11th Circuit Court of Appeals panel: Appeal to Reconnected Tube Denied

[DenverChief]

Last stop Supreme Court

ATLANTA - A federal appeals court refused early Wednesday to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, denying an emergency request by the severely brain-damaged woman's parents to keep her alive.


In its 2-1 ruling, a three-judge panel of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals said the woman's parents "failed to demonstrate a substantial case on the merits of any of their claims."



"There is no denying the absolute tragedy that has befallen Mrs. Schiavo," the ruling read. "We all have our own family, our own loved ones, and our own children. However, we are called upon to make a collective, objective decision concerning a question of law."



Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, vowed another appeal Wednesday.



"The Schindlers will be filing an appropriate appeal to save their daughter's life," said Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing the parents.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

[Raiderhader]

I heard on tv yesterday that the only way the SC would consider hearing this was if there was a dissenting judge on the 11th Circuit Court. Well, they have that now, but I think they are probably out of time....

[Amnorix]

I heard on tv yesterday that the only way the SC would consider hearing this was if there was a dissenting judge on the 11th Circuit Court. Well, they have that now, but I think they are probably out of time....

Look for the SC to deny cert. on this. I doubt they want to touch it. The right to lifers probably wouldn't have the votes to win anyway, so why take it?

[Raiderhader]

Look for the SC to deny cert. on this. I doubt they want to touch it. The right to lifers probably wouldn't have the votes to win anyway, so why take it?


The pundit said it was the only way they would, not that they would for certain. I do not expect them to touch it. And as I said, even if they did, time is quickly running out.

At this point, they just need to give her a lethal injection and let her go quick and painless.

[Amnorix]

The pundit said it was the only way they would, not that they would for certain. I do not expect them to touch it. And as I said, even if they did, time is quickly running out.

At this point, they just need to give her a lethal injection and let her go quick and painless.

Nope, that's illegal. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Idiotic policy.

[Saggysack]

The pundit said it was the only way they would, not that they would for certain. I do not expect them to touch it. And as I said, even if they did, time is quickly running out.

At this point, they just need to give her a lethal injection and let her go quick and painless.


Pain? What pain?

No hope for Schiavo, experts say

Eagle news services


For all the legal, political and religious arguments that swirl around Terri Schiavo, it is the faint hope of recovery that fuels her parents' efforts to keep her alive with a feeding tube.

The overwhelming consensus among neurologists is that the chances are vanishingly small. Numerous doctors who have examined Schiavo over the years have concluded that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

The brain-damaged woman will never regain the conscious awareness she lost 15 years ago, medical experts said. Ronald Cranford, professor of neurology at the University of Minnesota who examined Schiavo in 2002, said: "The chances of her waking up or benefiting from treatment are zero."

If you are in a room with Schiavo, her eyes do not track you, Cranford said. CAT scans show that the higher, thinking region of her brain -- the cerebral cortex -- has been severely damaged and scarred, he said.

Her electroencephalogram readings measuring brain activity from the cortex "are flat," he added. Cranford has testified on behalf of Schiavo's husband.

Schiavo's parents, however, have argued that their daughter's condition is not as bad as doctors say. Schiavo sleeps and wakes, blinks, and sometimes seems to smile. Her parents and other critics of the decision to remove her feeding tube insist that she responds to the presence of friends and relatives.

Medical experts said those behaviors are the cruelest aspect of a terrible condition: Grimaces and other facial expressions give families of tens of thousands of such patients hope, but they are evidence only that Schiavo's brain stem is working, keeping alive reflexes and routine bodily functions. They do not suggest that the higher areas of brain functioning needed for her to regain conscious awareness will return, experts said.

Robert Veatch, a medical ethics professor, said Schiavo can't feel sensations of hunger or thirst. "She can't starve or be thirsty," he said. "Anyone who uses those words doesn't understand the condition she is in."

