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View Full Version : Rolle's Demand: $15 mil SB


CHIEFSFAN_NY
03-04-2005, 08:46 PM
Titans cornerback Samari Rolle has visited the Kansas City Chiefs and reportedly wants a $15 million signing bonus

http://browns.scout.com/2/357249.html

HC_Chief
03-04-2005, 08:47 PM
The market for cornerbacks is extremely high after Ken Lucas received a $13 million bonus as part of a six-year, $36 million contract with the Carolina Panthers.

What?! When did Carolina sign Lucas?!?!

Kclee
03-04-2005, 08:48 PM
Seems about right.

Stinger
03-04-2005, 08:48 PM
The market for cornerbacks is extremely high after Ken Lucas received a $13 million bonus as part of a six-year, $36 million contract with the Carolina Panthers.

What?! When did Carolina sign Lucas?!?!

Yesterday afternoon I believe

MGRS13
03-04-2005, 08:48 PM
Well, no way Carl does that. Oh well who are projected to be top ten picks in the 2006 draft?

ChiefGator
03-04-2005, 08:48 PM
That's the going rate.. no big surprise there.

Bwana
03-04-2005, 08:49 PM
That's nice, does his fuggen neck turn? Do it! Next...........

HC_Chief
03-04-2005, 08:49 PM
Yesterday afternoon I believe

Well shit, that sucks. I was hoping we'd somehow manage to sign him as well (I know I know, wishful thinking)

HolmeZz
03-04-2005, 08:49 PM
That's what he was figured to be asking for. Not much of a surprise.

the Talking Can
03-04-2005, 08:50 PM
well, so much for signing him...where's Chad Scott?

MGRS13
03-04-2005, 08:51 PM
Well shit, that sucks. I was hoping we'd somehow manage to sign him as well (I know I know, wishful thinking)
Yea I was kind of hoping we would sign SOMEONE, I know I know wishful thinking.

Stinger
03-04-2005, 08:52 PM
The market for cornerbacks is extremely high after Ken Lucas received a $13 million bonus as part of a six-year, $36 million contract with the Carolina Panthers. The Dallas Cowboys paid $10 million in a signing bonus to former Browns corner Anthony Henry.

To me it seems would rather have Henry at $10 mill, Lucas at 13 Mill, or Rolle at $15 mill to me it seem like a no brainer since those two started the going rate.

TEX
03-04-2005, 08:53 PM
I doubt we'll pay him 15 Million to sign, but since Lucas got 13 Million, I bet he would sign for 14 Million. :hmmm:

Manila-Chief
03-04-2005, 08:54 PM
Seems about right.

I fully agree with you!!!! Give him $15 mil ... then vets minimum for this year and spread it out over 5 or 7 years....


Carl .... just get him signed!!!!!

htismaqe
03-04-2005, 08:59 PM
That's probably why Hartwell hasn't signed yet. They've gotta finish the Rolle deal first because the SB is outrageous.

the Talking Can
03-04-2005, 09:02 PM
for $15 mill he better play MLB too

Kclee
03-04-2005, 09:02 PM
That's probably why Hartwell hasn't signed yet. They've gotta finish the Rolle deal first because the SB is outrageous.



You mean it isn't because the FO is incompetent?

Stinger
03-04-2005, 09:05 PM
That's probably why Hartwell hasn't signed yet. They've gotta finish the Rolle deal first because the SB is outrageous.

Please don't post logic right now there is blood in the water and sharks are swimming.

By the way could you have a bad feeling about these two signings sort of a reverse mojo. :)

Mr. Laz
03-04-2005, 09:06 PM
I doubt we'll pay him 15 Million to sign, but since Lucas got 13 Million, I bet he would sign for 14 Million. :hmmm:

ya... that's part of the reason why you act fast and SET the market instead of following it.

CHIEFSFAN_NY
03-04-2005, 09:15 PM
Also, Baltimore is contemplating an offer to cornerback Samari Rolle (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/4305), the market's top-rated player at his position. But it is not known whether Baltimore will be able to afford the estimated $12 million to $14 million signing bonus that Rolle is said to be seeking.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/football/nfl/03/04/browns.baxter/

TEX
03-04-2005, 09:16 PM
ya... that's part of the reason why you act fast and SET the market instead of following it.

Yep, I agree. But it is way too much to ask for Carl to do. It seems that every year we WAIT and see and then lose out. Unless of course he rushes out to "set the market" with his own CRAPPY defensive players. :shake:

The EXACT thing happened with Tait in that the CHIEFS could have locked him up in his last year, but instead decided to WAIT and see.

petegz28
03-04-2005, 09:18 PM
Bartee & Warfield will be the starters next season

TEX
03-04-2005, 09:19 PM
Also, Baltimore is contemplating an offer to cornerback Samari Rolle (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/4305), the market's top-rated player at his position. But it is not known whether Baltimore will be able to afford the estimated $12 million to $14 million signing bonus that Rolle is said to be seeking.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/football/nfl/03/04/browns.baxter/

Now that they lost Baxter, it would not surprise me if they swooped in and signed Rolle. Then we'll have to settle for 2nd tier players and have to listen to total BS about how we needed to sighn MORE players rather than a solid one or two. Shoot D.V. has already started. :shake:

morphius
03-04-2005, 09:19 PM
I would be surprised if the Lucas deal was 13 up front, it seems that they have started reporting the future roster bonus's in that number. Similar to the contract Indy gave to Harrison that is actually something like a 2 year 7 million contract instead of the $100 million contract everyone heard.

