This supports my theory about Terri Schiavo:

[Frankie]

I've said before that her liquified brain is probably incapable of registering pain, hunger, etc, therefore this current process is pretty humane. Not what Tom DeLay, Bill Frist and brothers Bush want to will tell you while they manipulate this into another election issue.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20050324/ts_usatoday/schiavonotlikelytoexperienceapainfuldeathneurologistssay

Schiavo not likely to experience a painful death, neurologists say

Thu Mar 24, 6:55 AM ET

By Kathleen Fackelmann, USA TODAY

Terri Schiavo has had no food or water since Friday, which has led her parents and their supporters to complain that she could be experiencing a painful death. But neurologists on Wednesday said that based on court findings of her condition, her body gradually will shut down in a painless process that will lead to death.

The Florida woman suffered serious brain damage after her heart stopped in 1990, and she has been the focus of a protracted legal battle that reached a zenith on Friday, when her feeding tube was removed by court order.

In a process that could take days, weeks or longer, the lack of food and water will cause chemical imbalances that eventually will shut down major organs such as the kidneys, and that ultimately will trigger heart abnormalities or other fatal problems, says Roger Albin, a neurologist at the University of Michigan.

Florida courts have ruled that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, a condition caused by extensive damage to the cortex and other parts of the brain that are responsible for consciousness, higher thinking, memory or even sensations such as pain, hunger and thirst.

"She's not experiencing hunger - she's not experiencing anything," Albin says.

Patients in such a state don't get better because the body is unable to repair such a massive injury to the brain, says James Bernat, a neurologist at the Dartmouth Medical School in Hanover, N.H.

"If you're in a state like this for three months or more, you're chance of recovery is zero," Albin says.

That point is disputed by Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who are battling Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, to get Terri's feeding tube reinserted.

The condition is confusing because patients in a persistent vegetative state still have the use of a primitive part of the brain, the stem. The brain stem allows them to go through sleep-wake cycles, keeps them breathing and produces facial expressions that can make it look as though they are aware of their surroundings, Albin says.

But those movements are merely reflexes, says Bruce Sigsbee, a neurologist in Rockport, Maine.

[mlyonsd]

Just a guess here....I'll bet there will be a contradicting point of view posted shortly.

See, nobody knows for sure, so every expert that has an opinion has exactly that, just an opinion.

It's a sad deal all the way around and could have been avoided with a written living will. That's about as close to "for sure" as we're going to get in this case.

[Brock]

Opinion masquerading as fact. Typical.

[oldandslow]

Opinion masquerading as fact. Typical.

and your medical degree is from??????

That's what I thought.

[Brock]

and your medical degree is from??????

That's what I thought.

Oh. So a medical degree is necessary to cut and paste an article that supports your agenda? If I felt like playing the game, I could post several articles that refute the one in the topic header, but I don't feel like wasting my time, as I am now doing by replying to your dumb ass.

[BIG_DADDY]

Lethal injection already, good grief

[KCWolfman]

She isn't feeling anything, but we need to let her die so she can rest.

Anyone else see a conundrum besides myself?

[Simplex3]

She isn't feeling anything, but we need to let her die so she can rest.

Anyone else see a conundrum besides myself?

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/nealboortz/nb20050324.shtml

Because she’s earned it
Neal Boortz (archive)

March 24, 2005 | printer friendly version Print | email to a friend Send

I signed off my talk show yesterday, stuffed unused newspaper articles in my briefcase, and headed home. As I pulled out of the studio parking garage I did what I usually do … I tuned in to see what Rush was talking about. On this particular day I had no doubt as to what the subject would be, but I wanted to hear his latest thoughts.

My studio getaway was so efficient, so swift that I was on the road in time to hear Rush come out of his hourly newsbreak. Now … before I go any further, let it be clear; I’m a Rush Limbaugh’s fan. Nobody does talk radio better, not even me. I love what he’s done for our radio format, what he’s done for America, and what he’s done to the left. Liberals hate him. I love him for that too. Rush has made me money by elevating the talk radio format to the top of the heap, and saved me even more through the tax cuts that came from his promotion of the Republican agenda.

As Rush opens the hour he has a question; a question for “you liberals.” He wants to know “Why do you want Terri Schiavo to die?”

I’m on the opposite side of this issue from Rush, Hannity, Liddy and most of my not-liberal talk radio colleagues. So the question intrigued me. Why, indeed, do I want Terri Schiavo to die?

Rush’s question deserved an answer. Not some glib response, but an honest, heartfelt answer. So, … here’s mine.

I want Terri Schiavo to die because I believe she’s earned it.

I don’t view death as the end of the journey of a human soul. I view it as a transition. The God I believe in would not waste the total life experiences of a man or woman made in his image on a total and complete death; a dead end, if you will, with nothing to follow. I cannot believe that it is God’s plan that the life experiences of a man; wisdom gained, lessons learned and love experienced, should, upon death, disappear as if they never were. I believe that there’s something to follow the life we know on this earth; and I believe that most of the people fighting to keep the body of Terri Schiavo alive feel the same way.

These feelings give rise to some questions of my own; questions for the devoutly religious people who are fighting to keep Terri Schiavo alive. Do you believe in God’s promise of everlasting life? Do you believe that the reward for a life well spent on this earth is a life with God in heaven after you die? If you do, then a few more questions if you will.

Do you believe that the human soul can make the transition to everlasting life while the human body that carried that soul through life clings to life on this earth? If you do, then you must surely believe that Terri Schiavo has earned and is already enjoying her reward in heaven. That being the case, why is it so important to you that the now-unneeded body of Terri Schiavo is kept alive?

But perhaps you believe, as I do, that the human soul is so connected to and integrated with its earthly body that any transition will not be made until that body ceases functioning -- until death occurs.. That being the case, why do you so ardently desire that the soul of Terri Schiavo spend five, ten, perhaps 30 years or more trapped in a useless and non-functioning body, unable to move on to whatever reward awaits her? Isn’t 15 years enough?

Where do your concerns truly lie, with the eternal soul of Terri Schiavo, or with her earthly body?

Most of us are aware of the stories related by people who have near-death experiences. The usual scenario is a surgical procedure or some other medical emergency. These people describe a sensation of leaving their body at the very time the heart stops beating and the brain ceases functioning. They tell of floating above their body while watching doctors below working hard to resuscitate, to bring them back to life. As the heart once again starts beating and as the brain resumes its functions, they tell of a sensation of falling back into their own bodies to resume life.

We don’t hear from the patients upon whom resuscitation efforts are not successful. We don’t hear from them because they’ve left us. They’re gone to experience whatever lies beyond. They died.

Is it possible that the soul of Terri Schiavo has been floating – held in some prolonged and excruciating limbo – waiting for doctors to stop interfering with the process of her death? I believe that this is so, and that is why I have supported her husband’s desires to have her feeding tube removed. Terri Schiavo isn’t being murdered. She’s being allowed to die. Death will not be an end for Terri Schiavo, it will be a beginning. She will finally be allowed to claim the reward that ultimately we all seek, a reward she’s earned and deserves.

[KCWolfman]

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/nealboortz/nb20050324.shtml
Oh, so we are literalists and ephemeralists whenever it suits the circumstance, even when they are in direct conflict with one another?

[Simplex3]

Oh, so we are literalists and ephemeralists whenever it suits the circumstance, even when they are in direct conflict with one another?
You have some unimpeachable proof his theory is wrong and yours is right? My only point is this:

Nobody knows. Nobody. Not me, not you, not Bush, not the Pope. Nobody. So, since nobody knows, the person she chose to marry should be allowed to do what he sees fit, as is the law.

Had she been unmarried then her parents would get to make the decision. However TS chose to marry MS. She chose not to leave him while they were married. That is about all we KNOW.

