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View Full Version : IF we sign Hartwell, do we go 3-4 or 'Falcon'?


Mr. Kotter
03-08-2005, 11:46 PM
IF they are really still persuing Hartwell....I have a sneaking suspicion that Gun may put some combination of Bell/Hartwell/Mitchell/Beisel in the middle, with Fujita/Beisel/Bell/Fox as the OLBs or "Falcon"....

Personally, for me....a Fujita/Bell/Mitchell/Hartwell lineup would be intriguing.

Thoughts???

Chiefs Pantalones
03-08-2005, 11:47 PM
This is the Chiefs we're talking about, they are done with signing LBs now. What do you think this is, a winning organization or something?

tk13
03-08-2005, 11:49 PM
Sign Hartwell and draft Derrick Johnson, go to a 4-4 defense, and kill the QB! :)

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2005, 11:50 PM
This is the Chiefs we're talking about, they are done with signing LBs now. What do you think this is, a winning organization or something?

Damn, I hope you are wrong. But your skepticism is certainly understandable....what IF they sign Hartwell though; what do you see? :hmmm:

Chiefs Pantalones
03-08-2005, 11:51 PM
Damn, I hope you are wrong. But your skepticism is certainly understandable....what IF they sign Hartwell though; what do you see? :hmmm:

They won't.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2005, 11:51 PM
Sign Hartwell and draft Derrick Johnson, go to a 4-4 defense, and kill the QB! :)

Hell, yeah; we could even drop Hartwell into coverage if we "had" too...heh.

(Hey, it WOULD work in HS....heh, heh.) :)

Chan93lx50
03-08-2005, 11:52 PM
My opinion is put the best damn talent on the field at a given time!

I also agree with Ed, we are done signing LB's..........

Logical
03-08-2005, 11:52 PM
IF they are really still persuing Hartwell....I have a sneaking suspicion that Gun may put some combination of Bell/Hartwell/Mitchell/Beisel in the middle, with Fujita/Beisel/Bell/Fox as the OLBs or "Falcon"....

Personally, for me....a Fujita/Bell/Mitchell/Hartwell lineup would be intriguing.

Thoughts???That would be one weird linebacker group 1 true OLB and 3 ILBs. I think they would short range pass us to death. They woulld just never be able to run except at Mitchell.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2005, 11:52 PM
My opinion is put the best damn talent on the field at a given time!

I tend to agree with Ed, we are done signing LB's

No, no, no! :banghead:

Chan93lx50
03-08-2005, 11:54 PM
That would be one weird linebacker group 1 true OLB and 3 ILBs. I think they would short range pass us to death. They woulld just never be able to run except at Mitchell.

Ha ha, I guess that would be one way to shore up our run D

Delano
03-08-2005, 11:55 PM
....what IF they sign Hartwell though; what do you see?

That isn't going to happen. Carl already said the front office is moving on in his press conference regarding the Bell signing.

Q: Does this end your pursuit for free agent linebackers?

PETERSON: “We will turn our attention to another defensive position of need. We were negotiating at the same time with (LB) Ed Hartwell. But this negotiation with Todd France has been going on for a week. I got comfortable with where we were able to negotiate this deal. We pulled the trigger on it, on a seven-year deal.”

I forsee a lot of Kawika Mitchell next year, like it or not. They will move Bell around if he stays healthy and bring Mitchell in during certain situations.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2005, 11:55 PM
That would be one weird linebacker group 1 true OLB and 3 ILBs. I think they would short range pass us to death. They woulld just never be able to run except at Mitchell.

You really think so? I have a buddy who is a Steeler's die-hard....his take on Bell? That, when healthy....he is a stud. (Duh!)

What was interesting is, he said that actually he is pretty decent in coverage--pickin' up the flats, the "seam" routes, and helpin' on the TE. He actually showed me a couple of game films from 2002 where Bell did look good in that role..... :hmmm:

I'm really just thinkin' out loud, here.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2005, 11:57 PM
That isn't going to happen. Carl already said the front office is moving on in his press conference regarding the Bell signing.

[QUOTE[Q: Does this end your pursuit for free agent linebackers?

PETERSON: “We will turn our attention to another defensive position of need. We were negotiating at the same time with (LB) Ed Hartwell. But this negotiation with Todd France has been going on for a week. I got comfortable with where we were able to negotiate this deal. We pulled the trigger on it, on a seven-year deal."

I forsee a lot of Kawika Mitchell next year, like it or not. They will move Bell around if he stays healthy and bring Mitchell in during certain situations.

