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Kerberos
03-20-2005, 08:00 AM
Found this on the Star this morning ... Wonder if CP and DV will get thier wish ???


Pass-defense rules go too far, Chiefs say

Team suggests changes to NFL that it thinks would level playing field

By ADAM TEICHER

The Kansas City Star

The NFL got what it wanted last year when it emphasized the enforcement of rules regarding downfield contact in the passing game.

Offenses became hot again. Scoring was up. Yards were accumulated. Many people were smiling.

“The points of emphasis, in our opinion, worked well,” said Atlanta general manager Rich McKay, the co-chairman of the NFL's competition committee.

Not everyone agreed with McKay, and Chiefs president/general manager Carl Peterson was one. Peterson saw defenders being rendered at times helpless by the rules enforcement.

When defenses weren't being penalized for illegal contact beyond the 5-yard limit — those penalties were up almost 250 percent from 2003 — they permitted receivers wide berths to avoid the seemingly inevitable yellow flag from the officials.

So Peterson and the Chiefs are sponsoring a pair of proposals at this week's NFL meetings in Hawaii that would modify the passing rules and, they say, help put defenses back on equal footing.

One would keep illegal defensive contact as a 5-yard penalty but not an automatic first down, as it currently is. Another would institute the college rule for pass interference and make it a 15-yard penalty unless it's deemed flagrant. It would then be a spot foul.

Defensive pass interference penalties would also be spot fouls if they were committed within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage.

“The emphasis was for a good reason,” Peterson said. “But the pendulum sometimes swings too far. We've got to bring it back and get it somewhere in the middle.”

Peterson's proposals have the support of Chiefs coach Dick Vermeil.

“You've got to give the defense some advantage or some opportunity to play,” Vermeil said. “We're paying those guys a lot of money.”

They might not get their way. The proposal to modify the pass-interference penalty has been put forth in previous years and failed.

The opinion of McKay's committee carries plenty of sway in the voting. He wouldn't reveal its recommendation on Peterson's proposal but said the committee doesn't believe the passing rules are weighted too heavily in favor of the offense.

“We don't feel (that), but we do hope that the conduct, meaning the actual illegal contact, we clearly want to see that come down,” McKay said. “The feeling was, when you watch the tape as the year went on, people got more comfortable as to how it was going to be called that they adjusted their play. Our hope is that this year that adjustment continues when we re-emphasize it and show it on tape to all the players and all the coaches.

“I thought the coaches did an outstanding job of understanding, as the year went on, what the foul was. I just hope now that we're, again, able to modify the conduct so the number of fouls comes down. That's a lot of fouls. We'd like that number to come down. Our hope is it comes down based on conduct, not based on us officiating it differently this year.”

In Peterson's view, the awarding of a first down on a pass interference penalty well short of the necessary yardage is too harsh.

But opponents fear that changing the rule would be an invitation to defenses to play overly aggressive in long-yardage situations. The cost would only be 5 yards and not a fresh set of downs, too.

For the Chiefs, with the league's worst passing defense last year, to sponsor such proposals looks self-serving: If the players can't do the job, let the rules do it for them.

But there's also a flip side.

“We're possibly shooting ourselves in the foot, too,” Peterson said. “We're a passing team.”

To reach Adam Teicher, Chiefs reporter

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/football/nfl/kansas_city_chiefs/11181978.htm


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milkman
03-20-2005, 08:09 AM
As for the spot foul on PI, while I like the college rule, there is merit to making the penalty harsher if the refs deem that the contact was flagrant.

The only problem with that, however, is that I don't want the morons that pass for refs in the NFL given another judgement call to make.

