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Mr. Flopnuts
03-26-2005, 03:18 PM
http://chiefszone.cjonline.com/stories/032605/chi_surtain.shtml


Dean: No question, Surtain is the Chiefs' best play

By Rick Dean
The Capital-Journal
KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Up until a week ago, when they had only two picks in the three-round first day of the NFL draft, the Chiefs' reluctance to trade a draft pick for a proven NFL cornerback was merely distressing.

But today, now that they have picks in each of the draft's first three rounds, Kansas City's failure to make a trade for Miami cornerback Patrick Surtain would be distressingly unacceptable.

The Chiefs this past week picked up their missing third-round draft pick -- the one they traded to Philadelphia last year in a draft-day deal for starting lineman John Welbourne -- when the NFL awarded a compensatory pick for last year's loss of tackle John Tait. When Tait received $14 million in guaranteed money from Chicago, the Chiefs declined to match the ransom figure and subsequently received the extra pick for losing their designated transition player.

The Welbourne draft-day trade was a good one after Tait's departure left a major void at right tackle. Using a draft pick in a relatively high round to acquire a player who could fill that hole immediately was a better talent acquisition than Kansas City usually makes in the third round.





Rick DeanIt's hard to imagine now why Kansas City wouldn't do the same to fill an even more glaring need at cornerback in these days leading up to the April 23 draft.
The Dolphins are anxious to trade Surtain despite his standout history (Pro Bowls in 2002 and '03 and an alternate spot last year) and bright future (he'll be 29 in June). They aren't anxious to lose a player whose 25 interceptions during the past four seasons are the most by any NFL corner. But with Surtain's '05 contract accounting for $8.38 million against their cap, and with young Will Poole ready to join Sam Madison at the corners, Miami is shopping a quality player.

The Chiefs were cautious browsers early before deciding that Miami's asking price, a second-round draft pick, was too high for a team that at the time didn't have a third-round pick.

That was an acceptable decision when other quality free agents corners were in play. But then the Chiefs let Samari Rolle leave Kansas City unsigned and were late in inviting Fred Smoot for a visit. Now their best hope for adding a quality corner to the league's worst pass defense comes down to Surtain or Ty Law.

Law would be a great free agent pickup if someone could promise Carl Peterson that the 31-year-old Patriots standout will recover completely from his broken foot and again be the cover guy who deserved four Pro Bowl trips. Only a used car salesman would make that promise.

If the Chiefs wait until Law proves he's healthy, they will enter a high-stakes bidding war they can't afford.

Surtain is the better play -- right here, right now. He may well cost $12 million or more in guaranteed money on a new contract, but it's a price the Chiefs have to pay to play in coach Dick Vermeil's last season.



I like posting propaganda that coincides with my personal beliefs. What can I say? ;)

StcChief
03-26-2005, 03:46 PM
This seems like a no brainer. I agree, Surtain is the best option.

whoman69
03-26-2005, 05:19 PM
When you consider that even if we get Surtain, we still need another CB in the first round and a replacement at OLB, it was never the best option.

Michael Michigan
03-26-2005, 06:01 PM
When you consider that even if we get Surtain, we still need another CB in the first round and a replacement at OLB, it was never the best option.

Why would KC need another CB in the first round if they have Surtain?

Mr. Laz
03-26-2005, 06:20 PM
Why would KC need another CB in the first round if they have Surtain?

because Warfield will likely be suspended the first 4 games due to his alcohol *cough* issues.

McCleon looks to be past his starting days and bartee sucks.


we need a new start AND a new nickleback who's good enough to start during the first 4 games.

StcChief
03-26-2005, 06:28 PM
I'm not sure Chiefs can shore up all of the defense problems to include the Warfield suspension.

Bowser
03-26-2005, 06:33 PM
We need Surtain. I challenge anybody to prove otherwise. Problem is, if we get him, it won't be until draft day (or maybe a few days before), which means we are all going to twist in the wind for another month or so.

And while we are talking about trading draft picks, let's go ahead and send the Texans a fifth rounder for Jamie Sharper.

