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View Full Version : OOOPS....US fires on Italian hostage


Duck Dog
03-04-2005, 04:53 PM
I thought I'd pre-empt the moon bats.

Note to self. When approaching a US controlled road block while traveling in Iraq, obey all orders or else you will be shot on sight. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149470,00.html)

Duh. :rolleyes:

Donger
03-04-2005, 05:00 PM
I thought I'd pre-empt the moon bats.

Note to self. When approaching a US controlled road block while traveling in Iraq, obey all orders or else you will be shot on sight. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149470,00.html)

Duh. :rolleyes:

"The shooting reportedly occurred at a roadblock in western Baghdad. The car was traveling at high speeds and it refused to stop, which prompted American troops to open fire, military officials said."

That's one good way to get dead.

go bowe
03-04-2005, 05:11 PM
I thought I'd pre-empt the moon bats.

Note to self. When approaching a US controlled road block while traveling in Iraq, obey all orders or else you will be shot on sight. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149470,00.html)

Duh. :rolleyes:well, you fooled me...

i saw the thread title and thought i'd drop in and watch the train wreck...

i even considered chastizing poor little meme for using her damned OOPS crap in connection with a tragedy like this...

(like, what the hell was i thinking?)

BIG_DADDY
03-04-2005, 05:13 PM
"The shooting reportedly occurred at a roadblock in western Baghdad. The car was traveling at high speeds and it refused to stop, which prompted American troops to open fire, military officials said."

That's one good way to get dead.

The world didn't really need her anyway.

Ultra Peanut
03-04-2005, 05:20 PM
Italian drivers are retarded, or at least batshit crazy.

KCFalcon59
03-04-2005, 07:05 PM
Italian drivers are retarded, or at least batshit crazy.

We're crazy. Get the **** out of our way. We know where we're going and don't need anyone getting in our way. :thumb:

Chief Henry
03-05-2005, 08:43 AM
I watched TV News reports this morning on CNN,
MSNBC, NBC, CBS and FOX News about this Italian
reporter. Guess which one of these news outlets
reported that the car she was in was traveling at a HIGH rate of speed towards our soldiers check point? GUESS which network reported that she
was an ANTI WAR reporter who had written numerous anti war artciles.????

Cochise
03-05-2005, 09:25 AM
You're a soldier manning this roadblock. A car is approaching your roadblock at a high rate of speed and ignores hand signals, flashing of lights, and warning shots attempting to get the car to stop. You don't have any idea who's in the car or what its intention is.

I don't know about you guys, but I would have been turning that thing into swiss cheese too.

HC_Chief
03-05-2005, 09:37 AM
You're a soldier manning this roadblock. A car is approaching your roadblock at a high rate of speed and ignores hand signals, flashing of lights, and warning shots attempting to get the car to stop. You don't have any idea who's in the car or what its intention is.

I don't know about you guys, but I would have been turning that thing into swiss cheese too.

I'm surprised they weren't all killed. I know if I were manning that post, they would have been. You approach at high speed, disregard alerts to halt, in a war zone where terrorists are known to attack via car bomb? Your ass is dead... I'm throwing everything I've got at you.

Cochise
03-05-2005, 09:52 AM
I'm surprised they weren't all killed. I know if I were manning that post, they would have been. You approach at high speed, disregard alerts to halt, in a war zone where terrorists are known to attack via car bomb? Your ass is dead... I'm throwing everything I've got at you.

I don't know how they are trained to handle the situation, but perhaps the car decided to stop after they started taking fire. The Fox article indicated that a statment was made that the soldiers fired into the engine block.

I don't doubt that, but you have to think that (a) there would be some off-target shots that would have found their way through the windshield and that (b) besides trying to penetrate the block, taking out the driver would be first priority.

I'm inclined to think that of all the placed I would be aiming the driver would be the first.

trndobrd
03-05-2005, 10:01 AM
I don't know how they are trained to handle the situation, but perhaps the car decided to stop after they started taking fire. The Fox article indicated that a statment was made that the soldiers fired into the engine block.

I don't doubt that, but you have to think that (a) there would be some off-target shots that would have found their way through the windshield and that (b) besides trying to penetrate the block, taking out the driver would be first priority.

I'm inclined to think that of all the placed I would be aiming the driver would be the first.


Hitting and killing the driver will do very little to stop the vehicle. It it's already headed at you at a high rate of speed, the only thing that's will stop it is to catastophically disable the vehicle itself. The driver of a vehicle borne IED probably doesn't have any plans for later in the day anyway.

Cochise
03-05-2005, 10:07 AM
Hitting and killing the driver will do very little to stop the vehicle. It it's already headed at you at a high rate of speed, the only thing that's will stop it is to catastophically disable the vehicle itself. The driver of a vehicle borne IED probably doesn't have any plans for later in the day anyway.

Very true... I didn't know how they might be trained to handle it. The article on Fox said they were shooting into the block.

trndobrd
03-05-2005, 10:15 AM
Very true... I didn't know how they might be trained to handle it. The article on Fox said they were shooting into the block.


"For shooting into engine blocks of bomb filled vehicles trying to run checkpoints, I heartily endorse the M2 .50cal Machine Gun. The choice of discriminating check point and gate guards everywhere."

Iowanian
03-05-2005, 10:53 AM
People in that region have had plenty of time to figure out what NOT to do near US troops.

Failure to stop near a gate or a convoy is their poor choice.

Cochise
03-05-2005, 11:46 AM
"For shooting into engine blocks of bomb filled vehicles trying to run checkpoints, I heartily endorse the M2 .50cal Machine Gun. The choice of discriminating check point and gate guards everywhere."

Maximum effective range: 2000 meters with tripod mount
Cyclic rate of fire: 550 rounds per minute

Looks like that would do the job!

HC_Chief
03-05-2005, 12:13 PM
I guess it really depends on what you're equiped-with. If all you have are M-16s/M-4s & M-249 SAWs, shooting the engine block is about as effective as politely asking the driver to halt. Heck, even an M-60 won't do jack against most engine blocks... unless you put an entire belt into 'em... and then, maybe; but by that time the vehicle is already on top of you.

Now if you've got armor or a HMMV w/ a .50 cal...

Duck Dog
03-05-2005, 12:31 PM
Italian drivers are retarded, or at least batshit crazy.


I heard the same thing. I alway's thought the Turks were the worst drivers. But a guy told me in Turkey that the Italians were even worse.

Bowser
03-05-2005, 12:42 PM
I heard the same thing. I alway's thought the Turks were the worst drivers. But a guy told me in Turkey that the Italians were even worse.

Asian drivers are the worst. Hands down, no contest.

Although, I hear Phobia doesn't mind them so much.....

DanT
03-05-2005, 02:05 PM
Here's more on this story. The Itailian intelligence officer acted heroically.

The reporter denied that the vehicle she was in was speeding. It'd be interesting to know what the various parties involved in the shooting consider "speeding" to be.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=2&u=/ap/20050305/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage

Wounded Italian Journalist Returns Home

1 hour, 44 minutes ago

By MARIA SANMINIATELLI, Associated Press Writer

ROME - Draped in a blanket and hooked up to an intravenous drip, former hostage Giuliana Sgrena returned home from Iraq (news - web sites) on Saturday, hours after American troops fired on the car taking her to Baghdad's airport, wounding her. The Italian intelligence officer who negotiated her freedom was hit by the gunfire and died in her arms.


President Bush (news - web sites) promised a full investigation into the shooting at a U.S. checkpoint in Baghdad, which was likely to spur anti-war sentiment in Italy, where the public was widely opposed to the government's decision to maintain troops in Iraq.


Dozens of demonstrators outside the U.S. Embassy in Rome blocked traffic, and one banner read: "USA, war criminals." A few dozen communist demonstrators in Milan handed out leaflets reading, "Shame on you, Bush."


Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi greeted Sgrena after she was carried off her plane at Rome's Ciampino Airport following her release from a month of captivity. Surrounded by relatives and military police, Sgrena, a 56-year-old journalist with the newspaper Il Manifesto, was taken in an ambulance to a military clinic for an operation on her collarbone.


A blanket was wrapped around her shoulders, and she was hooked up to an intravenous drip.


Her brother, Ivan Sgrena, told reporters she was very happy to be back in Italy but was "very sorry and sad" about the death of intelligence officer Nicola Calipari, who Berlusconi said was killed when he threw himself over Sgrena to protect her from U.S. fire.


From the hospital, Giuliana Sgrena told Rai News 24 by telephone that "we thought the danger was over after my rescue."


"And instead, suddenly there was this shooting. We were hit by a spray of fire," she told the television network. "I was talking to Nicola ... when he leaned over me, probably to defend me, and then he slumped over. That was a truly terrible thing."


Pier Scolari, the journalist's boyfriend, said she told him: "The most difficult moment was when I saw the person who had saved me die in my arms," according to the ANSA news agency. Calipari was to be awarded a posthumous medal of valor, officials said.


Italy said two other agents were wounded in the attack, one seriously. State TV reported that one agent was on the plane with Sgrena, but the other was seriously wounded and still in Baghdad.


Gabriele Polo, her editor, said Berlusconi told him: "It was a terrible night, we will remember it for all our lives."


"She's been through a trial, but she's alive. Finally, we've gotten to see her," said her father, Franco.


Scolari said Sgrena was doing "relatively well."


She was abducted Feb. 4 by gunmen who blocked her car outside Baghdad University. Last month, she was shown in a video pleading for her life and demanding that all foreign troops — including Italian forces — leave Iraq.


Sgrena told colleagues from Il Manifesto, who met her plane, that her captors "never treated me badly," ANSA reported.


The shooting came as a blow to Berlusconi, who has kept 3,000 troops in Iraq despite widespread public opposition in Italy to the U.S.-led war. Sgrena's left-leaning newspaper vigorously opposed the conflict.


