hasn't actually been a report about Trotter having problems with the physical?

They just started talking Chiefs again 10 minutes ago.

No mention of Trotter's physical or problems with it.

Cochise
03-03-2005, 10:18 AM
that's why KC had 20m in dead cap money going into the 2001 season...

We still had dead cap space from Derrick Alexander up until last year, right?

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 10:19 AM
And it only took two years to get 13 wins and a first round bye with a completely different team. Looks like "salary cap hell" can be a pretty short trip....

Shhh... don't you know that FA is bad? Rufus told me.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:19 AM
[interrupting the regular scheduled broadcast of "Do the Chiefs Care About the Fans"]
So I guess there hasn't actually been a report about Trotter having problems with the physical?

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:19 AM
Sure you did... you posted it here as your justification for '03 being "the year", did you not? I know it was <i>their</i> excuse for wasting '04, not yours. Nice of you to bring it up though :D

Actually my justification for 03 being the year had more to do with a source close to Lanier. It had nothing to do with 04--YOU are the one that said 04 was the year...LOL...yeah, sure was close, wasnt it.

The Bad Guy
03-03-2005, 10:19 AM
So what happens if we "get aggressive" but still don't win the Superbowl?

There are no guarantees and no, the city and the fans don't deserve a Superbowl win. They are owed what they pay for, 8 football games.
I'd love to see the Chiefs win a Superbowl just as much as the next guy but I, in no way, think I deserve it. One sets themselves up for disappointment when they think that way.

I think the Chiefs owe it to the fans to put the best team they can on the field. Have they done that? Absolutely not.

If we are going to have to rebuild anyway, I don't understand this line of thinking. We have to find a new QB in a year or 2, wide receivers, an offensive line along with getting a real defense.

Why not give the offense that has put up enormous numbers over the last 4 years the opportunity for a SB by getting stud defensive players even if we have to stretch the cap?

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:20 AM
And it only took two years to get 13 wins and a first round bye with a completely different team. Looks like "salary cap hell" can be a pretty short trip....

Following my genious (chiefsplanet spelling) Lexicon, a lot of it was luck.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:21 AM
We still had dead cap space from Derrick Alexander up until last year, right?

Possibly, if he was cut after June 1, 2002 the second half of his remaining SB would have been allocated in '04.

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 10:23 AM
Yeah, I did say '04 was the year.... the year where our "window of opportunity" was widest.

'03 we entered coming off a mediocre at best '02. We added a couple of vet FAs and the O kept on clicking. The D fell short in the playoff game. Add a couple of more players, and take the next step in <i><b>2004</b></i>. Thus, 2004 was <i>the</i> year. We knew we were just a couple of players and a DC short. Instead, we trot out a BS excuse, sit on our f*cking thumbs, and FAIL. 2004 was a wasted season. Another year of great O, no D. Oh yeah, and an injured RB and older players. Nice.

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 10:24 AM
So what happens if we "get aggressive" but still don't win the Superbowl?

There are no guarantees and no, the city and the fans don't deserve a Superbowl win. They are owed what they pay for, 8 football games.
I'd love to see the Chiefs win a Superbowl just as much as the next guy but I, in no way, think I deserve it. One sets themselves up for disappointment when they think that way.

If they don't win a SuperBowl, then at least they took there best shot at it. I could live with that much more than KC bringing in and signing 2nd tier free agents so we can go 8-8 again in 2008.

You can believe what you like, but I think after:

Stenerud missing three field goals in the '71 Christmas Day playoff game.

A phantom holding call on Szott and Lowery hitting the cross bar on a game winning field goal.

Joe Montana banging his head against the turf in Buffalo.

Steve Bono completing more passes to the Colts than to his receivers in '95.

Lin Elliot

Elvis Grbac holding his hands over his ear holes on the last drive of the '97 playoff game against Denver.

The TD called back on Gonzalez in the '97 playoff game.

The _efense not forcing a freaking punt against Indy in '03.

...this city and the FANS do DESERVE another Superbowl.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:25 AM
I think the Chiefs owe it to the fans to put the best team they can on the field. Have they done that? Absolutely not.

If we are going to have to rebuild anyway, I don't understand this line of thinking. We have to find a new QB in a year or 2, wide receivers, an offensive line along with getting a real defense.

Why not give the offense that has put up enormous numbers over the last 4 years the opportunity for a SB by getting stud defensive players even if we have to stretch the cap?

The Chiefs owe the fans 8 football games.
It's in their best interest to put the best team on the field because they run the risk of losing their customers if they don't.

I hope everyone remembers 2-3 years from now when we've got Rich Kotite for a head coach and we're going 3-13 how nice it was that we "got aggresive" in free agency and made an attempt to go for it all.

The Chiefs are going to get some players this offseason. Some fans will like them, some won't. Regardless of who we get, the chances of us not winning the Superbowl will be quite a bit less than the chances of us winning the Superbowl. Nothing will ever change that.

bricks
03-03-2005, 10:26 AM
Why not give the offense that has put up enormous numbers over the last 4 years the opportunity for a SB by getting stud defensive players even if we have to stretch the cap?

Exactly. I agree. Carl has failed miserably to do that. It showed last year when we standed pat. Let's face it Grob shoulda been gone 2 years ago, and, we failed there cause we kept him around. Along with that, re-signing all our scrubs on defense. There is nobody too blame except Carl and Dick. Their the reasons why we failed.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:26 AM
If they don't win a SuperBowl, then at least they took there best shot at it. I could live with that much more than KC bringing in and signing 2nd tier free agents so we can go 8-8 again in 2008.

You can believe what you like, but I think after:

Stenerud missing three field goals in the '71 Christmas Day playoff game.

A phantom holding call on Szott and Lowery hitting the cross bar on a game winning field goal.

Joe Montana banging his head against the turf in Buffalo.

Steve Bono completing more passes to the Colts than to his receivers in '95.

Lin Elliot

Elvis Grbac holding his hands over his ear holes on the last drive of the '97 playoff game against Denver.

The TD called back on Gonzalez in the '97 playoff game.

The _efense not forcing a freaking punt against Indy in '03.

...this city and the FANS do DESERVE another Superbowl.

Don't forget Carl drafting Blackledge.

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 10:27 AM
If they don't win a SuperBowl, then at least they took there best shot at it. I could live with that much more than KC bringing in and signing 2nd tier free agents so we can go 8-8 again in 2008.

Nah, it's much <i>safer</i> to get a nice, cheap, 2nd/3rd tier FA in the latter stages of the FA period, and draft "reach", errr, "diamonds in the rough"-type players in the draft (because they're easier to sign). That way we can have a good cap number and be competitive. That's all we can ask for you know? Being competitive.


