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BigRedChief
03-18-2005, 09:05 AM
Okay , I've spent countless hours on the net researching cars. Thanks for the great links to info planeteers!:thumb:

The criteria was:
Reasonable gas mileage 25mph+(Highway)
Comfortable for my 6'2" fat ass to fit in
Not an SUV/Mini Van

Search is down to these:

2005 Toyota Avalon

2005 Chrysler 300

2005 Mustang

Avalon and 300 because they are comfortable and smooth driving cars. Mustang because I just like it but its rear wheel drive and in the winter around KC...Yikes.:(

opinions?

stumppy
03-18-2005, 09:10 AM
The new 300's are too cool for school. Probably the best looking car chrysler has had in years.
I was a Serv. Mngr. at a Chrysler dealership for several years and liked the 300 every since they came out with them but the new ones are just fugging awesome.

Hoover
03-18-2005, 09:13 AM
I would go with the 2005 Toyota Avalon. Toyota Cars are very dependable and resale is always good. It might not be as trendy as the 300M but I think its a better car.

Gaz
03-18-2005, 09:14 AM
The Avalon.

Check out reliability and resale values.

xoxo~
Gaz
Would have a one-nighter with the 300, but would marry the Avalon

Saulbadguy
03-18-2005, 09:18 AM
Avalon.

Chryslers are pieces of shit.

Hoover
03-18-2005, 09:20 AM
The Avalon.

Check out reliability and resale values.

xoxo~
Gaz
Would have a one-nighter with the 300, but would marry the Avalon

You always have a nice way of putting things.

stumppy
03-18-2005, 09:31 AM
Avalon.

Chryslers are pieces of shit.


Jap lovin bastige :Poke:

BigRedChief
03-18-2005, 09:34 AM
Jap lovin bastige :Poke:

The Avalon is 100% American built and 85% of its parts are American made.

stumppy
03-18-2005, 09:35 AM
The Avalon is 100% American built and 85% of its parts are American made.


Facts have never got in the way of my insult slinging.:p

Hoover
03-18-2005, 09:35 AM
All the "American" Cars are made in Mexico

Saulbadguy
03-18-2005, 09:38 AM
I find it kind of interesting in Japan they don't have different brand names, within brands. They don't have Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti.

BigRedChief
03-18-2005, 10:19 AM
All the "American" Cars are made in Mexico

From my research I've found that there are more and more cars being built in America. Avalon got me to look at it when I found out it was built in America.

Hoover
03-18-2005, 10:21 AM
From my research I've found that there are more and more cars being built in America. Avalon got me to look at it when I found out it was built in America.
The reason Japs build cars here is our high rate of taxes on imports.

Phobia
03-18-2005, 10:22 AM
I find it kind of interesting in Japan they don't have different brand names, within brands. They don't have Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti.

That's because the Japanese aren't pretentious bastards like Americans. They can't drive worth a shit, but at least they aren't pretentious.

Cochise
03-18-2005, 10:30 AM
From my research I've found that there are more and more cars being built in America. Avalon got me to look at it when I found out it was built in America.

It's done to skirt tariffs.

HemiEd
03-18-2005, 10:31 AM
I find it kind of interesting in Japan they don't have different brand names, within brands. They don't have Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti.


Those names were born when the U.S. tried to implement import quotas on different brands. They just created more brands.

morphius
03-18-2005, 10:34 AM
It's done to skirt tariffs.
And the land is a lot cheaper here as well...

BigRedChief
03-18-2005, 10:34 AM
The reason Japs build cars here is our high rate of taxes on imports.

Works for me. I guess its better that it creates more American jobs even if the corporate profits go back to Japan.

Frosty
03-18-2005, 10:34 AM
My grandpa fought the japanese in Burma in WWII and his brother was captured (and tortured) by the japanese, so he is VERY anti-Japan.

We've had this discussion many times about buying "American" only. I just don't see the distinction any more. Is a Honda built in Ohio less American than a Ford built in Mexico? :shrug:

How about Chrysler? Do they still count as American, since they are owned by the Germans?

