Terry Schiavo as Jesus Christ

[memyselfI]

Driving home from the gym last night, I heard Michael Savage try to make the case that Schiavo is dying Easter Weekend for a reason and that it has to do with a connection to the persecution and death of Christ and she's a living reminder of what we did to him and what we are doing to her. Remember, that 'a court was divided on his death sentence as well.'

I thought, the guy is wigged and certainly only the RWNJ fringe would be equating the two.

Except that later last night I saw Joe Scarborough say this was one of the most upsetting and disgraceful events in our countries history (paraphrasing) and may God have mercy (paraphrasing) on our country.

Now, if you recall, I'm all for keeping this woman alive, not for Congressional involvement, think the husband is a bastard who has no business deciding the course of this woman's life...

but the exploitation of this woman for political and/or religious causes is just disgusting and I imagine when she finally does pass the RWNJS will lobby hard to pin her death on 'the culture of death' and subsequently the 'liberal agenda.' :shake: :rolleyes: :banghead: Nevermind that there are liberals like myself who believe the facts in this case call for her to remain alive and her parents granted custody.

[Warrior5]

I agree that Savage is waay out there; in fact, I don't know where this guy comes up with some of his stuff.

But are you saying that only secular debate about her situation has merit, while anyone who debates this from a faith perspective is merely a RWNJ trying to exploit her?

[BIG_DADDY]

Michael Savage is right on the money like 80% of the time. The other 20% he is so far out in right field he can't see the ballpark. This would be one of those times.

[alnorth]

I agree with Savage roughly half the time. The other half the time I listen purely for entertainment value.

[Cochise]

Michael Savage is right on the money like 80% of the time. The other 20% he is so far out in right field he can't see the ballpark. This would be one of those times.

I would agree with the 80-20 principle.

[Taco John]

Except that later last night I saw Joe Scarborough say this was one of the most upsetting and disgraceful events in our countries history (paraphrasing) and may God have mercy (paraphrasing) on our country.




I agree with this. I am disgraced that we are going to murder this woman without knowing her will.

By the same token, there are a lot of people praying for this woman to make a full recovery. If God can make miracles happen, there would be no better time to put that on display than right now.

[Frankie]

I agree with this. I am disgraced that we are going to murder this woman without knowing her will.

By the same token, there are a lot of people praying for this woman to make a full recovery. If God can make miracles happen, there would be no better time to put that on display than right now.

:thumb:
Which means leave the tube out and let God do his/her work.

[Mr. Kotter]

:thumb:
Which means leave the tube out and let God do his/her work.

How about we remove your tube; that would relieve a helluva a lot of pain and suffering around here.....heh. :hmmm:

:p

[Frankie]

How about we remove your tube; that would relieve a helluva a lot of pain and suffering around here.....heh. :hmmm:

:p

I suppose this could be comedy.... IF IT WAS FUNNY!!!

[Mr. Kotter]

I suppose this could be comedy.... IF IT WAS FUNNY!!!

Comedy? :spock:

I was being serious... :shrug:

[KCWolfman]

Damn, and you people wonder why I don't listen to these "entertainers"?

[King_Chief_Fan]

I agree with this. I am disgraced that we are going to murder this woman without knowing her will.

By the same token, there are a lot of people praying for this woman to make a full recovery. If God can make miracles happen, there would be no better time to put that on display than right now.

God can make miracles happen........ I saw some news where Pat Boone's grandson had an accident that injured him and his condition was similar to Schiavo's. His recovery has been considered miraculous and the perfect partnering of prayer and medicine to help this man recover. It is amazing the strides he has made and is still making.
God answers prayers.......sometimes the answer is yes as in this case. Sometimes the answer is no.

[Cochise]

How about we remove your tube; that would relieve a helluva a lot of pain and suffering around here.....heh. :hmmm:

:p

ROFL ROFL ROFL

[trndobrd]

The only thing scarier than the Conservatives who Michael Savage seriously are the Liberals who listen to him and get worked into a lather.

Personally, I don't see feeding someone as keeping them alive "artifically", and understand the rush to yank the feeding tube out.