None of the numerous doctors, nurses and hospice employees interviewed for this article said they have ever seen removal of a feeding tube increase suffering of a hospice patient.

"I've helped thousands of people be comfortable at the end of life," said Michael Marschke, medical director for Horizon Hospice in Chicago. "Most stop eating on their own, and they're very comfortable doing it."

Some hospice workers criticized what they described as bad information on feeding tube removal put out by congressional lawmakers.

Rep. Jim Ryun, R-Kan., said that Schiavo's husband, by testifying that his wife would have wanted the tube removed, "sentenced her to a most excruciating death."

"I listened to those representatives, and I was appalled," Marschke said. "They're wrong. To talk like that is an injustice to the public."

Advocates for Schiavo's survival insist the dehydration process is painful.

[Raiderhader]

Nope, that's illegal. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Idiotic policy.



Uhm, what is the difference between pulling her feeding tube and giving her a lethal injection other than the time it takes to reach the final out come?

[alnorth]

Uhm, what is the difference between pulling her feeding tube and giving her a lethal injection other than the time it takes to reach the final out come?

One is legal, and the other, for some idiotic reason, is not.

[Raiderhader]

Pain? What pain?

No hope for Schiavo, experts say

Eagle news services


For all the legal, political and religious arguments that swirl around Terri Schiavo, it is the faint hope of recovery that fuels her parents' efforts to keep her alive with a feeding tube.

The overwhelming consensus among neurologists is that the chances are vanishingly small. Numerous doctors who have examined Schiavo over the years have concluded that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

The brain-damaged woman will never regain the conscious awareness she lost 15 years ago, medical experts said. Ronald Cranford, professor of neurology at the University of Minnesota who examined Schiavo in 2002, said: "The chances of her waking up or benefiting from treatment are zero."

If you are in a room with Schiavo, her eyes do not track you, Cranford said. CAT scans show that the higher, thinking region of her brain -- the cerebral cortex -- has been severely damaged and scarred, he said.

Her electroencephalogram readings measuring brain activity from the cortex "are flat," he added. Cranford has testified on behalf of Schiavo's husband.

Schiavo's parents, however, have argued that their daughter's condition is not as bad as doctors say. Schiavo sleeps and wakes, blinks, and sometimes seems to smile. Her parents and other critics of the decision to remove her feeding tube insist that she responds to the presence of friends and relatives.

Medical experts said those behaviors are the cruelest aspect of a terrible condition: Grimaces and other facial expressions give families of tens of thousands of such patients hope, but they are evidence only that Schiavo's brain stem is working, keeping alive reflexes and routine bodily functions. They do not suggest that the higher areas of brain functioning needed for her to regain conscious awareness will return, experts said.

Robert Veatch, a medical ethics professor, said Schiavo can't feel sensations of hunger or thirst. "She can't starve or be thirsty," he said. "Anyone who uses those words doesn't understand the condition she is in."

None of the numerous doctors, nurses and hospice employees interviewed for this article said they have ever seen removal of a feeding tube increase suffering of a hospice patient.

"I've helped thousands of people be comfortable at the end of life," said Michael Marschke, medical director for Horizon Hospice in Chicago. "Most stop eating on their own, and they're very comfortable doing it."

Some hospice workers criticized what they described as bad information on feeding tube removal put out by congressional lawmakers.

Rep. Jim Ryun, R-Kan., said that Schiavo's husband, by testifying that his wife would have wanted the tube removed, "sentenced her to a most excruciating death."

"I listened to those representatives, and I was appalled," Marschke said. "They're wrong. To talk like that is an injustice to the public."

Advocates for Schiavo's survival insist the dehydration process is painful.

Try dehydrating yourself and tell me how painless it is.

If she truly does not feel anything, what is wrong with granting the family's wish to exhaust all possible measures to rehabilitate her? In so doing, if it is true that there is no hope for her, her family can at least rest easy when they finally do let her go.

