PDA

View Full Version : Ethanol in gas?


SNR
03-28-2005, 12:28 AM
I've stuff from people that this gasohol shit is rough on your car. Is this true?

elvomito
03-28-2005, 12:58 AM
Well, it has a cleaning effect, so any gunk in your tank will likely be knocked loose and possibly clog the fuel filter. My dad ran a tank and it dissolved some o-rings in the fuel system. time consuming to identify and fix.
I on the other hand, have never had a problem with 2 or 3 tanks. I no longer care to use it.

Rausch
03-28-2005, 01:00 AM
It doesn't taste very good, that much I promise you....

htismaqe
03-28-2005, 05:33 AM
I've used 10% ethanol ever since I was old enough to drive.

Most of the shit you hear is propaganda, nothing more.

There's a reason gas here in Iowa is 15 cents cheaper per gallon, but the oil companies don't want you to know that...

Chan93lx50
03-28-2005, 06:18 AM
I've used 10% ethanol ever since I was old enough to drive.

Most of the shit you hear is propaganda, nothing more.

There's a reason gas here in Iowa is 15 cents cheaper per gallon, but the oil companies don't want you to know that...

Bingo,

I have a 93 Mustang with 150,000 mile and still humming along and I have only used Ethanol, I use it and like it!

Plus it has a higher octane rating than normal 87 fuel where ethanol is 89 and its cheaper (In Iowa cross boarder its more expesive than regular)

Long story short, I have never taken any of my cars to the shop because of using ethanol

jspchief
03-28-2005, 07:19 AM
Ethanol was supposedly hard on older engines (like pre 80s), but it's completely safe for new engines. Ethanol has been a staple at every gas station in IA for at least 15 years. Companies wouldn't still be selling it if it messed with your car.

Bob Dole
03-28-2005, 07:20 AM
I've stuff from people that this gasohol shit is rough on your car. Is this true?

Is that rumor <b>still</b> flying around? How about the one where ethanol eats the paint off your car if you spill any on it?

And of course, you realize HEET and related products are primarily ethanol...

redbrian
03-28-2005, 07:27 AM
I ran a vintage 60's Volvo P1800 on it (needed the octane), in addition I would use an additive for lead and a lil more octane.

Never had a lick of problem due to the Ethanol.

bkkcoh
03-28-2005, 07:47 AM
I've stuff from people that this gasohol shit is rough on your car. Is this true?



But it is good for the environment, who gives a crap if it is hard on the vehicles.... :hmmm:





:thumb: :p

ClearmontChief
03-28-2005, 07:48 AM
I've never had any problems with it, in multiple vehicles. It's all I've ever used since it came out. It's been all I've run in a 77 Chevy 4X4 with a 350; a 1984 Bronco II, a 1988 Bronco II, a 1996 Ford Explorer, a 1998 Mits. Eclipse, 1998 Chevy Silverado, and a 1998 Cavalier. I use it in my riding lawn mower, my push mower, my garden tiller, my weed-eater.

Never had any fuel system problems with any of them. No gas line freezes, no plugged filters, no performance problems, etc. Plus, it's higher octane so they all ran/run great.

As mentioned, older vehicles, perhaps with crud in the bottom of the tanks might not like it because it does have a cleaning effect.

cookster50
03-28-2005, 07:59 AM
I've used 10% ethanol ever since I was old enough to drive.

Most of the shit you hear is propaganda, nothing more.

There's a reason gas here in Iowa is 15 cents cheaper per gallon, but the oil companies don't want you to know that...

I thought you used it up quicker, so your gas mileage suffers. Is that just propaganda?

keg in kc
03-28-2005, 08:00 AM
There's been a couple of times I'm sure I was farting purple jesus the next day.

ExtremeChief
03-28-2005, 08:16 AM
I've never had any problems with it. It sells for the same price as regular unleaded and has a higher octane rating here in NCMO.

htismaqe
03-28-2005, 08:26 AM
I thought you used it up quicker, so your gas mileage suffers. Is that just propaganda?

I honestly don't know because I've never used anything BUT ethanol blends...

I'm pretty sure IRL or NASCAR os someone is using higher octane ethanol blends now because it offers better performance...

Fire Me Boy!
03-28-2005, 08:53 AM
Well... it's made from corn, so you should be aware that it will leave chunks in your exhaust.






I hadn't heard anything about it being hard on your engine, but I know that stuff doesn't run for shit in my car...

Bob Dole
03-28-2005, 08:53 AM
Bob Dole worked for Quik Trip when they introduced ethanol and gave away the Trans Ams.

Too bad Bob Dole has killed too many brain cells to recall all the relevant info. The short version was basically that all the negative info is incorrect.

The "gasohol" stories are primarily based on earlier blends that included methanol.