[alnorth]

God can make miracles happen........ I saw some news where Pat Boone's grandson had an accident that injured him and his condition was similar to Schiavo's. His recovery has been considered miraculous and the perfect partnering of prayer and medicine to help this man recover. It is amazing the strides he has made and is still making.
God answers prayers.......sometimes the answer is yes as in this case. Sometimes the answer is no.

You can trot out all of the examples of miracles you want. Without exception, every single one of them will have an intact upper brain and the doctors incorrectly diagnosed them as PVS or brain dead or whatever.

When your cerebral cortex freaking disappears into a liquidy goo, then its game over, man.

[Mr. Kotter]

You can trot out all of the examples of miracles you want. Without exception, every single one of them will have an intact upper brain and the doctors incorrectly diagnosed them as PVS or brain dead or whatever.

When your cerebral cortex freaking disappears into a liquidy goo, then its game over, man.

Who'd have thunk it: alnorth is God. :hmmm:

[alnorth]

ok, Einstein. You tell me how a human being can have consiousness, feelings, thoughts, or an ability to sense pain when their cerebral f***ing cortex is gone? What, is it going to magically re-appear in a blinding flash of light accompanied with a plume of dust and a big "poofing" sound?

[Cochise]

Who'd have thunk it: alnorth is God. :hmmm:

What are you, new here?

[Mr. Kotter]

ok, Einstein. You tell me how a human being can have consiousness, feelings, thoughts, or an ability to sense pain when their cerebral f***ing cortex is gone? What, is it going to magically re-appear in a blinding flash of light accompanied with a plume of dust and a big "poofing" sound?

I'll trust your assessment, God---over some Doctors who've examined her situation and decided the "conventional wisdom" of her condition in this case may not be correct and accurate.

I'm sure you know more than those silly and politically motivated evil Doctors.

Rock on, God. :thumb:

[alnorth]

I'll trust your assessment, God---over some Doctors who've examined her situation and decided the "conventional wisdom" of her condition in this case may not be correct and accurate.

I'm sure you know more than those silly and politically motivated evil Doctors.

Rock on, God. :thumb:

Allow me to translate this for you into a more accurate display of your feelings:

"La la la la la, I cant hear you, la la la la!"

For everyone else, every single doctor, without exception, who has performed a brain scan has concluded that her upper brain is gone, including the cerebral cortex. The only doctors who disagree have never seen a brain scan and base it on nothing more than video tape or perhaps a bit of brief observation. Many of those doctors have ulterior motives, of wanting to test unproven new therapies for personal fame.

[Mr. Kotter]

Allow me to translate this for you into a more accurate display of your feelings:

"La la la la la, I cant hear you, la la la la!"

For everyone else, every single doctor, without exception, who has performed a brain scan has concluded that her upper brain is gone, including the cerebral cortex. The only doctors who disagree have never seen a brain scan and base it on nothing more than video tape or perhaps a bit of brief observation. Many of those doctors have ulterior motives, of wanting to test unproven new therapies for personal fame.

Thank you, God.

[patteeu]

God can make miracles happen........ I saw some news where Pat Boone's grandson had an accident that injured him and his condition was similar to Schiavo's. His recovery has been considered miraculous and the perfect partnering of prayer and medicine to help this man recover. It is amazing the strides he has made and is still making.
God answers prayers.......sometimes the answer is yes as in this case. Sometimes the answer is no.

I don't know anything about Pat Boone's grandson (and I hope his recovery continues), but my guess is that his grandson's condition was to Terri Schiavo's condition as Pat Boone's heavy metal album was to a Judas Priest album.

[|Zach|]

as Pat Boone's heavy metal album was to a Judas Priest album.
ROFL

[patteeu]

The only thing scarier than the Conservatives who Michael Savage seriously are the Liberals who listen to him and get worked into a lather.

Personally, I don't see feeding someone as keeping them alive "artifically", and understand the rush to yank the feeding tube out.

15 years doesn't sound like much of a rush to me.

[Mr. Kotter]

15 years doesn't sound like much of a rush to me.

Okay, you got 15 years till we pull your tube. "Go!"