It bugs him that I have a Mazda MPV van. Mazda is mostly owned by Ford and uses a European Ford engine. Some new GMs use Honda engines. My Jeep uses a japanese transmission. How do you tell anymore what's American and what's not? :shrug:

morphius
03-18-2005, 10:40 AM
My grandpa fought the japanese in Burma in WWII and his brother was captured (and tortured) by the japanese, so he is VERY anti-Japan.

We've had this discussion many times about buying "American" only. I just don't see the distinction any more. Is a Honda built in Ohio less American than a Ford built in Mexico? :shrug:

How about Chrysler? Do they still count as American, since they are owned by the Germans?

It bugs him that I have a Mazda MPV van. Mazda is mostly owned by Ford and uses a European Ford engine. Some new GMs use Honda engines. My Jeep uses a japanese transmission. How do you tell anymore what's American and what's not? :shrug:

Really, you can't tell. But for old timers I guess you would have to go with anything that originated in the US would be considered American, whether it is BS or not.

HemiEd
03-18-2005, 11:08 AM
Works for me. I guess its better that it creates more American jobs even if the corporate profits go back to Japan.

This thread hits on one of my hot buttons, I am in this industry. The public ignorance is a result of the Media IMO. Most Media types that I have known would call someone else to change a tire for them.

Not only do the corporate profits go back to Japan, most of these cars are built with Japanese or world parts. Most of these foreign car plants have their JIT program set up so that suppliers such as TOYO tires, Nippendenso etc. are located near them. These plants are very highly automated with Japanese machines, not too many American workers required.
The reason these cars are built here is primarily due to logistics.
The quality gap has closed between truly American cars and these foreign cars. The most recent numbers have shown that a Korean car actually has the best overall numbers. They European cars are still well behind.
Even if a certain American car plant is located in Mexico or Canada, it has a very high mix of parts made in the U.S. That is what creates most of the jobs.
Our economy is heavily based on the car manufacturing segment. Too many media types that do not even know how to do a brake job are telling us that our American cars are poor quality. That was true in the 70s and early 80s, not so anymore.

So the next time that Honda salesman tells you that the car was made in the good old USA, there is a little more to the story. We are selling out our future generation's manufacturing jobs. :cuss:

Hoover
03-18-2005, 11:26 AM
This thread hits on one of my hot buttons, I am in this industry. The public ignorance is a result of the Media IMO. Most Media types that I have known would call someone else to change a tire for them.

Not only do the corporate profits go back to Japan, most of these cars are built with Japanese or world parts. Most of these foreign car plants have their JIT program set up so that suppliers such as TOYO tires, Nippendenso etc. are located near them. These plants are very highly automated with Japanese machines, not too many American workers required.
The reason these cars are built here is primarily due to logistics.
The quality gap has closed between truly American cars and these foreign cars. The most recent numbers have shown that a Korean car actually has the best overall numbers. They European cars are still well behind.
Even if a certain American car plant is located in Mexico or Canada, it has a very high mix of parts made in the U.S. That is what creates most of the jobs.
Our economy is heavily based on the car manufacturing segment. Too many media types that do not even know how to do a brake job are telling us that our American cars are poor quality. That was true in the 70s and early 80s, not so anymore.

So the next time that Honda salesman tells you that the car was made in the good old USA, there is a little more to the story. We are selling out our future generation's manufacturing jobs. :cuss:
That is true but as a kid who worked for American Honda, they dod employ a lot of Americans. I worked in the warehouse division all four years that I was in College. The people who packed and shipped parts to dealers didn't have any higher than a high school education. The warehouse I worked at employed 250 fultime workers, 10 college kids who were Honda employees, nd 50 or so temps. Honda employees were paid well, about 40K a year for doing a job that was like mowing the lawn if you ask me. As a college employee I was paig 12 buck an hour.

While the Jap auto makers might ship in all of their parts, the do hire a lot of Americans, and just to be fair, GM and Ford moving to Mexico all do the same. Since Dodge is owned my a German Company I'm sure all of their profits don't stay in the US.

AeroSquid
03-18-2005, 11:34 AM
http://img39.exs.cx/img39/1064/imprezawrxstiblaforfra1bm.jpg

Mustang Killer with 4 doors. I want one sooo bad but I think i will settle for the non Sti WRX.