Italy's foreign minister said he hoped Calipari's death would not spark an anti-American backlash. "That would be the most underhanded way of marking the memory of this hero," Gianfranco Fini told Corriere della Sera newspaper.


Friday's shooting occurred shortly after Sgrena was released from a month in captivity. After the shooting, U.S. troops took Sgrena to an American military hospital in Iraq, where shrapnel was removed from her left shoulder.

The U.S. military said the car Sgrena was riding in after her release was speeding as it approached a coalition checkpoint in western Baghdad on its way to the airport. Soldiers shot into the engine block only after trying to warn the driver to stop by "hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and firing warning shots," the military said.

Sgrena, who was interviewed by prosecutors at the hospital in Rome, denied that the car was speeding, news reports said.

News of the shooting drew criticism Friday from Berlusconi's political foes, who were eager to attack the government for its staunch support of the war.

"Another victim of an absurd war," Alfonso Pecoraro Scanio, leader of the Green Party, told the Apcom news agency.

Berlusconi summoned the U.S. ambassador to Rome, Mel Sembler, who met with the premier for about an hour.

"The United States will continue to provide all necessary assistance," Sembler said in a statement, expressing condolences to Calipari's family and wishing the wounded a quick recovery. "And we are working with our Italian allies as we fully investigate the circumstances of this tragedy."

Bush called Berlusconi and expressed his regret in a five-minute conversation, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Friday night. Bush then assured Berlusconi the shooting would be "fully investigated," he said.

Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II sent two messages of condolences, one to Berlusconi and another to Calipari's family, the Vatican (news - web sites) said.

The pope said he was "saddened at the tragic death" of Calipari, and called him a "faithful and heroic servant of the state, who, in carrying out the delicate mission that had been given to him, didn't hesitate to sacrifice his life."

Duck Dog
03-05-2005, 02:12 PM
Asian drivers are the worst. Hands down, no contest.

Although, I hear Phobia doesn't mind them so much.....

Korean drivers were very tame compared to the Turks. Turkey doesn't have any traffic laws. No lights, no stop signs, no rights of way.

Then agian, it's the only Asian country I've driven in, so I can't speak for the others.

Duck Dog
03-05-2005, 02:25 PM
From the hospital, Giuliana Sgrena told Rai News 24 by telephone that "we thought the danger was over after my rescue."


"And instead, suddenly there was this shooting. We were hit by a spray of fire," she told the television network. "I was talking to Nicola ... when he leaned over me, probably to defend me, and then he slumped over. That was a truly terrible thing."

o'l boy was pretty damn brave and did his job well.



The U.S. military said the car Sgrena was riding in after her release was speeding as it approached a coalition checkpoint in western Baghdad on its way to the airport. Soldiers shot into the engine block only after trying to warn the driver to stop by "hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and firing warning shots," the military said.

Sgrena, who was interviewed by prosecutors at the hospital in Rome, denied that the car was speeding, news reports said.

Even if they weren't speeding, the driver clearly ignored all signs to stop or slow down. She's just been released from captivity, she's probably in some state of shock or euphoria, so would she even notice if the car she was in was driving too fast? I doubt it.

DanT
03-05-2005, 02:50 PM
Even if they weren't speeding, the driver clearly ignored all signs to stop or slow down. She's just been released from captivity, she's probably in some state of shock or euphoria, so would she even notice if the car she was in was driving too fast? I doubt it.


I agree that her captivity and release could affect her ability to perceive what was going on. I don't agree that "the driver clearly ignored all signs to stop or slow down", but only because it is not yet clear to me what happened before the shooting began. The shooters are claiming one thing and one of the persons who got shot, the freed hostage, is claiming another, according to the following excerpt from this news report:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7816391&src=rss/topNews

The U.S. military said its forces fired because the car was speeding toward their checkpoint.

But in comments reported by ANSA news agency, Sgrena told Rome investigating magistrates during a debriefing that the car was not going fast and there was no real checkpoint.

"The firing was not justified by the speed of our car," she reportedly said, adding it was traveling at a "regular" speed.

"It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol which shot as soon as it had lit us up with a spotlight. We had no idea where the shots were coming from."

DanT
03-05-2005, 02:55 PM
Here's more info on the heroic Italian intelligence agent. He was from Calabria, where the ancestors of a lot of Americans like me lived. God bless him and his family.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&ncid=732&e=1&u=/ap/20050305/ap_on_re_eu/italy_agent_profile

Dead Italian Agent Brokered Other Releases

38 minutes ago Europe - AP


By MARIA SANMINIATELLI, Associated Press Writer

ROME - Veteran Italian secret agent Nicola Calipari — who won the freedom of captive journalist Giuliana Sgrena — was a practiced hostage negotiator who had already helped bring home two Italians kidnapped in Iraq (news - web sites).



At least once before, Calipari reportedly had come close to negotiating Sgrena's release. He had gone to Baghdad once before, convinced he would leave with the 56-year-old writer for the left-wing newspaper Il Manifesto, but left empty-handed, according to the news agency ANSA.


It finally happened Friday, when Sgrena was handed over to Italian officials after a month of captivity in the hands of Iraqi insurgents. But the happy occasion quickly turned sour when the car taking Sgrena, Calipari and other agents to the Baghdad airport was fired upon at a U.S. checkpoint.


Calipari was killed as he threw his body across Sgrena, in what she said was an attempt to shield her from the bullets.


Italian President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi awarded Calipari with the gold medal of valor Saturday for his heroism. Across Italy, fans observed a moment of silence in tribute to the agent before the kickoff at soccer games.


"He was an extraordinary man. Getting to know him, I became certain that Giuliana would come home," Sgrena's boyfriend Pier Scolari told ANSA.


Sgrena was abducted Feb. 4 by gunmen who blocked her car outside Baghdad University.


News of Calipari's death brought grief to other former hostages and their relatives.


"Nicola Calipari was a beautiful person, a simple person. He was the person who freed me," Simona Torretta told ANSA on Friday as she left the home of Calipari, where she had gone to pay her respects and meet with his family.


The aid worker was held hostage in Iraq for three weeks with her colleague, Simona Pari, before Calipari negotiated her release Sept. 28.


"We are very sorry, we owe these people so much," said Pari's father, Luciano Pari. "He's a person who worked very well."


Minister of the interior Giuseppe Pisanu visited Calipari's home to express his condolences and described the agent as "the most true and human hero of this tormented story."


Calipari, 50, was married and had a 19-year-old daughter and a 13-year-old son. He originally was from the southern city of Reggio-Calabria in the toe of Italy across from Sicily, but had never worked there. He was a 20-year veteran of the police force, and before moving on to Italy's secret services he had headed the immigration office for Rome's police.

StcChief
03-05-2005, 10:23 PM
Just weeding out the gene pool.

Yet another Darwin award nomintee.

Duck Dog
03-06-2005, 10:10 AM
I don't believe one word from the Communist bitch. How could anybody? I believe she is using this as a tool to further her career as a communist journalist and to further her anti-US agenda.


Here's some interesting quotes from her;

"I remember only fire."

"She said the car was traveling at "regular speed."

Really? I thought she also remembered the car wasn't speeding. And speeding by who's definition?

"It was the happiest and also the most dangerous moment," Sgrena wrote. "If we had run into someone, meaning American troops, there would have been an exchange of fire, and my captors were ready and they would have responded."

"Suddenly, she said, she remembered her captors' warning her "to be careful because the Americans don't want you to return."

Really? And how would the captures have any type of intell on what US forces want? And why would we give a rats ass about some communist or what she thinks about the war?


"Giuliana Sgrena, who writes for the communist newspaper Il Manifesto"

Clearly she is on the side of her captures. And completely anti USA

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149535,00.html

Duck Dog
03-06-2005, 10:15 AM
Here's more info on the heroic Italian intelligence agent. He was from Calabria, where the ancestors of a lot of Americans like me lived. God bless him and his family.

Nicola Calipari would still be alive if the communist reporter had kept her nose from where it didn't belong.

It's like the rescue worker who dies saving some dumbshit who decided to drive through a low water crossing and was swept away.

It wasn't the floods fault the rescue worker was killed, it's the moron who put the rescue worker in that position in the first place that is to blame.

Boyceofsummer
03-06-2005, 11:54 AM
By I smell a rat! The excuses should be buried in Syria, right?

The driver was driving so fast he had time to shield the hostage. RIGHT!

Baby Lee
03-06-2005, 12:12 PM
By I smell a rat! The excuses should be buried in Syria, right?

The driver was driving so fast he had time to shield the hostage. RIGHT!
And boyce's reading skills are so poor that he failed to notice that there is no indication that the guy who shielded her was the driver. RIGHT!!!

I DID see a discrepancy between whether he 'heroically flung himself' onto her to shield her, and whether he 'leaned in as if to talk' to her and was struck.

I DID see that Italian officials have been purposely murky on the specifics.

BIG_DADDY
03-06-2005, 03:49 PM
By I smell a rat! !

Your so fu cking stupid dude your actually funny. Thanks for the laugh. :thumb:

DanT
03-06-2005, 04:12 PM
It's wise to doubt anything that a writer for a communist paper says.

Here's an update on the story. The driver of the car, an unidentified agent, claims that they were driving about 20-30 mph. Presumably, the agent works for the Italian Government, a Coalition member.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050306/wl_nm/iraq_italy_shooting_dc_11

Italy Doubts U.S. Version of Iraq Shooting

Sun Mar 6,12:15 PM ET World - Reuters


By Robin Pomeroy and Roberto Landucci

ROME (Reuters) - Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena, shot and wounded after being freed in Iraq (news - web sites), said Sunday U.S. forces may have deliberately targeted her because Washington opposed Italy's policy of dealing with kidnappers.