[patteeu]

Okay, you got 15 years till we pull your tube. "Go!"

Did you really think that made any sense when you typed it?

[Mr. Kotter]

Did you really think that made any sense when you typed it?

No. Why....should it make sense? :shrug:

I must have missed the memo/e-mail that "posts on ChiefsPlanet" must make sense. Damn, I'm always one of the last to find out these things. :banghead:

I don't think I'm the only one to have missed that one though... :hmmm:

[tiptap]

No. Why....should it make sense? :shrug:

I must have missed the memo/e-mail that "posts on ChiefsPlanet" must make sense. Damn, I'm always one of the last to find out these things. :banghead:

I don't think I'm the only one to have missed that one though... :hmmm:

In most arguments between religious and scientific spheres it is the scientist that are the reductionists (ie atoms, thermodynamics, etc) and religious thought is comprehensive (God is in control). But in the case of one's own or someone else's existence this becomes reversed. Religious thought is reductionist in that there is a soul associated with a human and all of a person is encapsulated in this 'form.' While scientific thought sees life as an emergent quality that manifests itsef from complexity. These lines cross again in that the emergent quality we might label a mind, is dependent upon a physical agent, the brain by most scientist. The religious affirmation is that there remains essence of a person even in the diminished state of an individual once claimed to having a soul still encapsulating the individuals life.
The argument is not life, we eat animals or plants. It is a reflection upon the argument as to whether we are greater than the sum of our parts in delivering human counsciousness or whether that quality is an gift from our beginnings and creator. It is a religious argument about what is unique about man.

[trndobrd]

15 years doesn't sound like much of a rush to me.


I was thinking more of the last 6 months or so.

Personally, I say leave the tube in. Let her parents pay for her medical care. She can serve as a lesson for people too lazy to take 5 minutes to fill out a living will or write a letter saying what they want to be done if they are in a similar situation.

[patteeu]

In most arguments between religious and scientific spheres it is the scientist that are the reductionists (ie atoms, thermodynamics, etc) and religious thought is comprehensive (God is in control). But in the case of one's own or someone else's existence this becomes reversed. Religious thought is reductionist in that there is a soul associated with a human and all of a person is encapsulated in this 'form.' While scientific thought sees life as an emergent quality that manifests itsef from complexity. These lines cross again in that the emergent quality we might label a mind, is dependent upon a physical agent, the brain by most scientist. The religious affirmation is that there remains essence of a person even in the diminished state of an individual once claimed to having a soul still encapsulating the individuals life.
The argument is not life, we eat animals or plants. It is a reflection upon the argument as to whether we are greater than the sum of our parts in delivering human counsciousness or whether that quality is an gift from our beginnings and creator. It is a religious argument about what is unique about man.

Did you really think that made any sense when you typed it? :p

*edit*Just to be clear, I'm just joking. I actually think your post makes pretty good sense. */edit*

[patteeu]

I was thinking more of the last 6 months or so.

Personally, I say leave the tube in. Let her parents pay for her medical care. She can serve as a lesson for people too lazy to take 5 minutes to fill out a living will or write a letter saying what they want to be done if they are in a similar situation.

Based on your second paragraph, it sounds like the time frame doesn't really matter that much to you. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I see no reason to refuse to follow the law as it's written and let TS's wishes, as they've been fairly determined in court, rule the day. You know as well as I do that a letter would end up having many of the same problems of certainty that a conversation does, especially given the fact that it would be written by someone who doesn't have a legal or medical education and will be using the language of a layman (e.g. "hooked up to machines").

[patteeu]

No. Why....should it make sense? :shrug:


OK, just checking. ;)

[Mr. Kotter]

... to refuse to follow the law as it's written and let TS's wishes, as they've been fairly determined in court, rule the day...

Those provisions WILL be a battleground in the future of state legislative sessions because of this case. Wanna bet? :hmmm:

[trndobrd]

Based on your second paragraph, it sounds like the time frame doesn't really matter that much to you. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I see no reason to refuse to follow the law as it's written and let TS's wishes, as they've been fairly determined in court, rule the day. You know as well as I do that a letter would end up having many of the same problems of certainty that a conversation does, especially given the fact that it would be written by someone who doesn't have a legal or medical education and will be using the language of a layman (e.g. "hooked up to machines").