Sooner of later the players are going to learn that you can make a lot more money by actually keeping yourself priced well for the team. But being everyone feels they have to brag about their SB, thats not going to happen anytime soon.

philfree
03-04-2005, 09:21 PM
I thought I read that Lucas' bonus was two tiered which he ain't getting the whole $13mil up front.



PhilFree :arrow:

tommykat
03-04-2005, 09:21 PM
Well Chit...............sign TK for that.......beat the chit out of me.....ROFL NOT

The Bad Guy
03-04-2005, 09:22 PM
The Chiefs need to get this done tonigh if Baltimore is lurking.

Enough of the nonsense. The NFL stands for Not for Long and free agents don't last long.

If the Chiefs keep twiddling their thumbs, he's going to be gone.

tommykat
03-04-2005, 09:24 PM
The Chiefs need to get this done tonigh if Baltimore is lurking.

Enough of the nonsense. The NFL stands for Not for Long and free agents don't last long.

If the Chiefs keep twiddling their thumbs, he's going to be gone.

remember we have " Twiddle dee and Twiddle dumb "!

Bwana
03-04-2005, 09:24 PM
Well Chit...............sign TK for that.......beat the chit out of me.....ROFL NOT
Does your neck turn?

Dayze
03-04-2005, 09:25 PM
That's nice, does his fuggen neck turn? Do it! Next...........

ROFL

When Rolle comes to camp, he'll be teaching our other DB's the art of turnning one's head - as the young CB's look on intently; much the same way cavemen witnessing Fire for the first time.

petegz28
03-04-2005, 09:25 PM
The Chiefs need to get this done tonigh if Baltimore is lurking.

Enough of the nonsense. The NFL stands for Not for Long and free agents don't last long.

If the Chiefs keep twiddling their thumbs, he's going to be gone.


Well you know as well as I do that this whole thing has been smoke and mirrors. We will be lucky to get Bell signed. Then we will pick up some 3rd string CB that get's cut after June 1.

TEX
03-04-2005, 09:28 PM
I would be surprised if the Lucas deal was 13 up front, it seems that they have started reporting the future roster bonus's in that number. Similar to the contract Indy gave to Harrison that is actually something like a 2 year 7 million contract instead of the $100 million contract everyone heard.

Sooner of later the players are going to learn that you can make a lot more money by actually keeping yourself priced well for the team. But being everyone feels they have to brag about their SB, thats not going to happen anytime soon.

Makes sense. Isn't that how we structured Priest's deal?

htismaqe
03-04-2005, 09:29 PM
Well you know as well as I do that this whole thing has been smoke and mirrors. We will be lucky to get Bell signed. Then we will pick up some 3rd string CB that get's cut after June 1.

You have no way of knowing that.

tommykat
03-04-2005, 09:29 PM
Does your neck turn?

Depends...;)

Dayze
03-04-2005, 09:30 PM
Depends...;)

Yeah..that will cost the Chiefs an extra $2M for the neck turn.

Stinger
03-04-2005, 09:30 PM
Well you know as well as I do that this whole thing has been smoke and mirrors. We will be lucky to get Bell signed. Then we will pick up some 3rd string CB that get's cut after June 1.

But he will be a well paid 3rd string back

Bwana
03-04-2005, 09:30 PM
Depends...;)

Well if it does TK, I think you could beat out our boy Bartee. :)

morphius
03-04-2005, 09:32 PM
Makes sense. Isn't that how we structured Priest's deal?
I didn't think so, but anything is possible.

Surely we could pull of a decent signging bonus and 3 years before the second tier one falls in for some of these guys.

Oh well, if things don't improve I may be driving to Omaha to see Chiefs games, 'cause these games are not going to sell out.

tommykat
03-04-2005, 09:32 PM
Well if it does TK, I think you could beat out our boy Bartee. :)

Funny you asked that as I am watching the Excorist 2......egadddds

petegz28
03-04-2005, 09:33 PM
You have no way of knowing that.


You are right. But up to this point I think I have been more right than wrong. But hopefully in the end I am wrong.

But CeePee is doing exactly as predicted. Which is nothing.

tommykat
03-04-2005, 09:35 PM
You are right. But up to this point I think I have been more right than wrong. But hopefully in the end I am wrong.

But CeePee is doing exactly as predicted. Which is nothing.

Which is nothing NEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Bwana
03-04-2005, 09:35 PM
Funny you asked that as I am watching the Excorist 2......egadddds

Really? :evil:

BigRedChief
03-04-2005, 09:36 PM
If Lucas is worth 13 mil then Rolle is worth 15 mil. Break open the checkbook Lamar.