She offered no evidence for the claim that reflected growing anger in Italy over the conduct of the war, which has claimed more than 20 Italian lives, including secret agent Nicola Calipari who rescued her moments before being killed.


The shooting Friday evening has sparked tension with Italy's U.S. allies and put pressure on Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi to take a hard line with President Bush (news - web sites).


Speaking from the Rome hospital where she is being treated, Sgrena said the troops may have targeted her because Washington opposes Italy's reported readiness to pay ransoms to kidnappers.


"The United States doesn't approve of this (ransom) policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible," the veteran war reporter, 57, told Sky Italia TV.


In later comments to Reuters, Sgrena was less strident:


"You could characterise as an ambush what happens when you are showered with gunfire. If this happened because of a lack of information or deliberately, I don't know, but even if it was due to a lack of information it is unacceptable."


Bush promised a full probe into why troops shot at the Italian car nearing Baghdad airport Friday evening. Calipari died instantly of a single bullet to the head, doctors said.


The U.S. military says the car was speeding toward a checkpoint and ignored warning shots, an explanation rejected by Italian government ministers and the driver of the car.


A senior U.S. official, White House counselor Dan Bartlett, said the shooting was a "horrific accident."


"As you know, in a situation where there is a live combat zone, particularly this road to the airport ... people are making split-second decisions, and it's critically important that we get the facts before we make judgments," he told CNN.


Rome prosecutors have opened a second degree murder investigation into Calipari's death and Italy's justice minister has signed documents requesting information from witnesses.


PUNISHMENT, APOLOGY


According to Italy's leading daily Corriere della Sera, the driver, an unidentified Italian agent, said: "We were driving slowly, about 40-50 km/h (25-30 mph)."


In a harrowing account of the ordeal, Sgrena wrote in Sunday's issue of her communist newspaper Il Manifesto that Calipari saved her life by shielding her with his body.


"Nicola threw himself on to protect me and then suddenly I heard his last breath as he died on top of me," she wrote.


Although Italy has denied paying kidnappers in past hostage releases, Agriculture Minister Gianni Alemanno told the Corriere that "very probably" a large ransom had been paid in this case. Newspapers spoke of sums of up to 8 million euros ($10 million).





"We need to get the guilty punished and an apology from the Americans," Alemanno said. "We are trustworthy allies but we must not give the impression of being subordinates."

Parliamentary relations minister Carlo Giovanardi also said he did not believe the U.S. version of events.

Italy is one of Europe's closest U.S. allies and Washington is keen to show it is taking the matter seriously.

Bush telephoned Berlusconi Friday night. Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld called their Italian counterparts over the weekend.

LAST RESPECTS

Thousands of people queued up outside Rome's huge marble Victor Emmanuel monument to pay respects to Calipari where his body is lying in state before a funeral Monday.

The national outpouring of grief and anger has put pressure on Berlusconi, an ardent supporter of Bush and his war on terror, to get answers from Washington on what went wrong before he addresses parliament on the matter Wednesday.

"All 57 million Italians who were united in the anticipation of Giuliana Sgrena's liberation have the right to know what happened," said Romano Prodi, the former prime minister and leader of Italy's center-left opposition.

Berlusconi has sent some 3,000 Italian soldiers to Iraq, a decision opposed by a majority of Italians and the opposition which is seeking to unseat him at a general election next year and weaken him at regional polls next month. ($1=.7568 Euro)

Baby Lee
03-06-2005, 05:05 PM
Take one - "I was talking to Nicola ... when he leaned over me, probably to defend me."

Take two - "Nicola threw himself on to protect me."

Cochise
03-06-2005, 05:33 PM
There was just a quote from her on FNC saying it wasn't even a checkpoint, and that a tank just started firing at them.

Duck Dog
03-06-2005, 07:15 PM
It's wise to doubt anything that a writer for a communist paper says.

Here's an update on the story. The driver of the car, an unidentified agent, claims that they were driving about 20-30 mph. Presumably, the agent works for the Italian Government, a Coalition member.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050306/wl_nm/iraq_italy_shooting_dc_11

Italy Doubts U.S. Version of Iraq Shooting

Sun Mar 6,12:15 PM ET World - Reuters


By Robin Pomeroy and Roberto Landucci


"You could characterise as an ambush what happens when you are showered with gunfire. If this happened because of a lack of information or deliberately, I don't know, but even if it was due to a lack of information it is unacceptable."




First of all if it were an ambush, no one would have lived through it. As soon as the vehicle was disabled, the shooting stopped.

And Boyce, please read all the articles posted. No where does it say that Nicola was the driver. Ya dumbshit.

Taco John
03-07-2005, 01:37 AM
I can't figure out who is more stupid... The moon bats in this thread who are gleefully celebrating this event, or this woman:

Miss Sgrena, a reporter for the Communist daily Il Manifesto, charged yesterday that U.S. forces might have deliberately targeted her because Washington opposes Italy's policy of dealing with kidnappers.
"The United States doesn't approve of this [ransom] policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible," the veteran war reporter, 57, told Sky Italia TV.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050307-120131-5769r.htm



I think probably they are equally crazy, just on different ends of the spectrum.


Damned unfortunate turn of events.

Duck Dog
03-07-2005, 08:05 AM
I can't figure out who is more stupid... The moon bats in this thread who are gleefully celebrating this event, or this woman:




I think probably they are equally crazy, just on different ends of the spectrum.


Damned unfortunate turn of events.

So we're moon bats for talking about it? Got it.
:rolleyes:

InChiefsHell
03-07-2005, 08:31 AM
Just another crazy thing that happens in war. This beotch reminds me of Nick Berg's dad. Remember how he used the awful beheading of his son to further his anti-war, anti-Bush stand? This woman is simply an opportunistic Commie pinko beotch, who was probably not worth rescuing to begin with. I feel badly for the secret agent and his family.

Does she really expect us to believe that the US troops were ordered to ambush her because she was being released? Like we could get away with something like that. Freakin' psycho...

patteeu
03-07-2005, 08:31 AM
First of all if it were an ambush, no one would have lived through it.

This is the crucial flaw in the anti-US conspiracy theory IMO. Staging an ambush and leaving survivors just doesn't pass the smell test.

patteeu
03-07-2005, 08:33 AM
So we're moon bats for talking about it? Got it.
:rolleyes:

Unless you are celebrating this event, he didn't mean you.

jspchief
03-07-2005, 08:50 AM
I can't figure out who is more stupid... The moon bats in this thread who are gleefully celebrating this event, or this woman:


I agree (I just threw up in my mouth a little).

Some of the people in this thread are acting like it was the enemy that got killed or something.

This was an Ally. Further, it was an ally that had just been part of an operation that saved a hostage. I wonder how many people would be calling an American victim of freindly fire a dumbass. So far the details seem pretty sketchy, and maybe his actions ultimately led to his own death, but I still find it disgusting that some people are so quick to spit on the grave of a brother-in-arms.

Sometimes I'm amazed at the ignorance of people (although you'd think I'd be used to it).

Radar Chief
03-07-2005, 09:08 AM
I agree (I just threw up in my mouth a little).

Some of the people in this thread are acting like it was the enemy that got killed or something.

This was an Ally. Further, it was an ally that had just been part of an operation that saved a hostage. I wonder how many people would be calling an American victim of freindly fire a dumbass. So far the details seem pretty sketchy, and maybe his actions ultimately led to his own death, but I still find it disgusting that some people are so quick to spit on the grave of a brother-in-arms.

Sometimes I'm amazed at the ignorance of people (although you'd think I'd be used to it).

I think that if you’d actually read the responses here that you’d find no one is “spitting on the grave” of the Italian agent that gave his life for his mission but rather the reporter that got herself into the situation. And I’ll agree with them that she’s a stupid beotch.
Even worse, she’s now apparently trying to use the death of this same soldier to further her own agenda; any upchuck in your mouth over that?

Radar Chief
03-07-2005, 09:12 AM
First of all if it were an ambush, no one would have lived through it. As soon as the vehicle was disabled, the shooting stopped.

And Boyce, please read all the articles posted. No where does it say that Nicola was the driver. Ya dumbshit.

Exactly.

jspchief
03-07-2005, 09:20 AM
I think that if you’d actually read the responses here that you’d find no one is “spitting on the grave” of the Italian agent that gave his life for his mission but rather the reporter that got herself into the situation. And I’ll agree with them that she’s a stupid beotch.
Even worse, she’s now apparently trying to use the death of this same soldier to further her own agenda; any upchuck in your mouth over that?

Just weeding out the gene pool.

Yet another Darwin award nomintee.

That's spitting on his grave IMO. And a few of the other posts certainly lacked sympathy.

Friendly fire is an unfortunate part of war, but to insinuate the victim "had it coming" due to his poor choice of actions is not only devoid of compassion, it's an insult to what these men and women are doing over there.

None of us get our cars riddled with bullets when we make a poor decision while driving. Obviously, someone made a terrible mistake. Considering the discrepency in facts, I think it's a little early to be jumping to conclusions over who that was.

Loki
03-07-2005, 09:24 AM
You're a soldier manning this roadblock. A car is approaching your roadblock at a high rate of speed and ignores hand signals, flashing of lights, and warning shots attempting to get the car to stop. You don't have any idea who's in the car or what its intention is.

I don't know about you guys, but I would have been turning that thing into swiss cheese too.

agreed.

Ultra Peanut
03-07-2005, 09:25 AM
Things are apparently viewed differently from the Teej/jsp honeymoon hideaway. I don't see anyone "gleefully celebrating" this.

Radar Chief
03-07-2005, 09:34 AM
That's spitting on his grave IMO.


I assume nm_dbf meant the reporter, but we’ll have to wait for him to clarify.