Thankfully, I am not subject to the constant media blitz that this case seems to be generating. It does seem to me that there is a feeling that something MUST be resolved, and soon. Again, what's the rush. If there are still factual or legal issues to be resolved, there is plenty of time for the courts to do so. The media has given this the sense of an hour TV drama, and we all just sat down after the last commercial break....

While a hand written letter may be written in lay terms, the courts are quite competent to determine the plain meaning of those terms. Courts can even interpret "hooked up to machines". It would certainly be better to have a written document to interpret, than the conflicting testimony of various family members.

Believe me, I'm all for lawyers making a buck. But writing a simple statement isn't hard. Joe Sixpack can buy a living will kit for $10 at Office Depot and fill it out.

[Lzen]

I agree with this. I am disgraced that we are going to murder this woman without knowing her will.

By the same token, there are a lot of people praying for this woman to make a full recovery. If God can make miracles happen, there would be no better time to put that on display than right now.

That's an interesting perspective. I believe that God stays out of what we do for the most part. If it is Terry's time to leave this life, then so be it.

As for Savage, he is way out there on this one. I have heard him a few times before and have never heard something crazy like this. But whatever, that's his opinion. Who knows, he could be right. But I doubt it.

[patteeu]

Thankfully, I am not subject to the constant media blitz that this case seems to be generating. It does seem to me that there is a feeling that something MUST be resolved, and soon. Again, what's the rush. If there are still factual or legal issues to be resolved, there is plenty of time for the courts to do so. The media has given this the sense of an hour TV drama, and we all just sat down after the last commercial break....

While a hand written letter may be written in lay terms, the courts are quite competent to determine the plain meaning of those terms. Courts can even interpret "hooked up to machines". It would certainly be better to have a written document to interpret, than the conflicting testimony of various family members.

Believe me, I'm all for lawyers making a buck. But writing a simple statement isn't hard. Joe Sixpack can buy a living will kit for $10 at Office Depot and fill it out.

I'm going to assume you aren't well versed in this case then.

First, there aren't any factual or legal issues left to be resolved. They've all been resolved in the 20 (maybe 30 by now) court proceedings that have taken place over the past decade or so. This includes a retrial of the facts after the parents successfully petitioned the court for the opportunity to present new evidence. The parents either don't have a case or they've incompetently presented it.

I understand that courts are competent at determining plain meaning. They are similarly competent in taking competing testimony about verbal exchanges, determining credibility of witnesses, and making a judgement. As alnorth has pointed out, the "conflicting testimony of various family members" in this case amounted to the mother testifying to a statement made when TS was age 11 or 12. If the legislature wanted to require a written declaration, then they would have legislated it.

BTW, "hooked up to machines" is a near-quote from the testimony of the husband in this case (the actual quote, after looking it up, is "hooked to a machine"). It's just as easy to interpret the plain meaning of that phrase based on verbal testimony (that can include commentary about the context and manner in which it was made, elicited if necessary through questioning) as it is to interpret the text on a written document that is limited to the context that the author thought to include in advance.

[memyselfI]

That's an interesting perspective. I believe that God stays out of what we do for the most part. If it is Terry's time to leave this life, then so be it.

As for Savage, he is way out there on this one. I have heard him a few times before and have never heard something crazy like this. But whatever, that's his opinion. Who knows, he could be right. But I doubt it.


Last night he said two things I found hysterical.

1. was that he'd rather have a socialist liberal as president than a lying and fake fraud conservative like we have now. ROFL ROFL ROFL

2. A woman called up defending Michael Schiavo. So, in keeping with his the USA is now Germany run by nazis and we are all collaborating Germans, he called her a 'little nazi in a dress.' ROFL ROFL

[Simplex3]

It will be interresting to see if talk radio is helped or hurt by all of this a month from now (assuming TS dies). I could see it going either way.

[GoChiefs]

I am disgraced that we are going to murder this woman

Terry Schiavo has been dead for years.