Even if she does feel nothing, the possibility is there that she can (because frankly, we do not know 100% what she can and can not feel), so at the very least, put her down quickly to ease the family's suffering. When the f#ck did we become so heartless as a society?

[Cochise]

Uhm, what is the difference between pulling her feeding tube and giving her a lethal injection other than the time it takes to reach the final out come?

One of them we wouldn't be allowed to do to a serial killer, because the twinkletoed consider it too cruel. But I guess it's fine to do it to someone who's not wronged anyone.

[Saggysack]

Uhm, what is the difference between pulling her feeding tube and giving her a lethal injection other than the time it takes to reach the final out come?

Nothing, just the amount of time it takes to die.

But, I vividly remember a person who assisted some with that made the decision to end it all with a lethal dose of medicine. He ended up recieving 20yrs in the pen.

[Raiderhader]

One is legal, and the other, for some idiotic reason, is not.


Both are killing her. I see no reason why the method makes a damn bit of difference.

[Raiderhader]

Nothing, just the amount of time it takes to die.

But, I vividly remember a person who assisted some with that made the decision to end it all with a lethal dose of medicine. He ended up recieving 20yrs in the pen.


A convicted murderer can get a lethal injection and go quickly, but an innocent woman has to possibly suffer.

Some days, I weep for my country.

[Saggysack]

Try dehydrating yourself and tell me how painless it is.

If she truly does not feel anything, what is wrong with granting the family's wish to exhaust all possible measures to rehabilitate her? In so doing, if it is true that there is no hope for her, her family can at least rest easy when they finally do let her go.

Even if she does feel nothing, the possibility is there that she can (because frankly, we do not know 100% what she can and can not feel), so at the very least, put her down quickly to ease the family's suffering. When the f#ck did we become so heartless as a society?

I've been dehydrated plenty of times. I've have quite a few IV bags in my time. I know it is painful. But, I also have a normal, functioning cerebral cortex that tells my body it is in pain.

Schaivo's cerebral cortex readings are flat, there is no activity. She doesn't feel pain. How hard is that to understand?

[Saggysack]

A convicted murderer can get a lethal injection and go quickly, but an innocent woman has to possibly suffer.

Some days, I weep for my country.

You have a problem with it, try to change the law.

[Raiderhader]

Pain? What pain?

No hope for Schiavo, experts say

Eagle news services


For all the legal, political and religious arguments that swirl around Terri Schiavo, it is the faint hope of recovery that fuels her parents' efforts to keep her alive with a feeding tube.

The overwhelming consensus among neurologists is that the chances are vanishingly small. Numerous doctors who have examined Schiavo over the years have concluded that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

The brain-damaged woman will never regain the conscious awareness she lost 15 years ago, medical experts said. Ronald Cranford, professor of neurology at the University of Minnesota who examined Schiavo in 2002, said: "The chances of her waking up or benefiting from treatment are zero."

If you are in a room with Schiavo, her eyes do not track you, Cranford said. CAT scans show that the higher, thinking region of her brain -- the cerebral cortex -- has been severely damaged and scarred, he said.

Her electroencephalogram readings measuring brain activity from the cortex "are flat," he added. Cranford has testified on behalf of Schiavo's husband.

Schiavo's parents, however, have argued that their daughter's condition is not as bad as doctors say. Schiavo sleeps and wakes, blinks, and sometimes seems to smile. Her parents and other critics of the decision to remove her feeding tube insist that she responds to the presence of friends and relatives.

Medical experts said those behaviors are the cruelest aspect of a terrible condition: Grimaces and other facial expressions give families of tens of thousands of such patients hope, but they are evidence only that Schiavo's brain stem is working, keeping alive reflexes and routine bodily functions. They do not suggest that the higher areas of brain functioning needed for her to regain conscious awareness will return, experts said.

Robert Veatch, a medical ethics professor, said Schiavo can't feel sensations of hunger or thirst. "She can't starve or be thirsty," he said. "Anyone who uses those words doesn't understand the condition she is in."

