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View Full Version : Chief's 2005 season in question


regald
03-28-2005, 04:01 AM
Peterson's made some bad moves as general manager but just two seasons ago you were a 13-3 team (I think, I'm a Colts fan). You have lots of potential on the defensive side of the ball, things just didn't come together and you're now filling in holes. The #1 problem surrounding the chiefs should be defense and your salary cap situation. The status prior to Free Agency was murky, many of your veterans are signed to long term contracts. You'll eventually be forced to cut these players in the future (Much like the Titans this year) in order to stay below the cap, regardless of any free agent acquisitions. Signing Kendrell Bell and Sammy Knight only makes matters worse, due to the fact that you now have more members on a team signed to longer term type deals. Signing Surtain would create more future salary cap havok (He wants to be the highest paid CB in the league) and you still have an upcoming draft...

Kendrell Bell and Sammy Knight are name players. When you think of Kendrell Bell and Sammy Knight, you remember what they were and how they've performed, either a year ago, or with Bell, two years ago .What Bell and Knight did with one team is not what they'll do with another. They were both free agent acquisitions for a reason, either due to injury status or salary demands. It would take proper personnel and management (CP's Job) to determine the right type of players to suit your defense and it seems fans are anxious to get the season strated regardless of potential success. You could sign one of the best free safety's in the league and the best cornerback (John Lynch and Champ Bailey) and not have a defense ranked any higher than the year before, evident by the Broco's 2004 season.

Bell, Knight, and Surtain won't win you games, we'll just have to hope that they can perform better than they've ever played before and that Priest Holmes, Johnnie Morton, Willie Roaf (and others) restructure their contracts in the future. These are unrealistic expectations and in all likelihood we'll see CP without a job and the Chiefs having a rebuilding year due to their salary cap situation. CP has next season to prove whether the signing of Bell, Knight, and possibly Surtain was wise, or whether it was completely retarded. History has shown it's the latter rather than the former.

Many fans have the misconception that it's Vermeil who is in charge of player personnel and scouting. Carl Peterson makes the position moves, Vermeil coaches them, point blank.

CrazyHorse
03-28-2005, 04:31 AM
Peterson's made some bad moves as general manager but just two seasons ago you were a 13-3 team (I think, I'm a Colts fan). You have lots of potential on the defensive side of the ball, things just didn't come together and you're now filling in holes. The #1 problem surrounding the chiefs should be defense and your salary cap situation. The status prior to Free Agency was murky, many of your veterans are signed to long term contracts. You'll eventually be forced to cut these players in the future (Much like the Titans this year) in order to stay below the cap, regardless of any free agent acquisitions. Signing Kendrell Bell and Sammy Knight only makes matters worse, due to the fact that you now have more members on a team signed to longer term type deals. Signing Surtain would create more future salary cap havok (He wants to be the highest paid CB in the league) and you still have an upcoming draft...

Kendrell Bell and Sammy Knight are name players. When you think of Kendrell Bell and Sammy Knight, you remember what they were and how they've performed, either a year ago, or with Bell, two years ago .What Bell and Knight did with one team is not what they'll do with another. They were both free agent acquisitions for a reason, either due to injury status or salary demands. It would take proper personnel and management (CP's Job) to determine the right type of players to suit your defense and it seems fans are anxious to get the season strated regardless of potential success. You could sign one of the best free safety's in the league and the best cornerback (John Lynch and Champ Bailey) and not have a defense ranked any higher than the year before, evident by the Broco's 2004 season.

Bell, Knight, and Surtain won't win you games, we'll just have to hope that they can perform better than they've ever played before and that Priest Holmes, Johnnie Morton, Willie Roaf (and others) restructure their contracts in the future. These are unrealistic expectations and in all likelihood we'll see CP without a job and the Chiefs having a rebuilding year due to their salary cap situation. CP has next season to prove whether the signing of Bell, Knight, and possibly Surtain was wise, or whether it was completely retarded. History has shown it's the latter rather than the former.

Many fans have the misconception that it's Vermeil who is in charge of player personnel and scouting. Carl Peterson makes the position moves, Vermeil coaches them, point blank.