Thanks for the quote; that does seem to close that door....although I've read at least three or four places, we ARE still in the Hartwell hunt. :shrug:

Wallcrawler
03-08-2005, 11:58 PM
Carl said in one of the press conferences that with LB Bell signed, that they would focus on another need on defense. Im guessing that means either the cornerback or safety position.


I highly doubt we see them pursue Ed Hartwell any further, considering the 10 m signing bonus he is wanting.

Delano
03-08-2005, 11:59 PM
Carl said in one of the press conferences that with LB Bell signed, that they would focus on another need on defense. Im guessing that means either the cornerback or safety position.


I highly doubt we see them pursue Ed Hartwell any further, considering the 10 m signing bonus he is wanting.

Umm, yeah.. pretty much.

mcan
03-09-2005, 12:00 AM
I'll tell you this RIGHT NOW...


If the Chiefs go to a 4-3, you will see some Major juggling...


LE: Hicks
T: Siavii
RE: Sims

LOLB: Fujita
LILB: Hartwell
RILB: Bell
ROLB: Allen

milkman
03-09-2005, 12:01 AM
That isn't going to happen. Carl already said the front office is moving on in his press conference regarding the Bell signing.

I don't believe a word that comes from Carl's mouth, ever.

Stinger
03-09-2005, 12:02 AM
We don't have the size upfront to go 3-4 do we?

Chan93lx50
03-09-2005, 12:02 AM
I don't believe a word that comes from Carl's mouth, ever.

You have a very good point!

Logical
03-09-2005, 12:03 AM
You really think so? I have a buddy who is a Steeler's die-hard....his take on Bell? That, when healthy....he is a stud. (Duh!)

What was interesting is, he said that actually he is pretty decent in coverage--pickin' up the flats, the "seam" routes, and helpin' on the TE. He actually showed me a couple of game films from 2002 where Bell did look good in that role..... :hmmm:

I'm really just thinkin' out loud, here.Even if true that only gives us one good coverage linebacker, that was the problem with not getting Hartwell also (though I admit I can't see both of them under the cap and us still getting Surtain/Law)

mcan
03-09-2005, 12:04 AM
You have a very good point!


Only if we move Allen to OLB and Sims to end... See below...

Count Alex's Losses
03-09-2005, 12:04 AM
There's no way the Chiefs go to 3-4. Just forget it right now. Jared Allen doesn't have the size to play end in a 3-4, and Hicks would get killed.

Our D lines up perfectly in a 4-3 if we sign Hartwell.

OLB: Bell
MLB: Hartwell
OLB: Fujita
DE: Allen
DT: Dalton
DT: Siavii/Sims (rooting for Junior to take over)
DE: Hicks

We get a new corner and a new safety in here with that front seven and we're looking at a good defense.

keg in kc
03-09-2005, 12:05 AM
Even if true that only gives us one good coverage linebacker, that was the problem with not getting Hartwell also (though I admit I can't see both of them under the cap and us still getting Surtain/Law)Hartwell's a run stuffer, not a coverage backer.

And if people keep predicting the 3-4 every offseason, eventually they'll guess right. Maybe. Or should I say maby.

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2005, 12:07 AM
....(though I admit I can't see both of them under the cap and us still getting Surtain/Law)

THAT, bud, is PRECISELY scenario I'm envisioning: Hartwell being the other "big name" pickup. Then Law or Surtain becoming available because Law may be willing to come cheaper than expected or Miami will want SOMETHING for Surtain.

:thumb:

At that point, adding a safety in the second round would probably shore up that position---this year's group seems 'deep.' :hmmm:

Delano
03-09-2005, 12:08 AM
I don't believe a word that comes from Carl's mouth, ever.

It wouldn't make sense to lie about moving on when Hartwell is on the verge of signing elsewhere.

I know Carl likes to negotiate, but he's not that stupid.

Woodrow Call
03-09-2005, 12:11 AM
THAT, bud, is PRECISELY scenario I'm envisioning: Hartwell being the other "big name" pickup. Then Law or Surtain becoming available because Law may be willing to come cheaper than expected or Miami will want SOMETHING for Surtain.

:thumb:

At that point, adding a safety in the second round would probably shore up that position---this year's group seems 'deep.' :hmmm:

It could happen if Law gets desperate but with the Postons as his agent I dont think he will.

Surtain might be doable because he wants out and might backload it.

I have to think the Chiefs know they have to get one or the other.

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2005, 12:12 AM
We don't have the size upfront to go 3-4 do we?

Actually, with a front of Browning/Saviai/Allen....and Bell as the "up"backer, I think we'd be okay. Allen does need to bulk up, but I read somewhere that he was already up to 280. I don't think it would be our "normal" defense...but I think it would be interesting.