F*ck that. If you never climb out on the limb, you'll never get the fruit.

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 10:28 AM
Don't forget Carl drafting Blackledge.

Um, yeah.

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 10:28 AM
Nah, it's much <i>safer</i> to get a nice, cheap, 2nd/3rd tier FA in the latter stages of the FA period, and draft "reach", errr, "diamonds in the rough"-type players in the draft (because they're easier to sign). That way we can have a good cap number and be competitive. That's all we can ask for you know? Being competitive.


F*ck that. If you never climb out on the limb, you'll never get the fruit.

Amen, brotha.

I believe!!

bricks
03-03-2005, 10:29 AM
You know what?? It not like he didn't try to improve the defense, he did try, but, sucked majorly at it. What's killing us is ther huge contracts he dished out previously to Barber, McCleon, Holliday. Plus, re-signing all those scrubs, like Hicks, Woods, Bartee. It's no wonder why we are tied up in cap space.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:29 AM
F*ck that. If you never climb out on the limb, you'll never get the fruit.

That's easy to say when it's someone else's money and butt on the line.

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 10:30 AM
That's easy to say when it's someone else's money and butt on the line.

Lamar? Clark? Is that you?

The Bad Guy
03-03-2005, 10:31 AM
The Chiefs owe the fans 8 football games.
It's in their best interest to put the best team on the field because they run the risk of losing their customers if they don't.

I hope everyone remembers 2-3 years from now when we've got Rich Kotite for a head coach and we're going 3-13 how nice it was that we "got aggresive" in free agency and made an attempt to go for it all.

The Chiefs are going to get some players this offseason. Some fans will like them, some won't. Regardless of who we get, the chances of us not winning the Superbowl will be quite a bit less than the chances of us winning the Superbowl. Nothing will ever change that.

What's the difference between going 3-13, 7-9, 6-10, 8-8?

A high draft pick.

If you don't make the playoffs, I don't care what the record is.

Chiefs have had 2 playoff appearances since 1997 and just 1 top 10 pick in that time.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:32 AM
You know what?? It not like he didn't try to improve the defense, he did try, but, sucked majorly at it. What's killing us is ther huge contracts he dished out previously to Barber, McCleon, Holliday. Plus, re-signing all those scrubs, like Hicks, Woods, Bartee. It's no wonder why we are tied up in cap space.

Why dish out more huge contracts if it's pretty much guaranteed that whoever we give them to will suck? I mean, it is Carl do the dishing.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:32 AM
Chiefs have had 2 playoff appearances since 1997 and just 1 top 10 pick in that time.

And they managed to waste that one pick...*gah!*

The Bad Guy
03-03-2005, 10:32 AM
That's easy to say when it's someone else's money and butt on the line.

Yeah, Carl Peterson's ass has been on the line for so long now. :rolleyes:

I really wish people would stop talking like Lamar Hunt ownes a local five & dime. He's a friggen billionaire.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:32 AM
Lamar? Clark? Is that you?

Um, yeah.

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 10:34 AM
That's easy to say when it's someone else's money and butt on the line.

lol, it's that chickenshit attitude that's kept this team out of the SB for 35 years :)

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:35 AM
Yeah, Carl Peterson's ass has been on the line for so long now. :rolleyes:

I really wish people would stop talking like Lamar Hunt ownes a local five & dime. He's a friggen billionaire.

Yes, his livelyhood has been on the line. It's not his fault that Lamar Hunt favors him over randomly hiring and firing guys.
I never said anything about how much money Lamar Hunt has. It makes no difference how much he has. The difference is that if it was your money, you'd probably see the situation a little differently.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:35 AM
lol, it's that chickenshit attitude that's kept this team out of the SB for 35 years :)

But, Carl's only in year 15 of his 5 year plan...how do we explain the other 20?

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 10:36 AM
Um, yeah.

No seriously, are you on their payroll or something?

I can think of no other justification for your line of thinking from a fan's perspective.

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 10:36 AM
But, Carl's only in year 15 of his 5 year plan...how do we explain the other 20?

Easy: Jack Steadman.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:37 AM
lol, it's that chickenshit attitude that's kept this team out of the SB for 35 years :)

You'll have to talk to the team owner about that. I'd guess you'll have a hard time convincing him to change his line of thinking though seeing as it's his team and his money and he's free to do whatever he wants with it.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:38 AM
No seriously, are you on their payroll or something?

I can think of no other justification for your line of thinking from a fan's perspective.

OMG! LOL....

nmt1
03-03-2005, 10:38 AM
No seriously, are you on their payroll or something?

I can think of no other justification for your line of thinking from a fan's perspective.

I guess you're just a better fan than me.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:39 AM
Easy: Jack Steadman.

You know, you might be right. Jack still does work in Hunt's organization in some capacity. He might just be the common demoninator here which exposes why KC hasnt given a SB to its fans.

Dammit Steadman!

Manila-Chief
03-03-2005, 10:40 AM
Yeah, Carl Peterson's ass has been on the line for so long now. :rolleyes:

I really wish people would stop talking like Lamar Hunt ownes a local five & dime. He's a friggen billionaire.

And it was reported he made $30 mil in profits last year.

I think it does all go back to the owner. If he wanted to win a S.B. then we would come a lot closer to it.

Dude ... I don't understand you the Chiefs owe the fans 8 games ... is that the only games you watch. You sound like either a young squirt just starting out being a fan or not a real fan ... I mean you sound like a fan who doesn't care about winning. That is what sports is all about ... winning .... not just how they play the games...

Wallcrawler
03-03-2005, 10:40 AM
I'll be a fan 13 years from now playoff wins or not. Will you?



That really depends on how things go. Ive been really, REALLY disgusted with the Chiefs organization as of late.

When it becomes pretty clear that the organization cares more about filling the stands and selling tickets than winning a championship, that leads me to believe that I should probably start cheering for another team if I want to be seeing my favorite team with the Superbowl.

The Chiefs were DEAD F'ING LAST in nearly every single solitary defensive stat last offseason. And what happened? They brought in no reputable new players in an offseason that had some quality free agents, only bargain basement pickups like Lional Dalton.

Clearly, they werent interested in improving the defense, or they wouldnt have signed back all their shitty starters instead of going out and acquiring some real talent.

I dont just watch the Chiefs to see them win 7 or 8 games, just for something to burn 3 hours on a Sunday. Im looking for that Playoff run and Superbowl victory. This team has had the offense to get that done for a few seasons now. And after a 13-3 season, CARRYING that pathetic defense, they still didnt see fit to buy any players to get it any better. Clearly, to me that says that winning a championship isnt high priority. Making a profit is, and that pisses me the F off. The Fans dont pay for their tickets just for something to do. They want to see them win a championship, and the cheap ass front office not doing anything to make that happen is a slap in the face to the fans. How they could just stand pat on defense when it was so bad.....its beyond my comprehension.