RNR
03-20-2005, 08:09 AM
I would love to see the rules changed, however all the way back to 1978 they have been handcuffing the defense. I am waiting for the NFL to make a rule that only eight men are allowed on defense or a five seconds before you rush the QB rule installed. Look for Arena football scores as that seems to be what the NFL wants.

milkman
03-20-2005, 08:13 AM
I think I would have proposed to make the D holding call a 10 yard penalty instead of 5, without the automatic 1st down.

milkman
03-20-2005, 08:16 AM
I would love to see the rules changed, however all the way back to 1978 they have been handcuffing the defense. I am waiting for the NFL to make a rule that only eight men are allowed on defense or a five seconds before you rush the QB rule installed. Look for Arena football scores as that seems to be what the NFL wants.

No doubt.
Defenses are being neutered.

By the next generation of fans the league will become the National Flag Football League.

Dammit Carl.......I mean Tags, give me back my D!

Bowser
03-20-2005, 08:18 AM
Get some real players in your secondary, Carl. You don't need to punish the rest of the league because you took William Bartee with a second round pick, and then chose to re-sign him.

milkman
03-20-2005, 08:21 AM
Get some real players in your secondary, Carl. You don't need to punish the rest of the league because you took William Bartee with a second round pick, and then chose to re-sign him.

I know it appears that way, and could very well be.
But I don't like the direction the game is going.
We need to put some D back into the game.

RNR
03-20-2005, 08:23 AM
Get some real players in your secondary, Carl. You don't need to punish the rest of the league because you took William Bartee with a second round pick, and then chose to re-sign him.
Far be it me to defend Carl, but with the rules no db will have a impact. Look at Champ Baily, he was burned like a match and still made the probowl. Did he all of the sudden become a average player? He struggled and was voted to the probowl because everyone knows the deck is stacked.

Bowser
03-20-2005, 08:26 AM
I know it appears that way, and could very well be.
But I don't like the direction the game is going.
We need to put some D back into the game.

I could see Carl going the other way if we had an offense with a QB that averaged around 2400 yards passing a season. He has had an average to sucky defense the last six years, and he's trying to help them out any way he can. I will say that I like the idea of illegal contact not being an automatic first down, though.

milkman
03-20-2005, 08:35 AM
I could see Carl going the other way if we had an offense with a QB that averaged around 2400 yards passing a season. He has had an average to sucky defense the last six years, and he's trying to help them out any way he can. I will say that I like the idea of illegal contact not being an automatic first down, though.

Regardless of the motive, I'm just happy that someone has at least addressed these rules.

The pendulum has swung to far to the offensive side.

donkhater
03-20-2005, 08:45 AM
I'd like to see it called fairly for all teams. Last year, at times, it seemed that refs were giving good defenses(or defenses with good reputations) the benefit of the doubt with illegal contact, but for teams like KC or Indy or Minn, the pass plays were called pretty tight.

It got to the point I couldn't celebrate a good defensive play last year, until some time went by before the announcer would say,"But there is a flag on the play". And it ended up being some ticky tack call.

htismaqe
03-20-2005, 08:57 AM
This has nothing to do with the Chiefs lack of defense.

It's about fixing something that is broken.

I've thought for 10 years that the NFL PI rule should be like the college PI rule...

bricks
03-20-2005, 09:06 AM
This has nothing to do with the Chiefs lack of defense.

It's about fixing something that is broken.

I've thought for 10 years that the NFL PI rule should be like the college PI rule...

Curious, can you please explain how they go abouts in calling the college PI rule? Just Curious.

dirk digler
03-20-2005, 09:06 AM
This has nothing to do with the Chiefs lack of defense.

It's about fixing something that is broken.

I've thought for 10 years that the NFL PI rule should be like the college PI rule...

Why? Just imagine in a big game the QB throws a 50 yd bomb and the CB is beat so he just tackles the WR and only gets a 15yd penalty. That is not a good situation to have. I understand that the Chiefs want to have a flagrant PI as well I just think that the refs have a enough to worry about let alone making a judgement call on something like that. Just IMO.

htismaqe
03-20-2005, 09:08 AM
Curious, can you please explain how they go abouts in calling the college PI rule? Just Curious.