Kclee
03-04-2005, 09:37 PM
The Chiefs need to get this done tonigh if Baltimore is lurking.


Yeah, and I'm guessing that he would rather play on that D than ours. Plus, it's not going to help if Mason gives him a call and says come on over. If Rolle does leave, do you think we go for Smoot next or Hartwell?
I don't know if they really want a CB first before LB or they just really wanted Rolle.

tommykat
03-04-2005, 09:37 PM
Really? :evil:

Yes I am on AMC chnnel.........

Oregon chief
03-04-2005, 09:38 PM
arizona just signed two other players, hopefully they wont have enough for hartwell.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2005, 09:42 PM
With our luck, I wouldn't doubt to see the Ravens swoop in and sign him.

The Bad Guy
03-04-2005, 09:43 PM
arizona just signed two other players, hopefully they wont have enough for hartwell.

They have 13 million dollars of space. I don't think Oliver Ross and whoever else they signed will take up 1/4th of that.

tk13
03-04-2005, 09:51 PM
I haven't been on here at all this afternoon but it sure seems like a lot of people are freaking out over stuff. I don't know, I fully expected Rolle to want this much, I'm not the least bit surprised. I actually thought Ty Law would lead the market in the 17-20 million range... and he probably would've had he been healthy, and everybody else falls into place behind that. That's the NFL nowadays.

Mile High Mania
03-04-2005, 09:53 PM
The dude from Cleveland that signed with Dallas got a $10M bonus, right? Lucas was near $13M... right? $15M+ isn't shocking at all.

Judge Smails
03-04-2005, 09:53 PM
Give it to him or we'll all be bitchin about the same thing this time next year.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2005, 09:54 PM
I haven't been on here at all this afternoon but it sure seems like a lot of people are freaking out over stuff. I don't know, I fully expected Rolle to want this much, I'm not the least bit surprised. I actually thought Ty Law would lead the market in the 17-20 million range... and he probably would've had he been healthy, and everybody else falls into place behind that. That's the NFL nowadays.

It's probably a blessing in disguise that Law isn't healthy or else he would've set the market so high that we would still probably get a top-CB, but that would be all we could afford. I'm glad he's not healthy.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2005, 09:56 PM
The dude from Cleveland that signed with Dallas got a $10M bonus, right? Lucas was near $13M... right? $15M+ isn't shocking at all.

$15 million signing bonus isn't that high at all this day in age in the NFL. Soon it'll be a bargain, if not already.

Someone just needs to tell the Chiefs this.

keg in kc
03-04-2005, 10:00 PM
$15 million signing bonus isn't that high at all this day in age in the NFL.That's not exactly true this year, because the collective bargaining agreement expires not too far down the road. Teams are limited to 5-year deals, so a $15 million bonus is more now than it was a couple of years ago, when you could pro-rate it out over 7 seasons. It may not seem like much, but you're talking about nearly 900K a year against the cap.

tk13
03-04-2005, 10:04 PM
$15 million signing bonus isn't that high at all this day in age in the NFL. Soon it'll be a bargain, if not already.

Someone just needs to tell the Chiefs this.
But it's really hard to slam that up against the cap because you can only pro-rate it over 5 years. When you've only got 5 million in cap space like we do, 15 million in signing bonus is a mess to deal with.... I'm not sure because I haven't read all the other threads, but I get the feeling everybody thinks the Chiefs are being cheap, when in reality we don't have that much cap room.... a 15 million dollar bonus is going to count 3 million a year against the cap PLUS base salary. That's gonna be 3.5+ million dollars right there. We supposedly have 4.5 to 5 million in cap space.... there you go right there. Sign Rolle, blammo, that's it... we're down to a million, maybe 1.5 in cap space with rookies and other FA's to sign. I'm not sure exactly what everybody was expecting...

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2005, 10:07 PM
That's not exactly true this year, because the collective bargaining agreement expires not too far down the road. Teams are limited to 5-year deals, so a $15 million bonus is more now than it was a couple of years ago, when you could pro-rate it out over 7 seasons. It may not seem like much, but you're talking about nearly 900K a year against the cap.

I'm fine with sinking in 06 and 07 for a run this year while the offense still has some steam left. Carl will be gone, DV will be gone, this team will be rebuilding. Let's do it this year.

Chiefnj
03-04-2005, 10:08 PM
There are so many erroneous reports floating around about all the free agents. I think Rolle is looking for more than 15 mil.

KCChiefsMan
03-04-2005, 10:09 PM
pay it Carl!!! get him in!

keg in kc
03-04-2005, 10:10 PM
Well, if you really want to get technical tk, what we'd do if we're limited (as we seem to be) is tier Rolle's bonus, so, say 8-10 counts this year, then the rest is added to next year's tier. That would lower the cap number now, but raise it significantly down the road. So instead of 3 million annually, you'd have 1.5-2 in bonus against the cap this year, then 3.25-3.4 from '06-'09. And I'm sure they could be even more creative with it.