ROYC75
03-28-2005, 09:02 AM
Ethanol is not harmful to the engine and can produce better fuel mileage .

But beware of the usual corn muffins or corn flakes from the exhaust form time to time.

Radar Chief
03-28-2005, 09:32 AM
I don’t like the stuff but rufusmaque, Iowanian and I have talked about it before and I now understand that the use of ethanol helps boost the agriculture economy, so I quit biatching about it.
My problems with it are, it causes aluminum and magnesium to corrode and can cause certain rubber o-rings to deteriorate and or swell. The reasoning behind it’s use is faulty also. It’s used as an “oxygenate” because it carries with it some oxygen and supposedly helps an engine run leaner so that it burns less gas and emits few pollutants. If we were all still running carbureted engines, this would work. But since we’re all running “open loop” electronic fuel injection that checks how the engine is running by reading the signal from an oxygen sensor (O2 sensor in exhaust manifold) and adjusts injection pulse width based partially on this reading, it’ll automatically compensate for this lean condition and burn more fuel. The difference my not be immediately noticeable, but it is there.

A thing or two about octane also. If you’re running high octane fuel in a typical engine, with compression around 9:1, you’re wasting money and fuel because you’re not fully burning the intake charge.
An engine compresses the fuel/air mixture to make it more volatile, and more easily ignited by a spark plug. Too much compression, or to low of octane, and the fuel can be ignited by the heat from the cylinder wall before the spark plug ignites the mixture from the top of the cylinder. When these two separate flames meet, the mixture between them burns so fast it literally breaks the speed of sound and creates an audible noise known as “pre-detonation ping”. Though pinging is the least of your worries when you hear the noise since it can simultaneously be blowing holes in piston crowns or valves/valve seats.
Although if your using a fuel with a higher octane than what your engine needs then your sending unburned fuel out the exhaust, only real problem here besides increase pollution is it can clog your catalytic converter.
What I’m saying with all this is use the fuel recommended by the manufacture. If the manufacture specifies 87 octane, use it. If you have a higher performance vehicle and the manufacture specifies octane no less than say 91, then use at least that since using 87 octane will cause the pinging and associated damage previously described.

yunghungwell
03-28-2005, 09:33 AM
Just don't use ethanol blended gas in to mix 2-stroke fuel for something that you really care about. If any moisture gets into the mix, like say gas tank/can condensation, the ethanol can separate out with the water. Water and ethanol without any oil don't lubricate an engine very well.

Ok, to use in all 4-stroke engines. I run it in my car all the time and have never had a problem.

FTR, IIRC Indy cars use 100% methanol.

bkkcoh
03-28-2005, 09:43 AM
FTR, IIRC Indy cars use 100% methanol.


Yeah, but their engines have to be rebuilt after every race, don't they.... :hmmm:




:thumb: :p

Iowanian
03-28-2005, 09:47 AM
I've been running 10% ethynol for several years and have ZERO problems with ping or anything. Its all I buy. There are programs where some State vehicles run on 85-100% ethynol.

Don't run alcohol gas in a 2 stroke and you'll be fine.

I'd like to see some Higher ethynol blends available...........this $2+ gas is bullshit.

yunghungwell
03-28-2005, 09:57 AM
Alturnative fuels in other counties. (http://www.cornandsoybeandigest.com/mag/soybean_us_versus_world/)

An old article with a couple of interesting facts.

In Brazil, ethanol is produced primarily from sugar cane, not corn.

According to the Renewable Fuels Association, about 40% of the cars in Brazil operate on 100% ethanol. The remaining cars run on a blend of 22% ethanol (78% gasoline). Brazil consumes nearly 4 billion gallons of fuel ethanol per year.

The U.S., by comparison, uses ethanol in only 12% of its fuel, mostly at a blend of 10% ethanol (90% gasoline). That translates to 1.7 billion gallons a year.

redbrian
03-28-2005, 09:58 AM
How about this stuff.

(Story in today's KC Star, sorry I forgot to copy the link)

DORA, Mo. — As gas prices soar, some ingenious drivers are going somewhere other than the gas station to fill 'er up.

They're headed to their favorite restaurant.

That's right, people all over the country are converting their diesel engines to run on waste vegetable oil. The same stuff that bathed their crab Rangoon yesterday is powering their Volkswagen Jetta today. They're doing it for free, filling up their fuel tank with greasy gunk that restaurant owners are thrilled to give away.

And scores of those drivers are using Charlie Anderson's company, which he boasts is “here in the middle of nowhere,” to do it. Greasel Conversions Inc. is one of the nation's leaders in an industry most people don't realize exists.

Greasel creates, sells and installs conversion kits for diesel engines. Anderson also offers ongoing support and advises clients on where to get their oil. Since restaurant owners typically have to pay to have cooking oil hauled off, they're usually happy to get rid of it.