None of the numerous doctors, nurses and hospice employees interviewed for this article said they have ever seen removal of a feeding tube increase suffering of a hospice patient.

"I've helped thousands of people be comfortable at the end of life," said Michael Marschke, medical director for Horizon Hospice in Chicago. "Most stop eating on their own, and they're very comfortable doing it."

Some hospice workers criticized what they described as bad information on feeding tube removal put out by congressional lawmakers.

Rep. Jim Ryun, R-Kan., said that Schiavo's husband, by testifying that his wife would have wanted the tube removed, "sentenced her to a most excruciating death."

"I listened to those representatives, and I was appalled," Marschke said. "They're wrong. To talk like that is an injustice to the public."

Advocates for Schiavo's survival insist the dehydration process is painful.


ALAN COLMES, CO-HOST: Dr. Hammesfahr, it's Alan Colmes in New York. Thank you for being with us.

One of the other doctors who examined her, and by the way, among those doctors there were those who were not paid, who were independent, who were not on either side. --

Dr. Ron Cranford, who'll be on this show tomorrow night. I want to put up what he said:

He said, "She's vegetative. She's flat out vegetative. There's never been a shread of doubt that she's vegetative, and nothing's going to change that."

"This has been a massive propaganda campaign, which has been very successful, because it deludes the public into thinking she's really there."

Explain to me, as a lay person, what I'm supposed to believe, hearing medical authorities saying what you say and saying what Cranford says?

HAMMESFAHR: Well, I think you need to go and look at the videotape of Dr. Cranford. Dr. Cranford's videotape compliments Terri on following commands. At one point he moves a balloon around in front of her and he again compliments that she is able to see it that she can follow commands.

And I also think that you need to look a little closer. Dr. Cranford's work has been attacked by other medical professionals in peer reviewed journals such as "Lancet." So I think that we to look a little bit deeper at Dr. Cranford.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151148,00.html

I see conflicting reports here.....

[Saggysack]

I see conflicting reports here.....

He also said this...

HAMMESFAHR: Terri is completely aware and conscious and responsive. She is like a child with cerebral palsy. We have kids in the Pinellas County school system every day that are much worse than her, that we're educating.

Like a child with cerebral palsy? Huh?

FTR the doctor you are citing only spent 10hrs with Schiavo. While others that have spent several hundred of hours with her, disagree with him.

[DenverChief]

HAMMESFAHR: Well, I think you need to go and look at the videotape of Dr. Cranford. Dr. Cranford's videotape compliments Terri on following commands. At one point he moves a balloon around in front of her and he again compliments that she is able to see it that she can follow commands.

[/URL]
.

He watched a videotape big whoopde doo....did he stay at a holliday inn express too?

[alnorth]

He watched a videotape big whoopde doo....did he stay at a holliday inn express too?

ROFL Rep

[DenverChief]

Last stop Supreme Court




my bad they are going to ask for a full review by the 11th circuit...then the SC

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_57

[Amnorix]

my bad they are going to ask for a full review by the 11th circuit...then the SC

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_57

Asking for review en banc makes sense since I don't think the SC is likely to grant cert.

[DenverChief]

Asking for review en banc makes sense since I don't think the SC is likely to grant cert.

I don't think they will hear it...I think the buck stopped last night

[Amnorix]

I don't think they will hear it...I think the buck stopped last night

I could see en banc being granted, but hard to say. Best the parents can hope for would be issuance of the preliminary injunction and remand to the district court, so the chances of ultimate victory for the parents is pretty thin.

[go bowe]

I could see en banc being granted, but hard to say. Best the parents can hope for would be issuance of the preliminary injunction and remand to the district court, so the chances of ultimate victory for the parents is pretty thin.pretty thin?

that's being overly charitable, don't you think?

[Raiderhader]

He also said this...