I just don't see why this is such torture for everyone. Hell, there was a lady on the radio earlier (Rush?) crying about it. She's never met a single person involved but she's crying over this. Give me a break. Everyone needs to take a couple of steps back, take a deep breath, count to ten, and then go give their family a hug.

[Frankie]

She isn't feeling anything, but we need to let her die so she can rest.

Anyone else see a conundrum besides myself?

It's not a question of letting her rest. It's a question of respect. And yes, respect for the dead. She is already that. My issue with this is some two bit politicians dangling her body in front of us and trying to make political gains.

[KCWolfman]

It's not a question of letting her rest. It's a question of respect. And yes, respect for the dead. She is already that. My issue with this is some two bit politicians dangling her body in front of us and trying to make political gains.
Again, if the dead don't feel anything, why do they need respect? Political aspirations aside (because frankly, I find it obscene that the Reps are involved this deeply):

Why do we say she can't feel anything, but we are worried what she thinks about us?

[Simplex3]

Again, if the dead don't feel anything, why do they need respect? Political aspirations aside (because frankly, I find it obscene that the Reps are involved this deeply):

Why do we say she can't feel anything, but we are worried what she thinks about us?
I think the distinction is that her body doesn't feel anything but they care what her eternal soul thinks. I think respect for the body is showing respect for the person that used to be held in it.

[KCWolfman]

I think the distinction is that her body doesn't feel anything but they care what her eternal soul thinks. I think respect for the body is showing respect for the person that used to be held in it.
So we have not only determined what a body does or does not feel, but we also know what a soul feels and whether it truly exists?

Hardly the point to be made by people using logic and measurements, is it?

[Simplex3]

So we have not only determined what a body does or does not feel, but we also know what a soul feels and whether it truly exists?

Hardly the point to be made by people using logic and measurements, is it?
I don't believe in an afterlife. I think when the neurons stop firing it's over. I'm just trying to help express what I think others may be going after.

[KCWolfman]

I don't believe in an afterlife. I think when the neurons stop firing it's over. I'm just trying to help express what I think others may be going after.
Then what does it matter to you if she is keep in a box for the rest of eternity?

And the others you speak of honestly are being hypocritical if they use the stance of logic to explain why she is no longer alive and then the term "soul" to explain why we need to kill her.

[Frankie]

So we have not only determined what a body does or does not feel, but we also know what a soul feels and whether it truly exists?

Hardly the point to be made by people using logic and measurements, is it?

I don't disagree with your point. But you are trying to bring cold logic into a very heated belief system (that of the pro-lifers/Religious base). Wether she has a soul or not is another topic. But those who believe she does, have to at least believe that God wants it with him and that her soul is sad/unhappy/disrespected with her physical body strung up and manipulated by shady puppetmasters. They can't have it both ways. This is not a smorgasbord(sp) of beliefs.

[KCWolfman]

I don't disagree with your point. But you are trying to bring cold logic into a very heated belief system (that of the pro-lifers/Religious base). Wether she has a soul or not is another topic. But those who believe she does, have to at least believe that God wants it with him and that her soul is sad/unhappy/disrespected with her physical body strung up and manipulated by shady puppetmasters. They can't have it both ways. This is not a smorgasbord(sp) of beliefs.
No, they don't. There is no religious prescription that says "hey, if you are really really bad off, God wants you to hurry up and die and not take 15 years to do it." Obviously you have never read the Book of Job.

[Simplex3]

Then what does it matter to you if she is keep in a box for the rest of eternity?

And the others you speak of honestly are being hypocritical if they use the stance of logic to explain why she is no longer alive and then the term "soul" to explain why we need to kill her.
As much is it may infuriate some, here's my personal "dog in the hunt" so to speak.

I don't want to be kept, with little to no hope of recovery, in any state even remotely like TS for two reasons. First, it might be painful. I think scientists (doctors included) talk out their butts almost as often as they state real facts. Second, cost. I don't want my family or anyone else to bear some huge expense to keep some a sack of organs moist. I'm very much about quality of life, not quantity.

The fear that this case gives me is that someone other than my spouse, children, or parents may leave me like that. I know, "so write it down." That's great, and I have, but TS's parents have already laid the groundwork with "she would have changed her mind if she knew", "he abused her", and other seemingly absurd claims for which they have no evidence. If you believe in slippery slopes then you have to believe they go both ways.

[Simplex3]

Obviously you have never read the Book of Job.
Is that the one where they mention feeding tubes and using artificial means to support life?

[KCWolfman]

As much is it may infuriate some, here's my personal "dog in the hunt" so to speak.

I don't want to be kept, with little to no hope of recovery, in any state even remotely like TS for two reasons. First, it might be painful. I think scientists (doctors included) talk out their butts almost as often as they state real facts. Second, cost. I don't want my family or anyone else to bear some huge expense to keep some a sack of organs moist. I'm very much about quality of life, not quantity.

The fear that this case gives me is that someone other than my spouse, children, or parents may leave me like that. I know, "so write it down." That's great, and I have, but TS's parents have already laid the groundwork with "she would have changed her mind if she knew", "he abused her", and other seemingly absurd claims for which they have no evidence. If you believe in slippery slopes then you have to believe they go both ways.
So you believe Terri may actually be FEELING, but you don't believe she can feel anything but pain (if she is feeling)?

That's cool, and I don't agree or disagree with you, but your viewpoint makes more sense now.

[KCWolfman]

Is that the one where they mention feeding tubes and using artificial means to support life?
Ahh, degradation of religion when logic bleeds off again.

[Simplex3]

Ahh, degradation of religion when logic bleeds off again.
You keep talking about how your opponents can't have their cake and eat it too, yet you say God's will should be expressed but only when that means for people to live. Couldn't it be argued that God gave her that heart attack, intending to kill her, and we interfered?

[Simplex3]

So you believe Terri may actually be FEELING, but you don't believe she can feel anything but pain (if she is feeling)?

That's cool, and I don't agree or disagree with you, but your viewpoint makes more sense now.
I think (out of my butt, mind you) that feeling (pain, pressure, etc) happen seperately from emotions.

[KCWolfman]

You keep talking about how your opponents can't have their cake and eat it too, yet you say God's will should be expressed but only when that means for people to live. Couldn't it be argued that God gave her that heart attack, intending to kill her, and we interfered?
I never stated anything about God's will. Where did you make that horrible assumption?

And even if I did, what makes you believe that a Divine Creator of all things would be interfered by the minutae of anything as insignificant as ourselves?

[Simplex3]

I never stated anything about God's will. Where did you make that horrible assumption?
I've only read about 5,000 posts on this, I may well have mixed someone else's comments into yours.

[KCWolfman]

I think (out of my butt, mind you) that feeling (pain, pressure, etc) happen seperately from emotions.
I understand that viewpoint entirely.

As I said, it is a totally different argument, and one I won't parse here.

[KCWolfman]

I've only read about 5,000 posts on this, I may well have mixed someone else's comments into yours.
Cool. I go to great lengths to keep my religious viewpoints out of most debates so that people will actually be honest instead of debasing themselves by trying to humiliate my faith.

[Frankie]

No, they don't. There is no religious prescription that says "hey, if you are really really bad off, God wants you to hurry up and die and not take 15 years to do it." Obviously you have never read the Book of Job.

Job who Satan and God made a bet on and made him suffer unthinkable misery for 70 some years before God won the bet? I'm aware of the story. Part of the reason I tend to bypass "religion" and go straight to "God."

I don't think I'm making my point clear to you. So I simplify it as best I can:

- For those who believe in bible, an ascending soul and God's will: LET GOD DECIDE AND STAY OUT OF IT! Don't put a tube in. Let God take care of her.

-For those who believe in preciousness of "Life" but believe that it ends when the brain dies: THERE IS NO BRAIN LEFT!