We had ONE guy in for an interview, and that was Troy Vincent, and he left without the Chiefs even making him an offer.


You might watch the Chiefs as a hobby, some passing thing where you dont really give a shit if they win a playoff game or not, but there are those of us who want to see the Chiefs win that superbowl that they are capable of if the Front Office would just lay out a little bit of cash to bring some capable defenders in here before this amazing offense is broken up by retirements.

One would think that 13 years without a playoff victory would be motivation for the Front Office to try to get just a bit more done in the Free Agency than what they have done in the past. Clearly, the past approaches have not worked, nor will they work in the future.


The offense probably has 1-2 more years left to perform at this high of a level, and then its going to be rebuilding from offense to defense completely, and the hopes of a superbowl become even more remote.

Anyone with any sense knows that the clock is ticking on this Chiefs team to win a SB. The time is NOW to get that defense up to standard and get this offense the help that it deserves. Its been carrying the team for 3 years now. Time to reward them with a little F'ing help so that they can actually be rewarded for performing so well, and not see all their hard work an awesome performances go down the toilet because the defense couldnt stop a high school JV team.


F the cap in 3 years. Its going to be a major rebuilding process by that time anyway, given the age of our offense. Get the players in NOW, and GO FOR IT. The fans have given the Front office enough profit with no return. Its time that we get at least something that shows the Front office would in fact like to win a SB, and not just make a profit.

The Bad Guy
03-03-2005, 10:40 AM
Yes, his livelyhood has been on the line. It's not his fault that Lamar Hunt favors him over randomly hiring and firing guys.
I never said anything about how much money Lamar Hunt has. It makes no difference how much he has. The difference is that if it was your money, you'd probably see the situation a little differently.

If I was an NFL owner, I can assure you I would not. I'm very competitive and not winning a SB in 35 years, or a playoff game in 12, would eat the shit out of me to the point where I would spend money necessary - esp. if my name was on the AFC champions trophy and I was close to passing on. It would be worth something to me to hold a trophy with my name on it one last time.

His livelyhood? You are really, really reaching now. He was hired to do a job as a GM, made a 5-year plan promise, and is in year 16 (i could be off here) and has been to one AFC championship game.

Iowanian
03-03-2005, 10:40 AM
They just gave the listing of past few years of 2nd round picks. Some scouts need their asses fired.

Trade for McGlockton
Kevin Lockett
Mike Cloud
Bartee
Freeman
Vermiel
Kawika Mitchell
Siavii and Wilson.


I do honestly believe a Chiefsplanet Poll winner could perform as well for the team than the average Chiefs 2nd round pick. It sure makes the Surtain thing look better, given past results.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:42 AM
You might watch the Chiefs as a hobby, some passing thing where you dont really give a shit if they win a playoff game or not, but there are those of us who want to see the Chiefs win that superbowl that they are capable of if the Front Office would just lay out a little bit of cash to bring some capable defenders in here before this amazing offense is broken up by retirements.

So watching the Chiefs for you is not a hobby, what exactly is it besides a form of entertainment?

Im curious...

Chiefnj
03-03-2005, 10:42 AM
Free agency is like Christmas for titus and nmt1. This board brings them so much fund and joy from March until the draft.

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 10:42 AM
I guess you're just a better fan than me.

Glad we settled that.

:)

The Bad Guy
03-03-2005, 10:43 AM
They just gave the listing of past few years of 2nd round picks. Some scouts need their asses fired.

Trade for McGlockton
Kevin Lockett
Mike Cloud
Bartee
Freeman
Vermiel
Kawika Mitchell
Siavii and Wilson.


I do honestly believe a Chiefsplanet Poll winner could perform as well for the team than the average Chiefs 2nd round pick. It sure makes the Surtain thing look better, given past results.

There have been 3 decent picks in the last TWENTY years. I posted this the other day. Okoye, Tongue, Grunhard.

That's it. That's why I'm in favor of trading a #2 for Surtain.

kc rush
03-03-2005, 10:44 AM
Yes, his livelyhood has been on the line. It's not his fault that Lamar Hunt favors him over randomly hiring and firing guys.
I never said anything about how much money Lamar Hunt has. It makes no difference how much he has. The difference is that if it was your money, you'd probably see the situation a little differently.

I wouldn't see it any differently, because I am a fan.

I'm not saying Lamar isn't a fan of his own team, but he isn't as fanatical as most fans.

If I had billions of dollars and a team that was making a profit every year but wasn't seeing the on-field results, I would inject cash into the system and take those shots occasionally. I would take those shots especially if I saw where the problem was on the team and knew that it was fixable.

He doesn't need to turn into Daniel Snyder, but seizing the opportunity when you are so close only makes sense to me.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:44 AM
Dude ... I don't understand you the Chiefs owe the fans 8 games ... is that the only games you watch. You sound like either a young squirt just starting out being a fan or not a real fan ... I mean you sound like a fan who doesn't care about winning. That is what sports is all about ... winning .... not just how they play the games...

nmt1 is a little whippersnapper who doesnt watch any of the games.

jspchief
03-03-2005, 10:45 AM
That's easy to say when it's someone else's money and butt on the line.

If Lamar doesn't like the risk involved with satisfying his customers, he needs to get into a different business. Today's fan expects more than they did 20 years ago, and the price they pay warrants it.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:45 AM
Free agency is like Christmas for titus and nmt1. This board brings them so much fund and joy from March until the draft.

You honestly have no idea how much Im enjoying this...

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:46 AM
If Lamar doesn't like the risk involved with satisfying his customers, he needs to get into a different business. Today's fan expects more than they did 20 years ago, and the price they pay warrants it.


That would explain the sold out stadiums today vs. the 13k annually when I was there.

siberian khatru
03-03-2005, 10:47 AM
Free agency is like Christmas for titus and nmt1. This board brings them so much fund and joy from March until the draft.

They're getting PAID for this???

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 10:47 AM
You honestly have no idea how much Im enjoying this...

Yes I do. :)

WilliamTheIrish
03-03-2005, 10:48 AM
They just gave the listing of past few years of 2nd round picks. Some scouts need their asses fired.

Trade for McGlockton
Kevin Lockett
Mike Cloud
Bartee
Freeman
Vermiel
Kawika Mitchell
Siavii and Wilson.


I do honestly believe a Chiefsplanet Poll winner could perform as well for the team than the average Chiefs 2nd round pick. It sure makes the Surtain thing look better, given past results.

ChristAlmighty.... That is a really, really,really,really, bad list.

Bartee? In the 2nd?