And a few of the other posts certainly lacked sympathy.

Friendly fire is an unfortunate part of war, but to insinuate the victim "had it coming" due to his poor choice of actions is not only devoid of compassion, it's an insult to what these men and women are doing over there.

None of us get our cars riddled with bullets when we make a poor decision while driving. Obviously, someone made a terrible mistake. Considering the discrepency in facts, I think it's a little early to be jumping to conclusions over who that was.

Still no “upchuck” from this reporter's use of the same incident?

jspchief
03-07-2005, 09:34 AM
Things are apparently viewed differently from the Teej/jsp honeymoon hideaway. I don't see anyone "gleefully celebrating" this.

Celebrating probably isn't the word I would use. Callous and insensitive certainly work though.

Everyone sees it from the " If I was manning that roadblock" point of view. What about the "If I was driving away from securing the release of a hostage (who was originally captured by her vehicle being surrounded)" point of view.

The reports make it sound like it was at least partially dark if not completely dark. There's question as to whether it was an actual roadblock or just a patrol. I'm just saying the details are sketchy, with the only fact (so far) being that we shot one of our allies.

The tone of many of the posts in this thread certainly lack compassion for a fallen comrade.

Loki
03-07-2005, 09:34 AM
I guess it really depends on what you're equiped-with. If all you have are M-16s/M-4s & M-249 SAWs, shooting the engine block is about as effective as politely asking the driver to halt. Heck, even an M-60 won't do jack against most engine blocks... unless you put an entire belt into 'em... and then, maybe; but by that time the vehicle is already on top of you.

Now if you've got armor or a HMMV w/ a .50 cal...

don't forget the M136 (AT 4) anti-tank rocket...
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/at4.htm

those suckers FSU... big time.

Donger
03-07-2005, 09:37 AM
Celebrating probably isn't the word I would use. Callous and insensitive certainly work though.

Everyone sees it from the " If I was manning that roadblock" point of view. What about the "If I was driving away from securing the release of a hostage (who was originally captured by her vehicle being surrounded)" point of view.

The reports make it sound like it was at least partially dark if not completely dark. There's question as to whether it was an actual roadblock or just a patrol. I'm just saying the details are sketchy, with the only fact (so far) being that we shot one of our allies.

The tone of many of the posts in this thread certainly lack compassion for a fallen comrade.

From what I've read, the Italians didn't bother to mention to the Americans that this exchange was taking place or that they would be driving through this part of town with the freed hostage.

That, IMO, is quite simply not very bright.

Radar Chief
03-07-2005, 09:39 AM
Celebrating probably isn't the word I would use. Callous and insensitive certainly work though.

Everyone sees it from the " If I was manning that roadblock" point of view. What about the "If I was driving away from securing the release of a hostage (who was originally captured by her vehicle being surrounded)" point of view.

The reports make it sound like it was at least partially dark if not completely dark. There's question as to whether it was an actual roadblock or just a patrol. I'm just saying the details are sketchy, with the only fact (so far) being that we shot one of our allies.

The tone of many of the posts in this thread certainly lack compassion for a fallen comrade.

You put a loaded gun to your head and pull the trigger and I won’t have sympathy for the outcome of your actions either.

jspchief
03-07-2005, 09:41 AM
I assume nm_dbf meant the reporter, but we’ll have to wait for him to clarify.



Still no “upchuck” from this reporter's use of the same incident?

My "throw up" comment was in reference to agreeing with TJ. Not a response to posts in this thread.

Beyond that, I don't know much about this reporter. It's evident that she's anti-war. But I don't see her "using" this incident for anything at this point. What do expect her reaction to be? She was just rescued from peril, only to have her rescuer shot by allies. I'm not sure it's "spinning" for her to be upset about it.

Donger
03-07-2005, 09:47 AM
My "throw up" comment was in reference to agreeing with TJ. Not a response to posts in this thread.

Beyond that, I don't know much about this reporter. It's evident that she's anti-war. But I don't see her "using" this incident for anything at this point. What do expect her reaction to be? She was just rescued from peril, only to have her rescuer shot by allies. I'm not sure it's "spinning" for her to be upset about it.

Oh, I don't know. Considering that the "newspaper" she writes for is vehemently opposed to having Italian troops in Iraq...

Miss Sgrena, a reporter for the Communist daily Il Manifesto, charged yesterday that U.S. forces might have deliberately targeted her because Washington opposes Italy's policy of dealing with kidnappers.
"The United States doesn't approve of this [ransom] policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible," the veteran war reporter, 57, told Sky Italia TV.

Miss Sgrena, whose newspaper ardently opposes Italy's deployment of 3,000 troops in Iraq as part of the U.S.-led coalition, offered no direct evidence to support the charge and toned down the suggestion in a later interview with Reuters.

"If this happened because of a lack of information or deliberately, I don't know, but even if it was due to a lack of information, it is unacceptable," she said from her hospital room.

Radar Chief
03-07-2005, 09:50 AM
What do expect her reaction to be?

To stop when repeatedly warned by a bunch of guys wearing pickle suits and carry’n pea shooters and not make'n up shit about an “ambush” after failing to comply.

jspchief
03-07-2005, 09:51 AM
You put a loaded gun to your head and pull the trigger and I won’t have sympathy for the outcome of your actions either.

You're going on the assumption that they knew they were putting a loaded gun to their head. I don't think thats been made clear yet.
1. There's question whether it was even a roadblock. Some of the reports say it was just a patrol.
2. It was dark out.
3. There's question as to whether they were speeding.
4. there's question as to how much of an opportunity they were given to stop.

Both sides of this have an agenda. The reporter has an anti-war agenda, and the US soldiers have a "save our ass" agenda. I'd love to just blindly believe what our soldiers say, but considering that they may be trying to cover their own f*ck up, it's hard to do.

Donger certainly makes a lucid point. The Italians appear to have been doing all this without informing the US of their actions. That's dumb. But even so, I have to wonder if that was the dead agent's decision, or something that came from a superior.

jspchief
03-07-2005, 09:54 AM
Oh, I don't know. Considering that the "newspaper" she writes for is vehemently opposed to having Italian troops in Iraq...



And the US soldiers reporting this are the same soldiers that will have to face questions of why they shot allies...

Both sides reporting this could have an agenda molding their point of view.

bkkcoh
03-07-2005, 09:55 AM
<a href="http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20050307-120131-5769r" target="_blank">this puts a different light on it</a>


Italians kept U.S. forces in dark
By John Phillips
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published March 7, 2005

ROME -- Italian agents likely withheld information from U.S. counterparts about a cash-for-freedom deal with gunmen holding an Italian hostage for fear that Americans might block the trade, Italian news reports said yesterday.
The decision by operatives of Italy's SISMI military intelligence service to keep the CIA in the dark about the deal for the release of reporter Giuliana Sgrena, might have "short-circuited" communications with U.S. forces controlling the road from Baghdad to the city's airport, the newspaper La Stampa said.
That would help explain why American troops opened fire on a car whisking the released hostage to a waiting airplane, wounding Miss Sgrena and killing the Italian intelligence operative who had just negotiated her release.
Thousands of Italians yesterday congregated on the Altar to the Fatherland in Rome's vast Piazza Venezia to view the coffin of Nicola Calipari, the 52-year-old head of SISMI's international operations department.
Miss Sgrena, a reporter for the Communist daily Il Manifesto, charged yesterday that U.S. forces might have deliberately targeted her because Washington opposes Italy's policy of dealing with kidnappers.
"The United States doesn't approve of this [ransom] policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible," the veteran war reporter, 57, told Sky Italia TV.
Miss Sgrena, whose newspaper ardently opposes Italy's deployment of 3,000 troops in Iraq as part of the U.S.-led coalition, offered no direct evidence to support the charge and toned down the suggestion in a later interview with Reuters.
"If this happened because of a lack of information or deliberately, I don't know, but even if it was due to a lack of information, it is unacceptable," she said from her hospital room.
There were conflicting reports on the extent to which Italian authorities had informed their American counterparts about the operation, in which a reported $6 million was paid for the journalist's release.
Mr. Calipari and another senior SISMI operative concluded the deal for her release on Friday in Abu Dhabi and then flew to Baghdad aboard a secret service Falcon executive jet to collect her, La Stampa said.
At the airport, they met an Italian military liaison office,r and U.S. military authorities issued them passes allowing them to travel around Baghdad carrying weapons, the newspaper said citing SISMI sources.
The sources said the Italians explained "the terms of the mission" and "the exact nature of the operation" to U.S. officials at the airport. Sources also said an American officer was instructed to wait at the airport for Mr. Calipari and the freed hostage.
But La Stampa also quoted diplomatic sources saying vital information was withheld from the Americans.
"Italian intelligence decided to free Sgrena paying a sum to the kidnappers without informing American colleagues in Iraq who, if they had known about this, would have had to oppose it, to have impeded the operation," sources said.
"If this was the case, it could explain why American intelligence had not informed the American military commands about the operation and thus the patrol did not expect the car with the Italians."
Whatever the truth, the affair aroused public opinion and put pressure on Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi to take a tough line with President Bush.
Mr. Berlusconi won plaudits last year when Mr. Calipari obtained the release of two young volunteers kidnapped in Iraq known as the two Simonas, also through payment of a multimillion dollar ransom.
That money reputedly came not from the state, but from the personal fortune of Mr. Berlusconi, a media magnate who is Italy's richest man.
But the death of Mr. Calipari, while using his body to shield Miss Sgrena from U.S. fire, has sparked deep anger and could cost the prime minister in regional elections at the end of this month.
In the past, the Italian left detested the security services, notorious for skulduggery and links to the neo-fascist right, but since the fall of the Berlin Wall, the left has idolized men like Mr. Calipari, who spent most of his career as a police officer in his native Calabria fighting organized crime. He transferred to the military intelligence service just two years ago.
Several government ministers joined the driver of the car yesterday in rejecting the U.S. explanation that the Americans opened fire only after the driver ignored signals to slow down as he approached a checkpoint.
Mr. Bush has promised a full probe into why troops shot at the Italian car nearing Baghdad airport Friday evening.