-For those who don't believe in us being anything more than machines: LET THIS MACHINE SHUT DOWN! IT CAN'T BE FIXED.

- For those who believe in human dignity: DON'T MAKE A PUPPET OUT OF HER!

[KCWolfman]

Job who Satan and God made a bet on and made him suffer unthinkable misery for 70 some years before God won the bet? I'm aware of the story. Part of the reason I tend to bypass "religion" and go straight to "God."

I don't think I'm making my point clear to you. So I simplify it as best I can:

- For those who believe in bible, an ascending soul and God's will: LET GOD DECIDE AND STAY OUT OF IT! Don't put a tube in. Let God take care of her.

-For those who believe in preciousness of "Life" but believe that it ends when the brain dies: THERE IS NO BRAIN LEFT!

-For those who don't believe in us being anything more than machines: LET THIS MACHINE SHUT DOWN! IT CAN'T BE FIXED.

- For those who believe in human dignity: DON'T MAKE A PUPPET OUT OF HER!

Wow, Let God decide. I guess that is a reason to watch people drown and stop donating blood. Hell, kill all the doctors now. That way you send a whole bunch of people to Heaven and you stop letting them decide instead of God. In fact, I suggest that women stop feeding their babies and let God decide if they should live or not.

Forget any aspirations you have for theology without a serious primer first.

[4th and Long]

Irony. This whole situation is one textbook case in irony.

1. Woman has eating disorder.
2. Due to eating disorder, woman develops potassium imbalance.
3. Woman's heart stops due to potassium imbalance and causes brain damage.
4. Woman lingers in vegetative state for years on end because of eating disorder that brought on potassium imbalance that brought on heart stoppage.
4. Woman is going to die because she's not eating.

It's all about not eating. Irony.

While we are all feeling sorry for her parents and family, ask yourself this simple question. Who's fault is it that this woman ended up the way she did?

[Frankie]

Wow, Let God decide. I guess that is a reason to watch people drown and stop donating blood. Hell, kill all the doctors now. That way you send a whole bunch of people to Heaven and you stop letting them decide instead of God. In fact, I suggest that women stop feeding their babies and let God decide if they should live or not.

Forget any aspirations you have for theology without a serious primer first.

KCW, you are not being fair to my post. I covered it from any angle that one's belief system can look at the situation. You are just underlining one attacking one point.

[KCWolfman]

KCW, you are not being fair to my post. I covered it from any angle that one's belief system can look at the situation. You are just underlining one attacking one point.
That was the only post that concerned me. Your viewpoint regarding a religious stance is simply not correct for any Christian religion that I am aware.

Which is what this entire thread is about. Supposedly, we are told by Mr Logic that Schiavo can't feel anything. Then Mr. Logic takes off his mask and dons his Mr. Religion and says that Schiavo deserves respect and needs to be put to "rest".

You can't have it both ways.

[Taco John]

I'm pretty sickened by the Democrats performance during this whole ordeal.

[go bowe]

Oh, so we are literalists and ephemeralists whenever it suits the circumstance, even when they are in direct conflict with one another?okay, now...

you've got to stop using those big words...

it takes me too long to look them all up...

ephemeralists?

is that even a word?

[4th and Long]

ephemeralists?

is that even a word?
:shake: No. :shake:

However, ephemeral is a word.


e·phem·er·al

adj.

1. Lasting for a markedly brief time: “There remain some truths too ephemeral to be captured in the cold pages of a court transcript” (Irving R. Kaufman).

2.Living or lasting only for a day, as certain plants or insects do.

n.

A markedly short-lived thing.

[From Greek ephmeros : ep-, epi-, epi- + hmer, day.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
e·phemer·ali·ty or e·phemer·al·ness n.
e·phemer·al·ly adv.

ephemeral

adj : enduring a very short time; "the ephemeral joys of childhood"; "a passing fancy"; "youth's transient beauty"; "love is transitory but at is eternal"; "fugacious blossoms" [syn: passing, short-lived, transient, transitory, fugacious]

[go bowe]

:shake: No. :shake:

However, ephemeral is a word.


e·phem·er·al

adj.

1. Lasting for a markedly brief time: “There remain some truths too ephemeral to be captured in the cold pages of a court transcript” (Irving R. Kaufman).

2.Living or lasting only for a day, as certain plants or insects do.

n.

A markedly short-lived thing.

[From Greek ephmeros : ep-, epi-, epi- + hmer, day.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
e·phemer·ali·ty or e·phemer·al·ness n.
e·phemer·al·ly adv.

ephemeral

adj : enduring a very short time; "the ephemeral joys of childhood"; "a passing fancy"; "youth's transient beauty"; "love is transitory but at is eternal"; "fugacious blossoms" [syn: passing, short-lived, transient, transitory, fugacious]well, by golly...

who needs an online dictionary when forlong is around?

hmmm... does this mean your name is the opposite of ephemeral?

[4th and Long]

well, by golly...

who needs an online dictionary when forlong is around?
forlong? :spock:
hmmm... does this mean your name is the opposite of ephemeral?
My name, among other things. :p

[Archie F. Swin]

I Can't believe that the people whom are most thoroughly convinced of an afterlife or heaven are so hell-bent against Terri getting there. These people need to stop making this issue about them and let this woman pass on. It's Hospice's job to see that she does so without pain. Once she dies we can look back and see that we're a buch of jackasses.

[Frankie]

Here's another testimony for my thread topic:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex1.cfm?tbid=753


Schiavo Feels No Pain

By Peggy Peck , MedPage Today Staff Writer
Reviewed by Zalman S. Agus, MD; Emeritus Professor at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine.

Source News Article: CNN, MSN, Wall Street Journal

MedPage Today Action Points

News stories on the Schiavo case often contain confusing and misleading information. Explain the clinical aspects of the diagnosis of persistent vegetative state to patients who ask.


The Schiavo case has increased interest in living wills and advanced directives. Explain these options for end-of-life decisions to patients.

Review
CLEVELAND-Patients in a persistent vegetative state like Terri Schiavo are a subgroup who suffer severe anoxic brain injury and progress to a state of wakefulness without awareness.

It is judged to be permanent after three months if induced nontraumatically. After 3 months, recovery is rare and life expectancy is approximately 2 to 5 years.


Patients in a persistent vegetative state do not feel pain, nor do they "suffer," says Michael De Georgia, MD, head of the neurology-neurosurgery intensive care unit at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation here.


Pain, as well as suffering, requires consciousness, which is lacking in a person in a persistent vegetative state, says Dr. De Georgia.


"Certainly these patients don't suffer," he adds. "Suffering is really that whole emotional aspect of pain: fear, anxiety, panic surrounding pain. You have to have consciousness to experience these emotions. So just as a person in a persistent vegetative state can't experience pain because of a lack of consciousness, they also don't suffer."


The issue of the potential pain and suffering of Schiavo, 41, the Florida woman who doctors say has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years, has become a national cause celebre. On Friday doctors at a Florida hospice removed Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube after a Florida judge approved the action. Since then President Bush signed a rapidly approved law that puts her fate in the hands of a federal court judge. A federal judge in Florida then refused to order doctors to reinsert the feeding tube, and the Schindlers' lawyers said they intend to appeal immediately to the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals based in Atlanta.


This marks the third time Ms. Schiavo has been taken off parenteral nutrition during a long and contentious legal battle between her husband - Michael Schiavo who says his wife would want the tube removed - and Ms. Schiavo's parents who steadfastly maintain that their daughter would not want the tube removed. The parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, say their daughter responds to them and is not in a persistent vegetative state.


Dr. DeGeorgia says that a patient in a persistent vegetative state can experience arousal, meaning that the patient's eyes may be open and the patient may laugh, cry or appear to track someone who is in the room.


