PDA

View Full Version : Terry Shiaivo feeding tube has been removed


Pages : 1 [2]

dirk digler
03-22-2005, 02:22 PM
I do not need to mind any of them, everyone else already is. I am pointing out another professional opinion that you, as well as many others, are not minding.

I give this guy as much credibilty as I would give Michael's doctor's who said the opposite. These doctors are not representing Terri they are representing who hired them. It is just like in any trial where the prosecution brings in experts and the defense brings in experts and they basically rule each other out.

That is why I give the court appointed doctor opinion credence because he has no interest but Terri's IMO.

Lzen
03-22-2005, 02:23 PM
That is Terri's parents doctor. Of course Hannity would never put on the other doctor that Michael uses which says the opposite of this guy.

Also the court appointed doctor who has no interest in this case said she is in PVS and that her brain is liquid. But don't mind him either.

Edit - The court appointed doctor will be on tonight on Hannity and Colmes so I stand corrected.

HANNITY: You were nominated for a Nobel Prize (search) in medicine?

HAMMESFAHR: Yes.

HANNITY: In 1999? For your work...

HAMMESFAHR: ... in patients like Terri. For brain injury and stroke patients. We discovered how you get these people better, and we did it for 10 years with Medicare. We got evaluated by the state of Florida and we first discovered a technique that works in people like Terri.

HANNITY: This is what I want to talk about. You have spent, unlike Robert Wexler, who was commenting on medical issues this weekend, you spent how many hours with Terri?

HAMMESFAHR: I spent about 10 hours with Terri across three separate occasions, and I spent a lot of time with videotapes, the medical record which is in boxes and boxes and boxes. for about a year. And of course, you know, I spending time interviewing the family and people who actually have seen her. So I've spent a lot of time with her.

HANNITY: Do you believe she is aware, conscious and responsive?

HAMMESFAHR: Terri is completely aware and conscious and responsive. She is like a child with cerebral palsy. We have kids in the Pinellas County school system every day that are much worse than her, that we're educating.

HANNITY: Doctor, wait a minute. I've got to get this straight here.

You were nominated to get a Nobel Peace Prize in this very work. Are you saying that this woman could be rehabilitated?

HAMMESFAHR: Absolutely.

HANNITY: Could she talk one day?

HAMMESFAHR: Yes.

HANNITY: Then how is it possible we're in this position if you have examined her, you were up for a Nobel Prize. I -- this is mind boggling to me.

HAMMESFAHR: I don't understand it myself. You know, this is a -- this is a case of a terrible error that's happened and it's a grievous case.

You know, what struck me about Congress, in the last couple of days is that there we have physicians who examined the videotapes, examined the same evidence I had, examined my records, my evaluation of her, stepped forward and said, this is not a person in a coma. This is not a person in PVS (a persistent vegetative state). We have to stop this.....

.......HANNITY: ...and you're not paid?

HAMMESFAHR: I was not paid. Now, if you look at the people who are on Terri's side and stepped forward, at last count, two weeks ago, 33 M.D.s, brain injury specialists from around the country, places like UCLA, Tulane, LSU, Boston University --Thirty-three physicians has stepped forward to say that this person can be rehabilitated. She's not in PVS, not in a coma. And the -- Judge Greer ignored this.

dirk digler
03-22-2005, 02:24 PM
When was Michael awarded gaurdianship?

IIRC wasn't it when they started to go to court about all this a long time ago? I could be wrong but Michael does have the final say and I don't remember if that is Flordia law or if he was awarded. I will have to check.

dirk digler
03-22-2005, 02:27 PM
I understand and read what he said I just don't give him any credibility and I don't give any credibilty to Michael's doctors either.

Raiderhader
03-22-2005, 02:28 PM
I give this guy as much credibilty as I would give Michael's doctor's who said the opposite. These doctors are not representing Terri they are representing who hired them. It is just like in any trial where the prosecution brings in experts and the defense brings in experts and they basically rule each other out.

That is why I give the court appointed doctor opinion credence because he has no interest but Terri's IMO.


He claims he was not paid. Your next argument?

dirk digler
03-22-2005, 02:34 PM
He claims he was not paid. Your next argument?

I don't care if he was paid or not he is representing Terri's parents and their wishes. I don't know what is so hard to understand do you believe Michael doctor's opinion then? What about the court appointed doctor? Is he full of it too.

Also I stand corrected on the guardianship issue. Michael is her surrogate.