Roaf was a bargain basement deal when we got him. So is Bell and Knight. Carl Peterson just signed a 4 year extention. Priest Holmes does have a big contract however. So you are not completely retarded.

It's not tough to see however that you are worried about losing Surtain. Your worry is misplaced. If there is a team who's season is in doubt, it is Miami. Keeping Surtain isn't goint to help that.

keg in kc
03-28-2005, 04:53 AM
I've read this post twice, and I have yet to find a point. I don't mean that as a slam, exactly, I just don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you trying to suggest that we'd have been better off not signing anyone?Many fans have the misconception that it's Vermeil who is in charge of player personnel and scouting. Carl Peterson makes the position moves, Vermeil coaches them, point blank.The misperception is yours I think. Peterson has always made the coaching staff part of the decision-making process with regards to personnel; rarely does he make any move without the express written consent of his head coach, coordinators and position coaches. The one glaring exception I can think of is the drafting of Larry Johnson, which was the only time I can recall the head coach being at odds with a move Peterson made. He doesn't just randomly assign the coaches players and ask them to do whatever they can with what he gives them, they're part of the process from the beginning. I can give you any number of moves clearly made at the request of the coaching staff, from the release of Elvis Grbac to the trade for Trent Green to the release of Dan Williams and Chester McGlockton to the signing of Nate Hobgood-Chittick, Ray Crockett, Dexter McCleon, and on and on and on the list goes of guys who were tied to or favorites of the coaching staff.

beer bacon
03-28-2005, 04:56 AM
Roaf was a bargain basement deal when we got him. So is Bell and Knight. Carl Peterson just signed a 4 year extention. Priest Holmes does have a big contract however. So you are not completely retarded.

It's not tough to see however that you are worried about losing Surtain. Your worry is misplaced. If there is a team who's season is in doubt, it is Miami. Keeping Surtain isn't goint to help that.

Didn't he say he was a Colts fan? Where did you get he was a Fins fan?

Anyways. I disagree with a lot of what the OP said. First off, regarding future cap hell. It shouldn't really happen. We will lose a lot of talent on offense, but it will be due to retirements, not cuts, so we should not have the cap problems the Titans have. The problem is that many of our offensive stars will be retiring around the same time, hence why we are running a gambit now to put together a decent defense. We do not want to waste our elite, but aging, offense.

Regarding FA signings. I don't get what the hell you are trying to say here. When you think of Sammy Knight you think of their past performance? Well, duh. I guess I get that, but I think that is pretty common and logical to think of player's past performance and then use that to predict future performance.

You are wrong the two years thing with Bell. You should mean one year. He was out for most of this year with a sports hernia, but the year before he played the whole season and was a Pro Bowl alternate. He has had two injuries that have caused him to miss games. The first was his second season when he missed three or four games. He missed these became he came back from an injury too fast and reinjured himself. That seems to be fixable to me. The other was a weight lifting injury that caused him to miss almost the entire last season. To be exact he was dumb and squatted way too much weight and gave himself a hernia. I don't think many people would argue that Bell is a great LB when healthy. In essence we need to watch him like a hawk to make sure nothing like the above two incidents happen again.

Regarding Knight. He seems fine to me. Over his entire carreer he has averaged 95+ tackles and 4+ INTs a season. In his last two years at Miami he had 190+ tackles and 7 INTs. I don't really see why he won't be effective.

You also seem to be saying from the Denver FA comment that it doesn't matter what FAs we bring in, it still won't (might not?) improve the defense. This seems simplistic. Champ and Lynch, I guess Lynch even though he was not really that good last year, did improve the secondary. They were nullified by a very poor pass rush. The secondary got better, but the pass rush was horrible.

Also, Bell's and Sammy's contracts are actually pretty good. Sammy's is 5 years 11+ mil and I think a 2 million dollar SB. Bell's is cap friendly for the first three years then jumps up to 4.65 mil a year and stays there for the rest of the contract. The way the contract is structured it is evident that when the contract jumps our FO will be looking to restructure. Surtain's contract would be big, but I am hopeful that it will be evened out by the retirement in the coming years of such players as Trent Green, Priest Holmes, and Will Shields. I would say Roaf too, since he will be retiring soon, but I think as another posted stated that his contract is pretty nice already.