Like a child with cerebral palsy? Huh?[/QOUTE]

Do I need to provide a definition of CP?

[QOUTE]FTR the doctor you are citing only spent 10hrs with Schiavo. While others that have spent several hundred of hours with her, disagree with him.


Several hundred hours of face to face time? The 10 hours was only face to face time, he has spent more time than that studying her case and situation.

[Raiderhader]

He watched a videotape big whoopde doo....did he stay at a holliday inn express too?


"The contents of this tape could undermine my position, so I am going to make a joke and try and laugh the guy off as an idiot."

[DenverChief]

"The contents of this tape could undermine my position, so I am going to make a joke and try and laugh the guy off as an idiot."

Nope the contents of that tape have NEVER been replicated...one instance does not make a rule...you of all people should know this

[Raiderhader]

Nope the contents of that tape have NEVER been replicated...one instance does not make a rule...you of all people should know this


I never said it made a rule, I said that this "independent" doctor has contradicted himself. Now why the f#ck is that?

There are too many questions floating around in regards to this mess for so many people to be soooo sure. What is really funny is that most of you have no expertise in this matter and are so sure of the woman's situation, AND have the audacity to question with out regard people who are experts in the field.

I asked this yesterday and never got an answer from anyone: why are so many people so hell bent on seeing this woman dead? It makes no f#cking sense. what. so. ever.

[alnorth]

I never said it made a rule, I said that this "independent" doctor has contradicted himself. Now why the f#ck is that?

There are too many questions floating around in regards to this mess for so many people to be soooo sure. What is really funny is that most of you have no expertise in this matter and are so sure of the woman's situation, AND have the audacity to question with out regard people who are experts in the field.

I asked this yesterday and never got an answer from anyone: why are so many people so hell bent on seeing this woman dead? It makes no f#cking sense. what. so. ever.

She - has - no- upper - brain. It has disintegrated into spinal fluid, and to believe that it can re-appear in a magical flash of light is idiotic. We are not starfish that can regrow limbs, when your cerebral cortex is dead you are incapable of thought, feeling, or emotion. This concern over starvation as inhumane is silly, you can cut her head off with an X-acto knife and shell stare at you with that goofy grin as your doing it.

As for Terri herself, if her idiotic delusional parents, who dont care about their daughter's wishes at all, they are selfishly keeping this robot ticking along for their own emotional needs, if they succeed in keeping her strapped down into her hospital bed staring vacantly at the ceiling for the rest of her "life", I wont lose sleep over it.

What is hideously dangerous and abhorrent to me is the potential precedent that would be set if your wishes, expressed to your spouse and some friends, could be casually ignored.

[Raiderhader]

She - has - no- upper - brain. It has disintegrated into spinal fluid, and to believe that it can re-appear in a magical flash of light is idiotic. We are not starfish that can regrow limbs, when your cerebral cortex is dead you are incapable of thought, feeling, or emotion. This concern over starvation as inhumane is silly, you can cut her head off with an X-acto knife and shell stare at you with that goofy grin as your doing it.

This has all been reported as fact, but if that is the case, why are there so many doctors who believe she can be rehabilitated? Something is not adding up. But, you really do not care, do you? You want to see her dead and no possible evidence that she might not be is going to stand in your way. So be it.

As for Terri herself, if her idiotic delusional parents, who dont care about their daughter's wishes at all, they are selfishly keeping this robot ticking along for their own emotional needs, if they succeed in keeping her strapped down into her hospital bed staring vacantly at the ceiling for the rest of her "life", I wont lose sleep over it.

We do not KNOW for a fact that those were her wishes. Her husband suddenly remembers it seven YEARS later after proposing to another woman. Further more, there is at least one friend who says she had a conversation with her where she indicated the exact opposite of what her husband has said. Once more, conflicting reports.

How can we, in good faith, go forward with this with so many contradictions? This is f#cking insane.