As Anderson said: “Nothing about this business really seems logical.”

Not Anderson's workshop, hidden off a gravel road in rural Ozark County about 65 miles northeast of Branson. Not the vehicle in his driveway, a 2000 Ford Excursion he's dubbed the “veggie burner,” which smells a bit like french fries.

And certainly not the product, which seems too good to be true.

“You can't get this done at Jiffy Lube,” Anderson said.

Some caution that altering an engine to use vegetable oil could harm a vehicle in the long term.

But industry experts estimate that more than 5,000 people across the United States are driving vehicles that run on waste vegetable oil. This isn't a new concept — when Rudolf Diesel developed the first diesel engine around 1900, he planned to ultimately run it on peanut oil — but it has gained momentum as fuel costs and pollution concerns have escalated.

The Rev. Thomas Alber of Jefferson City is among the believers.

An associate pastor at Immaculate Conception Catholic Church, Alber purchased conversion kits from Greasel for his 1978 Mercedes and his 1984 Ford pickup. He hits the benefit-dinner circuit to maintain his fuel supply, taking the oil from fish fries and chicken dinners.

“I really have no difficulty finding all the oil I need,” Alber said.

As an added bonus, the scent emanating from his vehicle changes from one fill-up to the next. As Alber said: “I've had people ask me, ‘Are you having a barbecue in there?' ”

Fuel for free

Anderson recently stopped at Rainbow Trout Ranch in Rockbridge, Mo., where vats fry the fish caught at nearby Spring Creek.

This is one of his fueling stations, one of the many places Anderson frequents to keep a steady supply of waste vegetable oil. Just outside the back door, in a 350-gallon tank, sits a batch of the stuff.

It's brown, thick and it stinks.

“Not exactly glamorous,” Anderson said. “But it's still oil.”

Diesel engines are versatile, able to use oil that has chemical structures similar to diesel fuel. One way vehicles can run on vegetable oil is through “biodiesel,” a chemically modified vegetable oil that is more costly than diesel fuel but requires no engine modifications. Greasel does not deal with biodiesel, just waste vegetable oil.

Diesel engines can't be totally reliant on vegetable oil. During cold weather, the oil hardens and is too viscous to run smoothly. Converted vehicles must maintain a separate tank for diesel fuel, used to start the vehicle until the conversion kit heats the vegetable oil to the proper viscosity.

But that will only take minutes, maybe less.

Then, with the flip of a switch, the veggie oil tank and fuel lines are engaged so the vehicle runs solely on vegetable oil.

That veggie-oil fuel can come from a variety of places.

Chinese restaurants are good, Anderson said, because he's found they use high-grade oil and change it often. Bar and grills are typically OK, too. And while vegetable oil from fast-food restaurants would work, he steers his customers away from it. Too often, he said, the oil there is changed infrequently and is full of food fragments.

“Chicken chunks, French fries … you name it,” Anderson said.

Regardless of where it came from, the waste vegetable oil must be filtered first to remove the gunk before being pumped into a vehicle's tank. With Anderson's Greasel system, that can be done fairly simply. The oil is pumped from one container into a filter bag that sits atop a second container. Once the oil is filtered, it's ready to go.

Not everyone is a fan of using vegetable oil. There's a chance that altering a vehicle's fuel system could risk voiding manufacturers' warranties.

But that's not what bothers Bob McCormick.

McCormick, a senior fuels engineer for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, Colo., said studies have shown that running vehicles on vegetable oil can reduce a car's lifespan.

“Those vehicles aren't going to last as long as they would running on conventional fuel,” McCormick said. “Diesel engines are supposed to be low-maintenance and long-lasting engines. Running on straight vegetable oil, I don't think that's going to happen.”

Business booming

A tinkerer by nature, Charlie Anderson created his first conversion kit in 2001 with the idea that he might be able to make a buck or two.

“We were dirt poor,” said Dawnette Anderson, Charlie's wife. “I said, ‘You are crazy.' I thought it was just another one of his experiments.”

This year, Anderson expects gross sales to exceed $1 million.

Every week, Greasel ships out 10 to 15 conversion kits, sometimes more, to places as far away as Japan and France. Customers drive from all over the country to this sprawling acreage, which houses both Anderson's business and his home.

They buy conversion kits that sell from $680 for smaller cars to $2,000 or more for trucks. Installation costs are extra, and Anderson said Greasel can complete most conversions in 10 to 12 hours.

On this day, Greasel employee James Bain is preparing orders that will be shipped to California, Georgia, Illinois, New Hampshire and Canada.

“It's definitely busy around here,” said Bain, who spent six years working on nuclear submarines while in the U.S. Navy.

For now, the entire operation consists of Anderson and Bain.

