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View Full Version : Has our desire to win at all costs replaced our capacity for compassion and tolerance


Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 11:07 AM
****ing A.....

What is it that drives us to want victory above all else?...

Why do I feel like my guts are torn out when the Chiefs lose?...

In another thread someone said that we as fans would never love the game of football as much as the players...bull ****...we may love it more...or at least as much...

just waxing philosophic.... :confused:



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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

Dr. Red
12-06-2000, 11:21 AM
I've never wanted to 'win at all costs.' but I've always wanted maximum effort. And I'm not just talking about leaping to catch one certain pass, or powering through blocks on one certain play. I'm talking about from off-season workouts, through TC, into the season, with the mindset that success is the only measure. Building upon each success and learning from each failure. Never the same mistake twice.
We've gone from a team that wrung the most out of limited talent, to a team that squanders a great deal more talent.
In early '90's, you got the sense that DT and Schott willed the team to greatness. That will has not left per se, but I think it is a hoarse street-corner prophet, as opposed to the 'word of God' DT and Schott imposed.

[This message has been edited by JC-Johnny (edited 12-06-2000).]

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 11:27 AM
JC, in general though...the mentality of the day is win, win, win...

Ever watch a little league baseball, soccer or football game...the kids are having fun...the parents and coaches are killing each other...

I saw a video of a Pop Warner game...this little 7 year old kid intercepts a pass and is going for a TD when the coach of the opposing team, a grown man, comes off the sidelines and levels the little kid...it was really sad...

When it was a game...before the almighty dollar ruined it...now if you don't win you don't make money...

I feel very cynical today.

------------------
joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

Dr. Red
12-06-2000, 11:35 AM
I don't dispute that that mentality is out there and is spoiling a lot of sports. But I do dispute that that mentality has anything to do with the Chiefs' here and now.

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 11:43 AM
JC, I'm not saying that at all...actually it's the lack of that desire that is fueling the Chiefs right now...

I guess what I'm saying and I'm just feeling really introspective today...is why is winning so important?....why can't we just be happy with the contest?....the game is great...sometimes I wish I didn't have a favorite team and I could just watch football because I love football...but when the Chiefs lose, I'm so depressed that anything football reminds me of the Chiefs and that makes me more depressed...yes of course I still watch every game...yes, I always will...

Dr. Red
12-06-2000, 11:52 AM
I think its pretty inborne to seek to meet goals. It not that winning is everything EXACTLY, but that winning is the goal of a contest and we feel better when goals are met.
Ever just mindlessly throw rocks? Pretty soon, you're aiming for stuff, congratulating your self when you hit it. trying different arcs and approaches [granny-style, sidearm, velocity, etc].
Some people don't feel right until the house work is done, dishes put away, etc. Even if you know there will be no repurcussions, getting stuck in traffic, making you late for a meeting, puts you on edge. It all comes from the same place, wanting to meet your goals.

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 11:55 AM
But at what price?...sometimes I wonder if it's worth it...

I just want to love the game as i did as a child...when every team was my favorite team...when the only goal I had was to be able to watch 2 football teams play on a sunday...

Dr. Red
12-06-2000, 12:10 PM
I disagree, for the most part I think the accomplishment aspect gives it worth, rather than operating as a cost.
The baseball and basketball seasons comprise approximately a bajillion games. Too many to make fandom possible without something at stake. A team can go on a 3 cajillion game losing streak and still be in contention.
I've been to about 40-50 Cards games in the past 6-7 years, and for all the talk of the 'crack of the bat' and the 'smell of hot dogs and popcorn' they all meld into background noise after a while, except when they're in the playoff hunt or McGwire is chasing history.
I think the rock throwing example epitomizes how deeply ingrained this is. Everything we do is eventually demarkated by degrees of accomplishment or failure. Some push it too far, turning everything into a breakneck contest [I'm reminded of the 'racing rental cars scene in 'Days of Thunder']. But if success or failure doesn't matter, its not worth doing. Even playing catch with someone. Sure, its mostly mindless. But how long would you play catch with someone who never ever EVER caught the ball without so much as giving a pointer or two?

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 12:44 PM
I'm really not disagreeing with you...I just wish it wasn't the way it is...

Look at the Yankees...they win 3 of the last 4 WS so what do they do...they go out and get one of the best pithers in baseball, Messina, from Baltimore so they can win again...

It's sad but so true, everyone loves a winner....

Fortunately for us...wether the Chiefs win or lose...we will love them...

TheBigChief
12-06-2000, 12:49 PM
I'm starting to think this town is 99% filled with masochists. If you cheer for this suck-*** team, you pretty much have to have a sense of self-loathing and doubt.