Michael Michigan
03-26-2005, 06:43 PM
because Warfield will likely be suspended the first 4 games due to his alcohol *cough* issues.

McCleon looks to be past his starting days and bartee sucks.


we need a new start AND a new nickleback who's good enough to start during the first 4 games.

So--Surtain and a first round CB?

Nah.

Oh who am I kidding, Carl is making the selection anyway...

Mr. Laz
03-26-2005, 08:22 PM
So--Surtain and a first round CB?

Nah.

Oh who am I kidding, Carl is making the selection anyway...

so do you or don't you think we need to add 2 cornerbacks?



or just avoiding the issue...

TRR
03-26-2005, 08:29 PM
so do you or don't you think we need to add 2 cornerbacks?



or just avoiding the issue...

I personally don't want a CB in the first round. Unless a top tier CB unexpectadly falls to us. I think (1) with the addition of Surtain, using a #1 and #2 draft pick would be too steap for CB's. (2) I believe that our first round pick could be better spent on another position like LB or WR. And (3) I feel that we have two semi-promising CB's on the roster in Benny Sapp and Julian Battle.

***This opinion hinges hugely on the assumption that we trade for Patrick Surtain.***

BigChiefFan
03-26-2005, 09:10 PM
I'm glad to see some support on going after Surtain from the media. Good read.

melbar
03-26-2005, 11:22 PM
There are 7 CB's in he draft that could potentially be solid starters by mid season if not sooner and better.And with Barber out till mid season we desperately need a LB who can start as well. That 3rd is basically a top of the 4th pick and that sure aint gonna help us .

Wallcrawler
03-27-2005, 12:01 AM
I personally don't want a CB in the first round. Unless a top tier CB unexpectadly falls to us. I think (1) with the addition of Surtain, using a #1 and #2 draft pick would be too steap for CB's. (2) I believe that our first round pick could be better spent on another position like LB or WR. And (3) I feel that we have two semi-promising CB's on the roster in Benny Sapp and Julian Battle.

***This opinion hinges hugely on the assumption that we trade for Patrick Surtain.***



When your pass defense is last in the league, I dont think that there is any price too steep to get it fixed. Teams were flat out throwing the running game out the window against the Chiefs.


Look at the cornerbacks on this roster.

Warfield is an average corner at best, who will be missing 1-4 games.

Mcleon was never more than an average corner, and with his age getting up there, he will be little help.

William Bartee, simply the mention of his name should be enough to tell that horror story right there.

Julian Battle, another failing attempt at converting a safety to corner.

Benny Sapp, the one true cornerback on the team, and he's only trustworthy in the dime package.


I would say that using the 1 and 2 picks on corners is not too steep. Get some real talent in there at corner, guys who are true corners and know how to play, and get that pass defense respectable. Im sure that Carl and company would be surprised at what happens when you put ACTUAL CORNERBACKS on the field to play corner, instead of a bunch of safeties with their heads up their asses.


They can worry about the OLB position when teams think they have to start running the ball again. The only linebacker I could see the Chiefs going first round on would be Derrick Johnson, and Im betting he goes top 5.

Wide receiver I would rank pretty low on the list for first round selections. The offense is the least of the Chiefs worries right now. If they dont want to continue putting up awesome offensive performances and watching all that work go down the drain the very minute the defense takes the field, then they had damn well better use those picks on some guys to fix that secondary, because right now the only sure thing in the secondary right now is Sammy Knight at SS.

The Chiefs can get by with Bell, Barber and Fujita once Barber returns. The D-line is servicable, and if Gunther would kick Eric Hicks and Ryan Sims in their asses, it could get better.


The Chiefs need corners right now in the worst way. I think the Surtain deal is a no-brainer. Adding a pro bowler to the roster, and reuniting him with his former Dolphin teammate Sammy Knight, I dont see how you could go wrong there. The Dolphins have had one of the best secondaries the past few seasons. The Chiefs would have half of that group if they added him. Those two guys already know how the other operates, so there would be immediate chemistry already in the secondary. I dont see how they can justify not trading the second rounder and getting Surtain in there.

keg in kc
03-27-2005, 12:06 AM
You don't go into the draft looking for a specific player/position, anyway. It's an organic process, and you rate players/position by talent and need. Personally, with or without Surtain, I don't think we can say any one defensive position is any greater need than another, with the exception of DT and S (simply because of numbers and what we've spent in the recent past). A LB, a CB, a DE...any one would be a valid choice, depending on how the chips fall.