I'm not saying it's not doable or that we shouldn't do it, just that we need to realize that contracts aren't going to be quite as long-term now as usual.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2005, 10:11 PM
There are so many erroneous reports floating around about all the free agents. I think Rolle is looking for more than 15 mil.

I don't think so. If so, we'd be looking in another direction.

tk13
03-04-2005, 10:17 PM
Well, if you really want to get technical tk, what we'd do if we're limited (as we seem to be) is tier Rolle's bonus, so, say 8-10 counts this year, then the rest is added to next year's tier. That would lower the cap number now, but raise it significantly down the road. So instead of 3 million annually, you'd have 1.5-2 in bonus against the cap this year, then 3.25-3.4 from '06-'09. And I'm sure they could be even more creative with it.

I'm not saying it's not doable or that we shouldn't do it, just that we need to realize that contracts aren't going to be quite as long-term now as usual.
Good point. And that is if the player wants to agree to that. That's where we really get in a bind competing with the Dan Snyder's..... the Chiefs make 24 million in profit, the Redskins make 70.... we're sitting here talking about having to give 15-20 million to someone up front and tiering bonuses to players while other teams can say "Here it is, all up front." That doesn't work in our favor at all.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2005, 10:21 PM
Good point. And that is if the player wants to agree to that. That's where we really get in a bind competing with the Dan Snyder's..... the Chiefs make 24 million in profit, the Redskins make 70.... we're sitting here talking about having to give 15-20 million to someone up front and tiering bonuses to players while other teams can say "Here it is, all up front." That doesn't work in our favor at all.

Why couldn't Lamar spend his other money out of his 2.6 billion net worth besides that 24 mil? I bet he'd be bankrupt if he did that. :rolleyes: :p

milkman
03-04-2005, 10:25 PM
OK, I keep comong back to this.

The Pats had a top 10 D, and won the SB with a ferocious front 7 and a less than spectacular secondary, and you guys want to sink the cap money into a corner?

Sign Hartwell, and an OLB, then get a 2nd tier corner.

Hell, I'll even give you the #1 pick for corner, but I want LBers, dammit.

Kclee
03-04-2005, 10:27 PM
OK, I keep comong back to this.

The Pats had a top 10 D, and won the SB with a ferocious front 7 and a less than spectacular secondary, and you guys want to sink the cap money into a corner?

Sign Hartwell, and an OLB, then get a 2nd tier corner.

Hell, I'll even give you the #1 pick for corner, but I want LBers, dammit.



Hartwell and Dyson. Then trade up for DJ.

The Bad Guy
03-04-2005, 10:33 PM
OK, I keep comong back to this.

The Pats had a top 10 D, and won the SB with a ferocious front 7 and a less than spectacular secondary, and you guys want to sink the cap money into a corner?

Sign Hartwell, and an OLB, then get a 2nd tier corner.

Hell, I'll even give you the #1 pick for corner, but I want LBers, dammit.

The Patriots had a superior defensive structure in place where everyone did their job. They had coaches that turned average players into solid/great players (Vrabel just to name 1).

Using the Patriots as an example is worthless because of the coaching and the players that made it work. You can't use the Chiefs as an example because we obviously can't take a WR and turn him into a CB. Hell we can't turn CB's into real corners.

I'm sick of 2nd tier corners. This division is loaded at receiver now with Rod Smith, McCardell, Moss. I want someone who can match up with those guys.

milkman
03-04-2005, 10:35 PM
Hartwell and Dyson. Then trade up for DJ.

As much as I like everything I've read and heard about DJ, I just don't know how we could trade up in the draft with onlt 2 day 1 picks.

If it were my choice, I'd sign Hartwell to man the middle, and Bell to hold down the outside, then go after Dyson, or another 2nd tier corner.

If I want another corner, then I select the best one available at my spot at 15, then draft a DE in the 2nd round.

tk13
03-04-2005, 10:36 PM
Why couldn't Lamar spend his other money out of his 2.6 billion net worth besides that 24 mil? I bet he'd be bankrupt if he did that. :rolleyes: :p
I certainly wouldn't complain, who would? But it just doesn't work that way. That's why these owners are in the NFL, to make money, all of them. It's a business. Even Daniel Snyder, he spends a lot of money so people think he wants to win more than everybody else, but that's really only because he makes a ton of money. He got a new stadium built that is a cash machine full of suites and luxury areas that puts Arrowhead to shame, and because of it he is able to still outspend everybody and make more money than everybody.... Jerry Jones won't be far behind with his new stadium, and so on. I'm afraid once guys like Lamar pass on things aren't going to be the same....

milkman
03-04-2005, 10:40 PM
The Patriots had a superior defensive structure in place where everyone did their job. They had coaches that turned average players into solid/great players (Vrabel just to name 1).

Using the Patriots as an example is worthless because of the coaching and the players that made it work. You can't use the Chiefs as an example because we obviously can't take a WR and turn him into a CB. Hell we can't turn CB's into real corners.

I'm sick of 2nd tier corners. This division is loaded at receiver now with Rod Smith, McCardell, Moss. I want someone who can match up with those guys.

