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KCWolfman
03-23-2005, 04:04 PM
When Uninsured Immigrants are hurt, Who pays? (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/11205057.htm)
By ALAN BAVLEY The Kansas City Star


“Several of the patients are young adults with families — young children they're responsible for who are U.S. citizens. How do you say no to them?”

Suzanne Meyer, director of social work, Truman Medical Center


Caesar Sacaries-Barrios is lucky to be alive — and to still be in the United States.

The 23-year-old restaurant worker is an undocumented immigrant originally from Guatemala. He barely remembers a car wreck in November that left him in a coma at North Kansas City Hospital.

He knows nothing about the estimated $250,000 the hospital has spent to keep him alive.

He's still unaware that the hospital — faced with the possibility of rapidly mounting bills — tried to fly him to his home country in a specially equipped plane while he was comatose.

“That shows you just how expensive this guy's care is,” said Chuck Chionuma, a Kansas City lawyer who has been fighting a legal battle to keep Sacaries-Barrios in the United States. “They were willing to foot that bill just to get him back to Guatemala.”

Shipping a patient home may be an extreme measure. But it's a sign of the frustration at many hospitals across the country as they care for growing numbers of poor, undocumented immigrants.

The immigrants often work at low-paying jobs that do not provide health insurance. They often do not qualify for government health programs, such as Medicaid, or are too fearful to apply.

Christina Vasquez Case, director of Alianzas, a University of Missouri-Kansas City initiative that works with the Hispanic community, said she understood how unpaid medical bills could frustrate communities, but said the American labor market had a role in creating the situation.

Undocumented workers “get here, and within 36 hours of being here, the people who want to work, can work,” Case said. “That is the reality of it.”

When undocumented immigrants show up at emergency rooms in critical condition, hospitals are ethically and legally bound to treat them.

“It does seem to be a problem of growing dimensions,” said Carla Luggiero, who handles immigration concerns for the American Hospital Association. “At some point, our nation is going to have to grapple with the issue.”

Officials at North Kansas City Hospital declined repeated requests to discuss its care of Sacaries-Barrios but issued this statement: “We are glad that Mr. Barrios is recovering from his injuries, and we wish him well as he continues to progress during his recovery. At this time, we feel it's best not to provide any further comment.”

The cost of caring for undocumented immigrants is impossible to calculate nationally because hospitals rarely track patients' immigration status.

But when the Florida Hospital Association polled its member hospitals in 2002, it received 700 reports of uninsured non-citizens who ran up bills totaling more than $40 million for childbirth, brain tumors, heart surgery and other care.

In counties that border Mexico, hospitals and ambulance services estimated that they spent more than $200 million in 2000 caring for undocumented immigrants who were uninsured

The problem is reaching deep into the heartland as well.

Luggiero says she regularly gets calls from states with growing immigrant populations, such as New York, New Jersey, Illinois, North and South Carolina and Kansas.

Immigrants have been streaming into southwest Kansas for years, attracted by jobs in the region's meatpacking plants.

In Dodge City, 30 percent to 40 percent of patients arriving at the emergency room of the Western Plains Medical Complex are undocumented immigrants, said Brian Roland, the hospital's business office director.

“Most of them are uninsured,” he said. “We do have some folks who do what they can to pay, but a large majority does not.”

Truman Medical Center estimates it spends at least $500,000 a year providing dialysis for eight kidney patients, all undocumented or resident immigrants who do not qualify for public programs such as Medicaid.

Because the patients are uninsured, the hospital has been unable to find any outpatient dialysis clinics willing to care for them.

Rather than force the patients to wait until they are critically ill to receive dialysis at the emergency room, the hospital schedules them for visits three times a week.

“Several of the patients are young adults with families — young children they're responsible for who are U.S. citizens. How do you say no to them?” said Suzanne Meyer, Truman's director of social work.

Although Medicaid has provisions to pay for the emergency care of some immigrants, eligibility is just as limited as it is for other patients, said Anne Dunkelberg of the Center for Public Policy Priorities, a Texas-based advocacy group for people with low or moderate incomes.