Terri Schiavo Moved Back to Hospice; Legal Guardian to be Appointed

CLEARWATER, October 23, 2003 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Terri Schiavo was moved back to the Woodside hospice after her feeding tube was reinserted at Morton Plant Hospital Wednesday. The court has also agreed to appoint a guardian at litem for Terri, but the guardian would only oversee legal matters, with decisions as to Terri's care still to be made by her estranged husband Michael Schiavo, who is seeking her death.

Since Michael is regarded as the surrogate for Terri, Florida law prohibits hospital officials from communicating Terri's condition or whereabouts to her parents. As such, her parents were distraught for some time yesterday not knowing what had happened to their daughter, after they discovered she was no longer at the hospital.

Raiderhader
03-22-2005, 02:46 PM
I don't care if he was paid or not he is representing Terri's parents and their wishes.

Then you should not be so loose with the terminology "hired". And if he is not being compensated for his opinion, why would he care if his opinion flew in the face of what the family wants to hear?

I don't know what is so hard to understand do you believe Michael doctor's opinion then? What about the court appointed doctor? Is he full of it too.

Since there is controversy, should we not try and get to the truth beofore possibly ending an innocent life?

Also I stand corrected on the guardianship issue. Michael is her surrogate.

Terri Schiavo Moved Back to Hospice; Legal Guardian to be Appointed

CLEARWATER, October 23, 2003 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Terri Schiavo was moved back to the Woodside hospice after her feeding tube was reinserted at Morton Plant Hospital Wednesday. The court has also agreed to appoint a guardian at litem for Terri, but the guardian would only oversee legal matters, with decisions as to Terri's care still to be made by her estranged husband Michael Schiavo, who is seeking her death.

Since Michael is regarded as the surrogate for Terri, Florida law prohibits hospital officials from communicating Terri's condition or whereabouts to her parents. As such, her parents were distraught for some time yesterday not knowing what had happened to their daughter, after they discovered she was no longer at the hospital.

Well, that clears that up, I guess.....

dirk digler
03-22-2005, 02:52 PM
Then you should not be so loose with the terminology "hired". And if he is not being compensated for his opinion, why would he care if his opinion flew in the face of what the family wants to hear?



Since there is controversy, should we not try and get to the truth beofore possibly ending an innocent life?



Well, that clears that up, I guess.....

Because he represents them I suppose. Like I said before any of the doctors representing either side I don't give any credibilty too. The only one I care about is the court appointed doctor who has no vested interest other than Terri and he said she was PVS and her brain was liquid.

I totally agree on your second point. But we don't want or need Congress to get involved in this.

Raiderhader
03-22-2005, 03:05 PM
Because he represents them I suppose.

You suppose? So you have no credible evidence of this?

Like I said before any of the doctors representing either side I don't give any credibilty too. The only one I care about is the court appointed doctor who has no vested interest other than Terri and he said she was PVS and her brain was liquid.

As is being discussed in another thread, who is to say that the court appointed doc is not influenced by personal beliefs, philosophy, ect.?

I totally agree on your second point. But we don't want or need Congress to get involved in this.

That is your take. For far too long we have allowed the judiciary to act as the final authority in this country. I for one am happy to see Congress has remembered that they have the power to check and balance that branch.

dirk digler
03-22-2005, 03:40 PM
You suppose? So you have no credible evidence of this?

No and no one else has any credible evidence that Michaels Doctors aren't reliable as well.



As is being discussed in another thread, who is to say that the court appointed doc is not influenced by personal beliefs, philosophy, ect.?

IMO he is the only one that is looking out for Terri the other doctors are looking out for their clients.


That is your take. For far too long we have allowed the judiciary to act as the final authority in this country. I for one am happy to see Congress has remembered that they have the power to check and balance that branch.

I agree that the judicial arm needs to be checked but IMO the Congress needs to stay out of personal family affair.

dirk digler
03-22-2005, 04:22 PM
On a side note I do not know what to believe in regards to Michael guardenship.

From an article today on cnn.com

An uphill legal battle?

Doctors have said Schiavo could live for one to two weeks without a feeding tube.

Her parents are facing an uphill battle. Repeated court rulings have held that Michael Schiavo is his wife's legal guardian and has the right to make decisions regarding her care.

KCWolfman
03-22-2005, 05:09 PM
I give this guy as much credibilty as I would give Michael's doctor's who said the opposite. These doctors are not representing Terri they are representing who hired them. It is just like in any trial where the prosecution brings in experts and the defense brings in experts and they basically rule each other out.