Saulbadguy
03-18-2005, 11:36 AM
Its pretty funny how every single car thread degenerates in to a Japanese vs America pissing match.

HemiEd
03-18-2005, 11:50 AM
Its pretty funny how every single car thread degenerates in to a Japanese vs America pissing match.


"Avalon.

Chryslers are pieces of shit."


The above quote may have triggered some of my pissing.

Saulbadguy
03-18-2005, 11:53 AM
"Avalon.

Chryslers are pieces of shit."


The above quote may have triggered some of my pissing.
Why? I didn't say "Avalon. Chryslers are pieces of shit because they are American."

If the choice was between a Chevy or a Chrysler, id still say Chryslers are pieces of shit.

stumppy
03-18-2005, 12:02 PM
Why? I didn't say "Avalon. Chryslers are pieces of shit because they are American."

If the choice was between a Chevy or a Chrysler, id still say Chryslers are pieces of shit.

Just curious, what do you base your opinion on ?

Saulbadguy
03-18-2005, 12:04 PM
Just curious, what do you base your opinion on ?
Personal experience, family experience, and my friends, who obviously know more about cars than I do.

HemiEd
03-18-2005, 12:13 PM
Why? I didn't say "Avalon. Chryslers are pieces of shit because they are American."

If the choice was between a Chevy or a Chrysler, id still say Chryslers are pieces of shit.

Sorry, if I misinterpreted what you are saying. I probably get too defensive about this since our manufacturing jobs are leaving this country so fast. I probably should not even have posted on this.
Actually though, for the last two years Chryslers' quality rating has been slightly ahead of GM and Ford. Why? I honestly do not know. The quality requirements that all car manufacturers put on their American supply chain is incredible. All three are well ahead of the European cars. The seperation is so small between the "big three" that it is barely measurable. IIRC the Japanese cars are only one to two percentage points better.

BigRedChief
03-18-2005, 12:13 PM
The last 2 cars that I bought I bought American because it helps provide jobs for Americans and they were what I wanted. My wife had to talk me into looking at Toyota this time. When I found out the Avalon was built and supplied in america the corporate ownership being Japenese didn't matter anymore.

You want to talk about the lost of good quality American jobs talk about tech jobs being offshored to India and Asia.

stumppy
03-18-2005, 12:15 PM
Personal experience, family experience, and my friends, who obviously know more about cars than I do.

Did anything in particular happen ? The reason I ask is when I was working at the dealership I found that 99% of the time when someone was not happy with there vehicle and tended to over generalize ( all Chryslers are crap) it was because of the repair facility they had been using instead of the car itself.

HemiEd
03-18-2005, 12:18 PM
You want to talk about the lost of good quality American jobs talk about tech jobs being offshored to India and Asia.


Absoluty, it is sickening. I recently received tech support from India and told them no thanks! Have someone from the U.S. call me and they did.

Saulbadguy
03-18-2005, 12:22 PM
Sorry, if I misinterpreted what you are saying. I probably get too defensive about this since our manufacturing jobs are leaving this country so fast. I probably should not even have posted on this.
Actually though, for the last two years Chryslers' quality rating has been slightly ahead of GM and Ford. Why? I honestly do not know. The quality requirements that all car manufacturers put on their American supply chain is incredible. All three are well ahead of the European cars. The seperation is so small between the "big three" that it is barely measurable. IIRC the Japanese cars are only one to two percentage points better.
Why do Japanese vehicles tend to hold their resale value better than American vehicles?

Saulbadguy
03-18-2005, 12:22 PM
Absoluty, it is sickening. I recently received tech support from India and told them no thanks! Have someone from the U.S. call me and they did.
I've received equally shitty service from Kentucky (Lexmark) as I have Dell (India). I don't see the difference, really.

Saulbadguy
03-18-2005, 12:24 PM
Did anything in particular happen ? The reason I ask is when I was working at the dealership I found that 99% of the time when someone was not happy with there vehicle and tended to over generalize ( all Chryslers are crap) it was because of the repair facility they had been using instead of the car itself.
My biggest complaint with Chryslers, and most recently Ford, is all the recalls. Recall after recall after recall. Usually something minor, but its an inconvience. Its probably not a big deal, but its just a personal preference.