“You have to look like a (regular) Medicaid recipient in every way except for your immigration status,” she said.

When Congress approved a new Medicare drug benefit in 2003, it included $1 billion that will be paid out over the next four years for emergency care to undocumented patients.

Dunkelberg said that the program would pay only pennies on the dollar.

“It would be a little marginal bonus to hospitals,” she said.

Most of the money will go to states with large numbers of immigrants, such as California and Texas. Kansas is scheduled to receive $1.1 million this year. Missouri would get $525,000. Sacaries-Barrios' care would absorb almost half that amount.

Sacaries-Barrios is recuperating at Integrated Health Services of Kansas City at Alpine North, a Riverside nursing home. His lawyers say the hospital is paying his bills.

A legal battle

Through an interpreter, Sacaries-Barrios said that he came to the United States about two years ago from Mexico. He worked as a restaurant cook and dishwasher, sending money back to his family.

The night of Nov. 17, Sacaries-Barrios was riding in a car with a friend. He remembers the car turning over, and he remembers feeling blood.

According to court documents, doctors at North Kansas City diagnosed Sacaries-Barrios as comatose and suffering head injuries and a ruptured spleen. They placed him on a ventilator to assist his breathing and fed him through a tube.

When the hospital transferred Sacaries-Barrios to Alpine North on Dec. 23, his condition had stabilized, but he was in a persistent vegetative state, incapable of conscious thought or behavior.

A month later, a hospital physician said that his condition had not changed and that his long-term prognosis was poor, court records said.

As the hospital worked to identify Sacaries-Barrios and look for family members, word of his case reached Spanish-language radio station La Super X, 1250 AM. Rosa Quintana, an account executive with La Super X, said hospital officials told her they intended to send Sacaries-Barrios to Guatemala.

Although Guatemala has public hospitals open to the poor, they do not provide the same care as U.S. hospitals, said Gustavo Lopez, the Guatemalan consul general in Chicago, who is familiar with Sacaries-Barrios' situation.

“He wouldn't have the same assistance,” Lopez said. “That's the plain truth.”

Quintana contacted Chionuma, who is an immigrant from Nigeria. He agreed to represent Sacaries-Barrios free of charge.

Chionuma said he met with hospital officials Jan. 26 and pleaded with them to let Sacaries-Barrios stay here. Hospital officials told him they were going ahead with their plan, he said.

Chionuma began legal proceedings in Clay County Circuit Court to prevent North Kansas City Hospital from moving Sacaries-Barrios. By mid-February, the hospital sent word to Chionuma through its attorneys that it had no intention of returning Sacaries-Barrios to Guatemala.

The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act requires hospitals to screen, treat and stabilize anyone who arrives at an emergency room, regardless of income or immigration status.

“It sounds to me that (North Kansas City) hospital at least met its stabilization requirements (with Sacaries-Barrios),” said Steve Hitov of the National Health Law Program in Washington.

“The real question now is: Where does he go? You can't discharge a person into the same danger or worse danger than they were in before.”

In 2003 a Florida hospital flew a patient home to Guatemala after he had run up bills of more than $1 million. The man had come out of a coma but was severely brain damaged. A court later ruled that the hospital did not have a good plan for his continued care and should not have discharged him.

But it is exceedingly rare for hospitals to avoid giving legally required care to undocumented patients, said Gabrielle Lessard of the National Immigration Law Center in Los Angeles.

“I think health-care providers try to do the right thing for patients,” she said.

Many undocumented immigrants still stay away from hospitals or fail to apply for government programs because they are afraid their immigration status will be reported, Lessard said.

“These are people who try not to use health services,” she said. “They only go to the hospital if there's no alternative.”

Meanwhile, Sacaries-Barrios is making a remarkable recovery. By early February, he appeared to be regaining consciousness. By the end of the month he was out of bed and talking. He's thinking of returning home.

“The man is coming back to life,” Chionuma said.