In college, pass interference is a 15-yard penalty plus automatic first down, rather than a spot foul.

htismaqe
03-20-2005, 09:10 AM
Why? Just imagine in a big game the QB throws a 50 yd bomb and the CB is beat so he just tackles the WR and only gets a 15yd penalty. That is not a good situation to have. I understand that the Chiefs want to have a flagrant PI as well I just think that the refs have a enough to worry about let alone making a judgement call on something like that. Just IMO.

It's better than having the CB get his feet tangled with the WR and giving the WR a gift of 50+ yards...

I'd much rather have the CB flagrantly tackle a WR, than a WR FLAGRANTLY FAKE being touched in order to get 40 yards they don't deserve...

suds79
03-20-2005, 09:10 AM
I do like this idea.

Everybody agrees that defensive secondary players are at a disadvantage and that's wrong.

I agree that the illegal contact rule is too harsh. 5 yards is one thing but an automatic 1st down is another. That has to change.

As far as the PI rule. I think the college rule is better but if they just keep the NFL PI rule the same, fine.

But illegal contact has got to change.

Bowser
03-20-2005, 09:12 AM
It's better than having the CB get his feet tangled with the WR and giving the WR a gift of 50+ yards...

I'd much rather have the CB flagrantly tackle a WR, than a WR FLAGRANTLY FAKE being touched in order to get 40 yards they don't deserve...

Ed McCafferey says you don't know what you're talking about..........

whoman69
03-20-2005, 09:13 AM
Football was already the most popular sport in America. Why did they have to go the route of every other sport and shoot for more scoring? I am tired of seeing 310 foot homers in baseball, 350 yard drives on every hole, and now football without hitting. Perhaps next they'll come up with a rule that WRs should wear special colored jerseys like the QBs have for practice, make them say pink. Have them wear dresses too. Its no surprise that WRs are having a field day. They are given all the rules and higher visibility than CBs. All the best athletes are going to receiver instead of CB. What happened to the days when it was better to get the big hit? The way the rules are now, defensive coordinators are going to have to figure other ways to get to the QB because the rules don't allow coverage. When QBs start going down to injuries because of 8-9 man blitzes, the NFL is going to be wondering WTF happened? When Dan Marino's career records are being equalled by Peyton Manning within 5 years and destroyed beyond all recognition, the NFL will pat itself on the bat oblivious to the fact that the records are inconsequential.

dirk digler
03-20-2005, 09:14 AM
It's better than having the CB get his feet tangled with the WR and giving the WR a gift of 50+ yards...

I'd much rather have the CB flagrantly tackle a WR, than a WR FLAGRANTLY FAKE being touched in order to get 40 yards they don't deserve...

I understand but you are giving the D open season to just tackle WR's. If the college Rule passed you would no longer see the long TD's passes they would become extinct.

Also they hardly ever call PI when feet get tangled they have that down pretty good on the other example I agree.

I also think that the D holding and illegal contact rules need to changed. They need to be 10 yd penalties with no automatic first down.

htismaqe
03-20-2005, 09:15 AM
Football was already the most popular sport in America. Why did they have to go the route of every other sport and shoot for more scoring? I am tired of seeing 310 foot homers in baseball, 350 yard drives on every hole, and now football without hitting. Perhaps next they'll come up with a rule that WRs should wear special colored jerseys like the QBs have for practice, make them say pink. Have them wear dresses too. Its no surprise that WRs are having a field day. They are given all the rules and higher visibility than CBs. All the best athletes are going to receiver instead of CB. What happened to the days when it was better to get the big hit? The way the rules are now, defensive coordinators are going to have to figure other ways to get to the QB because the rules don't allow coverage. When QBs start going down to injuries because of 8-9 man blitzes, the NFL is going to be wondering WTF happened? When Dan Marino's career records are being equalled by Peyton Manning within 5 years and destroyed beyond all recognition, the NFL will pat itself on the bat oblivious to the fact that the records are inconsequential.