Manila-Chief
03-28-2005, 05:05 AM
" CP has next season to prove whether the signing of Bell, Knight, and possibly Surtain was wise, or whether it was completely retarded. History has shown it's the latter rather than the former."

You are the one who is a retard! You come on our site and act like you are an expert. You know nothing.

Last first ... I know of few if any fans on this forum that believes D.V. does all the personnel things. We all know CP is in charge and he has taken lots of heat for his decisions.

Next, as CrazyHorse said ... Kingless just reupped for another 4 years... much to the dismay of many on here. Almost all of us know that the only reason he will leave is if he retires. Hunt will not fire him. Kingless is making Hunt too much money ... and it would take longer than 4 years of reduced income for Hunt to get the message and fire him.

Rebuilding ... been discussed adnasuism on here. We know it is coming.

So, go back to your Colts board and figure out what they need to do.

regald
03-28-2005, 05:25 AM
I'm a Colts fan. When questioning Bell I stated that we were judgeing on his performance two years ago. If last year was 1 year ago, I assumed the year before is 2 years ago, it just depends on how you look at it.

I stated earlier that CP deals with GM functions, ie signing players. I didn't say Vermeil isn't involved.

My main argument is that Free Agency is extremely risky and it's just teams reacting to names. That's not to say that Free Agency is a bad thing, if Sammy Knight plays tremendous for his salary, great, if not, well poop.

I've been following Surtain's rumors for 4 months now. There's a rumor surrounding Law if his salary requests lower, the colts may make an offer. I'm just anxious to see how it all pans out.

The overall message is that it takes great scouting, player personnel, and team management to find the right players for the right system and getting them to perform. If people question CP, especially over his draft picks, you can't expect his free agent signings to yield super stars.

deadbabyseal
03-28-2005, 05:33 AM
You're scared aren't you?

keg in kc
03-28-2005, 05:34 AM
My main argument is that Free Agency is extremely risky and it's just teams reacting to names. I think that's true of fans, but I don't think that's true of teams. They watch an awful lot of film on guys, interview them in great detail and give them intensive medical checks. They're committing millions to these guys, I don't think name-recognition is enough.

And sometimes you're forced into free agency, at least if you want to try to win. We've drafted so poorly that we basically had the choice of starting the same players that haven't produced for the last several years or trying to correct some of our mistakes via FA moves. And beyond adding simple talent, we need something that rookies won't bring right away, and that's leadership and attitude. Things we need now, not things we can wait a few years for guys to develop.

It may blow up the salary cap down the road, but that's the reality of the NFL as it is today. I'll take that if it gives us a chance to be competitive.

regald
03-28-2005, 05:35 AM
I don't know if we play you or not next season.

Surtain is a great CB, so I guess I could be afraid if you got him. You still have Bartee and Warfield though, but I'm sure you couldn't name our starting cornerbacs if I offered you $100.

keg in kc
03-28-2005, 05:37 AM
Nick Harper, Jason David and, uhh, somebody else.

htismaqe
03-28-2005, 05:40 AM
You're obviously a Colts fan or you wouldn't suggest the 2005 season is in question.

As Chiefs fans, we were well aware of the fact that the 2005 season was OVER 3 days before free agency started...

regald
03-28-2005, 05:40 AM
Free Agency is a means of being competitive, but so is the draft. The Redskins are a great example of a team that spends loads of money on free agents, only to have losing seasons and unhappy players. People tend to forget who won the Super Bowl and how they did it. Free Agency is a "feeding festival", there is little value involved. It's a time period marked by frenzy and orchestrated by player's agents that create false competition. This leads to big free agent signings and coincidentally, losing seasons and losing franchises.

Take after us, Go Colts!

No, I'm just kidding. I'd take Surtain in a second, we just can't afford his salary. Some critics question his age and his knees, they say he's at the decline point in his career and it's smart for the Dolphins to unload, but I'm sure you could've said the same about Ty Law 3 years ago.