Certainly, though...that is a very good point. :hmmm:

mcan
03-09-2005, 12:21 AM
...I read somewhere that he was already up to 280.


are you serious? Jeez, I hope hes not getting slower... That like 20 lbs in just a few months. :shake:

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2005, 12:23 AM
are you serious? Jeez, I hope hes not getting slower... That like 20 lbs in just a few months. :shake:

Maybe it was his "goal;" but the piece I read said maintaining his speed was his major priority. Something about legs and gluts, which should NOT slow him down much.

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2005, 10:24 PM
It's STILL a possibiltity.

Heh. Even Phobia agrees--gotta be somethin' to it. :thumb:

Dayze
03-09-2005, 10:28 PM
that would require putting Sims heads up over center; where he would have a hard time matching his stellar 13 tackle season of 2004.

OldTownChief
03-09-2005, 10:30 PM
Sign Hartwell and draft Derrick Johnson, go to a 4-4 defense, and kill the QB! :)

Jake would shit his pants.

jspchief
03-09-2005, 10:32 PM
Am I the only one that remembers the "falcon" as a worthless scheme? Didn't DT have his worst year as the "falcon"?

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2005, 10:34 PM
Am I the only one that remembers the "falcon" as a worthless scheme? Didn't DT have his worst year as the "falcon"?

Who cares? It sounds COOL...like 'monster' in High school ball, heh. Waaaaayyyy cool. :thumb:

J Diddy
03-09-2005, 10:38 PM
I'm of the opinion, the reason we got bell is for the 4-3 and to play outside. I think durability is a question in the 3-4 where he would occasionally be double teamed by large offensive linemen, in a 4-3 the worse he would get is 1 on 1.

J Diddy
03-09-2005, 10:39 PM
Who cares? It sounds COOL...like 'monster' in High school ball, heh. Waaaaayyyy cool. :thumb:

Yeah, I remember them days. Cheerleaders wanting to play with the monster. I happily obliged.

Mr. Laz
03-09-2005, 10:41 PM
If the chiefs are really serious about going to the super bowl they should sign Hartwell too AND the then keep Fujita.

why?

because if you want to win a super bowl you need to be great at one spot on either side of the ball. On the offensive side we are great at offensive line. On defense we aren't great anywhere.

i'm a HUGE cornerback homer... but that's not gonna work out, there's only 1 really good cornerback available. So lets just field and outstanding linebacker corps.

sign hartwell ... start hartwell,Bell,fujita .. hartwell has the speed to play outside. We also have the flexibility to stick beisel or mitchell out there and play a 3-4. It also gives us coverage in case bell has an injury again.


sign hartwell, draft a cornerback in round 1 AND 2

1st - carlos rogers
2nd - eric green

we'll be really young in the secondary, but our run defense should be outstanding.

put bartee,battle at free safety along with the rest of the million safeties and may the best man win.


but at least we will have SOMETHING to hang our hat on for the defense.

mcan
03-09-2005, 11:53 PM
Bell is a middle linebacker. He is comfortable there. He's also the best linebacker we have so he should STAY in the middle. That's all there is to it...

The only nose tackle we have on this roster is Siavii, and I don't think he would be ready to play. Sims would be a pretty good end in the 3-4, and Jared Allen would be fantastic OLB in a 3-4. But the fact is, I think that our second defensive tackle (Browning/Dalton) is/are better at what they do than Fujita is at what he does. So, you keep the best 11 on the field by staying with a 4-3. However, if we could trade Dalton and Fujita for a draft pick, and sign Hartwell. Then we might be able to move up and grab Johnson. In which case, the 3-4 would make a TON of sense! (NOTE: This is not necessarily the BEST thing to do, and certainly wouldn't happen).

Hicks
Siavii
Sims

Johnson
Hartwell
Bell
Allen


would be a fantastic front seven, and fast as hell...

Mr. Kotter
03-10-2005, 12:00 AM
If the chiefs are really serious about going to the super bowl they should sign Hartwell too AND the then keep Fujita.

why?

because if you want to win a super bowl you need to be great at one spot on either side of the ball. On the offensive side we are great at offensive line. On defense we aren't great anywhere.

i'm a HUGE cornerback homer... but that's not gonna work out, there's only 1 really good cornerback available. So lets just field and outstanding linebacker corps.

sign hartwell ... start hartwell,Bell,fujita .. hartwell has the speed to play outside. We also have the flexibility to stick beisel or mitchell out there and play a 3-4. It also gives us coverage in case bell has an injury again.


sign hartwell, draft a cornerback in round 1 AND 2

1st - carlos rogers
2nd - eric green

we'll be really young in the secondary, but our run defense should be outstanding.

put bartee,battle at free safety along with the rest of the million safeties and may the best man win.


but at least we will have SOMETHING to hang our hat on for the defense.