:bravo:

milkman
03-20-2005, 09:15 AM
Football was already the most popular sport in America. Why did they have to go the route of every other sport and shoot for more scoring? I am tired of seeing 310 foot homers in baseball, 350 yard drives on every hole, and now football without hitting. Perhaps next they'll come up with a rule that WRs should wear special colored jerseys like the QBs have for practice, make them say pink. Have them wear dresses too. Its no surprise that WRs are having a field day. They are given all the rules and higher visibility than CBs. All the best athletes are going to receiver instead of CB. What happened to the days when it was better to get the big hit? The way the rules are now, defensive coordinators are going to have to figure other ways to get to the QB because the rules don't allow coverage. When QBs start going down to injuries because of 8-9 man blitzes, the NFL is going to be wondering WTF happened? When Dan Marino's career records are being equalled by Peyton Manning within 5 years and destroyed beyond all recognition, the NFL will pat itself on the bat oblivious to the fact that the records are inconsequential.

Great post.
I agree with everything you said.

htismaqe
03-20-2005, 09:16 AM
I understand but you are giving the D open season to just tackle WR's. If the college Rule passed you would no longer see the long TD's passes they would become extinct.

Also they hardly ever call PI when feet get tangled they have that down pretty good on the other example I agree.

The "extinction" argument is bogus.

College has a 15-yard PI rule and long TD passes happen ALL THE TIME.

bricks
03-20-2005, 09:16 AM
In college, pass interference is a 15-yard penalty plus automatic first down, rather than a spot foul.

Thank you. Um...just to make sure I'm following you correctly, I don't really follow college football that much, so, does that mean the pass interference anwhere on the field? Like for example, lets say the QB throws a 50yd bomb to his WR, and, the CB from the opposing team knocks him down. Ok, that's considered pass interference, so, that would only be a 15 yard penalty, instead of 50, correct?

dirk digler
03-20-2005, 09:19 AM
The "extinction" argument is bogus.

College has a 15-yard PI rule and long TD passes happen ALL THE TIME.

Because the athletes vary from college to college. In the NFL they are pretty much equal.

If I was a D-coordinator I would tell my players if the WR gets behind you just tackle him. You won't give up the TD and you live to fight another down. The difference could be huge they could hold a team to FG instead of TD.

That is why the Chiefs are proposing a flagrant PI because they know what would happen if it was just a 15yd penalty and automatic First Down.

dirk digler
03-20-2005, 09:19 AM
Thank you. Um...just to make sure I'm following you correctly, I don't really follow college football that much, so, does that mean the pass interference anwhere on the field? Like for example, lets say the QB throws a 50yd bomb to his WR, and, the CB from the opposing team knocks him down. Ok, that's considered pass interference, so, that would only be a 15 yard penalty, instead of 50, correct?

Yep.

milkman
03-20-2005, 09:22 AM
Because the athletes vary from college to college. In the NFL they are pretty much equal.

If I was a D-coordinator I would tell my players if the WR gets behind you just tackle him. You won't give up the TD and you live to fight another down. The difference could be huge they could hold a team to FG instead of TD.

That would clearly be flagrant, which would make it a spot foul.

dirk digler
03-20-2005, 09:22 AM
That would clearly be flagrant, which would make it a spot foul.

Not with the college rules it wouldn't.

bricks
03-20-2005, 09:24 AM
I do like this idea.

Everybody agrees that defensive secondary players are at a disadvantage and that's wrong.

I agree that the illegal contact rule is too harsh. 5 yards is one thing but an automatic 1st down is another. That has to change.

As far as the PI rule. I think the college rule is better but if they just keep the NFL PI rule the same, fine.

But illegal contact has got to change.