TRR
03-27-2005, 12:09 AM
I would say that using the 1 and 2 picks on corners is not too steep. .

That is where we disagree. I believe the front seven needs to be addressed in the draft before the CB position does. Either at DE or LB. You say a CB in the first round. Just a difference of opinion.

I believe with the addition of Surtain, our CB position would be more than serviceable. I agree, there is no reason why Patrick Surtain shouldn't be in a KC uniform.

melbar
03-27-2005, 12:21 AM
I think that second is being reserved so that we have the option to move up should Johnson fall. He is the only player worth giving up a second for. and we would still need a young talented CB capeable of starting.

Wallcrawler
03-27-2005, 12:26 AM
That is where we disagree. I believe the front seven needs to be addressed in the draft before the CB position does. Either at DE or LB. You say a CB in the first round. Just a difference of opinion.

I believe with the addition of Surtain, our CB position would be more than serviceable. I agree, there is no reason why Patrick Surtain shouldn't be in a KC uniform.



Yeah, but who are you going to replace at DE? Allen has earned his job, and Eric Hicks is dug into the asses of Gun, DV, and CP like an Alabama Tick.

David Pollack would be great if they would kick Eric Hicks to the bench in a backup role. Hicks has the desire, he just doesnt get it done. He might be a great guy, and want to be good, but he isnt. If they would bench Hicks, I would agree with a DE pickup. But forcing him to split time with Jared Allen seems to me a waste of a pick.


LB I dont really see anyone that is first round caliber, other than Derrick Johnson. If the Chiefs could somehow trade up to get him, Id love that pick as well.


WR, I really dont want to see that picked in the first.

It just looks to me like the Chiefs have a real shot at getting one of these talented CBs in the first round, and with a bunch of failed converted safeties on the roster playing the CB positions, Id much rather draft a pure corner, and kick one of these falied converts to the curb.

TRR
03-27-2005, 12:48 AM
Yeah, but who are you going to replace at DE? Allen has earned his job, and Eric Hicks is dug into the asses of Gun, DV, and CP like an Alabama Tick.

David Pollack would be great if they would kick Eric Hicks to the bench in a backup role. Hicks has the desire, he just doesnt get it done. He might be a great guy, and want to be good, but he isnt. If they would bench Hicks, I would agree with a DE pickup. But forcing him to split time with Jared Allen seems to me a waste of a pick.


LB I dont really see anyone that is first round caliber, other than Derrick Johnson. If the Chiefs could somehow trade up to get him, Id love that pick as well.


WR, I really dont want to see that picked in the first.

It just looks to me like the Chiefs have a real shot at getting one of these talented CBs in the first round, and with a bunch of failed converted safeties on the roster playing the CB positions, Id much rather draft a pure corner, and kick one of these falied converts to the curb.

I really have no big problem with drafting a CB first round. It is definitely a need area. I just think that the front seven (yes, finding a replacement for Hicks) and another LB may be just as pressing as a CB. To be honest, with the way we've drafted CB's lately, I think that's what scares me the most.

This is horrible to say, but to be honest, I would love to see us take Mike Williams at #15 if he is still there. I know all the arguements, etc. I just think with Morton (cut?) and Kennison being long in the tooth, and no true threat on the outside, a WR like Mike Williams would be HUGE in this offense.

The only people that think KC WR's are adequate are KC fans. I think a WR of Williams' caliber could do what Owens did for Philly on offense last season.

melbar
03-27-2005, 02:11 AM
Maybe they should draft a DE to give our current starters a kick in the butt Like Knight has done with the safety position. Wouldnt be my personal choice ...