To reach Alan Bavley, call

(816) 234-4858 or send e-mail to abavley@kcstar.com.
[/b]

KCWolfman
03-23-2005, 04:05 PM
On another note in the same article, how blandly PC we have become. Who the hell calls them "undocumented immigrants"? They are illegal aliens.

tyton75
03-23-2005, 04:35 PM
Call me cold-hearted.. but whats so wrong with shooting illegals trying to cross the border illegally... if they want.. become more liberal in the standards to making these people LEGALS...

in terrorist climates.. I see nothing wrong with a warning shot... if they dont' stop.. shoot 'em

pisses me off that Mexico actually created pamphlets on how to illegally enter the U.S.

KCWolfman
03-23-2005, 04:38 PM
Call me cold-hearted.. but whats so wrong with shooting illegals trying to cross the border illegally... if they want.. become more liberal in the standards to making these people LEGALS...

in terrorist climates.. I see nothing wrong with a warning shot... if they dont' stop.. shoot 'em

pisses me off that Mexico actually created pamphlets on how to illegally enter the U.S.
You are blaming people who simply are so downtrodden in their own country they will do anything to have a better life for them and/or their families.

Blame Mexico for allowing such actions and our own Left Wings for wanting their votes as badly as the Right Wings want their cheap labor. Yes, I know they don't currently have their votes.

tyton75
03-23-2005, 04:42 PM
I'm not blaming the Mexicans themselves.. I'm blaming our Government for allowing it and the Mexican gov't for encouraging it.

I have no problem with Mexicans Emmigrating here legally.. but when they cross illegally.. then they are breaking the law...

Liberalize the emmigration standard.. just as long as they are legal...

mikey23545
03-23-2005, 05:09 PM
Gee, maybe this guys cerebral cortex hadn't turned to fluid like Schiavo's has....

el borracho
03-23-2005, 05:13 PM
Wolfman, are you trying to draw parallels between the man in this article and T. Schiavo? There are several notable differences: Schiavo has not improved in 15 years and, reportedly, at least part of her brain has deteriorated to spinal fluid. I don't see how anyone could recover a functional life if their brain has deteriorated in such a manner- do you?

DenverChief
03-23-2005, 05:52 PM
Wolfman, are you trying to draw parallels between the man in this article and T. Schiavo?

Isn't it obvious? It sfunny how we have gone from planet lawyers to planet doctors :rolleyes:

go bowe
03-23-2005, 06:44 PM
Isn't it obvious? It sfunny how we have gone from planet lawyers to planet doctors :rolleyes:hey!

speak for yourself, bub...

oh, wait... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

go bowe
03-23-2005, 06:48 PM
Gee, maybe this guys cerebral cortex hadn't turned to fluid like Schiavo's has....if i understood the various court filings and reports, her cerebral cortex has changed, according to a cat scan, leaving a void which has been filled in by cerebrospinal fluid...

the brain didn't actually "turn into" anything, it just died (from lack of oxygen, presumably) and was replaced by csf...

KCWolfman
03-23-2005, 06:50 PM
Wolfman, are you trying to draw parallels between the man in this article and T. Schiavo? There are several notable differences: Schiavo has not improved in 15 years and, reportedly, at least part of her brain has deteriorated to spinal fluid. I don't see how anyone could recover a functional life if their brain has deteriorated in such a manner- do you?
Many on here have quoted that PVS is permanent and unrecoverable. Not just in Schiavo's case, but believing the disease to be permanently disabling.

Just wanted to prove them wrong. Of course, they will detract from that fact by stating Schiavo has been incapacitated for over a decade - and they would be right. But that is hardly the point being made here.

KCWolfman
03-23-2005, 06:54 PM
Isn't it obvious? It sfunny how we have gone from planet lawyers to planet doctors :rolleyes:
Obviously that wasn't my point at all. However, with your small mindedness, that doesn't surprise me in the least.

BIG_DADDY
03-23-2005, 07:25 PM
No insurance, no citizenship, no medical coverage. We will cover the pine box already.

KCWolfman
03-23-2005, 07:34 PM
No insurance, no citizenship, no medical coverage. We will cover the pine box already.
We couldn't. A hospital in Florida already lost a similar case.