Bright financial projections notwithstanding, Anderson said he's still dealing with startup and overhead costs and jokes that he hopes to make more than minimum wage this year. He wants to see the company grow, but refuses to allow the company to become too corporate.

He likes the bucolic setting, the open spaces for his four children, the family horse, Manina, that saunters up during a lunch break and snatches a bite of his peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

“I'm all about growing the business,” said Anderson, 32. “But I don't want to lose the quality of life.”

Greasel, believed to be the only business of its type in Missouri and one of only a handful across the country, competes with companies such as Deep Fried Rides in Tennessee and Greasecar Vegetable Fuel Systems in Massachusetts. They're fighting for the allegiance of people such as Zac Martin, a Missouri native who lives in Steamboat Springs, Colo.

Martin paid about $500 for a Greasel conversion kit and installed it himself in his 2002 Volkswagen Golf. Now, after putting nearly 30,000 vegetable-oil miles on it, Martin couldn't be happier.

Like others, he reports that the mileage per gallon is remarkably comparable between vegetable oil and diesel fuel. He can't tell a lick of difference in the car's performance. And some studies have shown emissions are more environmentally friendly than those of diesel fuel or gasoline.

He even remembers being the center of attention at a Ruby Tuesday's restaurant once, with employees surrounding him as he pumped their waste oil out of a tank and hauled it off.

“They were like, ‘What are you doing?' ” Martin said. “I said, ‘Getting fuel for my car!'

“I really can't see a bad thing about it. As long as the kit is installed correctly and you're running it correctly, it works absolutely fine.”

Unless, of course, you don't like the smell of fish.

Radar Chief
03-28-2005, 10:01 AM
I've been running 10% ethynol for several years and have ZERO problems with ping or anything. Its all I buy. There are programs where some State vehicles run on 85-100% ethynol.

Don't run alcohol gas in a 2 stroke and you'll be fine.

I'd like to see some Higher ethynol blends available...........this $2+ gas is bullshit.

I didn’t mean to imply that the use of ethonal would cause pinging.
A relation between the fuels octane and the engines compression ratio causes pinging, not just because ethanol was added.

Iowanian
03-28-2005, 10:11 AM
I'm not really a gear head Radar.........I do trust that you know what you're talking about on potential problems.

I do know that I've driven aluminum block vehicles and have been running 10% ethynol since I started driving. I know if they were to put 100% ethynol out for the same price.........I'd run it instead of gas, as my own special way of telling OPEC to Go fist themselves.

Its looking more likely that a biodeisel plant may be going in, near my hometown....they landed some grants within the past couple of weeks...........Good jobs in the area, and another FU to big oil.

htismaqe
03-28-2005, 10:15 AM
I'm not really a gear head Radar.........I do trust that you know what you're talking about on potential problems.

I do know that I've driven aluminum block vehicles and have been running 10% ethynol since I started driving. I know if they were to put 100% ethynol out for the same price.........I'd run it instead of gas, as my own special way of telling OPEC to Go fist themselves.

Its looking more likely that a biodeisel plant may be going in, near my hometown....they landed some grants within the past couple of weeks...........Good jobs in the area, and another FU to big oil.

That's it for me.

It's more about supporting agriculture and reducing dependence on foreign oil than anything else...

Iowanian
03-28-2005, 10:18 AM
I can think of no better way to support agriculture, and eliminate the need for some of the subsidees that Taco hates so much...........than to create a renewable energy source, that puts demand on the market, which supports prices of the product(corn, soy, sugar beats) AND stimulates job creation in an Agricultural Area for People with Skills.

Chemists, Engineers, Environmental Scientists, Ag Specialists, Accountants et al........with legit job oportunity in rural areas...................and the best part....Less dependence on Forgein Oil.

Radar Chief
03-28-2005, 11:03 AM
That's it for me.

It's more about supporting agriculture and reducing dependence on foreign oil than anything else...

I can think of no better way to support agriculture, and eliminate the need for some of the subsidees that Taco hates so much...........than to create a renewable energy source, that puts demand on the market, which supports prices of the product(corn, soy, sugar beats) AND stimulates job creation in an Agricultural Area for People with Skills.

Chemists, Engineers, Environmental Scientists, Ag Specialists, Accountants et al........with legit job oportunity in rural areas...................and the best part....Less dependence on Forgein Oil.

No argument there. Anything that reduces our dependence on foreign oil is a plus, that it also has the potential to boost agriculture is an added bonus.
I’m also interested in this Soy Diesel stuff and just wonder if the distributors have the ability to keep up with market demand. In fact, my next vehicle may be a turbo diesel truck at least partially so I can use Soy Diesel.

whoman69
03-28-2005, 11:33 AM
I've heard that in older cars, its cleaning effects leave problems in older cars that have not used it previously. Nothing that a good fuel injection cleaner wouldn't fix.