You know, they do have good coaching, but the guys that line are good players.

Guys like McGinnest, Seymour, Bruschi don't get enough respect because the media is so hot for BB.

But we've already seen that BB isn't any more successful than any other coach if he doesn't have talent on the field, and those guys on the field in NE are talented.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2005, 10:42 PM
I'm afraid once guys like Lamar pass on things aren't going to be the same....

No disrespect to his pending death, but we might actually win a Super Bowl then.

splatbass
03-04-2005, 10:42 PM
Why couldn't Lamar spend his other money out of his 2.6 billion net worth besides that 24 mil? I bet he'd be bankrupt if he did that. :rolleyes: :p


That is easy to say when it isn't your money.

The Bad Guy
03-04-2005, 10:43 PM
You know, they do have good coaching, but the guys that line are good players.

Guys like McGinnest, Seymour, Bruschi don't get enough respect because the media is so hot for BB.

But we've already seen that BB isn't any more successful than any other coach if he doesn't have talent on the field, and those guys on the field in NE are talented.

Yeah but Seymour didn't play much in the playoffs either last year.

I agree they have good players, but a couple years ago McGinest was on his last legs and all of a sudden he turned into a force again.

Coaching is the key there. I don't know of any organization that can take a WR who has never played corner before, put him in at nickel back and never miss a beat.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2005, 10:46 PM
Here's my plan but this is why I'm not a GM but a soon to be commentator--

Sign----
Rolle
Hartwell
Smith (for cheap)
Surtain (for our 2nd rounder)
then trade our first pick in next year's draft to trade down to get Texas LB Derrick Johnson to take over for the inept liability that is oooooooo Fujita.

Yeah, yeah, I know what ya'll are going to say...

http://news.aunz.yimg.com/xp/reuters/20040914/12/1962262272.jpg

:)

milkman
03-04-2005, 10:48 PM
Yeah but Seymour didn't play much in the playoffs either last year.

I agree they have good players, but a couple years ago McGinest was on his last legs and all of a sudden he turned into a force again.

Coaching is the key there. I don't know of any organization that can take a WR who has never played corner before, put him in at nickel back and never miss a beat.

It's because of the front 7.

It's also because they teach a physical style of play.

The guys in the secondary, with the exception of Harrison, are 2nd tier players, but they hit, and hit hard.

As I was watching the playoff game against INdy, the first pass to Dallas Clark he dropped, because he turned his head, not to see where he was going, but clearly looking for the guy that was going to hit him.

That's what I want.

HITTERS, guys that intimidate.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2005, 10:48 PM
That is easy to say when it isn't your money.

If I wanted to win it wouldn't matter. Especially if I had the money which Lamar does.

tk13
03-04-2005, 10:49 PM
No disrespect to his pending death, but we might actually win a Super Bowl then.
Eh, I meant more in terms of the old school owners who are very respected and want to keep the NFL system of parity intact. Once they're gone, guys like Jones and Snyder and Lurie (or whatever the Eagles' owner is) are probably going to want to have the system to allow them to keep as much money as possible. And KC is probably just too small to compete with huge markets like DC and Philly and Dallas....

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2005, 10:54 PM
Eh, I meant more in terms of the old school owners who are very respected and want to keep the NFL system of parity intact. Once they're gone, guys like Jones and Snyder and Lurie (or whatever the Eagles' owner is) are probably going to want to have the system to allow them to keep as much money as possible. And KC is probably just too small to compete with huge markets like DC and Philly and Dallas....

Yeah, and FWIW, my feelings still haven't changed after what has happened today or hasn't happened. I think we'll actually get Rolle and Hartwell, with enough room to sign another guy.

matts22
03-04-2005, 11:08 PM
Man, I am really starting to think that we shouldn't get a top FA CB.

I mean, why not get Hartwell AND Bell, and a lower FA CB. Then draft CB in the 1st and 2nd round. I mean, our front 7 would be pretty solid, and if we got Rolle or Rogers in round one, they could start while Warfield is suspended and then play nickel/compete with FA CB for the spot opposite Warfield.

The money for top CB's is just freakin rediculous. Get a solid group of LB's, and a servicable secondary. Even if you have to play nickel all the time because all the other teams do is pass against you...at least they become one dimensional.

It seems like all we hear is that we might get Rolle, but after that, who knows. I would rather us sign Hartwell, Bell, and a decent CB than settle for just our old defense plus Rolle.

What do you guys think?

Chief Roundup
03-04-2005, 11:11 PM
Here's my plan but this is why I'm not a GM but a soon to be commentator--

Sign----
Rolle
Hartwell
Smith (for cheap)
Surtain (for our 2nd rounder)
then trade our first pick in next year's draft to trade down to get Texas LB Derrick Johnson to take over for the inept liability that is oooooooo Fujita.

Yeah, yeah, I know what ya'll are going to say...

http://news.aunz.yimg.com/xp/reuters/20040914/12/1962262272.jpg

:)

dream on

The Bad Guy
03-04-2005, 11:11 PM
I watched our pass defense get shredded to bits last year. I can't understand the logic behind avoiding Rolle, but then paying Bell the big SB he thinks he deserves.