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 10:49 AM
They're getting PAID for this???

dont worry, it's a pittance...they said they didnt have any money.

Chief Henry
03-03-2005, 10:49 AM
If they don't win a SuperBowl, then at least they took there best shot at it. I could live with that much more than KC bringing in and signing 2nd tier free agents so we can go 8-8 again in 2008.

You can believe what you like, but I think after:

Stenerud missing three field goals in the '71 Christmas Day playoff game.

A phantom holding call on Szott and Lowery hitting the cross bar on a game winning field goal.

Joe Montana banging his head against the turf in Buffalo.

Steve Bono completing more passes to the Colts than to his receivers in '95.

Lin Elliot

Elvis Grbac holding his hands over his ear holes on the last drive of the '97 playoff game against Denver.

The TD called back on Gonzalez in the '97 playoff game.

The _efense not forcing a freaking punt against Indy in '03.

...this city and the FANS do DESERVE another Superbowl.




AMEN BRO...one rep heading your way.

jspchief
03-03-2005, 10:50 AM
That would explain the sold out stadiums today vs. the 13k annually when I was there.
No, winning explains that.

How do explain the waiting list for season tickets in the 90s, but no waiting list the last three years? A few years back a local TV station almost had to buy out unsold tickets to avoid a blackout. Did that ever happen in the 90s?

The fans are seeing ticket price increases every year. If you think we'll continue to fill Arrowhead through eternity as an 8-8 team, you're drinking too much kool-aid.

siberian khatru
03-03-2005, 10:52 AM
dont worry, it's a pittance...they said they didnt have any money.

And yet, the Broncos always find a way to pay their apologists.


:p

Chiefnj
03-03-2005, 10:52 AM
They're getting PAID for this???

They get a dime for every offseason thread about how the Chiefs don't care about winning. That's the real reason why Lamar can't sign free agents, all of his money has gone to Titus.

Manila-Chief
03-03-2005, 10:59 AM
That really depends on how things go. Ive been really, REALLY disgusted with the Chiefs organization as of late.

When it becomes pretty clear that the organization cares more about filling the stands and selling tickets than winning a championship, that leads me to believe that I should probably start cheering for another team if I want to be seeing my favorite team with the Superbowl.

The Chiefs were DEAD F'ING LAST in nearly every single solitary defensive stat last offseason. And what happened? They brought in no reputable new players in an offseason that had some quality free agents, only bargain basement pickups like Lional Dalton.

Clearly, they werent interested in improving the defense, or they wouldnt have signed back all their shitty starters instead of going out and acquiring some real talent.

I dont just watch the Chiefs to see them win 7 or 8 games, just for something to burn 3 hours on a Sunday. Im looking for that Playoff run and Superbowl victory. This team has had the offense to get that done for a few seasons now. And after a 13-3 season, CARRYING that pathetic defense, they still didnt see fit to buy any players to get it any better. Clearly, to me that says that winning a championship isnt high priority. Making a profit is, and that pisses me the F off. The Fans dont pay for their tickets just for something to do. They want to see them win a championship, and the cheap ass front office not doing anything to make that happen is a slap in the face to the fans. How they could just stand pat on defense when it was so bad.....its beyond my comprehension.

We had ONE guy in for an interview, and that was Troy Vincent, and he left without the Chiefs even making him an offer.


You might watch the Chiefs as a hobby, some passing thing where you dont really give a shit if they win a playoff game or not, but there are those of us who want to see the Chiefs win that superbowl that they are capable of if the Front Office would just lay out a little bit of cash to bring some capable defenders in here before this amazing offense is broken up by retirements.

One would think that 13 years without a playoff victory would be motivation for the Front Office to try to get just a bit more done in the Free Agency than what they have done in the past. Clearly, the past approaches have not worked, nor will they work in the future.


The offense probably has 1-2 more years left to perform at this high of a level, and then its going to be rebuilding from offense to defense completely, and the hopes of a superbowl become even more remote.

Anyone with any sense knows that the clock is ticking on this Chiefs team to win a SB. The time is NOW to get that defense up to standard and get this offense the help that it deserves. Its been carrying the team for 3 years now. Time to reward them with a little F'ing help so that they can actually be rewarded for performing so well, and not see all their hard work an awesome performances go down the toilet because the defense couldnt stop a high school JV team.


F the cap in 3 years. Its going to be a major rebuilding process by that time anyway, given the age of our offense. Get the players in NOW, and GO FOR IT. The fans have given the Front office enough profit with no return. Its time that we get at least something that shows the Front office would in fact like to win a SB, and not just make a profit.

What he said!!!!

Mark M
03-03-2005, 11:00 AM
Dude ... I don't understand you the Chiefs owe the fans 8 games ... is that the only games you watch. You sound like either a young squirt just starting out being a fan or not a real fan ... I mean you sound like a fan who doesn't care about winning. That is what sports is all about ... winning .... not just how they play the games...

At least I now know who's the arbiter of true fandom ...

I can sleep better knowing that if someone doesn't call Lamar Hunt cheap, blame Carl for 35 years of failure, or whine about ticket prices, he or she is not a real fan. I mean, there's no way that person could care about the team, is there?

MM
~~:shake:

htismaqe
03-03-2005, 11:06 AM
They get a dime for every offseason thread about how the Chiefs don't care about winning. That's the real reason why Lamar can't sign free agents, all of his money has gone to Titus.

I get a regular paycheck whether I defend him or not.

That's the benefit of reporting directly to the CAO.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 11:37 AM
And it was reported he made $30 mil in profits last year.

I think it does all go back to the owner. If he wanted to win a S.B. then we would come a lot closer to it.

Dude ... I don't understand you the Chiefs owe the fans 8 games ... is that the only games you watch. You sound like either a young squirt just starting out being a fan or not a real fan ... I mean you sound like a fan who doesn't care about winning. That is what sports is all about ... winning .... not just how they play the games...

How dare you question my fandom!

nmt1
03-03-2005, 11:40 AM
If I was an NFL owner, I can assure you I would not. I'm very competitive and not winning a SB in 35 years, or a playoff game in 12, would eat the shit out of me to the point where I would spend money necessary - esp. if my name was on the AFC champions trophy and I was close to passing on. It would be worth something to me to hold a trophy with my name on it one last time.

His livelyhood? You are really, really reaching now. He was hired to do a job as a GM, made a 5-year plan promise, and is in year 16 (i could be off here) and has been to one AFC championship game.

I'm glad you'd be a better owner than Lamar Hunt. Get yourself a couple of hundred mil and buy a team.