Edit: Nice Answer on the CB question. As of now, Harper is an unrestricted free agent and he's yet to resign. Jason David is 5'8 and was a 4th round rookie last season. Our starting CB at the start of 04 was Donald Strickland, he was injured after the third game. Right now, we really only have one starting cornerback. Jason David is a playmaker though, 4 picks isn't bad for a rook.

regald
03-28-2005, 05:45 AM
I think some of your defensive stats are skewed from last season. Once you were out of the playoff race, it didn't seem like some players were giving it %110. I'm sure you would've won many more had Vermeil not told Priest to relax the rest of the season. I'm expecting big things from him next year, it seems alot of people are questioning his durability.

htismaqe
03-28-2005, 05:50 AM
Free Agency is a means of being competitive, but so is the draft. The Redskins are a great example of a team that spends loads of money on free agents, only to have losing seasons and unhappy players. People tend to forget who won the Super Bowl and how they did it. Free Agency is a "feeding festival", there is little value involved. It's a time period marked by frenzy and orchestrated by player's agents that create false competition. This leads to big free agent signings and coincidentally, losing seasons and losing franchises.

Take after us, Go Colts!

No, I'm just kidding. I'd take Surtain in a second, we just can't afford his salary. Some critics question his age and his knees, they say he's at the decline point in his career and it's smart for the Dolphins to unload, but I'm sure you could've said the same about Ty Law 3 years ago.

Edit: Nice Answer on the CB question. As of now, Harper is an unrestricted free agent and he's yet to resign. Jason David is 5'8 and was a 4th round rookie last season. Our starting CB at the start of 04 was Donald Strickland, he was injured after the third game. Right now, we really only have one starting cornerback. Jason David is a playmaker though, 4 picks isn't bad for a rook.

Hey everybody, it's Bill Polian!

keg in kc
03-28-2005, 05:59 AM
Free Agency is a means of being competitive, but so is the draft.There's no question about that, but the reason we're forced into free agency is that we've utterly failed to be competitive through the draft (which is clearly the preferred route...).

This will be my 7th season as a Chiefs fan -- I moved here from the east in the summer of '99. In the six drafts I've witnessed we've gotten one pro bowler, Dante Hall and he only made it as a special teamer. Of the 28 players we drafted between 1999 and 2001, 19 are no longer with the squad. Only one, Greg Wesley, is a starting position player, and he may not start in 2005. Of the 43 players we drafted from 1999-2004, only three are starters, Scott Fujita, Ryan Sims and, again, Wesley, although a fourth, Kawika Mitchell has seen time at MLB (probably replaced by Bell, however...).

That's why we're in free agency...

And, actually, we've done much, much better with trades and free agents, as well as bringing in castoffs from other teams and developing them, than we have in the draft. On the offensive side of the ball, Dunn, Green, Holmes, Kennison, Morton, Richardson, Roaf, Waters and Wiegmann all came from outside the Chiefs' organization. None were drafted by Kansas City, nor were they initially signed as rookie free agents by the Chiefs.

regald
03-28-2005, 06:03 AM
What's the deal with the big Chief's / Bronco's rivalry and what do you think about Champ Bailey?

keg in kc
03-28-2005, 06:11 AM
I can't really speak to the rivalry, but I didn't like the Bailey trade at the time. I would have kept Portis and found another answer at corner. But that's only an opinion, I can't say how it's going to turn out in the end.

Gaz
03-28-2005, 06:57 AM
I enjoy reading outside perspectives on the team. Even when I think they are incorrect, it makes me question my own preconceptions.

That being said, I find regald’s analysis a mixed bag.

The first paragraph is pretty good. Accurate, IMO.

The second is correct, but a bit vague. It could be said about any team in the league.

The third is seriously flawed. While I appreciate the input, it is clear that regald is lacking in hard data behind his analysis. Peterson signed his extension, so he is going nowhere. Bell, Knight and Surtain do not have to “perform better than they’ve ever played before.” The just have to perform at a professional level. History has shown that FA is unpredicatable. That is the real issue, despite regald’s attempt to make it seem otherwise.