And that is what can be confusing for people, especially relatives, he says. "For example, a patient in persistent vegetative state will grasp your hand. In fact if you put anything into the patient's hand, the hand will grasp it. But this is a very primitive reaction. A newborn baby will grasp your finger, but there is no consciousness."


It is consciousness that determines whether one can "feel" pain in the sense that most people understand when they talk about feeling pain.


This doesn't mean that a patient like Terri Schiavo won't respond to pain stimulus - if you pinch her arm, she is like to flinch away. "That is called nociception," De Georgia says. "Tissue is damaged by the pinch, this generates a response in a receptor, which sends an impulse along the peripheral nerves. This impulse travels to the thalamus, which directs the arm to withdraw," he said. It is what is commonly called a reflex.


Pain, on the other hand, is the recognition of nociception by the nervous system, which sends the impulse to regions of the brain where consciousness exists. In the case of a severely brain injured person - one in a persistent vegetative state - those areas of consciousness have been destroyed, and as result "they don't 'feel' pain."

[Frankie]

Here's another testimony for my thread topic:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex1.cfm?tbid=753




Oh TJ... Where art thou?...

[Lzen]

I Can't believe that the people whom are most thoroughly convinced of an afterlife or heaven are so hell-bent against Terri getting there. These people need to stop making this issue about them and let this woman pass on. It's Hospice's job to see that she does so without pain. Once she dies we can look back and see that we're a buch of jackasses.

This is another reason why I'm so torn on this issue. This is a very good point. But at the same time, I don't know if maybe He wants us to save her. In either case, if she is allowed to die, it shouldn't be painful. Like Big Daddy said, lethal injection. That may sound barbaric but, I think it's much better than starving to death.


Oh and for those that claim she does not experience pain. Tell me why they are giving her morphine. That doesn't make sense to me if the so called experts are certain that she can't feel pain. I'm guessing that nobody can really say either way 100% for certain.

[patteeu]

This is another reason why I'm so torn on this issue. This is a very good point. But at the same time, I don't know if maybe He wants us to save her. In either case, if she is allowed to die, it shouldn't be painful. Like Big Daddy said, lethal injection. That may sound barbaric but, I think it's much better than starving to death.


Oh and for those that claim she does not experience pain. Tell me why they are giving her morphine. That doesn't make sense to me if the so called experts are certain that she can't feel pain. I'm guessing that nobody can really say either way 100% for certain.

Nobody can ever say either way 100% for certain. Medical science is inexact. The answer to your question though is that administering pain meds is SOP.

It can serve two purposes. It can provide comfort in the off chance that there is some kind of "awareness" left in TS, and equally importantly in this case, it can give comfort to those who are allowing their emotions to overcome their reason and who are imagining what it must feel like to be fully conscious and be starved to death. And, truth be told, this gives the doctors a tool for hastening death in end-of-life situations without blatently poisoning the patient or otherwise actively euthanizing them. (This entire paragraph is JMO).

[Simplex3]

This is another reason why I'm so torn on this issue. This is a very good point. But at the same time, I don't know if maybe He wants us to save her. In either case, if she is allowed to die, it shouldn't be painful. Like Big Daddy said, lethal injection. That may sound barbaric but, I think it's much better than starving to death.


Oh and for those that claim she does not experience pain. Tell me why they are giving her morphine. That doesn't make sense to me if the so called experts are certain that she can't feel pain. I'm guessing that nobody can really say either way 100% for certain.
It's impossible to prove a negative. You can't prove the universe is endless, you can only prove you haven't found the end. Just like with TS, we can't prove she doesn't feel pain, we can only prove that the parts of the brain we know to control pain don't function, as we understand functioning brains, in her. Someone on here earlier was saying that morphine is standard operating procedure for people in a hospice that are nearing the end unless they refuse it, regardless of their current state. I would like to think that someone would have the common decency to just turn up the morphine drip until it was over.

[Electric]

It's not a question of letting her rest. It's a question of respect. And yes, respect for the dead. She is already that. My issue with this is some two bit politicians dangling her body in front of us and trying to make political gains.

Is your middle name Adolph?

Harry Edwards, UC Berkely, said in the 70's that this would come about. We have decided who has value to our society and will chose to eliminate those that do not measure up. (not an exact quote, but the basic concept is there).

Now it is someone that is in a vegative state, next it will be someone with alzheimers, then it will be the Jjews, then it will be the Christians, then it will be the kids with ADHD.

It's a bad precident.

[Soupnazi]

I've said before that her liquified brain is probably incapable of registering pain, hunger, etc, therefore this current process is pretty humane. Not what Tom DeLay, Bill Frist and brothers Bush want to will tell you while they manipulate this into another election issue.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20050324/ts_usatoday/schiavonotlikelytoexperienceapainfuldeathneurologistssay

Schiavo not likely to experience a painful death, neurologists say



Regardless of your stance on this case, I think you're an idiot to believe these doctors that can't possibly know what this woman is feeling. These same arrogant know-it-alls told the world years ago that bleeding someone was the way to treat infection.

[Taco John]

It's not a question of letting her rest. It's a question of respect. And yes, respect for the dead. She is already that. My issue with this is some two bit politicians dangling her body in front of us and trying to make political gains.



Exactly what I thought... You're issue is with the Republicans. Whatever will make Bush and Tom Delay look bad, you are for. You don't give a damn about this issue past that.

Pepper in some words like "rest" and "respect," and then hammer away at the Republicans for "dangling" her body... Nice how you equated "saving her life" to that... Oh wait... That's right. She's not "alive alive." She's just "a shell." Thanks for your compassion. You've equated this woman to being a crab.

Stick with the Republican hate, and leave Terri alone. You're not worthy.

[patteeu]

Is your middle name Adolph?

Harry Edwards, UC Berkely, said in the 70's that this would come about. We have decided who has value to our society and will chose to eliminate those that do not measure up. (not an exact quote, but the basic concept is there).

Now it is someone that is in a vegative state, next it will be someone with alzheimers, then it will be the Jjews, then it will be the Christians, then it will be the kids with ADHD.

It's a bad precident.

Can we move the kids with ADHD ahead in the queue? Those little buggers are driving me crazy.

[Simplex3]

Is your middle name Adolph?

Harry Edwards, UC Berkely, said in the 70's that this would come about. We have decided who has value to our society and will chose to eliminate those that do not measure up. (not an exact quote, but the basic concept is there).

Now it is someone that is in a vegative state, next it will be someone with alzheimers, then it will be the Jjews, then it will be the Christians, then it will be the kids with ADHD.

It's a bad precident.
It's a bad precident to let dead people die? How long are we supposed to keep people hooked up to what kind of machines? Where do you draw the line? I can keep you "alive" for a couple of hundred years if by "alive" you mean "moist with electrical impulses".

[Taco John]

It's a bad precident to let dead people die? How long are we supposed to keep people hooked up to what kind of machines? Where do you draw the line? I can keep you "alive" for a couple of hundred years if by "alive" you mean "moist with electrical impulses".



You can?

[Electric]

It's a bad precident to let dead people die? How long are we supposed to keep people hooked up to what kind of machines? Where do you draw the line? I can keep you "alive" for a couple of hundred years if by "alive" you mean "moist with electrical impulses".

So you would rather give them the "death drug" like Kevorkian rather than keep them alive? What about those few that have come back from the "veg" state and lived without extrodinary means?

[BIG_DADDY]

Frankie,

Shouldn't you just cut off her head and offer up to Allah with her being an infidel and all? :hmmm:

[patteeu]

So you would rather give them the "death drug" like Kevorkian rather than keep them alive? What about those few that have come back from the "veg" state and lived without extrodinary means?

Can you name a single person who has ever come back from a 15 year PVS?