[alnorth]

It will be interresting to see if talk radio is helped or hurt by all of this a month from now (assuming TS dies). I could see it going either way.

I'm going with this all blowing over and being forgotten, with an occasional reference here and there. Terri's name wont be uttered in the news but rarely by 2006.

[Pitt Gorilla]

I don't know anything about Pat Boone's grandson (and I hope his recovery continues), but my guess is that his grandson's condition was to Terri Schiavo's condition as Pat Boone's heavy metal album was to a Judas Priest album.Great response. Wow. :thumb:

[trndobrd]

I'm going to assume you aren't well versed in this case then.

First, there aren't any factual or legal issues left to be resolved. They've all been resolved in the 20 (maybe 30 by now) court proceedings that have taken place over the past decade or so. This includes a retrial of the facts after the parents successfully petitioned the court for the opportunity to present new evidence. The parents either don't have a case or they've incompetently presented it.

I understand that courts are competent at determining plain meaning. They are similarly competent in taking competing testimony about verbal exchanges, determining credibility of witnesses, and making a judgement. As alnorth has pointed out, the "conflicting testimony of various family members" in this case amounted to the mother testifying to a statement made when TS was age 11 or 12. If the legislature wanted to require a written declaration, then they would have legislated it.

BTW, "hooked up to machines" is a near-quote from the testimony of the husband in this case (the actual quote, after looking it up, is "hooked to a machine"). It's just as easy to interpret the plain meaning of that phrase based on verbal testimony (that can include commentary about the context and manner in which it was made, elicited if necessary through questioning) as it is to interpret the text on a written document that is limited to the context that the author thought to include in advance.

Although somewhat insulated from the media, I do get the distinct feeling that much of what has transpired in the last 3-4 months has been media driven. It would be difficult for me to imagine caring less about the facts of this case. I am more interested in the media feeding frenzy that has developed, and the lack of a reasonable system to deal with these types of cases.

Courts tend to give greater weight to the written word of an individual than second hand accounts of what that person may have said in the past. The legislature hasn't required a written declaration, although that may not be a bad idea. Unlike the recollections of various friends and family members, a written document is a direct statement (however simply worded) to the Court of their wishes. That's why people do living wills.

We should establish a system similar to the system we use for wills. If you don't want your estate distributed by the rules of intestate succession, you best get something down on paper. Testimony that "George told me 15 years ago that he wanted me to have his exotic car collection" is largely ignored by the Court. Similarly, we need a baseline of what happens to a comatose/brain dead/vegetative person in the absence of a living will or other written statement. Then it would be incumbent upon people to ensure that they have documented their own desires. The politically touchy part will be establishing the baseline.

I need to go call my legislators and make this happen.

[patteeu]

We should establish a system similar to the system we use for wills. If you don't want your estate distributed by the rules of intestate succession, you best get something down on paper. Testimony that "George told me 15 years ago that he wanted me to have his exotic car collection" is largely ignored by the Court. Similarly, we need a baseline of what happens to a comatose/brain dead/vegetative person in the absence of a living will or other written statement. Then it would be incumbent upon people to ensure that they have documented their own desires. The politically touchy part will be establishing the baseline.

In theory, a very reasonable suggestion. In practice, the rules for withdrawing life prolonging medical proceedures can never be as clear cut as intestacy laws. As you seem to recognize with your last sentence, establishing the "baseline" will indeed be very tricky. I have no doubt that the rules could be revised to make them less uncertain than the ones governing the Schiavo case, but the truth is that the Schiavo case is such a rarity already (compared to all the cases where life support is withdrawn without any litigation at all, much less a decade's worth) it might not be that necessary for any reason other than political mollification of those who think an injustice is being done.

[trndobrd]

In theory, a very reasonable suggestion. In practice, the rules for withdrawing life prolonging medical proceedures can never be as clear cut as intestacy laws. As you seem to recognize with your last sentence, establishing the "baseline" will indeed be very tricky. I have no doubt that the rules could be revised to make them less uncertain than the ones governing the Schiavo case, but the truth is that the Schiavo case is such a rarity already (compared to all the cases where life support is withdrawn without any litigation at all, much less a decade's worth) it might not be that necessary for any reason other than political mollification of those who think an injustice is being done.