The cost to send him back to his own country cost less than the care here. Unfortunately, NKC was sued and unable to send him home.

Valiant
03-23-2005, 07:49 PM
We couldn't. A hospital in Florida already lost a similar case.

The cost to send him back to his own country cost less than the care here. Unfortunately, NKC was sued and unable to send him home.



Yeah so next time you go to the hospital, do not take any id or medical cards, use a fake accent... That way you get free medical assistant and dont have to worry about paying for it... Seams logical to me..

DenverChief
03-23-2005, 08:24 PM
hey!

speak for yourself, bub...

oh, wait... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:D present poster one of the few exceptions :p

DenverChief
03-23-2005, 08:25 PM
Obviously that wasn't my point at all. However, with your small mindedness, that doesn't surprise me in the least.

Sure

go bowe
03-23-2005, 08:31 PM
Sureooh, ooh...

i was gonna ask, is that small-mindedness a gay thing, or what?



AND/OR



. . .we have gone from planet lawyers to planet doctors :rolleyes: ooh, ooh, does this mean we get to play doctor?

i want to go first...

Valiant
03-23-2005, 08:59 PM
ooh, ooh...





ooh, ooh, does this mean we get to play doctor?

i want to go first...


I'm sure DC wouldn't have a problem with that...

alnorth
03-23-2005, 09:31 PM
A persistent vegetative state, by definition, means you wont ever recover. If he recovered, then he was misdiagnosed.

That happens rarely here and there in the very early stages of severe brain injuries when the doctors are trying to find out what you have left upstairs. Sometimes they decide your upper brain is dead and diagnose PVS, only to be proven wrong.

HOWEVER, in these cases the misdiagnosis becomes evident within a year or two. (usually months) As time goes on, an upper brain which is dead will waste away. If a doctor diagnoses PVS and the family wants to wait a while to see if he was right, thats up to them.

In Terri's case, her upper brain, including the cerebral cortex which controls thoughts, feelings, emotions, ability to feel pain, etc, is GONE. MISSING. VANISHED. Not damaged, not malfunctioning, but GONE, replaced with spinal fluid.

PVS means your upper brain is dead. If your upper brain is F***ing GONE, then by definition, you are PVS and there is no misdiagnosis. Its been 15 years already, its time to let her go to be with God.

KCWolfman
03-23-2005, 09:42 PM
A persistent vegetative state, by definition, means you wont ever recover. If he recovered, then he was misdiagnosed.



That's all need be said.

Misdiagnoses occur everyday.

A woman woke from a 20 year coma last year, again misdiagnosed. Do I believe Schiavo is? I really don't know. But the point is made above, which is all I was looking for.

alnorth
03-23-2005, 09:51 PM
A coma is not PVS. She was not misdiagnosed, she was in a coma, and woke up from it.

In a coma, your upper brain might be damaged, but still very much alive in some form. Their brain is usually intact with some abnormality or low activity requiring life support. I have no problem with holding on to coma patients if the spouse/family wants because they can and do "wake up".

If you have no upper brain, then you are not in a coma. No one has ever "woken up" with a missing cerebral cortex, because there is nothing to wake up from.

If Terri had collapsed only 8 months ago, I could see your point because her upper brain would still be physically intact and it could be possible that the doctors made a mistake in the diagnosis, assuming the patient wanted to be kept alive.

When the upper brain is GONE though, that amounts to rock-solid proof that the diagnosis was 100% correct and at that point, any faint hope of recovery utterly disappears.

KCWolfman
03-23-2005, 09:53 PM
A coma is not PVS. She was not misdiagnosed, she was in a coma, and woke up from it.

In a coma, your upper brain might be damaged, but still very much alive in some form. Their brain is usually intact with some abnormality or low activity requiring life support. I have no problem with holding on to coma patients if the spouse/family wants because they can and do "wake up".

If you have no upper brain, then you are not in a coma. No one has ever "woken up" with a missing cerebral cortex, because there is nothing to wake up from.

If Terri had collapsed only 8 months ago, I could see your point because her upper brain would still be physically intact and it could be possible that the doctors made a mistake in the diagnosis, assuming the patient wanted to be kept alive.