As Meatloaf once said Laz, "you took the words right out of my mouth..." :thumb:

Mr. Kotter
03-10-2005, 12:02 AM
....
Hicks
Siavii
Sims

Johnson
Hartwell
Bell
Allen


would be a fantastic front seven, and fast as hell...

Damn it, mcan! :cuss:

I just spooged all over my keyboard; you owe me $89 plus tax....sukka. ;)

J Diddy
03-10-2005, 12:06 AM
Damn it, mcan! :cuss:

I just spooged all over my keyboard; you owe me $89 plus tax....sukka. ;)

$89 for a keyboard, you can get a waterproof one for around $10.

Woodrow Call
03-10-2005, 12:13 AM
If the chiefs are really serious about going to the super bowl they should sign Hartwell too AND the then keep Fujita.

why?

because if you want to win a super bowl you need to be great at one spot on either side of the ball. On the offensive side we are great at offensive line. On defense we aren't great anywhere.

i'm a HUGE cornerback homer... but that's not gonna work out, there's only 1 really good cornerback available. So lets just field and outstanding linebacker corps.

sign hartwell ... start hartwell,Bell,fujita .. hartwell has the speed to play outside. We also have the flexibility to stick beisel or mitchell out there and play a 3-4. It also gives us coverage in case bell has an injury again.


sign hartwell, draft a cornerback in round 1 AND 2

1st - carlos rogers
2nd - eric green

we'll be really young in the secondary, but our run defense should be outstanding.

put bartee,battle at free safety along with the rest of the million safeties and may the best man win.


but at least we will have SOMETHING to hang our hat on for the defense.

:thumb: I slowly moving onto to this bandwagon. I believe the front 7 is the most important. If you add two rookies to the mix at secondary surely 2 good ones could rise to the top.

Rausch
03-10-2005, 12:17 AM
:thumb: I slowly moving onto to this bandwagon. I believe the front 7 is the most important. If you add two rookies to the mix at secondary surely 2 good ones could rise to the top.

I'd tend to agree, but one has to remember that our CB's are such a special kind of WORTHLESS that any pass rush we generate is meaningless. We were top 5 in the NFL last year and STILL couldn't stop an offense from completing 3rd and long...

I don't think we have to find a stud, but we MUST at least find a servicable starter opposite Warfield. MUST....

htismaqe
03-10-2005, 06:21 AM
Carl said in one of the press conferences that with LB Bell signed, that they would focus on another need on defense. Im guessing that means either the cornerback or safety position.


I highly doubt we see them pursue Ed Hartwell any further, considering the 10 m signing bonus he is wanting.

That doesn't mean Hartwell can't sign.

We're just no longer negotiating.

There's an offer on the table, take it or leave it. Right now, he doesn't have a better option.

htismaqe
03-10-2005, 06:22 AM
Am I the only one that remembers the "falcon" as a worthless scheme? Didn't DT have his worst year as the "falcon"?

I was going to post this and then I saw you already said it.

The Falcon was one of Gunther's WORST ideas ever.

htismaqe
03-10-2005, 06:24 AM
Bell is a middle linebacker. He is comfortable there. He's also the best linebacker we have so he should STAY in the middle. That's all there is to it...

The only nose tackle we have on this roster is Siavii, and I don't think he would be ready to play. Sims would be a pretty good end in the 3-4, and Jared Allen would be fantastic OLB in a 3-4. But the fact is, I think that our second defensive tackle (Browning/Dalton) is/are better at what they do than Fujita is at what he does. So, you keep the best 11 on the field by staying with a 4-3. However, if we could trade Dalton and Fujita for a draft pick, and sign Hartwell. Then we might be able to move up and grab Johnson. In which case, the 3-4 would make a TON of sense! (NOTE: This is not necessarily the BEST thing to do, and certainly wouldn't happen).

Hicks
Siavii
Sims

Johnson
Hartwell
Bell
Allen


would be a fantastic front seven, and fast as hell...

Siavii is big enough, but he's not a 3-4 NT. I remember Gunther or someone saying that he was strictly a 1-gap player.

whoman69
03-10-2005, 09:26 AM
To run a 3-4, you need a line that can clog things up. We just don't have the line personnel to do that. Allen is way too light with a 3-4 and Sims can't clog up one guy many times. Do we really trust Hicks in a 3-4?