Absolutely. I concur. Something has to be done to change that rule. On the other hand, I think Carl needs some support from other teams with good pass defenses. Teicher is right, and I agree with him. The Chiefs have the 31 ranked pass defense, and that really doesn't look good when your the President, GM of a franchise complaining to the FO of the NFL about illegal contact rules.

milkman
03-20-2005, 09:25 AM
Not with the college rules it wouldn't.

But the rule change proposal is the college rule, but with flagrant PIs getting the spot.

dirk digler
03-20-2005, 09:26 AM
But the rule change proposal is the college rule, but with flagrant PIs getting the spot.

I understand but Parker is saying he wants just the college rule which I disagree with him about.

milkman
03-20-2005, 09:29 AM
I also think that the D holding and illegal contact rules need to changed. They need to be 10 yd penalties with no automatic first down.

Great minds think alike.
See post #4.

bricks
03-20-2005, 09:30 AM
Football was already the most popular sport in America. Why did they have to go the route of every other sport and shoot for more scoring? I am tired of seeing 310 foot homers in baseball, 350 yard drives on every hole, and now football without hitting. Perhaps next they'll come up with a rule that WRs should wear special colored jerseys like the QBs have for practice, make them say pink. Have them wear dresses too. Its no surprise that WRs are having a field day. They are given all the rules and higher visibility than CBs. All the best athletes are going to receiver instead of CB. What happened to the days when it was better to get the big hit? The way the rules are now, defensive coordinators are going to have to figure other ways to get to the QB because the rules don't allow coverage. When QBs start going down to injuries because of 8-9 man blitzes, the NFL is going to be wondering WTF happened? When Dan Marino's career records are being equalled by Peyton Manning within 5 years and destroyed beyond all recognition, the NFL will pat itself on the bat oblivious to the fact that the records are inconsequential.

Excellent post. rep.

dirk digler
03-20-2005, 09:30 AM
Great minds think alike.
See post #4.

:thumb: I missed that you are exactly right. I think the automatic first down on a 5yd penalty is stupid.

Coogs
03-20-2005, 09:33 AM
I'd like to see it called fairly for all teams. Last year, at times, it seemed that refs were giving good defenses(or defenses with good reputations) the benefit of the doubt with illegal contact, but for teams like KC or Indy or Minn, the pass plays were called pretty tight.

It got to the point I couldn't celebrate a good defensive play last year, until some time went by before the announcer would say,"But there is a flag on the play". And it ended up being some ticky tack call.

I totally agree with whoman69's post. And I also agree to an extent with this post. If nothing is done about the pass defensive rules, then the first line of this post up to the fairly is what I would like to see being upheld.

The 5 yard rule is much like the holding rule. It is violated on nearly every single play. The "timing" of the penalty called (or not called, which is what donkhater is probably refering) seems to be a big factor in determining the outcomes of many ballgames. And that is the part I don't like. Let the players decide who is the best team, not the official with a flag on a play that could be called on every single passing play of every game.

bricks
03-20-2005, 09:33 AM
Ok..I'm beginning to look for some scapegoats here...Damn you Peyton, Marvin, Reggie, Edgerrin :banghead:

dirk digler
03-20-2005, 09:36 AM
I totally agree with whoman69's post. And I also agree to an extent with this post. If nothing is done about the pass defensive rules, then the first line of this post up to the fairly is what I would like to see being upheld.

The 5 yard rule is much like the holding rule. It is violated on nearly every single play. The "timing" of the penalty called (or not called, which is what donkhater is probably refering) seems to be a big factor in determining the outcomes of many ballgames. And that is the part I don't like. Let the players and teams decide who is the best team, not the official with a flag on a play that could be called on every single passing play of every game.

I totally agree but when you add the human element into the mix you get varied results. Like when MJ played he would get away with fouls that no other player would get and the same thing applies here.

We need robot refs.

milkman
03-20-2005, 09:39 AM
I totally agree but when you add the human element into the mix you get varied results. Like when MJ played he would get away with fouls that no other player would get and the same thing applies here.