HemiEd
03-18-2005, 12:30 PM
Why do Japanese vehicles tend to hold their resale value better than American vehicles?


Consumer loyalty drives resale value. Supply and demand. Back to the Media driven perception that I was talking about earlier IMO.

I really think Ford got it right on the new Mustang and that resale value should be incredible IMO.

BigRedChief
03-18-2005, 12:32 PM
Consumer loyalty drives resale value. Supply and demand. Back to the Media driven perception that I was talking about earlier IMO.

I really think Ford got it right on the new Mustang and that resale value should be incredible IMO.

I have test drove the new Mustang twice and heads were turning all around. Young, old. I think its going to have a high resale value also. It's not a lot for the 6 cyl. Leather, all the power and sport packages comes to about 22k.

stumppy
03-18-2005, 12:33 PM
My biggest complaint with Chryslers, and most recently Ford, is all the recalls. Recall after recall after recall. Usually something minor, but its an inconvience. Its probably not a big deal, but its just a personal preference.

I'd have to agree about the recalls, big pain in the ass. It does seem like GM, Ford, and Chrysler have more than the others. The biggest pain in the ass, joke of a recall there ever was was the rear hatch latch on the Chrysler mini vans back in the 90's.
Let's see here, if you broadside a minivan with a truck at 40 mph the rear hatch might pop open. Jeez, who woulda thunk ?

Hoover
03-18-2005, 12:37 PM
On resale Honda nad Toyota don't sell Fleet Cars which drives down resale on Tauras and Chevy Models.

Saulbadguy
03-18-2005, 12:46 PM
Consumer loyalty drives resale value. Supply and demand. Back to the Media driven perception that I was talking about earlier IMO.

I really think Ford got it right on the new Mustang and that resale value should be incredible IMO.
Yeah..that new mustang looks awfully tempting. Gotta wait till I turn 25 though..insurance would kill me. :banghead:

BigRedChief
03-18-2005, 12:48 PM
Yeah..that new mustang looks awfully tempting. Gotta wait till I turn 25 though..insurance would kill me. :banghead:

Well you know I couldn't find anyone to sell me their lower bowl season tickets so I might as well give that money to an insurance agent and drive in style.

Saulbadguy
03-18-2005, 12:55 PM
Well you know I couldn't find anyone to sell me their lower bowl season tickets so I might as well give that money to an insurance agent and drive in style.
Just out of curiousity, how much would you pay for say..4 tickets (plus rights) in the lower section?

BigRedChief
03-18-2005, 12:58 PM
Just out of curiousity, how much would you pay for say..4 tickets (plus rights) in the lower section?

I found one guy that wanted 4.5 k for just the rights to the tickets so I guess I wouldn't pay that much.

Rain Man
03-18-2005, 12:59 PM
I have test drove the new Mustang twice and heads were turning all around. Young, old. I think its going to have a high resale value also. It's not a lot for the 6 cyl. Leather, all the power and sport packages comes to about 22k.

Gitouddahere. Really? If it's a decent car in addition to the good looks, that's a good buy.

Saulbadguy
03-18-2005, 01:01 PM
I found one guy that wanted 4.5 k for just the rights to the tickets so I guess I wouldn't pay that much.
But you are buying a new car, that will depreciate that much once you drive it off the lot. :p

But 4.5k for rights to the lower sounds about right, depending on where they are at.

HemiEd
03-18-2005, 01:02 PM
Yeah..that new mustang looks awfully tempting. Gotta wait till I turn 25 though..insurance would kill me. :banghead:


One of the benifits that I have from being wrinkled is lower insurance rates. My only problem with the Mustang is that is needs 2 more doors and a softer ride. The Ford 500 is built right here in Chicago and will probably be my next purchase. If you would have told me that I would be switching to Ford from Chrysler prior to Daimlers aquisition I would have laughed.

morphius
03-18-2005, 01:08 PM
Consumer loyalty drives resale value. Supply and demand. Back to the Media driven perception that I was talking about earlier IMO.

I really think Ford got it right on the new Mustang and that resale value should be incredible IMO.
I don't think it is a media caused perception, I believe a lot of it is word of mouth. I don't think it has much to do with the repair center, its the fact that they have to go to the repair center.