Is Carl's livelyhood not being GM of the Chiefs? Regardless of what he said, Lamar Hunt signs his paychecks. It's Lamar's team and he'll hire and fire whoever he'd like. Pretty simple.

keg in kc
03-03-2005, 11:40 AM
Shut the hell up, nmt1, you're not a REAL FAN™.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 11:42 AM
No, winning explains that.

How do explain the waiting list for season tickets in the 90s, but no waiting list the last three years? A few years back a local TV station almost had to buy out unsold tickets to avoid a blackout. Did that ever happen in the 90s?

The fans are seeing ticket price increases every year. If you think we'll continue to fill Arrowhead through eternity as an 8-8 team, you're drinking too much kool-aid.

Feh...Im not the one buying tickets or going to the games. If you're going given your criticisms, I think it's pretty clear who's 'drinking the kool aid'

tomahawk kid
03-03-2005, 11:43 AM
Is Carl's livelyhood not being GM of the Chiefs? Regardless of what he said, Lamar Hunt signs his paychecks. It's Lamar's team and he'll hire and fire whoever he'd like. Pretty simple.

If you think that Lamar would / will ever fire Carl Peterson, you're kidding yourself.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 11:43 AM
They get a dime for every offseason thread about how the Chiefs don't care about winning. That's the real reason why Lamar can't sign free agents, all of his money has gone to Titus.

ehp...secret's out...I have eleventy billion of Lamars money.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 11:44 AM
If Lamar doesn't like the risk involved with satisfying his customers, he needs to get into a different business. Today's fan expects more than they did 20 years ago, and the price they pay warrants it.

I honestly have no idea how much risk Lamar is willing to endure. Though I do know it would be stupid for him to sell the Chiefs. It's one of his biggest money makers, I'd guess.
I don't care what today's fan expects. They pay for 8 football games and they get 8 football games. They don't pay for guaranteed Superbowl victories.

Wallcrawler
03-03-2005, 11:47 AM
I They pay for 8 football games and they get 8 football games. They don't pay for guaranteed Superbowl victories.



:rolleyes:



Nothing is guaranteed. Any fool knows that. But the organization should at least "make it look like" the organization cares more about making a profit, and actually wants to try for a superbowl.

Its not too much to ask.

keg in kc
03-03-2005, 11:48 AM
I don't think people are just paying for 8 games, they're paying to see a competitive team play 8 games, they're paying to see what they expect to be a winner. There's a reason ticket sales suffer when you're losing.

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 11:50 AM
Is Carl's livelyhood not being GM of the Chiefs? Regardless of what he said, Lamar Hunt signs his paychecks. It's Lamar's team and he'll hire and fire whoever he'd like. Pretty simple.


IMO the problem w/ Carl is a conflict of interests. Yes, he's the GM... but he's also the President and CEO. I think there needs to be separation between the football administrative functions (GM) and the business-side of the operation (Pres/CEO).

The GM's responsibility is to provide the team with coaches and players capable of winning... hopefully, with the sincere goal of winning the SB. He negotiates the contracts and ensures the team is capable of keeping it's "core" players (and coaches).

Where the conflict arises is on the business side. The Pres & CEO works for one purpose: the bottom line. Profitability, first & foremost.

What <i>I</i>, and a significant portion of the Chiefs fanbase sees, is more emphasis put on profitability, rather than success. Emphasis for success MUST exist, or profitability suffers... however there is a fine line one can walk to maximize profits w/o spending a lot to guarantee success. That's the tightrope act I see CP & the Chiefs FO walking.... they've been doing so since about 1999.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 11:53 AM
No, winning explains that.

I thought we hadn't won anything in years.

The fans are seeing ticket price increases every year. If you think we'll continue to fill Arrowhead through eternity as an 8-8 team, you're drinking too much kool-aid.

I don't expect you to fill the stadium if you're not satisfied with the product. I've said this many times: If you don't like it, stop going to the games and stop buying merchandise. It's the only way you're going to have an effect on the Chiefs.
Look at it this way. There's a very popular restaurant near your home. So popular that everyone in your city wants to go there every Friday night. You live close enough to get there every Friday before the rest of the crowd. The food REALLY, REALLY sucks in the restaurant and makes you sick when you eat there. Do you keep going just because you live close enough to beat the crowd or do you find somewhere else to go because the food sucks and it makes you sick?

keg in kc
03-03-2005, 11:54 AM
I've been saying what you said there for years HC. Carl's been tremendously successful as President/CEO, but as a GM he's left something to be desired. And I think there is a real conflict between the two sides of his job.

Actually, I don't think the problem is just carl, I'm not sure the entire player evaluation side of the organization couldn't use a complete overhaul. We've not done well with drafting for the last decade, and have had mixed results with trades and free agency. There's been an awful lot of failure in that arena, without much success to balance it.

I'd like to think we're due some good things, that maybe all the negative will eventually flip, but I'm too cynical to think the world works like that. I don't believe in luck.

And I also don't think Carl is singularly responsible for everything. I think Lamar should shoulder some blame for his conservative nature, not being willing (at times) to open his checkbook in terms of bonus money. While at other times he's been quite generous. He's where, ultimately, the issue of profit over winning falls, in my book. And I don't necessarily fault him for that, from a business perspective I understand, but as a fan...

nmt1
03-03-2005, 11:55 AM
If you think that Lamar would / will ever fire Carl Peterson, you're kidding yourself.

He may and he may not. Neither you nor I have any control over that.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 11:56 AM
:rolleyes:



Nothing is guaranteed. Any fool knows that. But the organization should at least "make it look like" the organization cares more about making a profit, and actually wants to try for a superbowl.

Its not too much to ask.

So it's OK not to win the Superbowl if you "make it look like" you want to?

nmt1
03-03-2005, 11:57 AM
I don't think people are just paying for 8 games, they're paying to see a competitive team play 8 games, they're paying to see what they expect to be a winner. There's a reason ticket sales suffer when you're losing.

Do the Chiefs guarantee 8 competitive games?

Scaga
03-03-2005, 11:57 AM
Damn...
I thought this thread might have something to do with Chiefs news.
:banghead:

htismaqe
03-03-2005, 11:59 AM
I've been saying what you said there for years HC. Carl's been tremendously successful as President/CEO, but as a GM he's left something to be desired. And I think there is a real conflict between the two sides of his job.

Actually, I don't think the problem is just carl, I'm not sure the entire player evaluation side of the organization couldn't use a complete overhaul. We've not done well with drafting for the last decade, and have had mixed results with trades and free agency. There's been an awful lot of failure in that arena, without much success to balance it.

I'd like to think we're due some good things, that maybe all the negative will eventually flip, but I'm too cynical to think the world works like that. I don't believe in luck.