We need robot refs.

That human element is the only reason that I don't like the proposal to change the PI penalty.

I just don't have a lot of faith in the ref's judgement.

dirk digler
03-20-2005, 09:42 AM
That human element is the only reason that I don't like the proposal to change the PI penalty.

I just don't have a lot of faith in the ref's judgement.

Me either. I think they should just leave it alone but change the illegal contact and D-holding.

IMO I don't think they are going to change any of these rules which will lead to what whoman69 posted about.

Coogs
03-20-2005, 09:42 AM
I totally agree but when you add the human element into the mix you get varied results. Like when MJ played he would get away with fouls that no other player would get and the same thing applies here.

We need robot refs.

I don't know about robot refs, but we could use some consistancy.

Like for instance, Gonzo getting mugged and no flag being thrown because he was preceived to not be an intended receiver on the play anyway...

...and then they turn right around and flag someone like Battle everytime he touches a WR, even if the ball is thrown to the other side of the field.

It just doesn't add up, and leads to whomans post that the NFL has the best game going in the professional ranks. Don't mess it up.

dirk digler
03-20-2005, 09:44 AM
I don't know about robot refs, but we could use some consistancy.

Like for instance, Gonzo getting mugged and no flag being thrown because he was preceived to not be an intended receiver on the play anyway...

...and then they turn right around and flag someone like Battle everytime he touches a WR, even if the ball is thrown to the other side of the field.

It just doesn't add up, and leads to whomans post that the NFL has the best game going in the professional ranks. Don't mess it up.

:thumb: Totally agree Coogs.

That is why I think the refs should go full time and they need to hire younger refs. IMO the game is way to fast for some of these 60 year old.

htismaqe
03-20-2005, 09:55 AM
I understand but Parker is saying he wants just the college rule which I disagree with him about.

No, I'm saying I prefer the college rule to the pro rule. What the Chiefs have proposed is EVEN better, because it fixes the one thing wrong with the college rule.

Wallcrawler
03-20-2005, 01:49 PM
So Im reading that CP and the Chiefs want the Pass defense rules ammended.


Do any of you actually think that any request to change the pass defense rules coming from a team which is the proud owner of the 32nd ranked pass defense in the league is really going to be taken seriously?


Likely, the league will tell CP and the Chiefs to STFD, STFU, and bring in some players that can play defense, and you wont need any rule changes to the pass defense rules.

Mastashake
03-20-2005, 01:53 PM
It depends...

If Al Davis opposes it, then it will pass with flying colors.

KingPriest2
03-20-2005, 09:25 PM
already has been posted 2 days ago.

The Bad Guy
03-20-2005, 09:29 PM
In college, pass interference is a 15-yard penalty plus automatic first down, rather than a spot foul.

Yes, but they can't have this in the NFL. If a receiver is wide open going to catch a bomb and a defender tackles him before the ball gets there, then it shouldn't just be a 15-yard penalty.

Logical
03-20-2005, 09:38 PM
Get some real players in your secondary, Carl. You don't need to punish the rest of the league because you took William Bartee with a second round pick, and then chose to re-sign him.

I agree that the real problem is our piss poor defenders, however, the new enforcement of the rule also sucks arse.

Dayze
03-20-2005, 09:41 PM
If I were CP, I'd be campaigning for a Cap Relief dollar value for those players a team drafts that turn out to be turds.
$500K relief per player. :p

If my math comes up correctly, that would free up $5M for the 10 players that blow pipe on our defense (less Bell).
:thumb:

:clap:

Valiant
03-20-2005, 10:12 PM
Yes, but they can't have this in the NFL. If a receiver is wide open going to catch a bomb and a defender tackles him before the ball gets there, then it shouldn't just be a 15-yard penalty.



They wont tackle the guy, but they will become trained to tangle thier feet easier...