[BIG_DADDY]

Can you name a single person who has ever come back from a 15 year PVS?

Thank you, what a waste. Think of all the money that has been spent keeping her alive. Think how many people could have benefitted from that. The case to keep her alive is ridiculous, let her go already.

[Electric]

Can you name a single person who has ever come back from a 15 year PVS?

I don't know what the time frame was, I'm sure it wasn't 15 years, but there have been people that have been declared "brain dead" that recovered.

But the point is, who are we to decide?

Could you/would you "murder" your wife/husband because they were not considered viable?

I mean, we do it now thousands times a day. Someone has determined that life begins at birth not conception so abortions are done on a wholesale basis. When we have made the determination that a life is not worth keeping (or trying to keep) and we put them down like an animal we have determined that everyone can be judged as to their worth and be put down. Jews, Christians, Democrats, Republicans, Blacks, Chinese, Muslim, etc.

Who are we to decide? Hitler?

[Electric]

Thank you, what a waste. Think of all the money that has been spent keeping her alive. Think how many people could have benefitted from that. The case to keep her alive is ridiculous, let her go already.

I can appreciate your thought process on this, but like I've said before. Who are to decide who lives and dies?

[Simplex3]

So you would rather give them the "death drug" like Kevorkian rather than keep them alive? What about those few that have come back from the "veg" state and lived without extrodinary means?
If they ask for a rat poison cocktail I'm all for giving it to them. I'm not for killing people that express a will to live. It's the ones in the middle that make this hard, those who have gone into a state that makes them unable to make the call themselves.

As for vegatative people waking up, I'm pretty sure I read the longest anyone has ever gone and come out was less than 2 years (20 months). 15 years is a damn sight longer, don't you think?

[Simplex3]

I can appreciate your thought process on this, but like I've said before. Who are to decide who lives and dies?
1. We aren't deciding, her nearest relative and two other people relayed that she, TS, decided.

2. Who does decide who lives and dies? God? If that's the case, weren't we f**king with God's will when we recessutated her? She was clinically dead and we brought her back. Isn't that "deciding who lives and dies"?

I think it's sad that as a culture we have such a fear of death. Let it be known to all of you on this board: Death is coming. It will get you. It will get everyone you love. Maybe not today, maybe not this year, but it will eventually get us all. And that is Ok, it's part of the cycle of life. Celebrate who they were when they were here and then spend your time raising the next generation, those who will eventually bury you and celebrate your life.

[BIG_DADDY]

I can appreciate your thought process on this, but like I've said before. Who are to decide who lives and dies?

Hey as long as you got the money to keep her alive go for it. Who am I to tell somebody else how they should spend their money. If you don't have the money though who are you to tell me where my money should go? I have no idea how much it cost to keep this vegetable alive for 15 years but my guess is the number is astronomical. What amazes me is how compassionate we are and how much common sence most of us have when putting down our own pets but when it comes to people we get retarded.

[Simplex3]

Hey as long as you got the money to keep her alive go for it. Who am I to tell somebody else how they should spend their money. If you don't have the money though who are you to tell me where my money should go? I have no idea how much it cost to keep this vegetable alive for 15 years but my guess is the number is astronomical. What amazes me is how compassionate we are and how much common sence most of us have when putting down our own pets but when it comes to people we get retarded.
Her current hospice care is $80k/yr. The care in years leading up to it were significantly higher due to various therepy and hospital stays.

You could have raised 10 children and sent them all to college for what has been spent on TS. NOT SAYING THAT SPENDING IT ON HER WAS WRONG, just pointing out that you could have.

[BIG_DADDY]

Her current hospice care is $80k/yr. The care in years leading up to it were significantly higher due to various therepy and hospital stays.

You could have raised 10 children and sent them all to college for what has been spent on TS. NOT SAYING THAT SPENDING IT ON HER WAS WRONG, just pointing out that you could have.

Or you could sponsor a child for month for $30. What does that come out to be?

[Frankie]

It's a bad precident to let dead people die? How long are we supposed to keep people hooked up to what kind of machines? Where do you draw the line? I can keep you "alive" for a couple of hundred years if by "alive" you mean "moist with electrical impulses".

EXCELLENT. :thumb: Especially that last example.

[BIG_DADDY]

Or you could sponsor a child for month for $30. What does that come out to be?


You could supply 1,000 kids with food and supplies for 40 months on what we wasted tormenting this soul for 15 years. That's just the hospice alone.

[BIG_DADDY]

EXCELLENT. :thumb: Especially that last example.

Yea right, why don't you get back on the wrong side of the issue where you belong pal. ROFL

[Frankie]

Who are we to decide? Hitler?
What's up with your Hitler fettish? :shrug: That is a stupid comparison. Nobody wants to excecute Terri Schiavo. All we are saying is respect her enough to move on with dignity. :rolleyes:

[Demonpenz]

you could keep endelt drunk for a week with the chedda spent

[Frankie]

1. We aren't deciding, her nearest relative and two other people relayed that she, TS, decided.

2. Who does decide who lives and dies? God? If that's the case, weren't we f**king with God's will when we recessutated her? She was clinically dead and we brought her back. Isn't that "deciding who lives and dies"?

I think it's sad that as a culture we have such a fear of death. Let it be known to all of you on this board: Death is coming. It will get you. It will get everyone you love. Maybe not today, maybe not this year, but it will eventually get us all. And that is Ok, it's part of the cycle of life. Celebrate who they were when they were here and then spend your time raising the next generation, those who will eventually bury you and celebrate your life.

Damn!! Just when I repped you for a previous post here, you had to do one better! I love the thoughtfulness of #2. I have thought about exactly the same thing. I may have even brought it up in this forum. But, I'm sure not as eloquently as yours. Good job. :thumb:

[Frankie]

you could keep endelt drunk for a week with the chedda spent
ROFL ROFL ROFL

[BIG_DADDY]

Damn!! Just when I repped you for a previous post here, you had to do one better! I love the thoughtfulness of #2. I have thought about exactly the same thing. I may have even brought it up in this forum. But, I'm sure not as eloquently as yours. Good job. :thumb:

Uhhh ohhhhhhhhhh, you gotta a stalker dude.

[Taco John]

What's up with your Hitler fettish? :shrug: That is a stupid comparison. Nobody wants to excecute Terri Schiavo. All we are saying is respect her enough to move on with dignity. :rolleyes:


And yet she's being executed in a way we wouldn't even treat our worst wass murderers...

And I don't think the Hitler comparison should be completely discounted.. Hitler made some of the very arguments I've seen people on the left make during this ordeal.

[BIG_DADDY]

And yet she's being executed in a way we wouldn't even treat our worst wass murderers...

And I don't think the Hitler comparison should be completely discounted.. Hitler made some of the very arguments I've seen people on the left make during this ordeal.

I didn't realize we executed wass murderers. Are those fish or are you just related to Elmer Fudd?

[Kraut]

"liquified brain is probably incapable of registering pain, hunger, etc"

Nice heart felt description!! Thanks for the medical lesson DR. Frankie :shake:

[patteeu]

I don't know what the time frame was, I'm sure it wasn't 15 years, but there have been people that have been declared "brain dead" that recovered.

So you can't name a single one? I would say that the line of argument that is based on Terri Schiavo possibly "come[ing] back from the 'veg' state and liv[ing] without extrodinary means" is pretty weak wouldn't you?

But the point is, who are we to decide?

Could you/would you "murder" your wife/husband because they were not considered viable?

No, that's not the point at all.

Would you impale your wife with a needle in the gut while she was screaming at you to stop just because you didn't think her decision to starve herself was a good one and you were big enough to overpower her? How heroic.