What is hideously dangerous and abhorrent to me is the potential precedent that would be set if your wishes, expressed to your spouse and some friends, could be casually ignored.

What is dangerous to me is the precendent being set that a spouse can kill his/her partner based solely on undocumented and uncorroberated discussions.

[mlyonsd]

What is dangerous to me is the precendent being set that a spouse can kill his/her partner based solely on undocumented and uncorroberated discussions.

Exactly. Since it's not in writing how do we really know? It's an ugly situation either way you look at it but this specific precedent that is being set is insane.

Unless I don't understand all the facts, but I doubt any of us do.

[Raiderhader]

He also said this...



Like a child with cerebral palsy? Huh?

FTR the doctor you are citing only spent 10hrs with Schiavo. While others that have spent several hundred of hours with her, disagree with him.


Hundreds of hours, huh? This so commonly cited "independent" doctor admits to seeing Terri only once for 45 minutes. Kinda makes that 10 hours look a whole lot more respectable, does it not?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151273,00.html

He makes his points, but does not eleviate all of the controversy. The BMJ finding that 43% of these cases are misdiagnosed is nopt a stat to be scoffed at.

[patteeu]

Last stop Supreme Court

Not necessarily, the legislatures can still continue to act (which would lead to more judicial action).

[patteeu]

Uhm, what is the difference between pulling her feeding tube and giving her a lethal injection other than the time it takes to reach the final out come?

It's ironic that the social conservatives are making this kind of argument (I'm presuming you are a social conservative, forgive me if I'm wrong) since it is they who caused the line to be drawn between passive euthenasia (withdrawing support) and active euthenasia (lethal injection) in the first place.

[Raiderhader]

It's ironic that the social conservatives are making this kind of argument (I'm presuming you are a social conservative, forgive me if I'm wrong) since it is they who caused the line to be drawn between passive euthenasia (withdrawing support) and active euthenasia (lethal injection) in the first place.


I am a Conservative, period.

I can't say that 100% of the people who share my ideology think sensibly. The truth of the matter is that either way you are killing the person. It is a conscience decision to end that person's life. The ONLY difference is the method. I guess starving and dehydrating people to death is less squeamish to them than injecting deadly fluids into their bodies for a quick death. It makes no sense to me in any shape or form.

[patteeu]

This has all been reported as fact, but if that is the case, why are there so many doctors who believe she can be rehabilitated? Something is not adding up. But, you really do not care, do you? You want to see her dead and no possible evidence that she might not be is going to stand in your way. So be it.

There is some doubt about whether TS would have wanted to be allowed to die, and there might be a small amount of doubt about whether she is really in a PVS, but both of these factual matters have been litigated. That's the way we do things here in America. We have a government of laws not of men. Given the results of that litigation so far, the lawful thing to do is to remove the feeding tubes as per her desire.

We do not KNOW for a fact that those were her wishes. Her husband suddenly remembers it seven YEARS later after proposing to another woman. Further more, there is at least one friend who says she had a conversation with her where she indicated the exact opposite of what her husband has said. Once more, conflicting reports.

How can we, in good faith, go forward with this with so many contradictions? This is f#cking insane.

Of course we don't. That's why we litigate these things. Should we go out and hang OJ just because we didn't like the verdict? Should Al Gore have torn this country apart by refusing to accept the outcome of the 2000 election because he didn't like the outcome of the SCOTUS case?

If you want to err on the side of life, then you should work to change the laws that allow for the removal of life sustaining technologies in these cases. Pass a law that says that feeding tubes can never be removed regardless of the desire of the patient. Pass a law that says the patient must have a notorized living will in order to have their desires followed. Come up with your own version of a law that will satisfy your personal beliefs, but don't pull our legal system down just because you don't like the result in a single case.

What is dangerous to me is the precendent being set that a spouse can kill his/her partner based solely on undocumented and uncorroberated discussions.