The fourth paragraph is just plain false, as we have seen over and over again. The furor over the Johnson exception underscores the fact that it is a very rare occasion when the Coach does not get the player he covets. Of course, this misunderstanding makes sense, because there are a lot of Chiefs fans who make the same mistake.

But please do not get me wrong, regald: I appreciate that you took the time to give us your perspective. Welcome aboard.

xoxo~
Gaz
Values the outside view.

AirForceChief
03-28-2005, 07:17 AM
Jason David is a playmaker though, 4 picks isn't bad for a rook.

...especially a rookie midget.

AirForceChief
03-28-2005, 07:27 AM
"And, actually, we've done much, much better with trades and free agents, as well as bringing in castoffs from other teams and developing them, than we have in the draft. On the offensive side of the ball, Dunn, Green, Holmes, Kennison, Morton, Richardson, Roaf, Waters and Wiegmann all came from outside the Chiefs' organization. None were drafted by Kansas City, nor were they initially signed as rookie free agents by the Chiefs."

...and here Keg has nailed the front office quandry for Chiefs Fans. How the hell can we get FA and trades right, or at least not SO WRONG, and utterly fail in the draft. I swear, after the first round I'm am lost on our picks. That guy's from where? Hey, how come ESPN has no film on our pick? Just some still photo...and there not even 100% sure it's him. We have drafted for shite and that's a mystery I can do without.

jspchief
03-28-2005, 07:30 AM
I don't think this Colts fan knows what the hell he's talking about. Almost all of our contracts are stuctured th outs in them, or they are small enough that cuts won't hit the cap that hard. he says that Knight and Bell are signed to "longer type deals" but I know we have an out with Bell.

Sounds to me like a Colts fan trying to justify his half-team standing pat for the second year in a row. Good luck being good enough to beat anyone, and bad enough to lose to anyone. We've been down that road a few times.

PS, we kicked the Colts ass last year. Thanks for having a D that sucked ass bad as ours.

InChiefsHell
03-28-2005, 07:43 AM
I don't think this Colts fan knows what the hell he's talking about. Almost all of our contracts are stuctured th outs in them, or they are small enough that cuts won't hit the cap that hard. he says that Knight and Bell are signed to "longer type deals" but I know we have an out with Bell.

Sounds to me like a Colts fan trying to justify his half-team standing pat for the second year in a row. Good luck being good enough to beat anyone, and bad enough to lose to anyone. We've been down that road a few times.

PS, we kicked the Colts ass last year. Thanks for having a D that sucked ass bad as ours.

In that particular game, our D actually performed pretty well, at least in the first half...

keg in kc
03-28-2005, 07:50 AM
...and here Keg has nailed the front office quandry for Chiefs Fans. How the hell can we get FA and trades right, or at least not SO WRONG, and utterly fail in the draft. I have a theory. And I don't think the issue is so much FA/Trades vs. the draft as it is offense vs. defense.

This is going to sound like I'm beating a dead horse, but I think the problem is/was...*drum roll*...Greg Robinson. I think we've done better with offensive talent acquisition because the offensive staff - Vermeil, Saunders, et al - was simply better at talent evaluation than Robinson, Guinta and the rest. Hence the repeated misses on defensive players, primairly draft picks, but their FAs have missed badly, too (although Barber was more injury than play I think).

We'll see if Cunningham's presence changes that.

I think another issue we could have is that Vermeil and Peterson may rely too much on their own opinions and not enough on that of the Chiefs scouting department. The rumor is that our scouting staff is very highly thought of around the league, but that they may not have the voice they should have in the warroom, particularly on the first day. And that seems feasible to me because I've heard Chuck Cook interviewed a number of times over the years, and our draft picks almost never involve players he talks about. Now, maybe that's media camaflage. Or maybe it's not...

AirForceChief
03-28-2005, 08:20 AM
I have a theory. And I don't think the issue is so much FA/Trades vs. the draft as it is offense vs. defense.

This is going to sound like I'm beating a dead horse, but I think the problem is/was...*drum roll*...Greg Robinson. I think we've done better with offensive talent acquisition because the offensive staff - Vermeil, Saunders, et al - was simply better at talent evaluation than Robinson, Guinta and the rest. Hence the repeated misses on defensive players, primairly draft picks, but their FAs have missed badly, too (although Barber was more injury than play I think).