Mr. Flopnuts
03-27-2005, 03:14 AM
Mike Williams is the only player on offense they can draft in the 1st round without me throwing a complete hissy fit

CoMoChief
03-27-2005, 03:22 AM
We need to trade our 2nd round pick for Surtain. Its a safe, sure deal that even Carl cant f**k up. Hes a former Pro Bowler the last few seasons, and hasnt crossed that dreaded age of 30 yet. Warfield had a good year last year, then people starting avoiding him by throwing the other way. With Surtain on board they couldnt do that anymore. We HAVE to draft a LB and if at all possible trade up our first round pick next year for Derrick Johnson. If not then I could be happy with Merriman from Maryland. The CB position is overrated a little bit simply because of the new rules favoring offense. If you have good LBs and a solid pass rush, then the CBs arent left on islands as much, hint the New England Pats in the SB, starting some CBs that I have never even heard of before and they did fine.

CoMoChief
03-27-2005, 03:24 AM
Mike Williams is the only player on offense they can draft in the 1st round without me throwing a complete hissy fit


I dont think that we should even address offense with the defense we have right now and the injuries and not holes but canyons that need to be filled.

htismaqe
03-27-2005, 05:58 AM
Mike Williams is the only player on offense they can draft in the 1st round without me throwing a complete hissy fit

Mike Williams is the one player that I WOULD throw a hissy fit if they drafted...

htismaqe
03-27-2005, 06:01 AM
So--Surtain and a first round CB?

Nah.

Oh who am I kidding, Carl is making the selection anyway...

Exactly. Carl is making the pick.

All the more reason to GET SURTAIN. At least that way we don't run the risk of getting NOTHING at CB.

whoman69
03-27-2005, 08:59 AM
What everyone seems to be overlooking is that even if we get Surtain, we still need to draft another CB to hold the spot for Warfield. We need to replace not just McCleon, but Bartee as well, 2 CBs.

CosmicPal
03-27-2005, 09:03 AM
What everyone seems to be overlooking is that even if we get Surtain, we still need to draft another CB to hold the spot for Warfield. We need to replace not just McCleon, but Bartee as well, 2 CBs.

Not me. I certainly haven't overlooked that. As a matter of fact- I believe our secondary needs a complete overhaul. Surtain and Knight together, will not save that secondary. When Warfield comes back, I might breathe easier, but we still need a solid third AND fourth corner.

ROYC75
03-27-2005, 09:28 AM
Wonder if Miami would take our # 1 this year, give us there # 2 and Surtain. We could then take Justin Miller early 2nd round, still have a 2nd and a 3rd.

I think Miller will step right in and do well.

BTA, at what price do you put on a # 1 for imediate help. Miller will contribute right away with an early 2nd rd pick.

Plus the fact we don't tie alot of $$ right away on a # 1, maybe we can still get Law , who knows .

Just some food for thought.

Shox
03-27-2005, 09:57 AM
Being totally serious, the Chiefs should give serious consideration of trading their 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. Carl will screw them up anyway, look at his track record and tell me you really think we will make a good choice with the 2nd round pick. We will be lucky if the first round pick is productive next season. I read an old scouting report today about last seasons rookies draft report and Kris Wilson was projected by this particular service to be a free agent and we take him in the 2nd round. The guys Carl is targeting will still be around with our 4th and 5th picks so why not trade away our top picks for real talent.

I know this will never happen. Ownership obviously thinks CP is doing a bangup job evidenced by a contract extension.

The only way the Chiefs will ever win a Superbowl is to get rid of CP. CP is not going anywhere as long as the fans continue to buyout the stadium. We had the 4th highest attendance in the NFL last year, and we didn't even make the playoffs.

We have nobody to blame but ourselves.

We need to NOT GO until CP GOES.

Gaz
03-27-2005, 10:12 AM
The next four years are really gonna suck for you.

xoxo~
Gaz
Did not go to Arrowhead last season, so he is not to blame.

Mr. Laz
03-27-2005, 10:16 AM
Wonder if Miami would take our # 1 this year, give us there # 2 and Surtain. We could then take Justin Miller early 2nd round, still have a 2nd and a 3rd.