And I also don't think Carl is singularly responsible for everything. I think Lamar should shoulder some blame for his conservative nature, not being willing (at times) to open his checkbook in terms of bonus money. While at other times he's been quite generous. He's where, ultimately, the issue of profit over winning falls, in my book. And I don't necessarily fault him for that, from a business perspective I understand, but as a fan...

To quote Hank Hill:

Yep.

I honestly wonder how Colts fans feel. Their team has followed an almost IDENTICAL path since they moved to Indy.

The Bad Guy
03-03-2005, 11:59 AM
I'm glad you'd be a better owner than Lamar Hunt. Get yourself a couple of hundred mil and buy a team.

Is Carl's livelyhood not being GM of the Chiefs? Regardless of what he said, Lamar Hunt signs his paychecks. It's Lamar's team and he'll hire and fire whoever he'd like. Pretty simple.
So you think that Carl's job is on the line? Is that what you're telling me?

He's a GM of a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 13 years. If his "livelyhood" was on the line, something tells me that it would of been taken away from him a long time ago if that was the case.

But it's not. Carl has more job security than GM's that make the playoffs (Seattle for one).

The NFL is a performance based business, but that theory doesn't apply to the Chiefs. They keep defensive players around when they don't get the job done, and they kept CP around about 5 years too long.

I wish I had a couple hundred million to buy a team. I guess I expect more than you do from Lamar Hunt.

Wallcrawler
03-03-2005, 12:01 PM
Do the Chiefs guarantee 8 competitive games?


Nothing is guaranteed.

But there is that nice, bitter illusion that we Chiefs fans have every season.....

Whats that called again?


Oh yeah.


Hope.

keg in kc
03-03-2005, 12:01 PM
Do the Chiefs guarantee 8 competitive games?That's not the question. The question is whether you're ('you' in a general sense) willing to pay for 8 games if they're not competitive, which they have not been for the greater part of the last decade, like it or not.

I certainly wouldn't. I wouldn't pay just to see the Chiefs play a game I didn't think they could win. And I think the longer this string of mediocrity goes, the more difficulty they'll have filling the stands.

Which is ultimately why I don't believe they don't care about winning, and only about profit: because they DO want to fill the stands. And the only way you can do that is by winning. That's the inherent fallacy of that argument. People will not pay to see a loser, and they know it.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 12:01 PM
IMO the problem w/ Carl is a conflict of interests. Yes, he's the GM... but he's also the President and CEO. I think there needs to be separation between the football administrative functions (GM) and the business-side of the operation (Pres/CEO).

The GM's responsibility is to provide the team with coaches and players capable of winning... hopefully, with the sincere goal of winning the SB. He negotiates the contracts and ensures the team is capable of keeping it's "core" players (and coaches).

Where the conflict arises is on the business side. The Pres & CEO works for one purpose: the bottom line. Profitability, first & foremost.

What <i>I</i>, and a significant portion of the Chiefs fanbase sees, is more emphasis put on profitability, rather than success. Emphasis for success MUST exist, or profitability suffers... however there is a fine line one can walk to maximize profits w/o spending a lot to guarantee success. That's the tightrope act I see CP & the Chiefs FO walking.... they've been doing so since about 1999.

I don't disagree with you at all. The real problem is that a significant portion of the Chiefs fanbase is not so upset with the team for "not winning anything in years" that they have stopped going to the games. Only when those fans stop going to the games will things change.

The Bad Guy
03-03-2005, 12:01 PM
Do the Chiefs guarantee 8 competitive games?

If you have such a lax attitude about the Chiefs then why even bother debating?

penguinz
03-03-2005, 12:02 PM
I wish I had a hundred million to buy a team. I guess I expect more than you do from Lamar Hunt.
What team do you think you are going to get for $100 million?

htismaqe
03-03-2005, 12:03 PM
That's not the question. The question is whether you're ('you' in a general sense) willing to pay for 8 games if they're not competitive, which they have not been for the greater part of the last decade, like it or not.

I certainly wouldn't. I wouldn't pay just to see the Chiefs play a game I didn't think they could win. And I think the longer this string of mediocrity goes, the more difficulty they'll have filling the stands.

Which is ultimately why I don't believe they don't care about winning, and only about profit: because they DO want to fill the stands. And the only way you can do that is by winning. That's the inherent fallacy of that argument. People will not pay to see a loser.

To quote Dale Gribble:

Yep.

htismaqe
03-03-2005, 12:03 PM
I don't disagree with you at all. The real problem is that a significant portion of the Chiefs fanbase is not so upset with the team for "not winning anything in years" that they have stopped going to the games. Only when those fans stop going to the games will things change.

To quote Boomhauer:

Yep.

Coach
03-03-2005, 12:04 PM
To quote Bill:

Mmm-hmm

nmt1
03-03-2005, 12:04 PM
So you think that Carl's job is on the line? Is that what you're telling me?

He's a GM of a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 13 years. If his "livelyhood" was on the line, something tells me that it would of been taken away from him a long time ago if that was the case.

But it's not. Carl has more job security than GM's that make the playoffs (Seattle for one).

The NFL is a performance based business, but that theory doesn't apply to the Chiefs. They keep defensive players around when they don't get the job done, and they kept CP around about 5 years too long.

I wish I had a hundred million to buy a team. I guess I expect more than you do from Lamar Hunt.

I don't expect Carl to be fired. He will retire when he wants. That's Lamar's deal though.

You do expect more than I do. I subscribe to the addage: Expect little and you will receive much.

The Bad Guy
03-03-2005, 12:04 PM
What team do you think you are going to get for $100 million?

The Denver Broncos.

I fixed my typo, BTW.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 12:06 PM
Nothing is guaranteed.

But there is that nice, bitter illusion that we Chiefs fans have every season.....

Whats that called again?


Oh yeah.


Hope.

Oh I've got hope. I'm even delusional enough to think that we can win the big one with Carl as GM. Heck, I even think the Kris Wilson pick was a good one. I like Vermiel as a coach. I think he's great. I think Ryan Sims will play better next season. I'm optimistic about Priest Holmes' injury situation.
I'm very optimistic and hopeful.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 12:07 PM
The Denver Broncos.

I fixed my typo, BTW.

I hope that you run them for profit only, then...LOL!

nmt1
03-03-2005, 12:07 PM
That's not the question. The question is whether you're ('you' in a general sense) willing to pay for 8 games if they're not competitive, which they have not been for the greater part of the last decade, like it or not.

I certainly wouldn't. I wouldn't pay just to see the Chiefs play a game I didn't think they could win. And I think the longer this string of mediocrity goes, the more difficulty they'll have filling the stands.

Which is ultimately why I don't believe they don't care about winning, and only about profit: because they DO want to fill the stands. And the only way you can do that is by winning. That's the inherent fallacy of that argument. People will not pay to see a loser, and they know it.

See post #127.

keg in kc
03-03-2005, 12:07 PM
I don't disagree with you at all. The real problem is that a significant portion of the Chiefs fanbase is not so upset with the team for "not winning anything in years" that they have stopped going to the games. Only when those fans stop going to the games will things change.That's already changing. The waiting list for season tickets has eroded to nothing (as I understand it). The main problem is that the average fan, in a lot of cases, has been priced out, and a lot of the season ticket base seems to be of the "event" persuasion rather than the "fan" persuasion (not that you can't be a fan while attending an event....). But that won't last forever, either, if they don't reclaim the so-called "glory" of the 90s. The last 7-10 years have not been good, and Arrowhead isn't what it once was. People are losing faith, losing hope, even the most ardent fans. That's just reality. Loyalty will continue to erode the longer we hang around .500.

Wallcrawler
03-03-2005, 12:09 PM
You do expect more than I do. I subscribe to the addage: Expect little and you will receive much.



Ha ha. Yeah right.

Youve received exactly what the rest of us have genius. No playoff wins in 13 years, and no superbowl appearances in over 30.

If you call that receiving much, you should set the crack pipe down at your feet, and slowly back away.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 12:09 PM
If you have such a lax attitude about the Chiefs then why even bother debating?

I find the debate entertaining. I like to rib folks too.
I don't think my attitude about the Chiefs is lax. I choose not to worry about things I have no control over.

bricks
03-03-2005, 12:10 PM
what kills me as a fan of this team, is, the fact we missed the playoffs 7 of the last 8 years, and, we still keep the same GM. Our drafts have stunk over the past years, and, we still keep the same guy in charge, Lynn Stiles. I don't get it :shake: You can only be so loyal with ppl, and if they cant get the job done then your loyalty becomes a fault. I think that's the case with Lamar, he's too too too loyal to an absolute fault. Carl isn't doing his job, Stiles has drafted ineffective players. Carl shoulda fired Lyn, Lamar shoulda fired Carl. Our organization needs to grow a set of balls and fire those that aren't performing.
In turn, ppl aren't happy what else can I say.

chiefqueen
03-03-2005, 12:10 PM
Don't forget Carl drafting Blackledge.

Blackledge was drafted by the 3 "clowns" that ran the team b/f CP got here. I can't remember one guy's name, the other two wer Schaaf & Steadman.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 12:10 PM
That's already changing. The waiting list for season tickets has eroded to nothing (as I understand it). The main problem is that the average fan, in a lot of cases, has been priced out, and a lot of the season ticket base seems to be of the "event" persuasion rather than the "fan" persuasion (not that you can't be a fan while attending an event....). But that won't last forever, either, if they don't reclaim the so-called "glory" of the 90s. The last 7-10 years have not been good, and Arrowhead isn't what it once was. People are losing faith, losing hope, even the most ardent fans. That's just reality. Loyalty will continue to erode the longer we hang around .500.

I agree.

htismaqe
03-03-2005, 12:11 PM
Ha ha. Yeah right.

Youve received exactly what the rest of us have genius. No playoff wins in 13 years, and no superbowl appearances in over 30.

If you call that receiving much, you should set the crack pipe down at your feet, and slowly back away.

Did you bother to see what he said about EXPECTATIONS?

Maybe he expected to never win more than 6 games a season. If so, he's gotten more than expected SEVERAL times.

HC_Chief
03-03-2005, 12:13 PM
I don't disagree with you at all. The real problem is that a significant portion of the Chiefs fanbase is not so upset with the team for "not winning anything in years" that they have stopped going to the games. Only when those fans stop going to the games will things change.

Agreed.
I believe they are starting to feel it now. As someone already pointed out earlier, the waiting lists of the 90s have evaporated. Interest, though still high, has dipped. Grumblings are heard more & more.

I know I've done MY part: I did not spend ONE PENNY on Chiefs clothing, tickets, or other merchandise last year, nor would I allow my family to purchase it for me. I attended one game (Christmas -v- the faid) thanks to a free pass in a suite, or I would have boycotted Arrowhead entirely.

I'm fed up with them.

CosmicPal
03-03-2005, 12:13 PM
That's already changing.

I know this first-hand. My father is in town for some skiing, and he indicated to me last night while we were watching the KU-KSU game he was considering giving up his season tickets for the first time in thirty some years. He and his friends, who've all been season ticket holders since the Texans moved to KC are all now considering giving up their tickets.

I doubt he does- but, I know there must be a lot of season ticket holders who must be grumbling about the product on the field they've been paying for- for so many years

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 12:13 PM
Blackledge was drafted by the 3 "clowns" that ran the team b/f CP got here. I can't remember one guy's name, the other two wer Schaaf & Steadman.

Shh!

gblowfish
03-03-2005, 12:15 PM
Blackledge was drafted by the 3 "clowns" that ran the team b/f CP got here. I can't remember one guy's name, the other two wer Schaaf & Steadman.Actually clown #3 who swung the decision to take Sackledge was John "Sleepy" Mackovic, the NFL's only narcoleptic coach. The story is here:
http://www.georgeblowfish.com/chiefspage5.html

htismaqe
03-03-2005, 12:15 PM
Agreed.
I believe they are starting to feel it now. As someone already pointed out earlier, the waiting lists of the 90s have evaporated. Interest, though still high, has dipped. Grumblings are heard more & more.

I know I've done MY part: I did not spend ONE PENNY on Chiefs clothing, tickets, or other merchandise last year, nor would I allow my family to purchase it for me. I attended one game (Christmas -v- the faid) thanks to a free pass in a suite, or I would have boycotted Arrowhead entirely.

I'm fed up with them.

I'm right there with ya.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 12:15 PM
Ha ha. Yeah right.

Youve received exactly what the rest of us have genius. No playoff wins in 13 years, and no superbowl appearances in over 30.

If you call that receiving much, you should set the crack pipe down at your feet, and slowly back away.

You don't understand how it works. I was like you before. I got so upset about the playoff loss to Denver back in 97 that I didn't speak for a couple of hours. I decided after some thought that I was acting like a spoiled brat and that it is stupid to be so upset about something I have no control over and something that has a very small effect on my life.
I love the Chiefs but I don't need them to prop up my psyche.