Baby Lee
12-06-2000, 12:54 PM
Someone said something about "maximum effort," and I believe fans are entitled to at least that. Just look at the cost of a game ticket these days.

The parent that tackled the little kid truly needs help; however, I hope a bunch of large, angry bikers got to him before the police.

Donkey Drew
12-06-2000, 12:59 PM
Joe, I hope that you're exaggerating and that the Chiefs losing a football game doesn't depress you that much! I've been a Chiefs fan since birth and since I moved to LA 6 years ago, I haven't missed one game on TV and have gone to San Diego to watch the games, but have NEVER been depressed after a loss. It's just a game. And it's a game that we WATCH, we don't play. The only reason these guys make so much money is because of TV, not fans in the stands and they shouldn't be put on a pedestal for anything they do on the field. I want the best for the Chiefs because they're my favorite team (and the best would be to lose out, clean house and bring in a young, bright, driven Head Coach and staff to go along with our collection of talent and new draft choices), but I never let it affect my personal life or my life after the game is over. Winning in any sport is all that matters to the players and coaches, but as a guy who loves football and the Chiefs, I don't need the Chiefs to win to validate my life or favorite city. It's just a great way to kill 3 1/2 hours for 20 weeks. But it is nothing to be depressed over. EVER.

[This message has been edited by DaneMcCloud (edited 12-06-2000).]

Yosef_Malkovitch
12-06-2000, 01:09 PM
Dane, people can't help but be a little down after thier team loses. Think about how much emotion fans put into a game. You are cheering your heart out, hoping so hard that it hurts, because you want your team to win so bad. You are bound to have an emotional let down if they should lose. I get a little depressed when my team loses, but like you I don't let it run my life. But it is a very natural feeling and reaction.

BigChiefsFan
12-06-2000, 01:13 PM
58--
I have to agree and disagree with you.

I agree that the emphasis on winning is way out of control. I was a LL baseball ref for a total of three games. The kids had their coach pitch to them, and half of the kids didn't know what base to run towards. But the kids had fun . . . until the parents and coaches started to yell at them. I had some lady rip me for calling her son out (which he was). I told her "I'm sorry, but he missed the base and was tagged." She had to be held back by her husband who had this "Why did I marry this psycho b!tch?" look on his face. Very, very sad. It was my last game.

But while winning isn't everything, there is a reason they keep score: to see who was the best on that particular day. It's human nature to want to be the Alpha male/female in the pack. But instead of clubbing each other as we did pre-modern-man (except for in Oakland, where neanderthals still rule) we have sport to do it for us. Whether it is the native americans playing lacrosse with the heads of their enemies or current americans playing football with an inflated bladder (which they used to use), the goal is the same: to prove you and yours are the best.

I just think that comes before everything else, sometimes. And that is what is so sad.

MM
~~Believes in sportsmanship over victory.

[This message has been edited by Mark M (edited 12-06-2000).]

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 01:16 PM
Dane, I'm exaggerating only slightly...I put all my energy into the Chiefs games and when they lose I feel like ****...depressed?...yep..not suicidal of course, but let down....I'm getting better though...I've decided too, like you stated, that it is just a game and there is nothing I can do to affect the outcome...I don't play, I don't coach all I can do is cheer...

So for the past few weeks, I've resorted to not watching the game live....I record it...if they win...great...I watch...if they lose, I don't have to watch it and I didn't have to go through the agony of watching it live...in and of itself this is sick...but it's my way of dealing with this unhealthy obsession I have with the Chiefs...

With that said...I will always be a Chiefs fan and any loss or any win will have an effect on me...

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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 12-06-2000).]

Yosef_Malkovitch
12-06-2000, 01:20 PM
58, you don't watch it live? To me it doen't matter, it hurts watching my team lose live as it does watching it taped. I don't see the difference, but if it works for you...

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WILDCATS 29
corn balls 28

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 01:23 PM
raiderhader, if they lose then if I choose, I don't have to watch it at all...usually I do just so I can see what happened and so I can discuss things somewhat intelligently on this BB...

It was sadly funny the other night....I didn't watch any of the game live until the last 3 minutes...imagine how I felt seeing that last play live...if I'd have only have read about it, or heard about on the BB, I might not have felt so betrayed....


[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 12-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 12-06-2000).]

Yosef_Malkovitch
12-06-2000, 01:26 PM
So you find out who wins before you watch it? Why tape it? Sorry, this just isn't computing with my simple brain.

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WILDCATS 29
corn balls 28

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 01:29 PM
I know it sounds really stupid...and i really can't explain it...but if you saw me after a Chiefs loss...like last year after the Oakland game...maybe you'd understand...

You can't believe how much more relaxed you are watching a game when you know it's already a win...and if it's a loss...it's more relaxing too because you already know it's a loss and your not disappointed when you see some stupid play or call...

but just because I know the outcome doesn't mean I don't enjoy it as much...besides, I tape the game while I'm watching live too...this way I can go back and watch it again to determine what went right or wrong...


[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 12-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 12-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 12-06-2000).]

Yosef_Malkovitch
12-06-2000, 01:36 PM
I understand tapeing it while your watching it, but as for the rest, I'm just gonna have to take your word for it.

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WILDCATS 29
corn balls 28

Chieficus
12-06-2000, 01:43 PM
58forever:

"Desire to win," "compassion and tolerance" are not mutually exclusive terms. That you choose to make them so is your limitation, no one else's.

Your comments seem more akin to melancholy because your team is blown up with no chances left this season.

TEX
12-06-2000, 01:53 PM
RC,

excellent grammar...you are obviously an english professor, can I expect to hear/see some more of your insight on OPRAH, botm, soon?

Considering the closeness of the Raider/Broncos in the standings..i think you or any rational???pftt?? raider fan would be at least hoping the Chiefs pull it together for at least one more game.

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 02:03 PM
actually this topic was spawned in my mind because of all the things that have been said about wanting this person or that person off the team...I've been right in there calling for heads to roll myself...my point is that we are not as compassionate or tolerant of mistakes, especially in sports, because of the desire we have to win...at all cost...at the cost of human feelings if necessary....

am I despondent because my team is playing like crap and has no shot at the playoffs?...you bet...are winning and compassion and tolerance mutally exclusive terms?...no, of course not...but again my point is that when it comes to winning it really doesn't matter who gets stepped on...

But RC, thanks for the free psych evaluation...

Donkey Drew
12-06-2000, 03:16 PM
Joe, there should be no tolerance for poor play! Is there tolerance at your workplace (in which people are paid much less!) for poor work or poor work habits? I don't think so! These people are highly paid professionals, and if they don't perform, why should they be treated any differently than you or me? Or the CEO of Chrysler? The bottom line is that when these players and coaches don't perform, regardless of human feelings, they are to be fired. There's absolutely no reason to be bummed out.

[This message has been edited by DaneMcCloud (edited 12-06-2000).]

Moon§hiner
12-06-2000, 03:42 PM
What the **** is this, Jerry Maguire?

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 03:52 PM
damn, it was just a little typing/thinking out loud...you complete me...

Just saying that it seems that IN GENERAL compassion and tolerance has taken a back seat to winning and the almighty $$$

Yes...my boss shows much more compassion and tolerance...if not I'd have been fired months ago...afterall I spend half the day on this BB... http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

Coogs
12-06-2000, 03:59 PM
Joe - Stop. You had me at hello.

Coogs
12-06-2000, 04:01 PM
Although, I guess in this case it would be "Stop, you had me at ****ing A"

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 04:10 PM
Shannon, I was just thinking about you...wondering why I haven't seen your posts for a while, at least not many....

Now I am truly completed for the day... http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-06-2000, 04:11 PM
Bob Dole is having a hard time tolerating this introspective self-analysis.

(Bob Dole, apparently, lacks compassion.)

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 04:12 PM
What the f should I expect from a republican hung like a chigger?.... http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Coogs
12-06-2000, 04:14 PM
Joe - lol. I'm glad to make your day complete! I've been around and reading the board, I've just been busy for a change at work so I haven't had time to post.

Bob Dole - I could've told you that. http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 04:22 PM
Shannon, no excuse...work is irrelevant...

Coogs
12-06-2000, 04:24 PM
Joe - I know, I know...I need to get my priorities straight. ChiefsPlanet above all things and work is somewhere below that, right? http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Fat Homer
12-06-2000, 04:27 PM
Now you got it...I mean, I only have 50 million things to do before Friday and here I am on the BB...and the damn Chiefs aren't even winning...

Hey, guess what?...I played around all day and now it's time to go home...cool... :D

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 12-06-2000).]

Chieficus
12-06-2000, 05:28 PM
58forever:

So you’re speaking from a spectator’s vantage only and not as an actual competitor? I understand now.

Mercer:

kc winning vs donx is a nice hallucination. If they win it works out well for the Raiders. The unfortunate probability is your sucks greatly team will do a stupid dog trick like roll over and play dead then wedge their collective tail between legs and slink away.

What’s “OPRAH?”