I mean, we do it now thousands times a day. Someone has determined that life begins at birth not conception so abortions are done on a wholesale basis. When we have made the determination that a life is not worth keeping (or trying to keep) and we put them down like an animal we have determined that everyone can be judged as to their worth and be put down. Jews, Christians, Democrats, Republicans, Blacks, Chinese, Muslim, etc.

Who are we to decide? Hitler?

Where do you draw the line? If Terri Schiavo had had a living will expressing the desire to be allowed to die under the present conditions would that be enough or would you force her to live anyway? If her desire to be allowed to die was 100% clear and she was in a state of constant, severe, unabateable pain that was expected to last for decades, would you force nutrients on her so she couldn't die? If the technology existed to keep her alive but it would cost the GDP of New Mexico to do so, is it your position that society needs to buck up and pay for it or would you suddenly go Hitler on us? Where do you draw the line?

[Joe Seahawk]

This is off the subject line a bit.. But I have a confession.. I came across a Terry Schiavo photoshop thread on a different message board that really made me laugh (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/SoonerGH/hippos.jpg) a time or two..

If you ever find out my brain gets damaged and I'm messed up like she is.. Please, by all means do a photo shop thread and have some fun..I'm all for it..

[Taco John]

Photoshop Joe Seahawks Colonoscopy!

[Taco John]

So you can't name a single one? I would say that the line of argument that is based on Terri Schiavo possibly "come[ing] back from the 'veg' state and liv[ing] without extrodinary means" is pretty weak wouldn't you?



No, that's not the point at all.

Would you impale your wife with a needle in the gut while she was screaming at you to stop just because you didn't think her decision to starve herself was a good one and you were big enough to overpower her? How heroic.



Where do you draw the line? If Terri Schiavo had had a living will expressing the desire to be allowed to die under the present conditions would that be enough or would you force her to live anyway? If her desire to be allowed to die was 100% clear and she was in a state of constant, severe, unabateable pain that was expected to last for decades, would you force nutrients on her so she couldn't die? If the technology existed to keep her alive but it would cost the GDP of New Mexico to do so, is it your position that society needs to buck up and pay for it or would you suddenly go Hitler on us? Where do you draw the line?


All I want is a second finding of fact. When we execute a murderer, they get more than one finding of fact. I think Michael Schaivo is full of shit, and as far as I'm concerned, he's a murderer. A second finding of fact would clear it whether he is or isn't...

[Simplex3]

All I want is a second finding of fact. When we execute a murderer, they get more than one finding of fact. I think Michael Schaivo is full of shit, and as far as I'm concerned, he's a murderer. A second finding of fact would clear it whether he is or isn't...
How many do we need? What if the second one comes out the same as the first? Do we then require a third? We just keep going after this until you get the result you want?

[Electric]

So you can't name a single one? I would say that the line of argument that is based on Terri Schiavo possibly "come[ing] back from the 'veg' state and liv[ing] without extrodinary means" is pretty weak wouldn't you?



No, that's not the point at all.

Would you impale your wife with a needle in the gut while she was screaming at you to stop just because you didn't think her decision to starve herself was a good one and you were big enough to overpower her? How heroic.



Where do you draw the line? If Terri Schiavo had had a living will expressing the desire to be allowed to die under the present conditions would that be enough or would you force her to live anyway? If her desire to be allowed to die was 100% clear and she was in a state of constant, severe, unabateable pain that was expected to last for decades, would you force nutrients on her so she couldn't die? If the technology existed to keep her alive but it would cost the GDP of New Mexico to do so, is it your position that society needs to buck up and pay for it or would you suddenly go Hitler on us? Where do you draw the line?

Your comments are assinine.

You have no clue as to what is going on.

[patteeu]

Your comments are assinine.

You have no clue as to what is going on.

So you don't have an answer? LOL

[Taco John]

How many do we need? What if the second one comes out the same as the first? Do we then require a third? We just keep going after this until you get the result you want?


A rapist who cuts the throats of his six year old victims gets more due process than this woman...

[Mr. Kotter]

A rapist who cuts the throats of his six year old victims gets more due process than this woman...

Sad isn't it? :shake:

[Electric]

So you don't have an answer? LOL

You do not understand the situation, arguing with you would be pointless.

[Simplex3]

A rapist who cuts the throats of his six year old victims gets more due process than this woman...
Just tell me how many times we have to go through this whole mess before you'd be happy. It's a simple question that can be answered with a single number.

[Mark M]

A rapist who cuts the throats of his six year old victims gets more due process than this woman...
Exactly how many judges need to review this case before you'll accept their decision? Four? Ten? Twenty nine?

Or just as many as are needed before a judge agrees with those who are convinced this woman is actually "alive" when 99% of doctors who've reviewed the case agree that all that is left is a body?

MM
~~:shrug:

[patteeu]

You do not understand the situation, arguing with you would be pointless.

Then why don't you expose me instead of tucking your tail and running? It should be pretty easy if I don't understand the situation. But then maybe it's really you who doesn't understand the situation. You just regurgitate the things you hear from your thought leaders but when you are challenged you don't, personally, have the ability to defend those "beliefs." It's not that uncommon for youngsters who are just starting to think for themselves. It's a little like premature ejaculation of the mind. I call it premature bloviation and you've got a textbook case.

I guess when the only arrow in your quiver is to compare positions you don't like to those of Hitler, you don't really have much worthwhile to contribute anyway. Come on back when you think you can handle a two-way discussion.

[go bowe]

So you don't have an answer? LOLassinine!!

you assinine!!



i guess that makes me assiten... :( :( :(

[Saulbadguy]

Why don't you ask what she thinks about it?

http://durrrrr.blogspot.com/

Warning..do not click if you are easily offended.

[go bowe]

Then why don't you expose me instead of tucking your tail and running? It should be pretty easy if I don't understand the situation. But then maybe it's really you who doesn't understand the situation. You just regurgitate the things you hear from your thought leaders but when you are challenged you don't, personally, have the ability to defend those "beliefs." It's not that uncommon for youngsters who are just starting to think for themselves. It's a little like premature ejaculation of the mind. I call it premature bloviation and you've got a textbook case.

I guess when the only arrow in your quiver is to compare positions you don't like to those of Hitler, you don't really have much worthwhile to contribute anyway. Come on back when you think you can handle a two-way discussion.well, c'mon now...

everybody knows that all you conservatives are nazis... :harumph: :harumph: :harumph:

[BIG_DADDY]

Exactly how many judges need to review this case before you'll accept their decision? Four? Ten? Twenty nine?

Or just as many as are needed before a judge agrees with those who are convinced this woman is actually "alive" when 99% of doctors who've reviewed the case agree that all that is left is a body?

MM
~~:shrug:

Amen, how much more money needs to be spent supporting this corpse and her case when there are millions in need on this planet. Flippin ridiculous.

[Bowser]

I haven't read all the multiple threads about the Schiavo case, but has anybody gotten into the quality vs. quantity aspect of it yet?

[patteeu]

well, c'mon now...

everybody knows that all you conservatives are nazis... :harumph: :harumph: :harumph:

You know, now that you mention it, it does seem like I'm always on the side of the nazis in these political debates. But at least I'm consistently opposed to the stalinists and I'm usually at odds with the pedophiles, the jihadists, Jettio, and the soccer moms. :shrug: :p

[Simplex3]

Why don't you ask what she thinks about it?

http://durrrrr.blogspot.com/

Warning..do not click if you are easily offended.
ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

THAT is f**king funny.

[go bowe]

You know, now that you mention it, it does seem like I'm always on the side of the nazis in these political debates. But at least I'm consistently opposed to the stalinists and I'm usually at odds with the pedophiles, the jihadists, Jettio, and the soccer moms. :shrug: :pusually? :spock: :spock: :spock:








btw, it was very thoughtful of you to remember to include jettio...