When the upper brain is GONE though, that amounts to rock-solid proof that the diagnosis was 100% correct and any faint hope of recovery utterly diappears.

It was a coma induced supposedly by a disease which set infection into the parietal and occipital lobes which would have rendered a great deal of her normal motor and visual functions inoperative. They were wrong.

Again, it happens ALL the time.

Medicine is probably the most inaccurate of all sciences.

KCWolfman
03-23-2005, 09:54 PM
A coma is not PVS. She was not misdiagnosed, she was in a coma, and woke up from it.

In a coma, your upper brain might be damaged, but still very much alive in some form. Their brain is usually intact with some abnormality or low activity requiring life support. I have no problem with holding on to coma patients if the spouse/family wants because they can and do "wake up".

If you have no upper brain, then you are not in a coma. No one has ever "woken up" with a missing cerebral cortex, because there is nothing to wake up from.

If Terri had collapsed only 8 months ago, I could see your point because her upper brain would still be physically intact and it could be possible that the doctors made a mistake in the diagnosis, assuming the patient wanted to be kept alive.

When the upper brain is GONE though, that amounts to rock-solid proof that the diagnosis was 100% correct and at that point, any faint hope of recovery utterly disappears.
And once more, and probably not for the last time, this is not about Schiavo. It is about the silly ascertations made by many here that the diagnosis of PVS is a final one. Obviously, it is not.

alnorth
03-23-2005, 09:57 PM
It was a coma induced supposedly by a disease which set infection into the parietal and occipital lobes which would have rendered a great deal of her normal motor and visual functions inoperative. They were wrong.

Again, it happens ALL the time.

Medicine is probably the most inaccurate of all sciences.

Fine, whatever, they were wrong. If a car mechanic tells you that your car may die in the road within 2 weeks without repairs, then he may be wrong.

However, if your car does stall due to the lack of needed repairs, that is proof that he was correct.

PVS means your upper brain is dead. After Terri collapsed, the doctors werent sure. A few years after they said she was PVS. When her upper brain freaking DISAPPEARED, that proved the diagnosis to be correct just like your car stalling on the highway proved the mechanic to be correct.

alnorth
03-23-2005, 09:58 PM
And once more, and probably not for the last time, this is not about Schiavo. It is about the silly ascertations made by many here that the diagnosis of PVS is a final one. Obviously, it is not.

When the upper brain f***ing disappears, that is as final as the grave and the tax man.

Garcia Bronco
03-23-2005, 10:01 PM
No insurance, no citizenship, no medical coverage. We will cover the pine box already.


Bullshit....the grand canyon has plenty of room.

(man I'm going to hell)

Garcia Bronco
03-23-2005, 10:28 PM
It was a coma induced supposedly by a disease which set infection into the parietal and occipital lobes which would have rendered a great deal of her normal motor and visual functions inoperative. They were wrong.

Again, it happens ALL the time.

Medicine is probably the most inaccurate of all sciences.


Medicine isn't really a science....there are really only four sciences....each building on the prior one.

Physics....Chemistry....Biology....Psychology

KCWolfman
03-24-2005, 06:24 AM
Fine, whatever, they were wrong. If a car mechanic tells you that your car may die in the road within 2 weeks without repairs, then he may be wrong.

However, if your car does stall due to the lack of needed repairs, that is proof that he was correct.

PVS means your upper brain is dead. After Terri collapsed, the doctors werent sure. A few years after they said she was PVS. When her upper brain freaking DISAPPEARED, that proved the diagnosis to be correct just like your car stalling on the highway proved the mechanic to be correct.
Again, this isn't about Schiavo (no matter how bad many of you want it to be), it is about the arrogance of physicians and many of you who blindly believe their "diagnosis".

Duck Dog
03-24-2005, 10:38 AM
Again, this isn't about Schiavo (no matter how bad many of you want it to be), it is about the arrogance of physicians and many of you who blindly believe their "diagnosis".

I thought the whole point was illegal aliens sucking Americas tit at our expense.