I highly doubt that this case is precedent setting in that regard. But if it is, all it would take is an act of the Florida legislature to change things. This isn't Roe v Wade. Don't buy the hype.

[patteeu]

I am a Conservative, period.

I can't say that 100% of the people who share my ideology think sensibly. The truth of the matter is that either way you are killing the person. It is a conscience decision to end that person's life. The ONLY difference is the method. I guess starving and dehydrating people to death is less squeamish to them than injecting deadly fluids into their bodies for a quick death. It makes no sense to me in any shape or form.

In that case, let's not pretend that you prefer active euthanasia over passive.

[Raiderhader]

There is some doubt about whether TS would have wanted to be allowed to die, and there might be a small amount of doubt about whether she is really in a PVS, but both of these factual matters have been litigated. That's the way we do things here in America. We have a government of laws not of men. Given the results of that litigation so far, the lawful thing to do is to remove the feeding tubes as per her desire.

My problem is with the litigation. There have been more than enough questions raised about the entire situation that this should never have gotten to this point. Common sense has been thrown right out the window on this one.

Of course we don't. That's why we litigate these things. Should we go out and hang OJ just because we didn't like the verdict? Should Al Gore have torn this country apart by refusing to accept the outcome of the 2000 election because he didn't like the outcome of the SCOTUS case?

You make it sound as if I have advocated some sort of action that would be considered illegal, such as Gov. Bush sending the state police and saying the courts be damned. I have not, and will not advocate that. My problem is with the lack of common sense being displayed by so many judges.

If you want to err on the side of life, then you should work to change the laws that allow for the removal of life sustaining technologies in these cases. Pass a law that says that feeding tubes can never be removed regardless of the desire of the patient. Pass a law that says the patient must have a notorized living will in order to have their desires followed. Come up with your own version of a law that will satisfy your personal beliefs, but don't pull our legal system down just because you don't like the result in a single case.

While there are no doubt laws that need some changing, I'll settle at this point for just applying the ones we have more sensibly.

I highly doubt that this case is precedent setting in that regard. But if it is, all it would take is an act of the Florida legislature to change things. This isn't Roe v Wade. Don't buy the hype.

The fact that you do not see the danger in this is just as bewildering as the fact that you are able to ignore all of the questions raised as to wether or not the woman is actually in a PVS. It's like some voodoo witch doctor cast a big ol' dumbassery spell on a huge portion of the population. It is completely dumbfounding to me, I just cannot comprehend what is taking place in the minds of so many of you.

I need a drink.....

[Raiderhader]

In that case, let's not pretend that you prefer active euthanasia over passive.


Are you calling me a liar?

[Amnorix]

My problem is with the litigation. There have been more than enough questions raised about the entire situation that this should never have gotten to this point. Common sense has been thrown right out the window on this one.

You make it sound as if I have advocated some sort of action that would be considered illegal, such as Gov. Bush sending the state police and saying the courts be damned. I have not, and will not advocate that. My problem is with the lack of common sense being displayed by so many judges.

While there are no doubt laws that need some changing, I'll settle at this point for just applying the ones we have more sensibly.

The fact that you do not see the danger in this is just as bewildering as the fact that you are able to ignore all of the questions raised as to wether or not the woman is actually in a PVS. It's like some voodoo witch doctor cast a big ol' dumbassery spell on a huge portion of the population. It is completely dumbfounding to me, I just cannot comprehend what is taking place in the minds of so many of you.

I need a drink.....

Maybe the reality is that the judge who sat there and listened to all the experts, including the court-appionted doctor who said she was in a PVS, reasoanbly decided she was in PVS.

And maybe the fact that not only Michael Schiavo, but 2 or 3 other people (I guess including Michael's brother and sister-in-law) also heard her say that she'd prefer to be unplugged under these circumstances, was more persuasive to the judge than a story Terri's mother told about how she said soemthing back when she was 12 years old.