[Electric]

Then why don't you expose me instead of tucking your tail and running? It should be pretty easy if I don't understand the situation. But then maybe it's really you who doesn't understand the situation. You just regurgitate the things you hear from your thought leaders but when you are challenged you don't, personally, have the ability to defend those "beliefs." It's not that uncommon for youngsters who are just starting to think for themselves. It's a little like premature ejaculation of the mind. I call it premature bloviation and you've got a textbook case.

I guess when the only arrow in your quiver is to compare positions you don't like to those of Hitler, you don't really have much worthwhile to contribute anyway. Come on back when you think you can handle a two-way discussion.

My time is more valuable than to try to convince you of your shortsightedness.

This isn't a two way discussion. I have a point to make and you refuse to see the point because it doesn't meet with your beliefs. I don't have the time or need to prove you wrong. You can't see because you refuse to open your eyes.

[Taco John]

Exactly how many judges need to review this case before you'll accept their decision? Four? Ten? Twenty nine?




How about one challenge to the original finding of fact like any child murderer would get? Actually, a person who sexually assaults and murders a child gets more protection from the courts than anyone is asking for Terri. Like I said... Any rapist who cuts the throats of his six year old victims gets more due process than this woman...

[patteeu]

My time is more valuable than to try to convince you of your shortsightedness.

If you had time to type this post, you had time to answer my question. I'm going to have to call :BS: and point out that the more likely reason you're dodging me is that you don't have a very good answer.

This isn't a two way discussion. I have a point to make and you refuse to see the point because it doesn't meet with your beliefs. I don't have the time or need to prove you wrong. You can't see because you refuse to open your eyes.

If you can't support your point, you aren't making it. If your best shot is to say it all looks like something Hitler would do, you aren't making it. Someone who has a little more horsepower between their ears might be able to make a coherent argument out of the position you are taking, but as far as I can see, you are just reading a script. Go on with your monologue then, but don't expect to be taken seriously.

[go bowe]

If you had time to type this post, you had time to answer my question. I'm going to have to call :BS: and point out that the more likely reason you're dodging me is that you don't have a very good answer.



If you can't support your point, you aren't making it. If your best shot is to say it all looks like something Hitler would do, you aren't making it. Someone who has a little more horsepower between their ears might be able to make a coherent argument out of the position you are taking, but as far as I can see, you are just reading a script. Go on with your monologue then, but don't expect to be taken seriously.what?

are you crazy?

there's gotta be somebody around here who takes him seriously...

surely there's somebody...

anybody?

hello?

is there anybody out there?

is this thing working?

[Electric]

If you had time to type this post, you had time to answer my question. I'm going to have to call :BS: and point out that the more likely reason you're dodging me is that you don't have a very good answer.



Unlike you, I have a real job that doesn't place me sitting in front of a computer 8 hours a day. I actually work for a living.

As for your insults about supporting my point. My point is; "Who are we to make a life and death determination about anyone?"

You surely don't have a problem with abortion, your attitude and comments prove that.

When they come for you because you have no value to the human race in someone's opinion, who will be there to defend you?

My basic point is that we have started giving away the right of life. It now resides in the offices of the doctors that commit murder as a convienience to those that don't know how to control their urges. Abortion is used as an "oops" pill. I forgot to use protection so I'll kill my mistake.

patteeu is no longer a viable human being because (Name your favorite reason) he doesn't fit the mould set up by the current authority. Take him out, he is worthless. (But then we all knew that.)

[go bowe]

nimrod? ROFL ROFL ROFL

[Frankie]

what?

are you crazy?

there's gotta be somebody around here who takes him seriously...

surely there's somebody...

anybody?

hello?

is there anybody out there?

is this thing working?

ROFL ROFL

[go bowe]

ROFL ROFLyou know that shitforbrains electric neg repped me?

of course, it didn't lower my rep count by even one point, but he called me "nimrod" to boot...

nimrod?

now that's some high quality smack... :shake: :shake: :shake:

[frazod]

you know that shitforbrains electric neg repped me?

of course, it didn't lower my rep count by even one point, but he called me "nimrod" to boot...

nimrod?

now that's some high quality smack... :shake: :shake: :shake:
I assuem you'll fire back, right? You should be able to nuke two little green boxes. :evil:

[patteeu]

Unlike you, I have a real job that doesn't place me sitting in front of a computer 8 hours a day. I actually work for a living.

A real job, huh? Now that IS impressive. I bet there aren't very many people around here with real jobs. Good for you. :rolleyes:

As for your insults about supporting my point. My point is; "Who are we to make a life and death determination about anyone?"

That's not really a point, it's a question. We are the cop who decides to pull the trigger when he sees the suspect make a move that looks like it could be threatening (whether it is in reality or not). We are the doctor who decides to stop CPR on the arresting patient when he decides it's a lost cause (whether it is or not). We are the military pilot who drops his payload on what he believes is a legitimate military target (whether it is or not). We are the mother who has to choose which of her two children she is going to let go when the tsunami is threatening to pull them both from her grasp if she doesn't get a better grip on one of them (whether it is or not). We are the jury who determine that the murder defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and condemn him/her to death (whether he/she really did it or not). We are lots of different people, in lots of different situations who make life or death determinations all the time. Does your question have anything to do with the Schiavo case?

You surely don't have a problem with abortion, your attitude and comments prove that.

You have the confidence of a madman, but of course, my attitude and comments prove nothing of the sort.

When they come for you because you have no value to the human race in someone's opinion, who will be there to defend you?

Well I hope it's someone who makes a more convincing argument than you do. If not, I'm SOL.

My basic point is that we have started giving away the right of life. It now resides in the offices of the doctors that commit murder as a convienience to those that don't know how to control their urges. Abortion is used as an "oops" pill. I forgot to use protection so I'll kill my mistake.

Well at least this time, you actually made a point, but you drifted away from the Schiavo case and into abortion. Which one do you want to talk about? Are you from the every-sperm-is-sacred wing of the church or the contraception-is-OK-but-conception-changes-everything wing or do you favor exceptions for rape or incest or the life of the mother (or some combination thereof)? Since you won't tell me where you draw the line for end-of-life matters, maybe you will tell me about your specific views on the more familiar subject of abortion. Don't worry, I won't compare you to Hitler. That would be lame.

[patteeu]

I assuem you'll fire back, right? You should be able to nuke two little green boxes. :evil:

I noticed that she's gone down from 3 green boxes to 2 today, but I don't know who popped her.

[BIG_DADDY]

I think it's sad that as a culture we have such a fear of death. Let it be known to all of you on this board: Death is coming. It will get you. It will get everyone you love. Maybe not today, maybe not this year, but it will eventually get us all. And that is Ok, it's part of the cycle of life. Celebrate who they were when they were here and then spend your time raising the next generation, those who will eventually bury you and celebrate your life.

I have been saying this exact thing since I was in gradeschool. Please don't morn my death, celebrate my life. The more I get to know you dude the more I fell that we are kindered spirits. Ask lil momma I say this exact same thing almost word for word every time somebody dies. We gotta hang out and do some partying some day dude I am going to make it a priority.

[Simplex3]

I have been saying this exact thing since I was in gradeschool. Please don't morn my death, celebrate my life. The more I get to know you dude the more I fell that we are kindered spirits. Ask lil momma I say this exact same thing almost word for word every time somebody dies. We gotta hang out and do some partying some day dude I am going to make it a priority.
Just don't bring that dog. It looks like it would hump my leg. :hmmm:

Seriously, if you're ever going to be in KC just give me a week's notice, we'll grab some BBQ and a couple of beers. You're one of the posters I respect most. If, by some miracle, I wind up in the CA I'll be sure to let you know ahead of time. There's an off chance we'll be opening up shop out there in the next year but I don't know if I'll need to go or just my partner, the sales puke.