You obviously don't get the deeper meaning of the phrase. I'm less disappointed than you because I have lesser or no expectations.

keg in kc
03-03-2005, 12:16 PM
I also think all it will take to reinvigorate the fan base is a couple of signings and then (this is most important) just one, single, solitary playoff win.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 12:17 PM
what kills me as a fan of this team, is, the fact we missed the playoffs 7 of the last 8 years, and, we still keep the same GM. Our drafts have stunk over the past years, and, we still keep the same guy in charge, Lynn Stiles. I don't get it :shake: You can only be so loyal with ppl, and if they cant get the job done then your loyalty becomes a fault. I think that's the case with Lamar, he's too too too loyal to an absolute fault. Carl isn't doing his job, Stiles has drafted ineffective players. Carl shoulda fired Lyn, Lamar shoulda fired Carl. Our organization needs to grow a set of balls and fire those that aren't performing.
In turn, ppl aren't happy what else can I say.

Have you been buying season tickets even though things have been this bad? If so, then it's your fault.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 12:18 PM
You don't understand how it works. I was like you before. I got so upset about the playoff loss to Denver back in 97 that I didn't speak for a couple of hours. I decided after some thought that I was acting like a spoiled brat and that it is stupid to be so upset about something I have no control over and something that has a very small effect on my life.
I love the Chiefs but I don't need them to prop up my psyche.

You obviously don't get the deeper meaning of the phrase. I'm less disappointed than you because I have lesser or no expectations.

Actually, it was the Indy loss in 1995...dang, that was a long time ago.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 12:20 PM
I also think all it will take to reinvigorate the fan base is a couple of signings and then (this is most important) just one, single, solitary playoff win.

I agree...heck, a playoff win this year would be equivalent to a SB win in my book.

htismaqe
03-03-2005, 12:21 PM
I agree...heck, a playoff win this year would be equivalent to a SB win in my book.

Me too.

Baby steps.

nmt1
03-03-2005, 12:22 PM
Actually, it was the Indy loss in 1995...dang, that was a long time ago.

I was upset about that too but I remember specifically being horribly upset after that Denver game. Man, I can't stand Elway and that game just capped it for me.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 12:22 PM
Me too.

Baby steps.

BABY? F! No! That would be a giant leap for Chiefs-kind!

nmt1
03-03-2005, 12:22 PM
Me too.

Baby steps.

Baby steps...to heck with that. I'll be happy with 8-8 as it will be one game better than what we did this past season.

keg in kc
03-03-2005, 12:24 PM
I agree...heck, a playoff win this year would be equivalent to a SB win in my book.I've started wondering if maybe the team hasn't lost hope, too, although they've had enough turnover that it shouldn't matter. I mean you can say you believe in yourself, but it's been 12 years since they won a meaningful game. Maybe one win is all they really need. Hell, I still think if they'd gotten by Indy in '03 they'd have beaten New England. But we'll never know.

Maybe there's a ghost that needs to be exorcised, is all I'm saying.

keg in kc
03-03-2005, 12:25 PM
Baby steps...to heck with that. I'll be happy with 8-8 as it will be one game better than what we did this past season.I'll always be disappointed with anything less than a playoff appearance. That's just my nature. Doesn't have anything to do with thinking I'm entitled to it or anything, I'm just the kind of guy who doesn't deal well with losing.

KCTitus
03-03-2005, 12:27 PM
I've started wondering if maybe the team hasn't lost hope, too, although they've had enough turnover that it shouldn't matter. I mean you can say you believe in yourself, but it's been 12 years since they won a meaningful game. Maybe one win is all they really need. Hell, I still think if they'd gotten by Indy in '03 they'd have beaten New England. But we'll never know.

Maybe there's a ghost that needs to be exorcised, is all I'm saying.

Yeah, The 'monkey on the back' thing...like Philly's 'getting over the hump' this year.

htismaqe
03-03-2005, 12:29 PM
Baby steps...to heck with that. I'll be happy with 8-8 as it will be one game better than what we did this past season.

Dude, 8-8?

Somebody slap this ****er!

:D

jspchief
03-03-2005, 12:40 PM
I honestly have no idea how much risk Lamar is willing to endure. Though I do know it would be stupid for him to sell the Chiefs. It's one of his biggest money makers, I'd guess.
I don't care what today's fan expects. They pay for 8 football games and they get 8 football games. They don't pay for guaranteed Superbowl victories.
I'm sorry, but this is a line of sh*t.

When I pay for a round of golf, I expect more than 18 holes in the ground. When I pay for a hamburger, I expect it to not taste like crap. I buy products with a certain expectation of quality. I also believe that the green fees at Pebble beach should get me a nicer course than the local goat trail.

I'm paying to watch football games at the highest level. Part of my expectation is that the team I pay to support puts forth maximum effort to give me a quality product. Just like my favorite golf course, I realize that not everything is completely predictable, but I also know the difference between dry conditions due to a drought, and dry conditions due to trying to save money on the water bill.

I'm not saying that I believe the FO is intentionally losing or doesn't care. But I do believe that they have played the safe route with mediocre results for long enough that it's time to take a risk. Chiefs fans are smart enough to recognize that the offense we currently have is not something that comes along often. We've had 15 years of making sure the boat floats, now it's time to set sail, even if we have to rock the boat to do it.

Mark M
03-03-2005, 12:49 PM
Not to be nit-picky, but fans pay for 10 games a year, not 8 ...

well, except for "true" fans -- they don't want to give any more money to that cheapass Lamar Hunt. Only fans that don't care about winning would do such a thing.

MM
~~:p

nmt1
03-03-2005, 01:16 PM
I'm sorry, but this is a line of sh*t.

When I pay for a round of golf, I expect more than 18 holes in the ground. When I pay for a hamburger, I expect it to not taste like crap. I buy products with a certain expectation of quality. I also believe that the green fees at Pebble beach should get me a nicer course than the local goat trail.

I'm paying to watch football games at the highest level. Part of my expectation is that the team I pay to support puts forth maximum effort to give me a quality product. Just like my favorite golf course, I realize that not everything is completely predictable, but I also know the difference between dry conditions due to a drought, and dry conditions due to trying to save money on the water bill.

I'm not saying that I believe the FO is intentionally losing or doesn't care. But I do believe that they have played the safe route with mediocre results for long enough that it's time to take a risk. Chiefs fans are smart enough to recognize that the offense we currently have is not something that comes along often. We've had 15 years of making sure the boat floats, now it's time to set sail, even if we have to rock the boat to do it.

You expect that hamburger to taste great and when it doesn't do you go and buy another one? You expect that golf course to be somewhat well kept but when it isn't, do you go back?
The Chiefs aren't living up to your expectations. Why do you continue to eat the hamburger from McCarl's and play golf at Arrowhead CC?

nmt1
03-03-2005, 01:18 PM
Not to be nit-picky, but fans pay for 10 games a year, not 8 ...

well, except for "true" fans -- they don't want to give any more money to that cheapass Lamar Hunt. Only fans that don't care about winning would do such a thing.

MM
~~:p

8...10...12...what difference does it make when we haven't won anything in years?