The problem now is that is not a default position. The easiest, and I think most reasonable, would be that no life prolonging treatment will be discontinued unless there is a living will/advanced medical directive or healthcare proxy that can be presented to the court. We currently have a similar system in play on the other side of the medical field. Unless a person has a DNR order on file, healthcare providers will attempt to resuccitate.

To further simplify the system, legislatures can simply include the format for the living will in the statute or direct a state agency to produce an appropriate, check the block, type form. It simply becomes the responsibility of citizens who decide against prolonging treatment to fill out the form, get it notarized, and put it someplace safe. Decisions regarding minor children would be left to their guardian.

There are a large number of cases where these matters are ultimately decided by the courts. Most, thankfully, don't end up with a media circus at the door of the Federal Courthouse.

Most adults know they should have a living will, this would do no more than simplify and codify the procedure.

[patteeu]

The problem now is that is not a default position. The easiest, and I think most reasonable, would be that no life prolonging treatment will be discontinued unless there is a living will/advanced medical directive or healthcare proxy that can be presented to the court. We currently have a similar system in play on the other side of the medical field. Unless a person has a DNR order on file, healthcare providers will attempt to resuccitate.

Resuccitation is a one shot deal. Either it works or it doesn't. Continuing life proloinging treatment can go on and on and on, often at great expense. Are we going to warehouse every hopelessly incapacitated body that can be kept technically alive using ventilators, feeding tubes, and other marvels of modern medicine? I don't think that's going to work. I suppose you could have a rule that doesn't allow such proceedures to be discontinued if one of a small group of designated people objects (such as the spouse, the children, and the parents).

To further simplify the system, legislatures can simply include the format for the living will in the statute or direct a state agency to produce an appropriate, check the block, type form. It simply becomes the responsibility of citizens who decide against prolonging treatment to fill out the form, get it notarized, and put it someplace safe. Decisions regarding minor children would be left to their guardian.

They already do something very similar to this in Florida (where the Schiavo case is taking place). I guess the trick is in making people aware of it and getting them to fill it out.

There are a large number of cases where these matters are ultimately decided by the courts. Most, thankfully, don't end up with a media circus at the door of the Federal Courthouse.

Most adults know they should have a living will, this would do no more than simplify and codify the procedure.

There are an even larger number that never end up in court because the family and the doctors cooperate and agree on the best course of action. We wouldn't want to do anything that would upset this part of the applecart IMO. We don't need more court cases, even if those cases would be somewhat streamlined by your earlier suggestions.

But in general, I think you're making quite a bit of sense.

[trndobrd]

Resuccitation is a one shot deal. Either it works or it doesn't. Continuing life proloinging treatment can go on and on and on, often at great expense. Are we going to warehouse every hopelessly incapacitated body that can be kept technically alive using ventilators, feeding tubes, and other marvels of modern medicine? I don't think that's going to work. I suppose you could have a rule that doesn't allow such proceedures to be discontinued if one of a small group of designated people objects (such as the spouse, the children, and the parents).



They already do something very similar to this in Florida (where the Schiavo case is taking place). I guess the trick is in making people aware of it and getting them to fill it out.



There are an even larger number that never end up in court because the family and the doctors cooperate and agree on the best course of action. We wouldn't want to do anything that would upset this part of the applecart IMO. We don't need more court cases, even if those cases would be somewhat streamlined by your earlier suggestions.

But in general, I think you're making quite a bit of sense.


Fine, we could make the standard pull the plug unless someone objects. It really doesn't matter, so long as there is a single default standard. You want to stay plugged in longer than, say, 1 year, better get something written down.

I would be curious how old the FL statute is. The majority of decedent estates are not probated, likewise, if the Dr. and family can come to an agreement there is no reason for every case to end up in the court system. It is really the minority of cases that would be affected.

I'm sure there will any number of ideas floated out there. I know the KS legislature is working on one right now. We'll have to wait and see what becomes of it. My gut tells me that after the media attention dies down, this issue will go directly to the back burner.