I wonder how this will change peoples mind on the situation!

mlyonsd
03-07-2005, 09:58 AM
this puts a different light on it (http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20050307-120131-5769r)




I wonder how this will change peoples mind on the situation!

If this is true what a waste since it didn't need to happen.

Radar Chief
03-07-2005, 10:00 AM
You're going on the assumption that they knew they were putting a loaded gun to their head. I don't think thats been made clear yet.
1. There's question whether it was even a roadblock. Some of the reports say it was just a patrol.
2. It was dark out.
3. There's question as to whether they were speeding.
4. there's question as to how much of an opportunity they were given to stop.

Both sides of this have an agenda. The reporter has an anti-war agenda, and the US soldiers have a "save our ass" agenda. I'd love to just blindly believe what our soldiers say, but considering that they may be trying to cover their own f*ck up, it's hard to do.

Donger certainly makes a lucid point. The Italians appear to have been doing all this without informing the US of their actions. That's dumb. But even so, I have to wonder if that was the dead agent's decision, or something that came from a superior.

When driving towards an American roadblock at approximately 30 MPH refusing to stop, they certainly should’ve known that the guns pointed at them were loaded.

Donger
03-07-2005, 10:00 AM
And the US soldiers reporting this are the same soldiers that will have to face questions of why they shot allies...

Both sides reporting this could have an agenda molding their point of view.

I don't disagree.

However, at this point and without any other data, I will take the words of US soldiers over an anti-US communist reporter. Also, take into account that this female directly implied that our troops shot at her because we don't agree with the Italian policy of paying off hostage takers. I find that amusing considering our troops were not apparently not informed that this exchange was taking place.

I'm not quite sure how this female reached that conclusion.

Radar Chief
03-07-2005, 10:02 AM
I don't disagree.

However, at this point and without any other data, I will take the words of US soldiers over an anti-US communist reporter. Also, take into account that this female directly implied that our troops shot at her because we don't agree with the Italian policy of paying off hostage takers. I find that amusing considering our troops were not apparently not informed that this exchange was taking place.

I'm not quite sure how this female reached that conclusion.

Oh, I am. ;)

MOhillbilly
03-07-2005, 10:03 AM
stupid commie had it coming.

jspchief
03-07-2005, 10:04 AM
I don't disagree.

However, at this point and without any other data, I will take the words of US soldiers over an anti-US communist reporter. Also, take into account that this female directly implied that our troops shot at her because we don't agree with the Italian policy of paying off hostage takers. I find that amusing considering our troops were not apparently not informed that this exchange was taking place.

I'm not quite sure how this female reached that conclusion.

No doubt that comment makes her out to be a lunatic.

It will be interesting to hear what the other two survivors in the car have to say.

My point has simply been that there seems to be a lot of "he got what he had coming" type of sentiment in this thread, and that the current evidence is a bit shaky to be making that conclusion.

Radar Chief
03-07-2005, 10:08 AM
My point has simply been that there seems to be a lot of "he got what he had coming" type of sentiment in this thread, and that the current evidence is a bit shaky to be making that conclusion.

SHE not he. He was unfortunate and I feel sorry for his family.
She’s the moron that got herself kidnapped in the first place.

bkkcoh
03-07-2005, 10:10 AM
If this is true what a waste since it didn't need to happen.


But, the question is, will the fault be placed at the feet of the Italians or stay with the Americans. :hmmm:

jspchief
03-07-2005, 10:14 AM
But, the question is, will the fault be placed at the feet of the Italians or stay with the Americans. :hmmm:

My guess is it will be a little of both. It will alwys be a he said/she said thing, unless the two surviving agents come out with a story that coincides with the Americans.

IMO, a large part of the blame has to go to the Italian secrest service agency, for keeping the main occupying force (The US military) in the dark about the operation.

Ultra Peanut
03-07-2005, 11:00 AM
This was a cluster**** of tragic proportions, flat out.

Iowanian
03-07-2005, 11:03 AM
This broad should be tickled those Terrorists didn't saw her head off with a rusty spoon with a live internet feed.

Its unfortunate..........that they were shot.

I prefer the soldiers on the ground Do that, instead of let a car bomber close enough to kill a pile of them.

Duck Dog
03-07-2005, 11:42 AM
That's spitting on his grave IMO. And a few of the other posts certainly lacked sympathy.

Friendly fire is an unfortunate part of war, but to insinuate the victim "had it coming" due to his poor choice of actions is not only devoid of compassion, it's an insult to what these men and women are doing over there.

None of us get our cars riddled with bullets when we make a poor decision while driving. Obviously, someone made a terrible mistake. Considering the discrepency in facts, I think it's a little early to be jumping to conclusions over who that was.


Who said Nicola had it comming? So far it apperas he wasn't the driver. The driver is to blame for not heading the warnings to stop.

It's been stated by many that Nicola has earned the title hero, if he did in fact shield her.

And furthermore, she is not an Alley.

But the most important part of this whole situation is the possibility that someone and some people have just given the terrorists a ton of cash. Someone may have bought her freedom. That is the worse part of this whole ordeal.

Duck Dog
03-07-2005, 11:44 AM
You're going on the assumption that they knew they were putting a loaded gun to their head. I don't think thats been made clear yet.
1. There's question whether it was even a roadblock. Some of the reports say it was just a patrol.
2. It was dark out.
3. There's question as to whether they were speeding.
4. there's question as to how much of an opportunity they were given to stop.

Both sides of this have an agenda. The reporter has an anti-war agenda, and the US soldiers have a "save our ass" agenda. I'd love to just blindly believe what our soldiers say, but considering that they may be trying to cover their own f*ck up, it's hard to do.

Donger certainly makes a lucid point. The Italians appear to have been doing all this without informing the US of their actions. That's dumb. But even so, I have to wonder if that was the dead agent's decision, or something that came from a superior.


Thos soldiers have a 'save their life mission', which is more important. I will lway's believe them. Anyone even remotely taking her word over the troops can go anal probe themselves with a pop can.

This is rediculous that we even have to discuss this.

Duck Dog
03-07-2005, 11:46 AM
I don't disagree.

However, at this point and without any other data, I will take the words of US soldiers over an anti-US communist reporter. Also, take into account that this female directly implied that our troops shot at her because we don't agree with the Italian policy of paying off hostage takers. I find that amusing considering our troops were not apparently not informed that this exchange was taking place.

I'm not quite sure how this female reached that conclusion.

no kidding. how far fetched of a story is that?

ummm....if we knew an exchange was taking place we would have killed the terrorist.

Not one word from her adds up to anything believable.

Duck Dog
03-07-2005, 11:49 AM
<a href="http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20050307-120131-5769r" target="_blank">this puts a different light on it</a>




I wonder how this will change peoples mind on the situation!

6 f'n million dollars in the terrorists pockets for an anti US commie?

Geezus.
:rolleyes:

Duck Dog
03-07-2005, 11:50 AM
No doubt that comment makes her out to be a lunatic.

It will be interesting to hear what the other two survivors in the car have to say.

My point has simply been that there seems to be a lot of "he got what he had coming" type of sentiment in this thread, and that the current evidence is a bit shaky to be making that conclusion.


Where are you reading these statements?

HC_Chief
03-07-2005, 11:58 AM
6 f'n million dollars in the terrorists pockets for an anti US commie?

Geezus.
:rolleyes:

It appears the Italians as big a group of pussies as the Spanish.
Must be a 'european thing'.

Cochise
03-07-2005, 12:19 PM
Same on us, for spending so much effort debating some fascist reporter's bodyguard being killed, while most of our own men in uniform don't get more than a mention on local news and the privlege of being a statistic traded for political capital.

Taco John
03-07-2005, 05:55 PM
If they showed our mens coffins on the news you'd be the one complaining the loudest.

KCWolfman
03-08-2005, 06:45 AM
American soldier

or

Anti-US Communist Reporter with an anti-US agenda?



Until some real evidence comes forward, paint me skeptical with the woman's story.




Of course, some people will try to make hay over the story believing her over our own troops.

patteeu
03-08-2005, 07:43 AM
If they showed our mens coffins on the news you'd be the one complaining the loudest.

Do you think the government should manage their image and shape their message in any way or do you think they should unilaterally disarm in the PR war that is always inevitable with the opposition?

I think it can be taken too far, and I don't know exactly where the line should be drawn, but IMO, limiting the exposure of returning coffins doesn't cross it.

If you think it does cross the line, how do you feel about the way those coffin pictures are/will be used by critics of the war?

Lzen
03-08-2005, 08:34 AM
Maximum effective range: 2000 meters with tripod mount
Cyclic rate of fire: 550 rounds per minute

Looks like that would do the job!


Holy crap!!! 2000 meters? That's 1.24 miles! :eek:

Lzen
03-08-2005, 08:45 AM
This is the crucial flaw in the anti-US conspiracy theory IMO. Staging an ambush and leaving survivors just doesn't pass the smell test.

Very good point. It would be much easier to defend your story if there were no opposing stories. This woman is an idiot and so is anyone who believes her.

Lzen
03-08-2005, 09:05 AM
jspchief,
I understand trying to be open minded. It's usually best to be unbiased when there's a he said/she said type of incident. But sometimes a potato is just a potato. It's a known fact that this woman is an anti-US commie journalist. I have to agree with Donger, Duck Dog, KCWolfman, and whoever else said that they would believe US soldiers over this woman. Color me biased but that's the way I view this until they can show me solid evidence (real facts, not some media propaganda) contrary.

BTW, you mentioned that she said it wasn't even a checkpoint. She claims it was a patrol. My question is that if it wasn't a checkpoint, why did they have spotlight? Do they take a freakin' spotlight on patrol? That doesn't sound right to me.

memyselfI
03-08-2005, 01:47 PM
Looks like the shooting of the journalist is not the only controversy this particular unit is embroiled in. :hmmm:

US soldiers accused of sex assaults

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1432691,00.html

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Tuesday March 8, 2005
The Guardian

Soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Brigade - the same military unit whose troops fired on the car carrying the freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena - were under investigation last year for raping Iraqi women, US army documents reveal.
Four soldiers were alleged to have raped the two women while on guard duty in a Baghdad shopping precinct. A US army investigator interviewed several soldiers from the military unit, the 1-15th battalion of the 3rd Infantry Brigade - but did not locate or interview the Iraqi women involved - before shutting down the inquiry for lack of evidence.

Transcripts of the investigation, obtained by the Guardian from the American Civil Liberties Union, show only the most cursory attempts by the investigator to establish whether the women were raped.

The soldiers claimed the women were prostitutes, or denied any knowledge of any one in their unit having sex while deployed in Iraq. The statements went largely unchallenged. "I know the women were Iraqi. I however don't know if they were raped, or were prostitutes, or just wanted sex," one soldier told investigators.

Jameel Jaffar, an attorney for the ACLU, which has led a long legal struggle for the Pentagon to release documents of its investigations, argues that the failure to conduct a thorough investigation on such serious charges as rape was part of a disturbing pattern. "There are always questions in these files about whether the investigator was sufficiently aggressive in pursuing leads and tracking down evidence," he said.

The allegations of rape were contained in 1,200 pages of documents released yesterday by the ACLU. Together, the documents cover investigations into 13 cases of suspected abuse. However, no action was taken against any soldier as a result.

The documents also provide further evidence that US troops have destroyed evidence of abuse, in order to avoid a repetition of last year's Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal.

In the latest such episode, an officer is believed to have destroyed a home-made DVD showing members of the Florida National Guard abusing Iraqi detainees, and manipulating the hand of a dead Iraqi to wave at the camera. Another scene shows a soldier hitting a bound prisoner on the head with a rifle butt.

At least one of the soldiers - a sergeant - was identified from the DVD. However, no criminal charges were brought in that investigation after military lawyers concluded that the DVD showed "inappropriate rather than criminal behaviour".

The DVD, which the soldiers called Ramadi Madness, was discovered by a civilian public affairs employee at the unit's headquarters in West Palm Beach, Florida. The DVD was later destroyed by an officer who had learned the case was under investigation.

Mr Jaffer said: "We have to start to ask the question of whether there is a whole layer of abuse out there that we are not seeing because the evidence of abuse has been covered up."

The investigation into the allegations of rape was launched last April after a report appeared in Playboy magazine alleging that the unit had engaged in various war crimes from rape to hogtieing and beating up an Iraqi detainee. By July 26, 2004, the inquiry was over. "Investigation established there was insufficient evidence to prove or disprove the allegations," the report concluded.

Duck Dog
03-08-2005, 02:14 PM
Looks like the shooting of the journalist is not the only controversy this particular unit is embroiled in. :hmmm:

US soldiers accused of sex assaults

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1432691,00.html

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Tuesday March 8, 2005
The Guardian

Soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Brigade - the same military unit whose troops fired on the car carrying the freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena - were under investigation last year for raping Iraqi women, US army documents reveal.
Four soldiers were alleged to have raped the two women while on guard duty in a Baghdad shopping precinct. A US army investigator interviewed several soldiers from the military unit, the 1-15th battalion of the 3rd Infantry Brigade - but did not locate or interview the Iraqi women involved - before shutting down the inquiry for lack of evidence.



You do realize how large a Brigade is don't you? Of course you do, you're a military buff.

You also realize the inquiry was shut down for lack of evidence, don't you? Of course you do.

But why would anything stop you from being negative toward out troops?

memyselfI
03-08-2005, 02:52 PM
You do realize how large a Brigade is don't you? Of course you do, you're a military buff.

You also realize the inquiry was shut down for lack of evidence, don't you? Of course you do.

But why would anything stop you from being negative toward out troops?




but did not locate or interview the Iraqi women involved - before shutting down the inquiry for lack of evidence.

:hmmm: Real thorough and impartial investigation there, eh? :shake:

Duck Dog
03-08-2005, 02:53 PM
but did not locate or interview the Iraqi women involved - before shutting down the inquiry for lack of evidence.

:hmmm: Real thorough investigation there, eh?

Why don't you just get to your point. If you have one.

KCWolfman
03-08-2005, 03:17 PM
Looks like the shooting of the journalist is not the only controversy this particular unit is embroiled in. :hmmm:

US soldiers accused of sex assaults
.

Sad equivocation from the leftist extremists once more.


Hey, they were in the same unit, therefore, they must be guilty.

Denise, Rader lives in the same state you do; therefore, you must be involved in torturing or killing yourself, right?

memyselfI
03-08-2005, 04:36 PM
Why don't you just get to your point. If you have one.

Do you find an 'investigation' which does not even speak to the alleged victims to be a sufficient enough 'investigation' to close? Especially due to 'lack of evidence'???? :hmmm:

memyselfI
03-08-2005, 04:38 PM
Sad equivocation from the leftist extremists once more.


Hey, they were in the same unit, therefore, they must be guilty.

Denise, Rader lives in the same state you do; therefore, you must be involved in torturing or killing yourself, right?

Nope, no one is guilty of anything...

one investigation was completed and dropped due to lack of evidence thus there was no charges filed. Hard to be guility when not charged, right?

And of course, the Italians and the US are seeing the same evidence and merely have different perceptions...
:hmmm:

Duck Dog
03-08-2005, 04:46 PM
Do you find an 'investigation' which does not even speak to the alleged victims to be a sufficient enough 'investigation' to close? Especially due to 'lack of evidence'???? :hmmm:

Why don't you start a post explaining your hatred of America and the men who protect her.

Go ahead, lay it out for all to see. It will feel good to finally let it all go once and for all.

memyselfI
03-08-2005, 04:50 PM
Why don't you start a post explaining your hatred of America and the men who protect her.

Go ahead, lay it out for all to see. It will feel good to finally let it all go once and for all.

Why don't you address the issues and points being raised instead of diverting and distracting from them? :hmmm:

Duck Dog
03-08-2005, 04:54 PM
Why don't you address the issues and points being raised instead of diverting and distracting from them? :hmmm:

I have. There aren't anymore points to raise.

Are there any victims? No.

End of argument.

Your turn.

Why do you post only anti-US and negative US service member stories?

Why don't you dig through Google and find something positive to say about them and/or your country?

I dare you.

memyselfI
03-08-2005, 05:04 PM
I have. There aren't anymore points to raise.

Are there any victims? No.

End of argument.

Your turn.

Why do you post only anti-US and negative US service member stories?

Why don't you dig through Google and find something positive to say about them and/or your country?

I dare you.

So, the absence of charges and prosecution means there were no victims?

Does that apply in all wars and to all troops or just ours? Meaning, did the lack of prosecuting all Nazis who committed crimes mean that those crimes that they committed never happened and thus there were no victims simply because there were no charges filed or prosecution against them? :hmmm:

From where I sit, this is not turning anything into an anti-US story. The article is relevent to this dead Italian story because it appears to be the same unit. And when they previously were in a situation under scrutiny and doing an investigation they did not appear to do it thoroughly.

Thus, the question becomes since they dropped the ball on an investigation before how can they be trusted to investigate itself again?

Baby Lee
03-08-2005, 05:05 PM
If we're all gonna engage in conspiracy theories, how about a full investigation into whether or not the former hostage actually killed her bodyguard in cold blood in a grand plan to embarass the US troops?

Calling all moonbats, gimme your best.

memyselfI
03-08-2005, 05:07 PM
If we're all gonna engage in conspiracy theories, how about a full investigation into whether or not the former hostage actually killed her bodyguard in cold blood in a grand plan to embarass the US troops?

Calling all moonbats, gimme your best.

I'm not supporting this journalists version of the events. I am alittle more than baffled why the Italian FM would be though seeing that Italy seems to be an ally in the COW and thus would have no reason to try to embarrass the US.

KCWolfman
03-08-2005, 05:29 PM
Nope, no one is guilty of anything...

one investigation was completed and dropped due to lack of evidence thus there was no charges filed. Hard to be guility when not charged, right?

And of course, the Italians and the US are seeing the same evidence and merely have different perceptions...
:hmmm:
You mean Denise and the US. After all, if one story doesn't relate to the other, there was no reason to post it other than to incite animosity.

KCWolfman
03-08-2005, 05:30 PM
Why don't you address the issues and points being raised instead of diverting and distracting from them? :hmmm:
You mean like posting stories unrelated to the topic?

Baby Lee
03-08-2005, 05:56 PM
I'm not supporting this journalists version of the events. I am alittle more than baffled why the Italian FM would be though seeing that Italy seems to be an ally in the COW and thus would have no reason to try to embarrass the US.
pandering al collegio elettorale

Lefty's Alter Ego
03-08-2005, 09:05 PM
Why would anyone give their own life for this communist?

Duck Dog
03-09-2005, 08:05 AM
So, the absence of charges and prosecution means there were no victims?

Does that apply in all wars and to all troops or just ours? Meaning, did the lack of prosecuting all Nazis who committed crimes mean that those crimes that they committed never happened and thus there were no victims simply because there were no charges filed or prosecution against them? :hmmm:

From where I sit, this is not turning anything into an anti-US story. The article is relevent to this dead Italian story because it appears to be the same unit. And when they previously were in a situation under scrutiny and doing an investigation they did not appear to do it thoroughly.

Thus, the question becomes since they dropped the ball on an investigation before how can they be trusted to investigate itself again?


I'm going to put things in perspective for you, so you can move along to your next US/Soldier bashing thread.

Same unit= A brigade. Can be close 5-6K soldiers. Trying to create a pattern using; "it's the same unit, therfore they must have ahve raped and murdered" is assnine. Was everyone in Park City, KS a serial killer?

Dropped the ball on the investigation= How do you know they dropped the ball? Because they couldn't find any victims? That's their fault the women didn't come forward? You want a couple of GI's thrown in Leavenworth without evidence?

I knew you'd dodge my challenge.

Radar Chief
03-09-2005, 09:19 AM
Looks like the shooting of the journalist is not the only controversy this particular unit is embroiled in. :hmmm:

US soldiers accused of sex assaults

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1432691,00.html

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Tuesday March 8, 2005
The Guardian

Soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Brigade - the same military unit whose troops fired on the car carrying the freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena - were under investigation last year for raping Iraqi women, US army documents reveal.


Brigade? Shouldn’t that be “3rd Infantry Division”? 3rd ID, “Rock of the Marne”? The same division Patton lead towards the end of WWII?

I’m pretty sure I’m right on this one, since I was stationed along side the bulk of the 3rd ID in Wurzburg Germany.

Just so you know, Denise, a division will include several brigades. So now we’re talking about 10’s of thousands of soldiers being “in the same unit”.

HC_Chief
03-09-2005, 10:40 AM
Brigade? Shouldn’t that be “3rd Infantry Division”? 3rd ID, “Rock of the Marne”? The same division Patton lead towards the end of WWII?

What do you expect, the quote came from the leftist UK fishwrap The Guardian? Like facts actually matter.... it's all about getting your propoganda, err point of view, errr news - yeah, that's it! <i>news</i> out there!

again, for the record, Duhnise is a moron.

memyselfI
03-09-2005, 11:31 AM
Brigade? Shouldn’t that be “3rd Infantry Division”? 3rd ID, “Rock of the Marne”? The same division Patton lead towards the end of WWII?

I’m pretty sure I’m right on this one, since I was stationed along side the bulk of the 3rd ID in Wurzburg Germany.

Just so you know, Denise, a division will include several brigades. So now we’re talking about 10’s of thousands of soldiers being “in the same unit”.

Sure there are. And to say this unit has had some issues and some controversy is not to impugn them all. It is to say that somewhere along the line some of those in command are either not doing their job and thus have committed actions that have people alleging wrong doing. Again, it is not the entire unit but the leadership of the particular unit that needs to be under scrutiny for the alleged wrong doings here.

HC_Chief
03-09-2005, 11:32 AM
moron

Duck Dog
03-09-2005, 11:43 AM
So, the absence of charges and prosecution means there were no victims?

Does that apply in all wars and to all troops or just ours? Meaning, did the lack of prosecuting all Nazis who committed crimes mean that those crimes that they committed never happened and thus there were no victims simply because there were no charges filed or prosecution against them? :hmmm:

From where I sit, this is not turning anything into an anti-US story. The article is relevent to this dead Italian story because it appears to be the same unit. And when they previously were in a situation under scrutiny and doing an investigation they did not appear to do it thoroughly.

Thus, the question becomes since they dropped the ball on an investigation before how can they be trusted to investigate itself again?

The 3rd Inf Div has 7 brigades, over 50 bns, each bat. has at least 4 company's.

We're talking 15-20K troops.


Now explain again, how these stories are relevent?

Duck Dog
03-09-2005, 11:50 AM
Sure there are. And to say this unit has had some issues and some controversy is not to impugn them all. It is to say that somewhere along the line some of those in command are either not doing their job and thus have committed actions that have people alleging wrong doing. Again, it is not the entire unit but the leadership of the particular unit that needs to be under scrutiny for the alleged wrong doings here.

You do not have the slightest idea of what you're bitching about.

Do you believe that with every crime a soldier commits, that who ever was in charge of that soldier should be punished too?

How do you know it's the same people who were in charge between the two incidents?

If you can prove who it was that was in charge of the alleged rape investigation and prove that person was also in charge of the road block, and prove to that there is more to the rape story, I'll concede. Until then, keep your tin foil hat on.

Still not taking me up on the dare? I didn't think you would.

Iowanian
03-09-2005, 11:51 AM
It sounds like this whole situation would have been better if someone had fired 6" to the right.


Don't waste your time trying to inform Dense about Military Structure. She hates them all anyway.

My brother is 2BDE of the 3rd ID.............but I wouldn't have as much of a clue as what Dense read on DU about those child murdering bastards.

He's in Bagdad, has been attacked by insurgents, drives the Roads daily, has seen IEDs, in an area where the VBIED(car bombs) aren't uncommon.....Cars try to get in the way of convoys for RPG attacks, to blow them up.

pardon me if I personally don't give a shit if some Soldiers smoked those people for driving at them, on a road known for these attacks, at night, after curfew, and didn't heed warnings. By the Time they were fired on, they would have had more than one warning...............and it takes about 10 seconds to go from "Alive and Fine" to Dead.

Fug that broad, I hope her Communist ass gets GanGreen.


Even "IF" a 3rd ID soldier sexually assaulted someone, which is wrong and wouldn't go unpunished.............is that really worse than what the "people' they're there to fight are doing?

Just today, 41 were found dead....more than 15 with their heads cut off, including women and 2 children. Peaceful Muslims Our Boyscouts are supposed to be fighting with.

memyselfI
03-09-2005, 02:34 PM
You do not have the slightest idea of what you're bitching about.

Do you believe that with every crime a soldier commits, that who ever was in charge of that soldier should be punished too?

How do you know it's the same people who were in charge between the two incidents?

If you can prove who it was that was in charge of the alleged rape investigation and prove that person was also in charge of the road block, and prove to that there is more to the rape story, I'll concede. Until then, keep your tin foil hat on.

Still not taking me up on the dare? I didn't think you would.

What was your dare? Something positive about the troops? Do you not recall me posting something about their work and the Tsunami? I did that without your juvenile dare.

Garcia Bronco
03-09-2005, 02:40 PM
Everything I've read tells that these people were doing something they shouldn't have and put themselves in a position to get killed. A tragedy for sure...but they didn't really leave our military much choice.

Iowanian
03-09-2005, 03:18 PM
...never mind that this is the 2nd Tour of the 3rd ID, and they'll be there ANOTHER 18 months in all likelyhood.

I could give a damn about that Italian Communist. I wonder what she'd think if her govt hadn't payed a ransom, thereby encouraging MORE abductions, and her head had been removed with a rusty spoon?

Duck Dog
03-09-2005, 04:09 PM
What was your dare? Something positive about the troops? Do you not recall me posting something about their work and the Tsunami? I did that without your juvenile dare.

Your assignment is to post one positive article about the troops in Iraq.

I have no doubts you will get an F for failure to complete your homework.

Duck Dog
03-09-2005, 04:11 PM
Everything I've read tells that these people were doing something they shouldn't have and put themselves in a position to get killed. A tragedy for sure...but they didn't really leave our military much choice.


Makes you wonder why Ilsamistme doesn't weep for the Bulgarian troop killed by friendly fire. Must be that he wasn't communist or anti American. Or could be that he was an evil coalition soldier who had it comming.

Which is it, Islamistme?

Chief Henry
03-09-2005, 04:39 PM
Makes you wonder why Ilsamistme doesn't weep for the Bulgarian troop killed by friendly fire. Must be that he wasn't communist or anti American. Or could be that he was an evil coalition soldier who had it comming.

Which is it, Islamistme?




Bump......don't expect her to answer you DD

Straight, No Chaser
03-09-2005, 11:28 PM
Italian drivers are retarded, or at least batshit crazy.

Ever driven in a car in Phoenix, Mesa, or Scottsdale?

My favorite quote is from Achille Occhetto, an opposition senator, who told the Senate chamber immediately after Mr. Berlusconi, one of President Bush's few firm friends in Europe:

"The American soldiers shoot anything that moves."


--->

memyselfI
03-10-2005, 07:52 AM
Makes you wonder why Ilsamistme doesn't weep for the Bulgarian troop killed by friendly fire. Must be that he wasn't communist or anti American. Or could be that he was an evil coalition soldier who had it comming.

Which is it, Islamistme?

I just read about it last evening...

guess there are more than one trigger happy folks on the ground there, eh? :shake:

You would think with a dwindling coalition that EXTRA EFFORT would be made to not pizz off our remaining allies of the COW. Guess not.

Bootlegged
03-10-2005, 08:04 AM
I just read about it last evening...

guess there are more than one trigger happy folks on the ground there, eh? :shake:

You would think with a dwindling coalition that EXTRA EFFORT would be made to not pizz off our remaining allies of the COW. Guess not.

YOUR allies? Syria, Iran, etc? Your allies are certainly not the same as OUR allies. Asshairedgunt.

Duck Dog
03-10-2005, 08:20 AM
I just read about it last evening...

guess there are more than one trigger happy folks on the ground there, eh? :shake:

You would think with a dwindling coalition that EXTRA EFFORT would be made to not pizz off our remaining allies of the COW. Guess not.


Wow, you are a fugging idiot.

It's war. They are in a war zone. Friendly fire is an awful reality of it.

Too bad, US troop hating scum like you can't get that through your egg shell skulls.

One day, people like you use the deaths of 1500 troops to further your cause. Then when you find out they shoot people to stay alive, you turn and all of the sudden they are trigger happy.




So where is this positive article about our troops in Iraq?

You can't post one can you?

Duck Dog
03-10-2005, 08:28 AM
I just read about it last evening...

guess there are more than one trigger happy folks on the ground there, eh? :shake:

You would think with a dwindling coalition that EXTRA EFFORT would be made to not pizz off our remaining allies of the COW. Guess not.


What no tears for the dead soldier?

Why is that?

memyselfI
03-10-2005, 11:03 AM
Wow, you are a fugging idiot.

It's war. They are in a war zone. Friendly fire is an awful reality of it.

Too bad, US troop hating scum like you can't get that through your egg shell skulls.

One day, people like you use the deaths of 1500 troops to further your cause. Then when you find out they shoot people to stay alive, you turn and all of the sudden they are trigger happy.




So where is this positive article about our troops in Iraq?

You can't post one can you?

Again, for the reading impaired, a few weeks ago I posted an article giving kudos to the military for their job in the Tsunami region. It was not done to appease some ridiculous dare or challenge.

If you can't find it then perhaps you can ask the mods to turn on the search. :rolleyes:

Lefty's Alter Ego
03-10-2005, 09:46 PM
US soldiers are republicans.
Is it any wonder liberals hate them so much?

The dirty fascist whore deserved to have her head cut off slowly.

Like all the rest of the stupid commie liberals.

I say bring on the camps!
We have more than enough millitary bases to lock them up.

Iowanian
03-10-2005, 10:19 PM
I'd guess some village is missing an idiot tonight?

KCWolfman
03-10-2005, 10:25 PM
US soldiers are republicans.
Is it any wonder liberals hate them so much?

The dirty fascist whore deserved to have her head cut off slowly.

Like all the rest of the stupid commie liberals.

I say bring on the camps!
We have more than enough millitary bases to lock them up.
Is this Lefty trying to make some sad sort of point?

You really need a different name if you plan on doing more subterfuge, genius.

Lefty's Alter Ego
03-10-2005, 10:45 PM
Is this Lefty trying to make some sad sort of point?

You really need a different name if you plan on doing more subterfuge, genius.
Who's "Lefty"?
And what do you mean by "subterfuge"?

Did you miss the comments others have made about the stupid b!tch?
Or are you just uncomfortable with the truth?

I could give a damn about that Italian Communist. I wonder what she'd think if her govt hadn't payed a ransom, thereby encouraging MORE abductions, and her head had been removed with a rusty spoon?

WTF are you commenting on what I said?
You got some love for Eye_talian spies?

Maybe you are a closet lefty.
I say get back in!

KCWolfman
03-10-2005, 11:00 PM
Who's "Lefty"?
And what do you mean by "subterfuge"?

Did you miss the comments others have made about the stupid b!tch?
Or are you just uncomfortable with the truth?



WTF are you commenting on what I said?
You got some love for Eye_talian spies?

Maybe you are a closet lefty.
I say get back in!
Be reasonable or prepared to be the second banned idiot this evening, Lefty.

Warrior5
03-11-2005, 04:53 PM
At first I thought you were Ernie Conwell, but even he never posted stuff this stupid.

If your a liberal posing as a RWNJ, you're waaay overdoing it, and sound like an idiot.

If you're a conservative, you're out of control and sound like an idiot.

Either way, you sound like an idiot.

Clean up your act.

Loki
03-14-2005, 10:05 AM
What was your dare? Something positive about the troops? Do you not recall me posting something about their work and the Tsunami? I did that without your juvenile dare.

yet (as everyone stated before) that is an instance where our troops
are doing something that they aren't necessarily TRAINED for. you're
applauding them for that particular humanitarian mission ONLY. you
have failed to see that the fighting in afghanistan and iraq posesses
humanitarian missions as well that our troops have accomplished with
just as much professionalism and caring as they have with the tsunami.

you dwell on anything negative or controversial with our troops. that
really SUCKS. :(

Iowanian
03-14-2005, 11:06 AM
Who's "Lefty"?

WTF are you commenting on what I said?
You got some love for Eye_talian spies?

Maybe you are a closet lefty.
I say get back in!

I know you aren't dipshit enough to have just said that.

What part of "I could give a shit less about this communist biatch" would lead you to believe that I implied anything remotely close to supporting an Italian spy?

I'm not exactly a far right wing Repub, even though Dense lumps me in.....but I don't think I've ever been called a Lib by Anyone with a straight face.

Feel Free to Fornicate yourself with some auto-analingus.

Duck Dog
03-14-2005, 12:06 PM
[/B]

Again, for the reading impaired, a few weeks ago I posted an article giving kudos to the military for their job in the Tsunami region. It was not done to appease some ridiculous dare or challenge.

If you can't find it then perhaps you can ask the mods to turn on the search. :rolleyes:


That's ironic.

I said the troops in Iraq. How nice to skip over that part as if I wouldn't catch on.

JohninGpt
03-15-2005, 04:09 PM
This whole thing is a shame. I just spent a couple of years in Italy, and I really enjoyed the Italian people.
But, sh!t happens. I've been in Iraq for the past six months, and whoever used the words "trigger happy" on this thread, well no sh!t. You don't have a lot of time to make the decision to fire or not, you have to protect yourself. Everyone who comes over here, military, contractor, reporter, or whatever else runs a risk, especially approching a roadblock at night. There is a curfew, and if you are on the road after that, you'd better have a military escort with a radio.
John...in Ramadi

Duck Dog
03-15-2005, 04:13 PM
This whole thing is a shame. I just spent a couple of years in Italy, and I really enjoyed the Italian people.
But, sh!t happens. I've been in Iraq for the past six months, and whoever used the words "trigger happy" on this thread, well no sh!t. You don't have a lot of time to make the decision to fire or not, you have to protect yourself. Everyone who comes over here, military, contractor, reporter, or whatever else runs a risk, especially approching a roadblock at night. There is a curfew, and if you are on the road after that, you'd better have a military escort with a radio.
John...in Ramadi


Atta boy John. God speed.

The folks here who refer to you all as trigger happy are just liberal moon bats who have never done sh!t to help their country.

Never mind them.

craneref
03-15-2005, 09:58 PM
Heard something interesting today, that this Communist Reporter, was kidnapped with her blessing to help secure money for the insurgents. Now there is a Communist French reporter that has been kidnapped and is asking for money. What made me consider this as a possibility is that the Italian Reporter was on tape crying for her life saying that they were going to cut off her head, then after the terrorists get their undisclosed amount of cash and she is released, she turns around and said they treated really well. Last time I checked, threateneing to cut of somebodies head is not being treated well. Well maybe to the Libs that is good treatment.

memyselfI
03-15-2005, 10:42 PM
That's ironic.

I said the troops in Iraq. How nice to skip over that part as if I wouldn't catch on.

Here ya go. They appeared to do something that will make the Italian people happy...at least speeding up the return of their troops home.

I'm sure this won't count but as Martha says 'it's a good thing' for the Italians.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=2&u=/nm/20050316/wl_nm/italy_iraq_troops_dc

Italy Says Will Start Withdrawing Troops from Iraq

2 hours, 1 minute ago World - Reuters

By Francesca Piscioneri

ROME (Reuters) - Leading U.S. ally Italy said on Tuesday it would start withdrawing its soldiers from Iraq (news - web sites) in September, in a fresh blow to President Bush (news - web sites)'s shrinking coalition.


Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, one of Bush's most vocal supporters, said he was in talks with British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) about a total exit strategy from Iraq, adding people in both countries wanted their troops to return home.


"We will begin to reduce our contingent even before the end of the year, starting in September, in agreement with our allies," said Berlusconi, who faces an election next year and went against public opinion to deploy troops in Iraq.

Asked on RAI state television when a total withdrawal would take place, Berlusconi said: "It will depend on the capacity of the Iraqi government to provide adequate security."

Despite strong opposition at home, Berlusconi sent some 3,000 troops to Iraq -- the fourth largest foreign contingent after U.S., British and South Korean forces.


But pressure has mounted on him to withdraw the troops since intelligence agent Nicola Calipari was killed earlier this month by U.S. soldiers shortly after rescuing an Italian hostage.


The incident has strained Italy's relations with the United States and Bush has promised an investigation.


"SERIOUS MISTAKE"


"(Bush) knows that he can't let down a loyal ally," said Berlusconi, adding that the killing was a "serious mistake."


"I've spoken at length about (a total exit strategy) personally with Tony Blair, saying that we should make a precise exit strategy because the public opinion of our countries expects this information," said Berlusconi.


No immediate comment was available from Britain, which has the second largest number of troops in U.S.-led forces in Iraq.


Berlusconi had stood by Bush as other U.S. allies announced plans to pull out of Iraq. Spain withdrew last year and more recently the Netherlands, Poland and Ukraine have said they propose bringing their forces home this year.


Earlier on Tuesday, Bulgaria's president said his country should withdraw its 450 troops from Iraq by the end of this year after a Bulgarian soldier was accidentally killed by U.S. forces. A final decision is expected by the end of the month.


The White House said Berlusconi's move was not linked to Calipari's death.


"I'm not sure I'd make a connection there," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan, adding the United States applauded Italy's contribution in Iraq.


"If you look at what (Berlusconi) said .... (the withdrawal) will be based on the ability and capability of Iraqi forces and the Iraqi government to be able to assume more responsibility," said McClellan.


Just hours before Berlusconi announced his decision, an Italian solider died in Iraq during a target-shooting exercise. Twenty-one Italian soldiers have died in Iraq.

Center-left opposition parties have used Iraq as a rallying cry against Berlusconi.

But government coalition parties overcame objections and voted in parliament on Tuesday to extend funding for the Iraq mission for another six months. (Additional reporting by Phil Stewart in Rome and Tabassum Zakaria in Washington)