But I also truly believe that it has absolutly nothing to with the people building the cars, but more with the designs/use of lesser quality parts.

Both Japanese cars and US cars create jobs in the US, talking about jobs in Mexico really doesn't do anything for me.

KChiefs1
03-18-2005, 01:15 PM
Avalon

BigRedChief
03-18-2005, 01:31 PM
But you are buying a new car, that will depreciate that much once you drive it off the lot. :p

But 4.5k for rights to the lower sounds about right, depending on where they are at.

April 2nd I'll see how far I will move down. Already paid for them this year so next year maybe I'll spend the 4.5k.

BigRedChief
03-18-2005, 01:41 PM
Gitouddahere. Really? If it's a decent car in addition to the good looks, that's a good buy.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. 30's / 40's before I even even seen one. Here's the one that I like:

http://www.dsford.com/themes/flm/notlocalized/images/inventory/2005/2005mustangV6.jpg

loaded. 22k

HemiEd
03-18-2005, 01:54 PM
I don't think it is a media caused perception, I believe a lot of it is word of mouth. I don't think it has much to do with the repair center, its the fact that they have to go to the repair center.

Here is my first search result: http://www.intellichoice.com/?Cobranding=AM
I get inundated with these kind of "ratings" all the time as I am sure most consumers are. The Chevy pickup is the lone representative.
But at least they show a picture of the new Mustang!

But I also truly believe that it has absolutly nothing to with the people building the cars, but more with the designs/use of lesser quality parts.

From what I have seen, automation and Quality controls have pretty much removed the discresionary imperfections that we used to see in cars.
Both Japanese cars and US cars create jobs in the US, talking about jobs in Mexico really doesn't do anything for me.
Some not so recent industry information stated that there were 5 support supplier jobs for every assembly line job at an American Auto manufacturer. I have no idea what the number is now but it must be well down from that.

BigRedChief
03-18-2005, 02:06 PM
Mustang links:
A neutral sites evaluation of the Mustang. Thanks to Phobia for the link to this site.:thumb:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=103665

The sites mustang page:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/ford/mustang/100379992/ratings_consumer.html

360 views of the Mustang:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mustang/

morphius
03-18-2005, 02:37 PM
Here is my first search result: http://www.intellichoice.com/?Cobranding=AM
I get inundated with these kind of "ratings" all the time as I am sure most consumers are. The Chevy pickup is the lone representative.
But at least they show a picture of the new Mustang!

Yes, but they don't pull the reliability numbers out of their butt's either, they get that data from somewhere.

BigRedChief
03-23-2005, 10:28 AM
Dang man I may have to hold out for this baby
Performance car icon Carroll Shelby and Ford Motor Co. will unveil the Ford Shelby Cobra GT500, the first Shelby Mustang in 35 years and the most powerful Mustang ever The 450-plus-horsepower, supercharged, six-speed roadster
http://i.cnn.net/money/popups/2005/autos/ny_autoshow/a.jpg
http://i.cnn.net/money/popups/2005/autos/ny_autoshow/c.jpg
http://i.cnn.net/money/popups/2005/autos/ny_autoshow/b.jpg

The article link:
http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/18/Autos/ford_shelby_gt500/index.htm?cnn=yes

Frazod
03-23-2005, 10:46 AM
I've had my Mustang for two weeks now (just like the picture in my avatar, only with a spoiler) and have already put over 2,000 miles on it. I couldn't be happier with it. I have the V6, which is fast as hell (can't even imagine what the GT must be like). It rides well, handles great, gets decent mileage for what it is (about 25 on the highway), and people drool over it everywhere I go, which never gets old.

Limitations - backseat comfortable only for midgets and not much trunk room. Not like anyone really has to be told this.

As for the rear wheel drive thing, WAAA. I don't know when RWD cars became evil, but I grew up driving the damned things and haven't put one in the ditch yet. If the roads are slick, throw a couple of bags of sand in the trunk and go on about your business - it ain't rocket science. You can get 4 wheel disc brakes with traction control (standard on V6 premium model).

I LOVE MY MUSTANG. If you get one, you'll love it, too.