I think Miller will step right in and do well.

BTA, at what price do you put on a # 1 for imediate help. Miller will contribute right away with an early 2nd rd pick.

Plus the fact we don't tie alot of $$ right away on a # 1, maybe we can still get Law , who knows .

Just some food for thought.
i don't like that at all ... our 1st round pick should be in a very good spot to get a talented guy. why trade it away?

trade the 2nd round pick and then trade down in the 1st and get a 2nd back IF the draft falls correctly would be a much better situation IMO than just trading away our 1st round option.

CosmicPal
03-27-2005, 10:21 AM
i don't like that at all ... our 1st round pick should be in a very good spot to get a talented guy. why trade it away?

trade the 2nd round pick and then trade down in the 1st and get a 2nd back IF the draft falls correctly would be a much better situation IMO than just trading away our 1st round option.


I agree with Laz. Trade that 2nd pick (for Surtain) and then trade down and pick up a second rounder. With the addition of Surtain and our supplementary pick in the third- we could add some nice depth to our defense, and even the offense with all of the picks we get this season.

Luzap
03-27-2005, 10:21 AM
Being totally serious, the Chiefs should give serious consideration of trading their 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. Carl will screw them up anyway... Kris Wilson was projected by this particular service to be a free agent and we take him in the 2nd round...

If Kris Wilson returns from injury 100% I think you'll be eating those words.

I don't think Carl has the best draft record, but calling for his head and making drastic statements like the one above are foolish IMO. Many in the sports world think Lamar is blessed to have Carl, and the stability and consistency he brings. Very few teams have had the consistent success we've had ~ fans are just restless because we haven't taken it all the way (yet).

Luz
of course, the media doesn't have anything to do with people bashing carl...

Michael Michigan
03-27-2005, 10:54 AM
so do you or don't you think we need to add 2 cornerbacks?



or just avoiding the issue...

With Surtain, I don't want them to burn a first rounder on a corner.

But again, with Carl making the pick, does it matter?

DTLB58
03-27-2005, 11:24 AM
If Kris Wilson returns from injury 100% I think you'll be eating those words.

I don't think Carl has the best draft record, but calling for his head and making drastic statements like the one above are foolish IMO. Many in the sports world think Lamar is blessed to have Carl, and the stability and consistency he brings. Very few teams have had the consistent success we've had ~ fans are just restless because we haven't taken it all the way (yet).

Luz
of course, the media doesn't have anything to do with people bashing carl...

Stability and consistency? That reminds me of the title of a Bill Parcels book...No medals for trying! Zero Super bowl wins,Zero Super Bowl apperances under CP, all the while ALL of our division rivals plus an EXPANSION franchise that entered the league since he has taken over makes it to the SB and we are supposed to be happy with that? His choice as his dream coach for us has handed us one playoff appearance (a loss) since coming here 4 years ago. Any other NFL team would have made a change at the top before now. I think the fans have the right to be restless and yes, even call for his head. We after all are paying his salary, right?

Chris Meck
03-27-2005, 11:40 AM
I think Surtain is worth a second rounder; he's a pro-bowler in his prime. I worry about him taking a huge portion of our cap dollars however in this new age of 'castrated' corners.

I too would've liked to see the money spent on the front seven; although we're in decent shape there now, IMO. You can't just write off ALL of your young players as hopeless and sign a bunch of veterans.

I disagree that Smoot should've been a priority-he's too small to play bump'n'run in this division at 5'9 or 5'10. There's a bunch of 6'2 and taller WR's running around the West. Someone like a Herndon would've been a better value and allowed us to spend $$ on an OLB or even a DE to replace Hicks.

I know everyone's in full-on panic mode, but you have to realize that it's not possible to just replace EVERYBODY. You MUST count on your young players to get better, and use FA to plug holes. It's true that it would appear that we've got a ton of holes but you can't just go buy a top notch defense.

Some of the young guys are going to HAVE to improve if we're going to challenge. The Fox's, Mitchell's, Sapp's, and Beisel's MUST step up and play better. If Jared Allen is the only recent draft choice that can play in the NFL on that side of the ball, then we're really kidding ourselves.