That is why I give the court appointed doctor opinion credence because he has no interest but Terri's IMO.
Not true. One of the two physicians hired by the court is leading legislation to allow euthanasia and mercy killing. If the court wanted someone unbiased, they definitely screwed up.

dirk digler
03-22-2005, 06:12 PM
Not true. One of the two physicians hired by the court is leading legislation to allow euthanasia and mercy killing. If the court wanted someone unbiased, they definitely screwed up.

I thought there was only 1? IIRC there was 2 doctors from the Parents and 2 doctors for Michael and 1 court appointed. They were talking about it last night that 3 out the 5 doctors said she was PVS.

DanT
03-22-2005, 06:16 PM
National Review Online conducted the following interview recently:
http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/george200503211140.asp
March 21, 2005, 11:40 a.m.
“Always to Care, Never to Kill”
Terri Schiavo and the right to life.

Q&A by NRO Staff

National Review Online recently had a chance to talk to Robert P. George, the McCormick professor of jurisprudence at Princeton University and a member of the President's Council on Bioethics, about the Terri Schiavo case and the broader issue of assisted suicide. Professor George has published widely on law, ethics, and philosophy in books, scholarly journals, and, too rarely, in articles for NRO. He previously served as a presidential appointee to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights.

National Review Online: How should we go about thinking about the circumstances under which it is morally permissible to refuse medical treatment? What principles ought to guide us?

Robert P. George: From a moral vantage point, it can be, though it will not always be, permissible to decline treatment — even potentially life-saving treatment — when one's reason for declining the treatment is something other than the belief that one's life, or the life of the person for whom one is making a decision, lacks sufficient value to be worth living. What we must avoid, always and everywhere, is yielding to the temptation to regard some human lives, or the lives of human beings in certain conditions, as lebensunwerten Lebens, lives unworthy of life. Since the life of every human being has inherent worth and dignity, there is no valid category of lebensunwerten Lebens. Any society that supposes that there is such a category has deeply morally compromised itself. As Leon Kass recently reminded us in a powerful address at the Holocaust Museum, it was supposedly enlightened and progressive German academics and medical people who put their nation on the road to shame more than a decade before the Nazis rose to power by promoting a doctrine of eugenics based precisely on the proposition that the lives of some human beings — such as the severely retarded — are unworthy of life.

NRO: Just to provide greater clarity to the principle, could you explain how it applies to the cases of the killing of enemy combatants in wartime and of the death penalty?

George: Sure. Killing in war — assuming that it is not a genocidal war — is not done on the ground that enemy soldiers have lives unworthy of life. Where a war is just, the killing of combatants on the field of battle is done in self-defense or in the defense of innocent third parties who are victims, or potential victims, of an unjust aggressor. Even where a war is unjust, the reason for killing is typically something like expanding a nation's borders, gaining wealth, or avenging a perceived historical wrong. The exception again is a genocidal war, where members of certain groups are targeted for extermination because their enemies regard them as unfit to live. The Nazis killed — murdered — thousands of handicapped people and millions of Jews precisely because they regarded them as unfit to live. German soldiers — some of whom were Nazis, some of whom weren't — killed hundreds of thousands of British and American soldiers in battle, not because they regarded them as lebensunwerten Lebens, but in the cause of territorial expansion and world domination.

Now let's consider the death penalty. Its supporters typically do not claim that the death-row inmate has a life unworthy of life. That isn't their justification for capital punishment. Their claim, rather, is that the individual convicted of a capital murder should be executed because that is what justice requires as payment for his heinous crime. Their justification for the death penalty is retributive. (Of course, they may also believe that the application of the death penalty will prevent the murderer in question from repeating his crimes and perhaps also deter others.) They may fully recognize the inherent dignity and value of every human life, including the life of the murderer himself, yet believe that by wantonly taking the life of another human being the murderer has forfeited his own right to life. Some supporters of the application of the death penalty in the case of Karla Faye Tucker acknowledged that she had repented of her crime and reformed herself. They certainly did not regard her as unfit to live. Indeed, they believed that, if spared, she would probably devote her life to good causes. Yet they believed that retributive justice demanded her execution.

Of course, opponents of the death penalty, such as the pope, say that a due respect for the inherent worth and dignity of every human life, including the life of a murderer, forbids the death penalty except in circumstances in which it is the only way to prevent a particular murder from killing yet again. But the dispute between its supporters (in most cases) and opponents is about the moral implications of the principle that human worth and dignity are inherent. It is not a dispute about whether the principle is valid and ought to govern our deliberation about when, if ever, killing is morally permissible.

NRO: To what extent do these principles depend on sectarian religious belief?

George: Not at all. At the same time, they are in harmony with the teachings of the Jewish and Christian traditions. These traditions proclaim the inherent worth and dignity of every human being as a creature made in the very image of God — imago dei. In our own culture, the Catholic Church has played a leading, albeit far from exclusive, role in defending these principles when they have come under attack by proponents of abortion and euthanasia. But the Church herself has not put these ideas forward as matters of special revelation. The Church's own teaching is that they are matters of natural law that all people of good will can understand and for which every mature individual in possession of his faculties can be held responsible. They're knowable by the light or reason and conscience even apart from the teaching of the Bible or the magisterium of the Church.

NRO: What's the role for public authority in enforcing these norms?

George: First, it is to ensure that no laws are premised on the proposition that some lives are lebensunwerten Leben. And not only must public authorities refrain from acting on any such premise, they should protect people from being victimized by other individuals, or by institutions, who would treat some lives as unworthy of life.

The police always have the right and, where it is within their power, the duty to prevent suicide — except now in Oregon under certain circumstances. Even where attempted suicide is not punished as a crime, it is decriminalized rather than, strictly speaking, legalized. It is not given the status of a legal right, except again in Oregon. When the police find a guy perched at the edge of a bridge getting ready to jump, their job is to stop him and prevent him from going through with it if they can. They are not merely supposed to try to ascertain whether he has carefully thought things through and made a rational decision to do away with himself, or if he's in a fit mental state to decide. They are supposed to prevent the suicide because the law refuses to honor even a person's own judgment that his is a life unworthy of life.

NRO: Back to the question of declining medical care —

George: We know of course that there are lots of legitimate reasons for declining medical care. Often it's burdensome in nature; often it interferes with other opportunities that one might have, the opportunity for example to spend the remaining time one has, even if it will be shorter, in the embrace of one's family in the home rather than in an institution; sometimes it's the daunting expense that is involved. These can be morally legitimate reasons for declining medical care even where treatment could extend life a bit. But at the same time, we know that our decision as a society to recognize a right to refuse treatment, though it is the morally and prudentially correct decision in my view, will open certain limited opportunities for abuse. There will be circumstances in which people who want to do away with themselves will be able to accomplish the goal by exercising the right to decline life-saving medical care. And there will, alas, be circumstances in which some people, exercising so-called substituted judgment, make unjustified "choices for death" — to use the language of euthanasia advocate Ronald Dworkin — of people for whom they are supposed to be caring.

It is important to see, however, that the law does not validate such choices. It treats abuses as unfortunate but unavoidable side-effects that must be tolerated and cannot prudently be eliminated without sacrificing important values and objectives. There is nothing odd about this. In many areas of law, possible abuses must be tolerated as side effects of honoring important values. We know, for example, that some criminals and their attorneys will abuse the procedural protections that our society affords to persons accused of crimes to escape just punishment. Yet we rightly consider certain protections to be essential to the system of justice.

Now this, by the way, the Supreme Court actually managed to recognize in the assisted-suicide cases, when the justices unanimously rejected a right to assisted suicide while at the same time accepting the traditional common-law understanding that people have a right to decline even potentially life saving medical treatments. What the Court said is you can't deny people pain-killing narcotics even if a side-effect of the pain-killing narcotics is the shortening of life. That's entirely consistent with the moral norms I am explaining and defending, and which the Judaeo-Christian tradition endorses.

NRO: As you know, there's some question about what Terri Schiavo's wishes were or would be now. How much should turn on this question?

George: It is the wrong question. It is pointless to ask whether Terri Schiavo had somehow formed a conditional intention to have herself starved to death if eventually she found herself in a brain-damaged condition. What's really going on here — and I don't think we can afford to kid ourselves about this — is that Terri's husband has decided that hers is a life not worth having. In his opinion, her continued existence is nothing but a burden — a burden to herself, to him, to society. He has presumed to decide that his wife is better off dead.

Even if we were to credit Michael Schiavo's account of his conversation with Terri before her injury — which I am not inclined to do — it is a mistake to assume that people can make decisions in advance about whether to have themselves starved to death if they eventually find themselves disabled. That's why living wills have proven to be so often unreliable. One does not know how one will actually feel, or how one will feel about one's life and the prospect of death, or whether one will retain a desire to live despite a mental or physical disability, when one is not actually in that condition and when one is envisaging it from the perspective of more or less robust health.

Consider the case of a beautiful young woman — an actress or fashion model perhaps — who is severely burned in a fire. Prior to actually finding herself in such a condition, she might have supposed — and even said, if the subject had come up in a conversation — that she would rather be dead than live with her face grotesquely disfigured. But no one would be surprised if in the actual event she did not try to kill herself by starvation or some other means, and did not want to die.

In any event, it is clear that the only reason for Michael Schiavo's decision is that he considers Terri's quality of life to be so poor that he wants her to be dead. He claims that she would want that too, which I don't grant, but even if he's right about that, we should treat her like anyone else who wants to commit suicide. We rescue, we care. We affirm the inherent value of the life of every human being. Our governing principle should be always to care, never to kill.

NRO: What are the proper limits of the federal government's authority here?

George: I don't see that any just authority of the state of Florida is being displaced by the effort of Congress to ensure that Terri's right to life is honored and that civil rights claims on her behalf are given a hearing in the federal courts. By "just authority of the state of Florida," I mean the authority of the people of Florida to make laws through their elected representatives, subject to the provisions of the state constitution and the Constitution of the United States. I am not impressed by appeals to "federalism" to protect the decisions of state court judges who usurp the authority of democratically constituted state legislative bodies by interpreting statutes beyond recognition or by invalidating state laws or the actions of state officials in the absence of any remotely plausible argument rooted in the text, logic, structure, or historical understanding of the state or federal constitution. The fact is that, under color of law, Michael Schiavo is seeking to deprive Terri of sustenance because of her disability. Under federal civil-rights statutes, this raises a substantial issue. It cannot be waved away by invoking states' rights.

The federalism argument is more plausible in the case of Oregon's assisted-suicide law than it is in Terri Schiavo's case. It wasn't some judge in Oregon who manufactured a right to assisted suicide or claimed to find it hiding in a penumbra. I think the people of Oregon made an unwise, indeed, tragic, decision, but it was a decision made by the democratically constituted people of Oregon. Whether or not there are legitimate grounds for the federal government to override that decision, the federalism argument for not overriding it is far weightier and more serious than it is when trotted out as a reason to keep Congress from acting to prevent Terri Schiavo's being starved to death at the command of her husband.

The other thing that Congress is being accused of is interfering in a family decision. Now look: Terri Schiavo has been abandoned by her husband. Michael Schiavo took a vow to be faithful to Terri "in sickness and in health, forsaking all others, 'til death do us part." But he has not been faithful; he has not forsaken all others. He has set himself up in a marriage in all-but-name with someone else, a woman with whom he already has two children. He has disrespected Terri and, indeed, forsaken her. Now he is seeking to bring about her death by starvation. Notice something wrong with this picture? Terri's parents and siblings, by contrast, have never abandoned her. They are prepared to shoulder all the burdens, including the financial burdens, of caring for her. They want to provide the therapy that many medical people who have observed Terri, whether at the bedside or by videotape, believe can help her. No one expects a full recovery, but it may be possible for her to make genuine progress. That possibility will be foreclosed, however, if she is killed by deliberate starvation before it can begin.

KCWolfman
03-22-2005, 06:18 PM
I thought there was only 1? IIRC there was 2 doctors from the Parents and 2 doctors for Michael and 1 court appointed. They were talking about it last night that 3 out the 5 doctors said she was PVS.
Which time?

The courts have appointed two physicians over the years.

Raiderhader
03-23-2005, 09:07 AM
No and no one else has any credible evidence that Michaels Doctors aren't reliable as well.

And I NEVER stated that they were not so. I have not said that they are wrong and the other doctors are right. The only thing I have said is that we have conflicting opinions on this matter, and as long as there are experts in the field who believe the woman can be rehabilitated, she and her family should have that opportunity just in case.

I had no intention of questioning the motives of the doctors, that was brought up by someone on the other side who is keen on seeing the woman die.

IMO he is the only one that is looking out for Terri the other doctors are looking out for their clients.

Again, what is the reason for Dr. Hammesfahr to say what the parents want and not the truth if he is not being paid? Did you actually read the transcript of the interview?


I agree that the judicial arm needs to be checked but IMO the Congress needs to stay out of personal family affair.

How did intervene in a personal family affair? They asked a federal court to take another look at the case. No more, no less. Let us not make this out to be more than it is.

The Pedestrian
03-24-2005, 01:18 PM
Alright, so it's the seventh day without food or water for Schiavo...IIRC, death should be extraordinarily close by now, which is why I would be suspicious with this happening so close to Easter. If she dies tomorrow (Good Friday), we should probably start praying more than ever before until Sunday. This could be Jesus' way of coming back...assuming the bible is telling the truth.

|Zach|
03-24-2005, 01:20 PM
This could be Jesus' way of coming back...
Are you serious.

The Pedestrian
03-24-2005, 01:26 PM
Are you serious.

No, not serious...just overly paranoid.