[circle-jerk off] :D

[Electric]

Well at least this time, you actually made a point, but you drifted away from the Schiavo case and into abortion. Which one do you want to talk about? Are you from the every-sperm-is-sacred wing of the church or the contraception-is-OK-but-conception-changes-everything wing or do you favor exceptions for rape or incest or the life of the mother (or some combination thereof)? Since you won't tell me where you draw the line for end-of-life matters, maybe you will tell me about your specific views on the more familiar subject of abortion. Don't worry, I won't compare you to Hitler. That would be lame.

They are the one and the same. The value of life. That's the point that you have trouble of handling. Taking life is wrong. Letting life go is another subject. Who are YOU to make that decision?

[patteeu]

They are the one and the same. The value of life. That's the point that you have trouble of handling. Taking life is wrong. Letting life go is another subject. Who are YOU to make that decision?

All they are doing in the TS case is letting life go.

I already answered your question in general terms. I haven't had to make a life-or-death decision, personally.

[Simplex3]

Who are YOU to make that decision?
We're the people who are still alive. That's who we are to make that decision. "Life is for the living".

[Coach]

So far, CNN is reporting that Terri might be on her final hours, about 30 minutes ago. And get this. Michael has denied Terri's parents any access to be on her side on Terri's final hours as for right now.

[patteeu]

So far, CNN is reporting that Terri might be on her final hours, about 30 minutes ago. And get this. Michael has denied Terri's parents any access to be on her side on Terri's final hours as for right now.

It's hard for me to blame him for any animosity he feels toward her parents at this point. It would be nice if he could overcome those feelings and have mercy on them, but it would be hard after the approach they have taken (or that they have allowed their opportunist allies to take).

[Frankie]

They are the one and the same. The value of life. That's the point that you have trouble of handling. Taking life is wrong. Letting life go is another subject. Who are YOU to make that decision?
And "who are YOU" to stick a tube in her and interfere in the course of life?

I don't get it with the blind "pro-life" pseudonobility. :shake:

[Mr. Kotter]

....And get this. Michael has denied Terri's parents any access to be on her side on Terri's final hours as for right now.

Unbelievable. But not surprising. He should be awarded Supreme Asshat of the Year honors for his conduct in all of this.... :shake:

[Mark M]

Unbelievable. But not surprising. He should be awarded Supreme Asshat of the Year honors for his conduct in all of this.... :shake:

I don't disagree, but her parents are probably the runners-up ...

MM
~~:sulk:

[Mr. Kotter]

I don't disagree, but her parents are probably the runners-up ...

MM
~~:sulk:


They haven't exactly acted in a dignified matter, either. Her husband....I've got a funny feeling about "poetic justice" maybe evening things out there somehow. Just a feeling though.... :shake:

[patteeu]

They haven't exactly acted in a dignified matter, either. Her husband....I've got a funny feeling about "poetic justice" maybe evening things out there somehow. Just a feeling though.... :shake:

What kind of poetic justice are you talking about? If it involves murder or assault, do you condemn it?

[Mr. Kotter]

What kind of poetic justice are you talking about? If it involves murder or assault, do you condemn it?

No, no, no....not THAT kind of poetic justice. I would definitely condemn that.

I would be more inclined to suspect some divine or natural justice. I just believe we reap what we sow...

[patteeu]

No, no, no....not THAT kind of poetic justice. I would definitely condemn that.

I would be more inclined to suspect some divine or natural justice. I just believe we reap what we sow...

OK, that's cool. :thumb:

I've seen others (not necessarily on this board) suggesting that vigilante justice would be appropriate so I was just checking.

[Electric]

And "who are YOU" to stick a tube in her and interfere in the course of life?

I don't get it with the blind "pro-life" pseudonobility. :shake:

First off Bucko, I didn't put the tube in. Even if I did, what would make it OK to kill her?

For your information, the practice of putting a feeding tube in a patient is very common practice. As a matter of fact, the Pope now is being fed through a tube. Should they have let him die because of his current illness?

Feeding a person that cannot eat due to whatever trauma caused their condition is an acceptable practice. Once inserted they commonly don't remove it until the person has healed and can eat or when they die.

If YOU Frankie have a medical problem and cannot eat, do you want your family to put a DNR on you and further let you starve to death even though you might be healthy otherwise?

I know that is a bad situation to describe as you are obviously already in advanced stages of being brain dead now.

[Electric]

All they are doing in the TS case is letting life go.

I already answered your question in general terms. I haven't had to make a life-or-death decision, personally.

Could you? Would you?

[Electric]

We're the people who are still alive. That's who we are to make that decision. "Life is for the living".

You, as a living soul, can make that decision for yourself. I don't think you or I have the option to choose for anyone else.

[KingPriest2]

First off Bucko, I didn't put the tube in. Even if I did, what would make it OK to kill her?

For your information, the practice of putting a feeding tube in a patient is very common practice. As a matter of fact, the Pope now is being fed through a tube. Should they have let him die because of his current illness?

Feeding a person that cannot eat due to whatever trauma caused their condition is an acceptable practice. Once inserted they commonly don't remove it until the person has healed and can eat or when they die.

If YOU Frankie have a medical problem and cannot eat, do you want your family to put a DNR on you and further let you starve to death even though you might be healthy otherwise?

I know that is a bad situation to describe as you are obviously already in advanced stages of being brain dead now.


She was declared a vegetable and the Pope has not . Big difference. She had not chance of recovering.

[Frankie]

First off Bucko, I didn't put the tube in. Even if I did, what would make it OK to kill her?

For your information, the practice of putting a feeding tube in a patient is very common practice. As a matter of fact, the Pope now is being fed through a tube. Should they have let him die because of his current illness?

Feeding a person that cannot eat due to whatever trauma caused their condition is an acceptable practice. Once inserted they commonly don't remove it until the person has healed and can eat or when they die.

If YOU Frankie have a medical problem and cannot eat, do you want your family to put a DNR on you and further let you starve to death even though you might be healthy otherwise?

I know that is a bad situation to describe as you are obviously already in advanced stages of being brain dead now.

Oooooh....... "Bucko!"

Looky here Bucket (=female Bucko?.. If not, take it for "a container for whatever it is that they put in your brain"), the "you" in my post was not the personal you but the plural, meaning the blind faction of pro-lifers who have no capability of analyzing any situation but by their own black/white way. Had you gotten past that realization without a hissyfit, you might have given your brain the challenge of figuring out my point on its own, so I wouldn't have to take this time to explain it to you. Terri Schiavo, by the conclusion of multiple doctors, judges and other professionals, WAS NO LONGER THERE. Meaning God had decided to take her and you who wanted the artificial feeding continued were interfering in God's will. That was the point. THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN, if you will. Or is it only you and your type who have the right to tell us what "God" and "Life" are all about?

[Inspector]

I wonder how they know she's not feeling anything.

Must be like some kind of sci-fi thing, where they can access her inner mind and actually know for sure exactly what she is feeling.

Otherwise, I wonder how they know.

[patteeu]

First off Bucko...

ROFL

For your information, the practice of putting a feeding tube in a patient is very common practice. As a matter of fact, the Pope now is being fed through a tube. Should they have let him die because of his current illness?

The Pope has clearly indicated that he doesn't want to have life prolonging procedures stopped. If he were in Florida, no one could remove him from the feeding tube if they wanted to. Terri Schiavo didn't share that preference.

I know that is a bad situation to describe as you are obviously already in advanced stages of being brain dead now.

That was almost funny, but I'd say from your rapidly declining rep meter your act isn't connecting with the crowd yet.

Don't let us get you flustered. Try to keep your cool and make rational arguments instead of just telling us about your religious beliefs and expecting us to recognize the wisdom and accept them the way you do. Interact. Ask questions and answer questions. You'll be fine.

[recycle]

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