And maybe the appellate judges (MANY of them) all looked at the judge's decisions with regard to the law and said they were correct, and with regard to the facts said there was no clear error.

And so the justice system moves on. Nobody pretends it's perfect, but listen to yourself. You're basically arguing that 15 or whatever judges are all clueless morons or something. That hardly seems likely, does it?

[Raiderhader]

Maybe the reality is that the judge who sat there and listened to all the experts, including the court-appionted doctor who said she was in a PVS, reasoanbly decided she was in PVS.

And maybe the fact that not only Michael Schiavo, but 2 or 3 other people (I guess including Michael's brother and sister-in-law) also heard her say that she'd prefer to be unplugged under these circumstances, was more persuasive to the judge than a story Terri's mother told about how she said soemthing back when she was 12 years old.

And maybe the appellate judges (MANY of them) all looked at the judge's decisions with regard to the law and said they were correct, and with regard to the facts said there was no clear error.

And so the justice system moves on. Nobody pretends it's perfect, but listen to yourself. You're basically arguing that 15 or whatever judges are all clueless morons or something. That hardly seems likely, does it?


Maybe there are other facts that you are leaving out of your summary.... But I do not care to repeat all of them; I am tired of constantly pointing out contradictions and controversies to only have them ignored blindly for whatever reasons you all have. This has gone beyond ridiculous, the lack of common sense and logic being displayed by so many just leaves me at a loss for words.

[patteeu]

My problem is with the litigation. There have been more than enough questions raised about the entire situation that this should never have gotten to this point. Common sense has been thrown right out the window on this one.

More than enough for who? The courts reviewed the evidence on multiple occasions and came to the conclusions that TS is in PVS and that TS expressed a desire to be allowed to die under that circumstance. Don't you think it's a little bit presumptuous to believe that we have a better ability to resolve the facts of the case than the trial judge who got to actually "hear the witnesses, observe their demeanor, hear inflections, note pregnant pauses, and in all manners assess credibility above and beyond the spoken or typed word?" By contrast, we view the limited record of the trial from afar, we get a mixture of evidence, partial information, propaganda (from both sides), and innaccurate guesswork.

It isn't uncommon at all for judges to make determinations of facts that have life or death implications. Human nature being what it is, sometimes mistakes will be made. That's why we allow for appeals. The process isn't perfect, but it beats rule by mob.

You make it sound as if I have advocated some sort of action that would be considered illegal, such as Gov. Bush sending the state police and saying the courts be damned. I have not, and will not advocate that. My problem is with the lack of common sense being displayed by so many judges.

I apologize if that's how I'm making it sound. As far as I know, you aren't advocating these things.

While there are no doubt laws that need some changing, I'll settle at this point for just applying the ones we have more sensibly.

Other than it's emotional appeal and the subject matter's relationship to strongly held religious/moral views, I fail to see how this case is a good one to cite when looking for an example where laws should be applied more sensibly.

It's like some voodoo witch doctor cast a big ol' dumbassery spell on a huge portion of the population.

I agree with this, but I think you are wrong about which group is under a spell.

[patteeu]

Maybe the reality is that the judge who sat there and listened to all the experts, including the court-appionted doctor who said she was in a PVS, reasoanbly decided she was in PVS.

And maybe the fact that not only Michael Schiavo, but 2 or 3 other people (I guess including Michael's brother and sister-in-law) also heard her say that she'd prefer to be unplugged under these circumstances, was more persuasive to the judge than a story Terri's mother told about how she said soemthing back when she was 12 years old.

And maybe the appellate judges (MANY of them) all looked at the judge's decisions with regard to the law and said they were correct, and with regard to the facts said there was no clear error.

And so the justice system moves on. Nobody pretends it's perfect, but listen to yourself. You're basically arguing that 15 or whatever judges are all clueless morons or something. That hardly seems likely, does it?

I should have just left this thread alone since you have perfectly summarized all the relevant points in this post.