We'll see if Cunningham's presence changes that.

I think another issue we could have is that Vermeil and Peterson may rely too much on their own opinions and not enough on that of the Chiefs scouting department. The rumor is that our scouting staff is very highly thought of around the league, but that they may not have the voice they should have in the warroom, particularly on the first day. And that seems feasible to me because I've heard Chuck Cook interviewed a number of times over the years, and our draft picks almost never involve players he talks about. Now, maybe that's media camaflage. Or maybe it's not...

Keg,

I'd feel a lot better about this theory if we could point to a nice group of D players drafted under Cunningham while he was head coach or DC in his previous stays...As best I can recall, w/o research, we drafted Woods, Wesley, and Edwards under his watch. All of which I think were worthy draft choices. Am I missing some?

Anbody else got a take on our scouting department? I've often thought they 1) must suck; or 2) they are ignored by CP.

keg in kc
03-28-2005, 08:27 AM
Keg,

I'd feel a lot better about this theory if we could point to a nice group of D players drafted under Cunningham while he was head coach or DC in his previous stays...As best I can recall, w/o research, we drafted Woods, Wesley, and Edwards under his watch. All of which I think were worthy draft choices. Am I missing some?My memory only goes back as far as '99, so I can't talk about when he was DC.

Stills has been a decent pick, although you'd normally want more out of a 3rd rounder. Then again, with us, we probably shouldn't complain about any production.

Larry Atkins was a 'tweener who never found a home.

William Bartee and Patrick Dennis, well, 'nuff said there...

Greg Wesley.

In any case, I'm not predicting that he'll do any better, I'm saying he'll have to for the defense to improve. Bell, Knight and whatever corner we end up with must perform. Junior Siavii, Key Fox and whoever we draft this year must develop into solid players. Or else we'll see the last three years repeated. What I'm saying is Robinson was a big part of the evaluation problems, and if Cunningham and his staff's evaluation (the fact that the staff is virtually the same is frightening....) isn't any better, we'll see the same sort of results.

htismaqe
03-28-2005, 08:30 AM
I think Lionel Dalton is a perfect example.

No, he's not stellar but we got something out of a guy that was essentially nothing.

Gunther got similar results out of Wayne Simmons, Pellom McDaniels, and others.

So, hopefully he can do the same with Knight and Bell.

CrazyHorse
03-28-2005, 08:41 AM
I don't think this Colts fan knows what the hell he's talking about. Almost all of our contracts are stuctured th outs in them, or they are small enough that cuts won't hit the cap that hard. he says that Knight and Bell are signed to "longer type deals" but I know we have an out with Bell.

Sounds to me like a Colts fan trying to justify his half-team standing pat for the second year in a row. Good luck being good enough to beat anyone, and bad enough to lose to anyone. We've been down that road a few times.

PS, we kicked the Colts ass last year. Thanks for having a D that sucked ass bad as ours.

The issue with talent from the draft is that our scouting department is putting the wrong talent in front of Peterson and the coaches.

AirForceChief
03-28-2005, 08:43 AM
I think Lionel Dalton is a perfect example.

No, he's not stellar but we got something out of a guy that was essentially nothing.

Gunther got similar results out of Wayne Simmons, Pellom McDaniels, and others.

So, hopefully he can do the same with Knight and Bell.

I already expect high performance for high pay from Knight and Bell. Cunningham will know how to employ them, he won't need to motivate or fine tune them. It's the Fox's, Siavaii's and Ryan's of the team that Cunningham is going to have to get results from. There's no need to push a Knight or Bell, just provide an environment of healthy competition and an opportunity to win.

ROYC75
03-28-2005, 08:55 AM
Chief's 2005 season in question ? " NO SHIT ? "

Most of us knew this in 1993......... :rolleyes:

whoman69
03-28-2005, 11:27 AM
The cap will not be a problem as it was for the Titans. We already know who will be canned on June 1 (Morton, McCleon, et al) and those players who are not playing up to their potential will be cut at that time to open cap room.