Bell asked for 13 million from the Giants.

I think we have the chance to get a top 5 corner and we better do it.

Count Zarth
03-04-2005, 11:12 PM
That's the market. Show him the money. Who gives a shit, Carl? You ain't gonna be around to pay for it anyway.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2005, 11:15 PM
I watched our pass defense get shredded to bits last year. I can't understand the logic behind avoiding Rolle, but then paying Bell the big SB he thinks he deserves.

Bell asked for 13 million from the Giants.

I think we have the chance to get a top 5 corner and we better do it.

You're way off, BG. It was $12 million. :p

Nightfyre
03-05-2005, 03:14 AM
I watched our pass defense get shredded to bits last year. I can't understand the logic behind avoiding Rolle, but then paying Bell the big SB he thinks he deserves.

Bell asked for 13 million from the Giants.

I think we have the chance to get a top 5 corner and we better do it.
I think he realizes he overrated his market value by now.

Wallcrawler
03-05-2005, 10:55 AM
OK, I keep comong back to this.

The Pats had a top 10 D, and won the SB with a ferocious front 7 and a less than spectacular secondary, and you guys want to sink the cap money into a corner?

Sign Hartwell, and an OLB, then get a 2nd tier corner.

Hell, I'll even give you the #1 pick for corner, but I want LBers, dammit.



The Patriots also run a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT defensive scheme than what Gunther Cunningham runs.

Gun's scheme is much like Jim Johnson's in Philly. Its an attacking defense, and CAPABLE CORNERBACKS are VITAL. Warfield could handle a team's #2 by himself, and Rolle could certainly line up on the #1.

Having corners that you can just leave out there by themselves frees up a lot of things for you to do defensively when you like to blitz as much as Gun does.


Gun doesnt run a "shit player friendly" defensive scheme like the Pats do. Belicheck/Crennel found ways to take all the pressure off of the corner position on the defense. They have the personnel to do that with. The KC front four is not equipped to do something similar.

The only way we get pressure on the QB is if Jared Allen gets free, or Gun brings the blitz.

When you bring the blitz, people are man to man.

Man to man with Mcleon or Bartee out there covering one of the receivers is a recipe for disaster. Warfield isnt much better, but he is far and away better than those two bungholes.


Rolle is the top priority, because once he is here, we have a capable guy to match up against the other team's biggest WR threat, and still have Warfield to handle the next best.

If they could land Hartwell also, that would be huge.


Rolle is the first step (Or they probably could have had Hartwell by now), and getting someone to shore up the middle is next on the list. Third I think would have to be finding a pass rushing presence from the linebacker position to get some added pressure on the Qbs, which might just come by way of the NFL draft.

siberian khatru
03-05-2005, 10:57 AM
Gun doesnt run a "shit player friendly" defensive scheme like the Pats do.


ROFL ROFL

Too bad, because we've got plenty of shit players to run it.

Mr. Laz
03-05-2005, 10:58 AM
The Patriots also run a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT defensive scheme than what Gunther Cunningham runs.

Gun's scheme is much like Jim Johnson's in Philly. Its an attacking defense, and CAPABLE CORNERBACKS are VITAL. Warfield could handle a team's #2 by himself, and Rolle could certainly line up on the #1.

Having corners that you can just leave out there by themselves frees up a lot of things for you to do defensively when you like to blitz as much as Gun does.

yep

milkman
03-05-2005, 05:09 PM
The Patriots also run a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT defensive scheme than what Gunther Cunningham runs.

Gun's scheme is much like Jim Johnson's in Philly. Its an attacking defense, and CAPABLE CORNERBACKS are VITAL. Warfield could handle a team's #2 by himself, and Rolle could certainly line up on the #1.

Having corners that you can just leave out there by themselves frees up a lot of things for you to do defensively when you like to blitz as much as Gun does.


Gun doesnt run a "shit player friendly" defensive scheme like the Pats do. Belicheck/Crennel found ways to take all the pressure off of the corner position on the defense. They have the personnel to do that with. The KC front four is not equipped to do something similar.

The only way we get pressure on the QB is if Jared Allen gets free, or Gun brings the blitz.

When you bring the blitz, people are man to man.

Man to man with Mcleon or Bartee out there covering one of the receivers is a recipe for disaster. Warfield isnt much better, but he is far and away better than those two bungholes.


Rolle is the top priority, because once he is here, we have a capable guy to match up against the other team's biggest WR threat, and still have Warfield to handle the next best.

If they could land Hartwell also, that would be huge.


Rolle is the first step (Or they probably could have had Hartwell by now), and getting someone to shore up the middle is next on the list. Third I think would have to be finding a pass rushing presence from the linebacker position to get some added pressure on the Qbs, which might just come by way of the NFL draft.

True, and I'm not saying don't go out and sign a CB.
I'm saying that, if the blitz is effective, then you don't need Rolle and Surtain to cover.
Andre Dyason and Warfield would be a competent enough pair of corners to get the job done, with an Antrell Rolle or Carlos Rogers added as the nickel.

The SB for Dyson would be somewhat less than S. Rolle, which would leave money to get other guys that, IMO, are more of a priority, like Hartwell.

Nightfyre
03-05-2005, 05:12 PM
True, and I'm not saying don't go out and sign a CB.
I'm saying that, if the blitz is effective, then you don't need Rolle and Surtain to cover.
Andre Dyason and Warfield would be a competent enough pair of corners to get the job done, with an Antrell Rolle or Carlos Rogers added as the nickel.

The SB for Dyson would be somewhat less than S. Rolle, which would leave money to get other guys that, IMO, are more of a priority, like Hartwell.
Using Dialectics here....

The Antithesis to this is that coverage also provides more time for the pass rush. The better your coverage, the more pressure youre applying.

milkman
03-05-2005, 05:19 PM
Using Dialectics here....

The Antithesis to this is that coverage also provides more time for the pass rush. The better your coverage, the more pressure youre applying.

The problem, as I see it, is that, with the added emphasis on the contact rules, maintaining coverage is far more difficult than it was just a couple of seasons ago.

That means that however you approach it, you have to get to the QB quicker than you did in the past, otherwise alleged shutdown corners (a dead breed) become toast.

Just ask Champ Bailey.

Wallcrawler
03-05-2005, 05:20 PM
True, and I'm not saying don't go out and sign a CB.
I'm saying that, if the blitz is effective, then you don't need Rolle and Surtain to cover.



If the blitz is effective, its BECAUSE we had Rolle and whoever to cover. The blitz cannot be effective if the Qb is dropping back, and throwing the ball to a wide open receiver within two seconds.


If you blitz and you make a sack, its because the rush got there so fast that the receivers were not able to beat their coverman.


Can you name for me ONE receiver in the league who is not able to beat William Bartee or Dexter Mcleon when they read blitz?

I think not.


Warfield and Rolle will give the blitz the time needed to get there, and not just having the Qb throw up some shit pass that gets caught because the coverman doesnt know how to turn his head and try to break up the pass.

Warfield was even getting burned by number one receivers. We need Rolle, or someone that matches his caliber. Andre Dyson does not.


You can have the greatest blitz in the world called, but if the QB gets the ball off in those 2 seconds against our current corners, odds favor the offense moving the ball down the field.


Bring in Hartwell, Bell, whatever you like. Send them after the QB with Bartee and Warfield covering, and youre going to see a big play for the offense.

Gun's D requires capable corners, end of story. We dont run Crennel's defensive schemes. We run an attack style scheme that relies heavily on man to man coverage.

Front 7 aint gonna do shit if your secondary cant cover their men in the attack style scheme that Gunther employs.

milkman
03-05-2005, 05:25 PM
If the blitz is effective, its BECAUSE we had Rolle and whoever to cover. The blitz cannot be effective if the Qb is dropping back, and throwing the ball to a wide open receiver within two seconds.


If you blitz and you make a sack, its because the rush got there so fast that the receivers were not able to beat their coverman.


Can you name for me ONE receiver in the league who is not able to beat William Bartee or Dexter Mcleon when they read blitz?

I think not.


Warfield and Rolle will give the blitz the time needed to get there, and not just having the Qb throw up some shit pass that gets caught because the coverman doesnt know how to turn his head and try to break up the pass.

Warfield was even getting burned by number one receivers. We need Rolle, or someone that matches his caliber. Andre Dyson does not.


You can have the greatest blitz in the world called, but if the QB gets the ball off in those 2 seconds against our current corners, odds favor the offense moving the ball down the field.


Bring in Hartwell, Bell, whatever you like. Send them after the QB with Bartee and Warfield covering, and youre going to see a big play for the offense.

Gun's D requires capable corners, end of story. We dont run Crennel's defensive schemes. We run an attack style scheme that relies heavily on man to man coverage.

Front 7 aint gonna do shit if your secondary cant cover their men in the attack style scheme that Gunther employs.

We'll just have to disagree on this.
Cause in todays NFL, there simply isn't any such animal as a shutdown corner.
The old adage that games are won in the trenches is even more true now than ever before.

Skip Towne
03-05-2005, 05:40 PM
I'll admit I can't understand these astronomical prices for CB's when the NFL has neutered the position. One only has to look at what Champ Bailey didn't do for Denver to see that there are no shut down corners anymore. The rules don't allow it. So why pay top dollar for what used to be?

milkman
03-05-2005, 05:42 PM
I'll admit I can't understand these astronomical prices for CB's when the NFL has neutered the position. One only has to look at what Champ Bailey didn't do for Denver to see that there are no shut down corners anymore. The rules don't allow it. So why pay top dollar for what used to be?

Hell just froze over.

Ash
03-05-2005, 05:44 PM
I'll admit I can't understand these astronomical prices for CB's when the NFL has neutered the position. One only has to look at what Champ Bailey didn't do for Denver to see that there are no shut down corners anymore. The rules don't allow it. So why pay top dollar for what used to be?

I agree if champ is one of the best in the NFL then the position has been neutered.He got burned quite a bit.

Wallcrawler
03-05-2005, 05:52 PM
We'll just have to disagree on this.
Cause in todays NFL, there simply isn't any such animal as a shutdown corner.


In your view maybe. But I know the difference in talent level between a William Bartee, and a Samari Rolle. You cannot tell me that just because of a rule change, Samari Rolle's value is decreased to where you dont want a guy who can cover receivers like he can. By that standard we should just keep Bartee as the starter and load up on linebackers, and defensive linemen. Considering that we only have ONE good defensive lineman and one halfway decent linebacker, I think we will just have to try the Samari Rolle approach and see what happens.



I still dont see how you think that a stellar front 7, blitzing, in a MAN TO MAN SCHEME, with shit at secondary is going to be successful. If the corner cant cover the receiver, the QB isnt going to need much time to throw at all. A simple fade pattern takes about one second to execute. Throw it up, watch the receiver own the DB, and leave your precious front 7 eating dust while he dances on his way to the endzone.

(We run man to man most of the time, its fact. Gun loves to blitz, and this is not going to change. This is the whole reason for needing the cornerback that can actually cover.)

Warfield and Bartee/Mcleon cannot do the job. We need someone who can.

You act as if all cornerbacks have just been knocked down to the same level due to a rule change, which is not true. Rolle can take a receiver and cause a ton of problems for him. Plenty more than Bartee could ever hope to cause in his wettest of dreams. Unless you know of some linebackers who can cover wide receivers in man coverage, your front 7 argument isnt holding up with me.



The old adage that games are won in the trenches is even more true now than ever before.

Maybe if youre running zone predominantly and have that outstanding front 7. But in case you havent noticed, not all teams have an outstanding pool of talent confined to the front 7. Certainly not the Chiefs.


They could do what you ask, and sign linebackers, and boost the front 7, and forego the CB position to have another edition of "Welcome Dexter Mcleon", signing a mediocre corner. In Gun's scheme, it means nothing. The Front 7 would stop the run. Maybe even get some pressure on the QB. But when the man to man coverage is not maintained, you will see big plays down the field all season long, while your linebackers watch from 50 yards down the field bitching because the cornerbacks arent good enough to cover a wide receiver for more than 2 seconds before letting him get wide open.

RINGLEADER
03-05-2005, 05:53 PM
Screw the big signing bonus...I say we get our money's worth out of a new "scheme"...

milkman
03-05-2005, 06:01 PM
I never once said let's try to do this with Bartee and McCleon.
I know they can't cover a dead mouse with a blanket.

I want to upgrade at corner.

Let me repeat that.

I want to upgrade at corner.

I just disagree with you that Andre Dyson isn't good enough for the job.

Skip Towne
03-05-2005, 06:06 PM
Hell just froze over.
Oh, I agree with you quite a bit. I just don't say so.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-05-2005, 06:07 PM
I leave for a couple hours and I come back expecting Rolle to be signed, but no. WTF is going on?

Every hour that goes by, goes our chances at Hartwell and any other FA we want to get in (assuming we even want to sign anyone).

Logical
03-05-2005, 06:09 PM
I leave for a couple hours and I come back expecting Rolle to be signed, but no. WTF is going on?

Every hour that goes by, goes our chances at Hartwell and any other FA we want to get in (assuming we even want to sign anyone). You do realize that the odds of anything happening on a Saturday or Sunday are almost nil with any team and are probably non-existent with the Chiefs.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-05-2005, 06:15 PM
The Chiefs are probably the only team that takes Saturday and Sunday off.

When Rolle came in on Wednesday and left on Thurday he said he wanted something done by Friday. Give me a break! lol, as much as I love this team, I hate them too.

milkman
03-05-2005, 06:19 PM
The Chiefs D is only team that takes Sunday off

I think that's waht you intended to say, isn't it?

Chiefs Pantalones
03-05-2005, 06:23 PM
I think that's waht you intended to say, isn't it?

ROFL That too.

The Bad Guy
03-05-2005, 06:24 PM
You do realize that the odds of anything happening on a Saturday or Sunday are almost nil with any team and are probably non-existent with the Chiefs.

Contracts can't be approved by the league office till Monday, but things still happen on the weekends. Players can sign deals.

Toad
03-05-2005, 07:45 PM
...say 8-10 counts this year, then the rest is added to next year's tier. That would lower the cap number now, but raise it significantly down the road. So instead of 3 million annually, you'd have 1.5-2 in bonus against the cap this year, then 3.25-3.4 from '06-'09. And I'm sure they could be even more creative with it.

I'm not saying it's not doable or that we shouldn't do it, just that we need to realize that contracts aren't going to be quite as long-term now as usual.

Just a hunch- I think the FO has offered something much like that (2 tier bonus). That may be where we have stalled.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-05-2005, 07:52 PM
If we lose Hartwell to the Cardinals, I'm going to throw up.