Chris

Thig Lyfe
03-27-2005, 11:53 AM
I Vote Surtain in 05

Count Zarth
03-27-2005, 12:30 PM
I disagree that Smoot should've been a priority-he's too small to play bump'n'run in this division at 5'9 or 5'10. There's a bunch of 6'2 and taller WR's running around the West. Someone like a Herndon would've been a better value and allowed us to spend $$ on an OLB or even a DE to replace Hicks.

Smoot is the same height as Surtain.

Why do people just assume things before verifying them?

Herndon is 5-10, BTW.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-27-2005, 12:35 PM
Mike Williams is the one player that I WOULD throw a hissy fit if they drafted...


You are very insightful on this board Mr. Mage. So you must know something about this guy that I don't. No sarcasm, I'm being dead serious. What gives with your dislike for Mike.

Wile_E_Coyote
03-27-2005, 01:02 PM
Surtain was a second round pick(#44) in '98
Warfield was a seventh rounder in '98

Pat has played in 108 out of 112 possible games(7x16)
Eric 104 (probably didn't play right away?)

Pat has 29 ints
Eric 19, he has had 4 ints per year for the last 4 years

Pat 5'11" #192
Eric 6' #200

they could make a nice pair of CBs

ROYC75
03-27-2005, 03:57 PM
i don't like that at all ... our 1st round pick should be in a very good spot to get a talented guy. why trade it away?

trade the 2nd round pick and then trade down in the 1st and get a 2nd back IF the draft falls correctly would be a much better situation IMO than just trading away our 1st round option.

Trade our 1st to Miami for Surtain and Miami's 2nd rd pick.

That gives us two 2nd rd picks, which Miami's is what, the 2nd overall in the 2nd rd, take Miller and use our 2nd rd for something else.

We don't tie up big $$$ and a contract on a 1st that Carl never gets to camp on time, still Surtain and an extra pick for Carl to screw up.

Bowser
03-27-2005, 04:00 PM
Trade our 1st to Miami for Surtain and Miami's 2nd rd pick.

That gives us two 2nd rd picks, which Miami's is what, the 2nd overall in the 2nd rd, take Miller and use our 2nd rd for something else.

We don't tie up big $$$ and a contract on a 1st that Carl never gets to camp on time, still Surtain and an extra pick for Carl to screw up.

Miami gave up their second rounder for AJ Feeley. ( ROFL )

ROYC75
03-27-2005, 04:02 PM
Miami gave up their second rounder for AJ Feeley. ( ROFL )

Holy Cow .....Damn, they might want more than a 2nd rd for Surtain then.

milkman
03-27-2005, 04:51 PM
Miami gave up their second rounder for AJ Feeley. ( ROFL )

Almost makes Carl look competent, doesn't it?

Bowser
03-27-2005, 04:52 PM
Almost makes Carl look competent, doesn't it?

Let's not get carried away, shall we?



:D

Mr. Laz
03-27-2005, 04:53 PM
With Surtain, I don't want them to burn a first rounder on a corner.

But again, with Carl making the pick, does it matter?
ah... i see

who's gonna start across from Surtain IF this happens?

who's gonna be the nickle after Warfield comes back?


Surtain - 1
Warfield - 2 (after game 4)
McCleon
Bartee
Battle
Sapp


nobody after warfield has shown they can handle anything above a nickleback(if that)

Bowser
03-27-2005, 04:55 PM
ah... i see

who's gonna start across from Surtain IF this happens?

who's gonna be the nickle after Warfield comes back?


Surtain - 1
Warfield - 2 (after game 4)
McCleon
Bartee
Battle
Sapp


nobody after warfield has shown they can handle anything about a nickleback(if that)

Hell, at this point, Sapp probablly has the best chance of being the nickle (meaning he's #2 the first month of the season).

milkman
03-27-2005, 04:55 PM
Let's not get carried away, shall we?



:D

I shouda placed emphasis on the word "almost". :banghead: